shdemidemi:

Paul spoke about the immoral man that slept with his father's wife-
1 cor 5
In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.[b]


All the devil can do is to destroy the flesh of this man, no matter what he has done. If he has the Spirit of God in him, that is if he is a believer his spirit will be saved.

Candour:

@the bolded is the caveat. I hope he's a believer indeed and if he is, as a shepherd of flock who look up to him, he should be honest enough to come out clean to his members before some babe in Christ will assume it's ok to indulge in such.

It's well.

P/S: Image123, my apologies for derailing your thread pls. God bless you

Can I ask what the two of you are implying from that verse. "Deliver his soul to the devil". Quite interested in your interpretation of that.

shdemidemi:

How rude can you be without substance to back your self acclaimed understanding! Show me where Peter tells you how to be saved by believing Christ died, he was buried and he resurrected. If you can't find it just be quiet and wallow in ignorance.

peter preached salvation by faith in 1 pt 1:5,8 acts 15:9, 11:43. Did you miss those passages?

debosky:

Bro - can you highlight what aspect of Image's post details his view on justification? I'd like examine it in some detail as well.

read his previous post, terms like initial justification will appear. Reformers like calvin said once a person is justified he will remain so 4ever. Initial justification is heresy in reformed circles. That is just 1 example

shdemidemi: Legalism at its peak! What difference does it make if one ask questions since you have refused to defend your summations with answers. you have taken a profound position based on preconceived understanding.

i imagined u will say this, image remember what i told you. Are u sure u want to hold this veiw

demi, debo, Ub and co, pardon me i have you in mind and will still reply your queries. Thanks.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

The epistle to the Romans is very frank and straight. This verse tells us that IF God's Spirit dwells in us(a person), we are not in the flesh. It means that there is no sitting on the fence. It's akin to saying that you cannot serve God and mammon(material wealth), you are either hot or cold. You are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, IF the Spirit of God is in you.You are not in the Spirit but in the flesh, if the Spirit of God is not in you. Now it is possible for the Spirit of God to leave a person. The Spirit of God is not chained to us. Evil spirits try to possess a person against his/her will but the Spirit of God is gentle and can be grieved. Remember the Spirit of God that left King Saul. Remember David's prayer in the Psalms that God should not take His holy spirit from him. If we walk in the Spirit, we will not be in the flesh. The works of the flesh and the fruits of the spirit are outlined in the epistle to the Galatians. That passage is a clear indicator to us as individuals, showing us at every point in time, whether we are in the flesh or in the Spirit.
Gala 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
if we are claiming to be living and alive in the spirit, those who are claiming to be spiritual, to be christians, then let us walk in the Spirit. if the Spirit of God is truly in you, then you will not be walking in the flesh. if you are walking in the flesh, it is a tell sign that the Spirit has departed. Jesus said to ABIDE in Him, and He in us. Let us take heed, so that we do not depart from God (whether Father, or Jesus or the Holy Spirit).
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
This warning is important because IF ANY MAN, anywhere and anytime have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His. Whatever the name, title, position or experience. NOW If ANY MAN have not the Spirit of Christ, He is none of His. Little wonder, there will be a "Depart from me, I do not know you" proclamation.
One more salient point is that the Spirit of God is the Spirit of Christ.

Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

If Christ is in you, the(a) proof is that your body is dead and your spirit is alive. If Christ is in you, that is if you are a believer, if you are born again, saved, washed by the blood of the Lamb. Greater is He that is in you. If Christ is in you, the body is dead. You are dead,the I is no more struggling but crucified. You are no more your own, but have become a servant and prisoner of Christ. You have GIVEN your life TO Christ. If you have truly GIVEN it, then it is no more yours.
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Notice the perspective and context. It is like looking at a thing from different angles and heights, different camera viewpoints. He the writer has earlier talked about how we were dead in sin, and we also know how that we are in Christ(if any man be IN Christ, he is a new creature). Now, we see a perspective of how we are dead in Christ, and yet Christ is IN us. If Christ be IN YOU, the body is dead because of sin. The body needs to die, to be put under so that it will not sin, or be allured and empowered to sin. Many people talk about how God is not interested in their body, implying that they can do anything with it and Christ is still in them. No, If Christ be in you, the body is dead/deadened because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. Your spirit is alive because of righteousness. If you ar not righteous, your spirit dies, that is, it is cut off/separated from God and His fellowship.

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

God is the Him that raised up Jesus. If the Spirit of God DWELL in you, God will quicken your body by His Spirit that DWELLS in you. note the emphasis/repetition on 'dwell'. The Spirit of God needs to dwell, have an abode, house/home, abiding presence with and in you. If this is the case, God will quicken you by His Spirit.His Spirit will influence from your Spirit to your body. God is a complete and perfect God. he is interested in our bodies, as they are His temple. He is not only intersted in taking care of the spiritual, He also wants to touch our body, which you have surrendered to Him, remove every deadness, sickness, and pain, and glorify you.

Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Therefore, because of the Spirit of God, because of Christ, and of God,and for all that they have done for you/us, we are debtors. We have a debt/responsibility to the Spirit, to mortify the deeds of the body. We are not to live after the flesh. If we live after the flesh, we will die. Paul was addressing believers, telling them that IF they lived after the flesh, they will die. Quite reminiscent of God's charge to Adam and Eve. Living after the flesh is a self life, a selfish life, an ego centred life, wanting to please yourself, and to do your own will, to follow your own mind. If you live after the flesh, you will die, be not deceived. God is not mocked. We are to mortify the deeds of the body through the Spirit. By the help of the Spirit, and by purpose of heart. Like Daniel purposed in his heart not to defile himself.
Act 11:23 Who, when he came, and had seen the grace of God, was glad, and exhorted them all, that with purpose of heart they would cleave unto the Lord.
1Co 9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
Mortify the deeds of the body by being filled with the Spirit. kill and destroy the deeds of the body.

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

The leading of the Spirit of God is the birthright of EVERY child of God. AS MANY. As many as have received Him. The Holy Spirit's ministry is to teach you. He was sent to guide you. You have a right to be guided by the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost guides you to mortify the deeds of the flesh/body. he shows you how. As we walk with God's Spirit, He guides us if we pay close attention. That is why it appears many times that we are all in different classes/cadres of His guidance. As He is leading you to mortify the deeds of the body, he may tell you things that He did not tell everybody. He might say don't go to that place, or stop using this thing, or don't do so and so thing again. Meanwhile He hasn't told the other fellow, or maybe He is telling but the fellow cannot/does not hear, or has not heard. So you are not exactly measuring your life and obedience by but others are doing it. As many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons and of course daughters of God.

Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

The Spirit of God given us is a Spirit of boldness and power. Boldness is not necessarily arrogance. The Spirit of God empowers us and makes us bold to obey God. It takes boldness to obey God. Obeying God is not always common sense or logical, neither is it always popular. But God wants us to obey Him, and serve Him without fear, in holiness and in righteousness, EVERY day. We have the Holy Spirit. We have the Spirit of boldness. We are not to be afraid again. Believers should not be afraid of satan, or sickness, or humans, or death. Its not talking about being foolhardy or disrespectful, or like the UNJUST judge in Jesus' parable, who regarded no man. We are no more under any bondage but are now free to obey God. God is not afraid, and we have become His children. We have received the Spirit of adoption, and we can now call God our Father. Like Jesus Christ, who in His earthly ministry usually referred to God as Father, we now have the same relationship by the Spirit of adoption. We are children of God. And real children of God cry Abba, Father. This implies prayer, communing with God. Children of God are not prayerless.

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

The Spirit, our spirit. Two spirits working and walking together. Notice that the Spirit is not just bearing witness to our spirit, but He is bearing witness WITH our spirits, that we are the children of God. Being a child of God involves a personal assurance of salvation, of adoption, of redemption. You need to know that you know that you know that you are a child of God. And not just for you to know, but for the Spirit of God to also bear witness. The Spirit of God settles it in you and confirms it in you that you are a child of God. Notice that it is continuous. The Spirit bears, it is not just that He bore witness last week or last year or five years ago. Is He still bearing witness that you are a child of God. Is your own spirit still bearing witness? Are you examining yourself whether you are in the faith?
2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
It is not enough to have some dead interesting story of how you became a child of God. NOW, are we the sons of God, NOW. The Spirit bearS witness WITH our spirit, that we are the children of God. Sons and daughters of God.
(CEV) God's Spirit makes us sure that we are his children.
Be very sure, be very sure, your anchor holdS, and gripS the Solid Rock.

shdemidemi:

What does it mean to be a carnal Christian?

A Christian that lacks the understanding of God's word. It is the very opposite of a mature spiritual Christian.

The Greek word used here was 'sarkikos'. Which signifies having the nature of the flesh. The Corinthian saints were making no progress but they were no anti-spiritual,

'Carnal' can also mean 'sarkinos' 'consisting of flesh'

On the other hand, being led by the Spirit is contrasted to being led by the flesh (the unregenerated state of man). You cannot be led by two masters, can you?

I would also like to learn from you if you are convinced that the 'Holy Spirit' would be there comforting, teaching and all during that great tribulation in the book of Revelation.

A carnal person is a person who is walking in the flesh. Compare these two passages.
1Co 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

listed among the works of the flesh and as a description for the carnal are envy, strife and division.

debosky:

I agree with this, but would add the following: The instructions of Peter and Paul are not laws in the same sense as the instructions given to Moses - these latter instructions should be the natural by-product of our justification and righteousness by faith.

To put it differently, they are the evidence or outward confirmation of what has happened inside. I can liken it to a pregnant woman - the enlarged abdomen is the natural by product of what is going on inside. If the pregnancy is in its early stages (i.e. the baby Christian still walking in the flesh) then the pregnant woman looks no different from the non-pregnant one, but as the embryo grows into a foetus, the outward signs begin to show.

i'm in agreement with this. The 'laws' of moses would also have been 'instructions' but for the covenant. The covenant/agreement is what makes/made all the difference. The obedience to the instruction follows justification in the New Covenant. justification was meant to follow obedience to the 'instructions' in the Old Covenant. So, Moses's own seemed more critical to the salvation and acceptance of the people. But Paul's and Jesus' or whoever's now are at the background, and more of a fruit of being accepted and saved.
1Th 4:1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
1Th 4:2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
This believers had received somethings on HOW TO WALK, and HOW TO PLEASE God. They had been given some COMMANDMENTS.

Act 2:42 And they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
1Co 11:2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.
2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
Evidently, the early believers were being told to do some things, they were also being taught to observe ALL things that Jesus had taught(Matthew 28v20), knowing that the book of Luke, for instance, contains some of all that Jesus did and taught. These 'instructions' most of which are harder to keep than the Old Testament 'commandments', are not to justify us before God or save us. It is faith in Christ that justifies us.

Ubenedictus: i imagined u will say this, image remember what i told you. Are u sure u want to hold this veiw

Act 13:15 And after the reading of the law and the prophets the rulers of the synagogue sent unto them, saying, Ye men and brethren, if ye have any word of exhortation for the people, say on.

Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

If we are children of God, the implication is that we are heirs of God. That is joint heirs WITH Christ. We receive what Christ receives.
1Jo 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
Rev 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honor, and glory, and blessing.

He, Christ is worthy. We just dey to enjoy with Him. And as many as have the faith and grace, we can actually TASTE of these in this life. Some believers have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come. They have tasted power, riches, wisdom, strength, honor, glory, and blessing in a divinely given way. Some are content however to take whatever comes their way, and wait to enjoy 'when we get to the sweet by and by'. Some would even argue and stumble against strength and health, riches and prosperity, blessing and intellectual giftings and advancements, power and miracles for the believer or church. But if we are children, we are heirs of God. And we must also be willing to suffer with Him.

Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

Paul puts suffering and glory on a scale, he has calculated and estimated it. The sufferings are insignificant when compared to the glory which shall be revealed. Many christians today only look at the suffering. Let us follow Paul, He lookked at the suffering and the glory. God has not guaranteed us a lifetime without suffering. In this life, there is tribulation and suffering in one form or the other. There is disappointment, loss of property or of loved one, there is sickness, there are challenges, there is poverty and tragedy. The enjoyment of kingdom blessings may have to be by 'violence'. But in the future, when Jesus comes, glory is certain, guaranteed, sure. Paul suffered hunger, imprisonment, shipwreck etc for instance. We may suffer in different ways but we need to look ahead and look, for the joy and glory set before us. We need to endure to the end.

Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

All of creature or creation is waiting for Jesus' return. That is the ultimate fulfillment of the manifestation of the children and sons of God. That's what the sun, moon, stars are waiting for. that is why the sun is still rising and going down. That is what the mountains and the seas are waiting for. And the trees and the animals. All of creation/creature waits. Man the crown of creation should also be set in eager expectation.

Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

All of creation, the sun, moon, stars, rivers, mountains, planets, animals, birds, plants, trees, and of course man are subject to vanity. they have been made subject by God because of man. It is the same God that has subjected creation in hope.

Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

This is the chief hope. We are hoping for deliverance, from corruption into glorious freedom. Every sinner, nay, every man needs to find that hope.

Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

We, believers have the firstfruits of the Spirit. Where the Spirit is, there is liberty. Believers have some form of freedom, though we still await the fullnesss of the manifestation that will be revealed in us in glory by the coming of Jesus Christ.

Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

We are saved by hope. Hmmm, they are all intertwined. Faith, grace, mercy, love, hope. That is why a believer continues to add to his faith. Have hope, have love, have faith etc. It's not all love or all holiness. Hope is important, even for eternity. If we have hope only in this life, we are of all men most miserable. How much more if we do not have hope in this life? Where there is life, there should be hope, this is what makes a living dog better than a dead lion. We all need hope. Paul told the Corinthians, NOW remaineth hope, faith and charity. Hope is critical to lifein the NOW. People without hope commit suicide, they give up,they live unfulfilled lives. Christ is our hope, of glory. Hope is not seen or visible. Hope is closely linked to faith and love and patience. We need to patiently hope. Hope helps our infirmities.

Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

We may have feebleness, disease, or weaknesses. It is hope in us, with patience that will see us through the hard times. God the Spirit ALSO helps our weaknesses, diseases and infirmities. He was sent to help us. One of His names is Helper/Comforter. We often need help, but we forget our Helper. He wants to help us all the way, when we feel strong and when we feel weak. Everytime.

Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Who is He that searcheth the hearts? God.
Jer 17:10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
So, God knows the mind of the Spirit. The point here is that the Holy Spirit is a personality with a mind. He is not mindless like fire or water or electicity. He has a mind. The Father God has a mind, the Spirit God has a mind, so also the Son God has a mind.
Rom 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counselor?
1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
The Holy Spirit prays for us according to the will of God. He prays for the saints BTW, i'm not sure about others.

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

We come to very very very, veeery verrrry and veryyyy important and central point in the whole of the scriptures, the epistle and the chapter. This is central both in physical location and importance to life. For the umpteenth time, i have to say knowledge is very important and is power, and education remains the best legacy. Jesus said that you will KNOW the truth, and the truth will make you free. It is the KNOWLEDGE of the truth that makes you free. This verse like many others in the epistle talks about what "we" know, what the christian believer ought to know. Christians are supposed to grow in knowledge, especially the knowledge of God. We are actually expected to cast down every thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God.
So we KNOW that ALL THINGS work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. ALL THINGS, whatever it may be. If we could actually believe that, there will no more anxiety and worries, there will be no retaliation or anger, because everything is working together for our good. The delay and the progress, the tragedy and the testimony, the casting down caused by failures and disappointments and the lifting up, all things work together for good. To understand this, to know this, to believe this, it will literally make you free. That God can actually turn your tests to testimonies, and your pains to gains, your weakness to strength and your loss to cause of joy. In the words of a contemporary singer, let me bring it down a bit lower,
"This is the stuff that drives me crazy,
This is the stuff that's getting to me lately,
In the middle of my little mess, I forget how big I'm blessed,
This is the stuff that gets under my skin,
But I've gotta trust, You(God) know exactly what You're doing.
Might not be what I would choose, But this is the stuff You use".
This passage is not fate, neither is it encouraging fate teaching, that whatever will be will be. No, far from it. It is teaching that God has a plan for our lives, and that as His children, His great plan will ultimately be fulfilled in our lives. We are like the planets with an orbit, like a graph with a projection. Whatever the tiny little details of the planet, the ultimate end is that it will go on its orbit. Earth will not go and collide with Mars, neither will the sun decide not to rise tomorrow. Our graph line has a starting point A and an end point B. Human life is similar for those that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. The only difference is that we have a will/free will. We can decide, unlike the planets or the sun. The planets and stars obey God's will perfectly. So perfectly that astrologers can use them to measure precision in time. But humans, even believers do not obey God's will so perfectly. There is a lot of straying and wasting. We study courses we may not need or use, we make wrong friends and choices in career, marriage, child training etc. We enter into many unnecessary problems, challenges and delays. But ultimately, for them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose, there is a point B that we will arrive at. Our graph line might not be that straight, might be curved, jagged, and even quite ugly. Our life's planet might make several head on collisions, might have been severely beaten up, broken, and sorrowful, with loss of many things, but if we truly love God. All things will work together for our good.
For instance, God might want and will for you to be in Lagos, but you are somewhere else. And then everything is quite slow and hard, without lubrication. And you do not exactly feel or have that fulfilment and fullness of joy and purpose, and perhaps you've lost ground, or home, or family. Ultimately God still provides a plan and orbit for you. He still turns the wilderness into pleasant land, and at the end you get to have lived as His child and to live with Him eternally. Or maybe, God's plan was for you to be a little toughened and tried, to come out stronger and refined, and shining like diamond. And then maybe He has placed tests and allowed/permitted satan to heat you up. But you somehow strayed off that path, and everything is so nice and fast and 'favoured', but you didn't get to be the shining diamond that God wanted, for you to be a shining light to many discouraged for now, and for many years to come. Yet ultimately, you get to have lived as His child and to live with Him eternally.
But as children of God, our desire should be to please Him in all things, to fulfill His will and finish our course, to know His purpose for calling us, to realise that we are not called to live for ourselves but to live according to His purposes and plans. Our goal should be to please Him and to love Him. All things will work together for our good.

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

The point to note here is that God predestined those that He foreknew. The big question then is who did God not foreknow? God knows everybody. The Proverbs tell us that the clouds cannot drop dew without His knowledge. He knows the birds and the animals. He has every single detail to the number of hair on our head. So, actually, what is being said in this verse is that God had predestined everybody to be conformed to the image of His Son. But not everybody follows that. Not everybody does the will of God. We all have our own self will and free will, we can all make decisions. Look at the Israelites for instance, this same epistle says that God foreknew them.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the Scripture saith of Elijah? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
But whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate. He foreknew the Israelites and predestinated them, but it is an open secret that the Israelites denied and rejected and crucified the Son. They didn't conform at all to the image of the Son. Till today, they are not conforming, they do not believe in the Lordship or Saviour abilities of Jesus Christ.
Where then did the church(es) get the doctrine of predestination? Certainly, not from this passage, verse or epistle. The teaching that you will go to heaven whether you like it or not, if God has written your name somewhere, is not found here. god has never predestined anybody to go to heaven or hell. God wants us to be conformed to the image of His Son.
Heb 1:1 God who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Luk 9:35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.
God wants us to be like Jesus, to be followers of Jesus, christ like.

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Predestination is simply having a destination, a destiny. It's like an addressed letter or a transport ticket. A letter with an address that we can read its destination. This is how God pre-destined us, when He made us. He made us with a purpose. he made us to glorify Him, to be conformed to the image of His Son. He made every human being to praise Him. We were born to praise, that our lights should so shine.
Isa 43:21 This people have I formed for myself; they shall show forth my praise.
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light:
Predestinated to the praise of the glory of his grace. That's what we were all predestinated to do. Nobody was predestinated to perish or to spend eternity in the lake of fire, or to never repent. All those teachings are not found in the Bible. When the Bible talks predestination, its not even talking about these things that divide the church into factions. We are all addressed. And like every addressed letter, we can be lost in transit, as it were. Someone can change the address or change the envelope altogether. The letter itself might be damaged, or in an accident or fire. The point is, that the letter is predestined to reach place Q does not guarantee that it will reach point Q. A lot still has to be done to ensure that the letter gets to its right destination.
Or that you have a flight ticket or bus ticket that says you are going to Abuja does not guarantee your arrival at Abuja. Anything can happen at the airport and even during the travel/trip. You might not even go to the airport or might miss the bus or train in the first place. But you have a ticket, you even paid personally in your own case. Your name was there, predestined to go to Abuja. Whom he did predestinate, them he also called. Remember, many are called but few are chosen. He has called us all. The invitation "Come unto me, all ye that labour", is our call.
Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
What other call does anyone want or is waiting for more than that. Jesus is calling, the church is calling, the Spirit of God is calling and nudging and knocking at the door.

And whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Of course, you realise by now (especially if ou have being following/reading that this is not just a one step thing. The called need to respond with faith, that justifies. And ultimately, the justified is glorified.

Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

The apostle in this writing begins again to write in a question and answer format. A series of sort of rhetorical questions follow. It is not that one Roman was asking the writer question and then the writer was replying. What shall we say to these things? What is our response to these things? Are we to respond at all, or just sit back in fate, that whatever happens will happen, and that everything will work for our good? Not at all. I have said, ye are gods. we can actually influence things one way or the other(though we should cautiously influence according to God's will). You don't have to remain sick, or childless, or jobless, or without the gifts and fruits of the Spirit. That disaster or loss or tragedy does not have to happen. That situation does not have to continue. Your life without victory in Jesus does not have to remain so. You do not have to continue to rise and fall into sin, or let sin have dominion over you. If God is with you, you have a world of possibilities at your feet.

Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

God gave you His Son. He gave His only begotten Son. He forsook Him and allowed Him to be crucified just for you and me. Would He not give you all things? Yes He will.

Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Who will accuse, condemn or charge God's children? Such a person must be kidding, right? helping satan with his job description. It is satanic to be an accuser of the brethren. Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? ANY THING. We should not waste our time and lives in accusing or condemning people, especially children of God. It is God that justifieth, not you.
Who is he that condemns? Who has the right, the job and authority to condemn? The answer is right there in the passage. It says it is Christ.
Joh 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Act 10:42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.

We are COMMANDED to preach and to testify, not commanded to judge or condemn. There is actually a verse or two that even says not to judge/condemn!
One more point is that Christ makes intercession for us. We have seen earlier in the chapter that the Holy Spirit also makes intercession for us. We should also be christlike in making intercession for others, instead of condemning and exposing them. Time will come when Christ will stop intercession and start judgement. Let us repent.

Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or unclothedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

You see that it is not all fate. Some things are poised to separate us from the love of God, so that all things do not work for good. But we shall say to these things, "We are persuaded, more than conquerors". If tribulation comes, pain or suffering in any form, we would not begin to doubt if God exists, or open threads on social network telling about how God has failed us. A child of God can be distressed, he can face famine and poverty. He can be exposed to lack, even of basics like clothing, food and shelter. There may actually be unclothedness, famine, peril, job loss, demotion etc. These are not reasons to quit, or backslide, or be separated from loving God. Sword, death, accidents, tragedy, earthquakes and floods should not separate us from the love of Christ.

Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

The answer is NO, NAY. Tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or unclothedness, or peril, or sword, bombings etc will not separate us. IN ALL THESE THINGS, we are not complaining or backsliding or drawing back. In all these things, we are more than conquerors. MORE THAN conquerors. This is only achievable by the help and grace of God/Christ that loves us. It is not to be achieved by personal effort or yoga, or psychology or stoicism, or teeth gritting or fist clenching activities. It is best achieved, nay, only achieved through Him that loved us. i can do all things through Christ who strengthens me, and God is faithful who will not allow you to be tempted above that you are able.

Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

i am persuaded. What about you? Paul was persuaded. He was sure, he was convinced, he was purposed, that nothing will separate him from the same love. It is the same love that God had for Paul and the Romans that God has for us. We need to be persuaded that nothing will be able to separate us from that love. In this second part, Paul mentions not only tragedies and negatives but also positives. It is not only bad news or things that can make us lose our love for God. Good things, even answers to prayer can separate us from God's love. Marriage, travel abroad, promotion, children, property can separate us from the love of God. Someone's death or life can be used to separate us. Seeing the unrighteous prosper and live long life can tempt us to be separated. Your righteous model dies of cancer, while your chain fornicating and chain smoking relative is perfectly okay, living long and even getting a political position or award. A revelation or vision of an angel may be used to separate us from the love of God. Someone has seen an angel, and then he thinks he is now answerable to no one, gathers people from all over and will no more listen to the Word of God. Angel has appeared to him really, he sees visions, has connections and power. These things should not separate us from God. No principality, no new government, no new gadget or device, things to come and things present, no height attained, or depth to which we have fallen should separate us. No creature from anywhere, in a dream or in reality, no social media, no admission or course of study, no sport or event, no news, nothing. i am persuaded that nothing shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. We need to be grounded and founded on the Rock, holding the Head, haven done ALL to stand, so that we can testify "But none of these things move me".

Where's sdemi? Being awhile sincei read him.

God bless you Image as you continue to share from that you have received and learned.

TBH, I still struggle with the pre-destination aspect. Not that I believe that we don't have a role to play i.e. accepting God's salvation by faith is necessary regardless of what is pre-destined, but that it does seem to involve more than that.

For example, Jesus says in his prayer in John: I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world.

Also in John 6:44 44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Does it imply that only those who are drawn by the Father can come to accept salvation, i.e. not everybody is drawn?

But then later on Jesus did say: Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. Which implies that the decisive aspect is he who believes, not being drawn alone per se - and that clearly signifies our part to play.

Also, Romans 9 seems to imply certain things are decided without our input as the case of Esau and Jacob:

8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring. 9 For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”[c]

10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[d] 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”[e]

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

This also appears to indicate that some will have mercy, while others won't. Further in the same passage, Paul says this:

18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

18 So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen.

19 Well then, you might say, “Why does God blame people for not responding? Haven’t they simply done what he makes them do?”

20 No, don’t say that. Who are you, a mere human being, to argue with God? Should the thing that was created say to the one who created it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 When a potter makes jars out of clay, doesn’t he have a right to use the same lump of clay to make one jar for decoration and another to throw garbage into? 22 In the same way, even though God has the right to show his anger and his power, he is very patient with those on whom his anger falls, [i]who are destined for destruction. 23 He does this to make the riches of his glory shine even brighter on those to whom he shows mercy, who were prepared in advance for glory. 24 And we are among those whom he selected, both from the Jews and from the Gentiles.[/i] (NLT)

Verse 18 makes it clear that there is a division - some are hardened and some receive mercy. That to me is an indication of predestination, but is that 'ultimate' predestination or just momentary regarding a specific instance/situation? I do not know.

However, the latter verses say to the Christian: who are you to question this? My take from the following verses is thus: those who are reading this are already saved, so the question is immaterial - in your own case you have been called AND you've accepted, leave the called/not called status of those that are left to God. But it does state some are destined for destruction, and that others were prepared in advance for glory.

Subsequent chapters go on to hit the nail on the head for me: go out and teach and preach. Don't dwell on who is predestined or not, just preach! Regardless of whether they have been called or not, you will have done your part.

I am still uncertain on the whole subject, but I ultimately consider it a secondary issue for a Christian.

Our role is to teach and let people hear the message. It is God's role to show mercy on whom he chooses to show mercy on and to draw men to Jesus, and it is the individual's to accept or reject.

debosky: God bless you Image as you continue to share from that you have received and learned.

TBH, I still struggle with the pre-destination aspect. Not that I believe that we don't have a role to play i.e. accepting God's salvation by faith is necessary regardless of what is pre-destined, but that it does seem to involve more than that.

For example, Jesus says in his prayer in John: I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world.

Also in John 6:44 44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Does it imply that only those who are drawn by the Father can come to accept salvation, i.e. not everybody is drawn?

But then later on Jesus did say: Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. Which implies that the decisive aspect is he who believes, not being drawn alone per se - and that clearly signifies our part to play.

Also, Romans 9 seems to imply certain things are decided without our input as the case of Esau and Jacob:

8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring. 9 For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”[c]

10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[d] 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”[e]

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

This also appears to indicate that some will have mercy, while others won't. Further in the same passage, Paul says this:

18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

18 So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen.

19 Well then, you might say, “Why does God blame people for not responding? Haven’t they simply done what he makes them do?”

20 No, don’t say that. Who are you, a mere human being, to argue with God? Should the thing that was created say to the one who created it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 When a potter makes jars out of clay, doesn’t he have a right to use the same lump of clay to make one jar for decoration and another to throw garbage into? 22 In the same way, even though God has the right to show his anger and his power, he is very patient with those on whom his anger falls, [i]who are destined for destruction. 23 He does this to make the riches of his glory shine even brighter on those to whom he shows mercy, who were prepared in advance for glory. 24 And we are among those whom he selected, both from the Jews and from the Gentiles.[/i] (NLT)

Verse 18 makes it clear that there is a division - some are hardened and some receive mercy. That to me is an indication of predestination, but is that 'ultimate' predestination or just momentary regarding a specific instance/situation? I do not know.

However, the latter verses say to the Christian: who are you to question this? My take from the following verses is thus: those who are reading this are already saved, so the question is immaterial - in your own case you have been called AND you've accepted, leave the called/not called status of those that are left to God. But it does state some are destined for destruction, and that others were prepared in advance for glory.

Subsequent chapters go on to hit the nail on the head for me: go out and teach and preach. Don't dwell on who is predestined or not, just preach! Regardless of whether they have been called or not, you will have done your part.

I am still uncertain on the whole subject, but I ultimately consider it a secondary issue for a Christian.

Our role is to teach and let people hear the message. It is God's role to show mercy on whom he chooses to show mercy on and to draw men to Jesus, and it is the individual's to accept or reject.

i think you are confusing predestination with predetermination

debosky: God bless you Image as you continue to share from that you have received and learned.

TBH, I still struggle with the pre-destination aspect. Not that I believe that we don't have a role to play i.e. accepting God's salvation by faith is necessary regardless of what is pre-destined, but that it does seem to involve more than that.

For example, Jesus says in his prayer in John: I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world.

Also in John 6:44 44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Does it imply that only those who are drawn by the Father can come to accept salvation, i.e. not everybody is drawn?

But then later on Jesus did say: Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. Which implies that the decisive aspect is he who believes, not being drawn alone per se - and that clearly signifies our part to play.

Also, Romans 9 seems to imply certain things are decided without our input as the case of Esau and Jacob:

8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring. 9 For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”[c]

10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[d] 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”[e]

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

This also appears to indicate that some will have mercy, while others won't. Further in the same passage, Paul says this:

18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

18 So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen.

19 Well then, you might say, “Why does God blame people for not responding? Haven’t they simply done what he makes them do?”

20 No, don’t say that. Who are you, a mere human being, to argue with God? Should the thing that was created say to the one who created it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 When a potter makes jars out of clay, doesn’t he have a right to use the same lump of clay to make one jar for decoration and another to throw garbage into? 22 In the same way, even though God has the right to show his anger and his power, he is very patient with those on whom his anger falls, [i]who are destined for destruction. 23 He does this to make the riches of his glory shine even brighter on those to whom he shows mercy, who were prepared in advance for glory. 24 And we are among those whom he selected, both from the Jews and from the Gentiles.[/i] (NLT)

Verse 18 makes it clear that there is a division - some are hardened and some receive mercy. That to me is an indication of predestination, but is that 'ultimate' predestination or just momentary regarding a specific instance/situation? I do not know.

However, the latter verses say to the Christian: who are you to question this? My take from the following verses is thus: those who are reading this are already saved, so the question is immaterial - in your own case you have been called AND you've accepted, leave the called/not called status of those that are left to God. But it does state some are destined for destruction, and that others were prepared in advance for glory.

Subsequent chapters go on to hit the nail on the head for me: go out and teach and preach. Don't dwell on who is predestined or not, just preach! Regardless of whether they have been called or not, you will have done your part.

I am still uncertain on the whole subject, but I ultimately consider it a secondary issue for a Christian.

Our role is to teach and let people hear the message. It is God's role to show mercy on whom he chooses to show mercy on and to draw men to Jesus, and it is the individual's to accept or reject.

i hope to post the points on romans9 soon. Hopefully, it should settle this, thanks.

Rom 9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

Paul says the truth IN Christ. It is not enough to say the truth, but we should learn to say the truth in Christ. Saying the truth in Christ is the real form of truth as christ Himself is the Truth personified. Something might be true about your neighbour, your friend, your spouse, an organisation or government, but believers should learn to remain IN Christ if they must say that truth. Because some truths are meaningless, some do not need to be said at some points and instance, some would be better left unsaid and forgotten. But at all times, we must say the truth and let the devil be ashamed. Lying remains a sin till date. As we say the truth, we should also let our conscience bear witness to it. Paul said the truth IN Christ. his conscience also bore witness IN the Holy Ghost. Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are two persons though God. We as believers are in Christ, in the Holy Ghost and in God, that is the Father. The same way, Christ is in us(Christ in you the hope of glory), the Holy Ghost is also in us, and God is in us. It is not a contradiction though it appears paradoxical. These seemingly paradox life is the life of the believer. The believer is not an extremist, but his moderation is known to all men. Our life is balanced on two legs and two ears, as it were. That makes it important that we study scriptures wholly and not just be driven by one aspect. One aspect makes one inbalanced and you can stray off the narrow path before us. There is Christ in us, and there is we(us) in Christ. There is God's part and Our part, there is abounding and there is want, there is grace and there is truth, there is godly sorrow and joy, there is sobriety and being besides one's self, cast down but not destroyed. As we continue in this chapter, we will do well to remember this simple but important fact, that all scripture is truth, and that we cannot cast away all other scripture and base understanding and truth on just one passage like the current passage for instance.

Rom 9:2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.

The writer had great heaviness and continually sorrow. Yet he had in him the joy fruit of the Spirit and joy unspeakable and full of glory. He could tell to rejoice in the Lord always. This is the mystery and beauty of the christian life.

Rom 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

The cause of his heaviness and sorrow was not imprisonment, sickness or affliction. He was not sad and thinking of backsliding, neither was he in depression because he lost something or God did not answer his prayer. What brought sadness to him was the spiritual condition of others. He had his wishes but he also knew the mind and plan of God which should supersede our wishes.

Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

The writer's brethren were the physical Israelites. There is the physical Israelites, and there is the other or spiritual Isaerlites, as we see that the writer says in verse 6 that they are not all Israel. So, we have "Who are Israelites" in verse 4 and then "they are not all Israel" in verse 6. Is it a contradiction, no. We need to study to understand the balance. This one is very close, some other seeming contradictions are books apart. And then some people would build skyscrapper walls to lean on on one right leg. The other sect would build another skyscrapping fence on the other left leg, and they may even call themselves denominations. And they will both get Bible verses to validly support their stance.
The physical Israel are children of God. they are even the original children of God as it were. The are the chosen, thy have God's glory to show forth, the covenants(both new and old) were given to them. There was no gentile present when Jesus was declaring about His new testament. The law was given to them. Every promise we can think of was given to them originally, all the fathers and heroes of faith(at the time of writing) are from their nation, Jesus Christ came through their lineage. They are the classic example of having everything going for them. But they themselves did not go! If anyone should have an edge or be predestined to go anywhere, they were. They were God's people and still are the apple of God's eye. But they did not get what God planned for them. They are a glaring example that it is possible not to get what God has planned for us(whether positive or negative). It is a relief to note though that even though the majority did not take advantage, Paul took advantage. So also did Peter, the 120, and more than 8000 other Israelites who got saved after pentecost. Some others must have stood in self pity and meditated on scriptures that say God has blinded Israel. But the 'smart' ones saw that the kingdomof God suffereth violence and the violent takes it by force.

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

The chapter focuses on the Sovereignty of God. It teaches the Awesomeness, the Incomparability and the Righteousness of God. It teaches it so strongly, in zoom mode that it leaves every reader without doubt as to the point of the matter. The point being that God is good, no matter what happens and what we think. He is answerable to no one. And that whatever action or event, know where never to pass the buck.
It is good to zoom in and see the details of something. It is also good to broaden the horizon and see in full perspective and from various angles to get the full picture and description. Evidently, what we see in zoom mode is not what we see from broad view. panoramic view has its advantages, and so do a microscopic view. In scriptures, the two views are available and are not to be substituted for one another. We cannot look at Romans 9 and forget or throw away Romans 8, or any other chapter. No verse of the Bible is more true than the other. The whole scripture is Truth.
Because of this Awesomeness, our human minds cannot fully comprehend God or His Word or His ways. Our mind is like a cup before God's ocean. We cannot fill the ocean into the cup. Our cups have various sizes and we grow in the knowledge of God. But at the end of the day, no matter your understanding and the size of you cup, it is just still another cup. This is why some things may look inconsistent or even contradictory about God or His Word, but overtime, some of these things we understand. Some we may not grasp, the secret things belong to God.
Considering this verse for instance, Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel. This is in consonance with other scriptures that tell us that God's Word does not go to waste.
Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
Logically, we know that or we may say that God's Word did not take effect on the Israelites. The Bible says it did not profit them, not being mixed with faith. Jesus said they made the Word of God of no effect by their traditions. God sent His Word, but they rejected Him and crucified Him even. But yet, in God's ultimate will and plan, it is not as though the Word of God hath taken no effect. To God, His Word took effect. To Israel, the Word had no effect. Who is correct? The two. Who lost? Not God. Never God. He is Sovereign. He is never unfair, He never loses. He is Great. We can spend our lifetime to know that we are far from close to all He is. It is like comparing the intelligence of a dog to the intelligence of a human being. No matter how intelligent the dog is, it cannot understand trigonometry like a human. Give it the best school and the best teachers. The human will continue to be more intelligent. It's not unfair, its just the way it is.
So He goes on to tell us how the Word of God had effect. They are not all Israel, which are of Israel.

Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

At the end, it actually makes logical sense because Abraham had other seed(children) from Hagar and Keturah and God did not regard them as the seed to which the promise belonged. Being seed of Abraham did not guarantee even the direct children of Abraham from profiting from God's promise, how much more latter generations.

Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Rom 9:9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.

In teaching the Sovereignty and Infallibility of God, the writer continues with this lines. The children of the flesh are not the children of God. It is the children of the promise that are counted. The others are like what is called OFFSIDE goal in soccer. they did not count. Jesus Himself said that that which is born of the flesh is flesh. They do not count. They need to be born of the Spirit, children of promise. The children of the promise are counted for the seed. Those who hook up to the promise are those counted. God had given a promise to Abraham and Sarah, that at this time of life, you will have a son. It was that promised son that counted. In the same vein, we need to wait on God instead of doing our own will and bringing it to God to sign/approve. Faith is trusting God, believing Him, holding on to and waiting on Him. It is the substance and evidence of what is about to be done.

Rom 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

The writer uses yet another instance to justify the claim about the promise, showing that it was not enough to be Abraham's seed. Everybody is accustomed to and easily agrees that Esau and the other children of Abraham did not get the promise. But the Jews at the apostles'time taught that it was automatic for them. They prided themselves in being Abraham's children. But the writer here is showing them reality even from undeniable history, convincing them that not all the seed of Abraham enjoyed the great plan, purpose and promise of God. Yet the Word of God remains true.

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

It was said, the elder shall serve the younger. It was written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. Now, this is omniscience at work. It is similar but better than projecting into the future and making plans based on the projections. Today, we have gadgets that can tell us tomorrow's weather, that can tell us that a sick person has less than 6months to live, that can tell us when a pregnant woman will deliver her baby, and even tell the gender of the baby, and how many babies. Note that all these gadgets are not the cause of the actions being forecast. That a gadget says that a woman will deliver in three weeks is just a projection, perhaps precise. It isn't the one that determined that the woman would deliver in 3weeks. And it does not even force the woman to deliver in three weeks. Things can happen that will make the woman deliver prematurely or deliver a still born. All these changed after the forecast. It is in a similar, howbeit complex way that God looks at us, and tells what we will be in future. He doesn't force it on us but projects as it were. Things happen to us and we make decisions that can make Him change His plans. God planned to take the Israelites from Egypt to Canaan but they perished in the wilderness. He said that He planned to give them honey out of the rock after the water.
Psa 81:16 He should have fed them also with the finest of the wheat: and with honey out of the rock should I have satisfied thee.
Jesus said He wanted to gather the Israelites like the hen gathers the chickens, but He left them desolate. So when God says jacob I love, we ought to want to know why. Why love Jacob? Why would the elder serve the younger? Is it automatic? Looking into the account of Jacob and Esau in Genesis show us why. Esau was a profane person who despised his birthright. He did not have any respect to it neither did he take it serious, unlike Jacob who saw its importance.
Gen 25:32 And Esau said, Behold, I am at the point to die: and what profit shall this birthright do to me?
Gen 25:33 And Jacob said, Swear to me this day; and he swore unto him: and he sold his birthright unto Jacob.

God said that the elder shall serve the younger, or be below the younger. Did this actually happen just like that? No. The younger and his mother conspired to help God and steal the blessings. After they stole it, did the elder serve the younger? No. The younger took to his heels and was away for about twenty years. Even after the 20 years, he was still afraid of the elder. It was until he met the angel and the "i will never let you go" event that God blessed him indeed. He didn't just become blessed Israel simply because the elder shall serve the younger. He got to the end of himself and of his deceitful ways, till he had to lean to walk. Hebrews tells us the great thing that Jacob did by faith. By faith Jacob worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff. Even after God had loved and blessed Jacob, here is what Esau said.
Gen 33:9 And Esau said, I have enough, my brother; keep that thou hast unto thyself.
It wasn't like Esau was cursed or something. By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come. But God who knows all men, made His choice like we all have our reasons for making our choices. It wasn't a spur of the moment decision, but a well calculated decision when we look at it all closely and wholly. He did not put Esau at a disadvantage, neither does He put anyone at a disadvantage. We and our family, parents, and nation, put ourselves at a disadvantage, not God.

Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

Was God unrighteous in His choice? No. Even God forbid. Would not the Judge of the earth do right? It is like having a gift ready for the best performer in a class. the teacher might know the best performer before the performance. We often make predictions and prior analysis on games for instance, and sports. We can tell how a year long season may play out, who and who will shine, who will be the key players, who will finish in the top three or top ten, who is likely to drop. And then at the end of the season, we look at the predictions made and how they played out exactly in some cases. Is it the prediction that caused the events to unfold that way? Not totally, or not at all in most cases. how much more God who is the Only Wise God?

Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

The Bible is like a treasure, and the thing about treasures is that they are not often at the surface. You need to search, you need to dig and mine. You may need to refine. So is it with the Word of God. You look for the treasure in it, you look for how it is going to benefit you, because it was sent to benefit you. Perseverance and persistence is the key to success. Notice how the writer to the Romans quotes copiously from the Old Testament and specifically here from Moses to prove what he is saying. It is not rare to see people today look at you as unserious and legalistic when you quote from the Old testament to teach some things. The apostles never saw the Old Testament scriptures as useless or obsolete. Infact, their noble hearers searched the Old Testament to confirm what the apostles were saying. So, we see Paul here also quoting Moses to teach New Testament Roman believers. He saith to Moses. And it still applies till tomorrow. What He says in this instance is "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."
Surprisingly, what many people just do here is close the book and let's go home. No hope. Let's hope we are among those that God has mercy on. Why not find out, who are those that God will have mercy on? Is there anything that can be done to obtain God's mercy? Any criteria for who God will have mercy on? If God does not appear to have mercy on you, any hope? All these questions are supposed to be asked instead of giving up on God so cheaply as many often do.
The writer is still hitting home on God's Sovereignty, that at the end of it all, it is God on the top. You may say you found God, but ultimately god found you. You may say you drew nearer to God like James said to, but ultimately it was God that drew you. You may say God dwells in an unapproachable light, but ultimately God is not far from all of us. And so on and forth. All these sayings and ultimates are all found in scripture, But let God be all in all, giving God all the glory, and God being true and everyman a liar. So, god will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. Here are some scriptures that show us people that can receive God's mercy.
Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.
Mat 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
God will have mercy on who He will have mercy. This three scriptures show us some of them. Time and space would fail me to mention more for now. Now, is it possible to not have God's mercy before and later have it? Yes. Remember the story of Jonah and the people of Nineveh. Also, consider this new testament passage.
1Pe 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
Mercy there was great, and grace was free,
Pardon there was multiplied to me,
There my burdened soul found liberty,
AT CALVARY

Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the Scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

It is not of your running but ultimately, it is God that shows mercy. Where would we be without His mercy. It is not by power or by might but by God's Spirit. Even the youths shall faint and be weary, and the young men shall utterly fall, but they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength. Are these scriptures calling us to inaction or fate? No. You still need to read for that exam, prepare for that interview, plan that project, keep that body fit etc. But God takes the ultimate glory. Why is then, we come to this passage, and we lose all other knowledge of God and His ways? We still need to believe and confess and follow. Don't just sit in sin and darkness and say it is not of him that willeth. Get up anf fight the good fight of faith, do ALL to stand and stand therfore, putting on the WHOLE armour of God.
Jesus said it is God that draws, but the same Jesus promised to draw all men. Are His promises not all yea and Amen?
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Has He been lifted up? Yes
Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Joh 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

He has drawn all men. no one has an excuse of i was not drawn. If you feel you have not been drawn, then draw yourself.
Jam 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
He will draw nigh to you, that is the promise for you.
Now, to pharaoh. The Scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. The scripture! Genesis is scripture, so also is Exodus. here is paul quoting from Exodus to establish verse 18's THEREFORE. What is wrong with what God said to pharaoh? Nothing. The same statement can be said of anybody. "Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth." God wants us to be used to show His power and glory, and that His name may be declared in all the earth. However, however, there is a law of sowing and reaping on ground. You reap what you sow.
Gala 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
If you sow hardness of heart, don't be surprised if God gives you a hardened heart. Pharaoh could repent if he wanted to, as was seen in this scripture,
Exo 9:27 And Pharaoh sent, and called for Moses and Aaron, and said unto them, I have sinned this time: the LORD is righteous, and I and my people are wicked.
God hardened Pharaoh's heart. Do you also know that Pharaoh hardened his own heart too?
1Sa 6:6 Wherefore then do ye harden your hearts, as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? when he had wrought wonderfully among them, did they not let the people go, and they departed?
Exo 9:34 And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants.
God knows our hearts too like He knew Pharaoh's and knew the Israelites. While it is called today, harden not your heart.
Deu 31:21 And it shall come to pass, when many evils and troubles are befallen them, that this song shall testify against them as a witness; for it shall not be forgotten out of the mouths of their seed: for I know their imagination which they go about, even now, before I have brought them into the land which I swore.

Ubenedictus: i think you are confusing predestination with predetermination

What do you understand to be the difference between the two?

It was said, the elder shall serve the younger. It was written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. Now, this is omniscience at work. It is similar but better than projecting into the future and making plans based on the projections. Today, we have gadgets that can tell us tomorrow's weather, that can tell us that a sick person has less than 6months to live, that can tell us when a pregnant woman will deliver her baby, and even tell the gender of the baby, and how many babies. Note that all these gadgets are not the cause of the actions being forecast. That a gadget says that a woman will deliver in three weeks is just a projection, perhaps precise. It isn't the one that determined that the woman would deliver in 3weeks. And it does not even force the woman to deliver in three weeks. Things can happen that will make the woman deliver prematurely or deliver a still born. All these changed after the forecast. It is in a similar, howbeit complex way that God looks at us, and tells what we will be in future. He doesn't force it on us but projects as it were.

I humbly disagree with this interpretation/analogy. It may apply to other passages, but does not apply to Romans, which clearly says that

Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand.

This is unequivocal - it was decided before their birth and before any individual acts - therefore it was not a prediction, which is why the emphasis was placed on even before they were born and before they had done any good or evil. It was predetermined for the purpose of God. This wasn't a case of 'I predict x will behave this way, therefore y will happen' - although such instances exist.

The reason I believe this is the case is what follows in verse 14 : I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.

This plainly means God decided - it was not dependent on the latter actions of either Jacob or Esau - God decided he would love Jacob and hate Esau (probably for the greater good of all since Jesus came through Jacob's line). It might be unpalatable, but it what the bible plainly states.

I agree that we shouldn't give up on that note or resort to inaction or just fold our arms, but at the same time we need to recognise that God isn't necessarily fair - what we do know is that God is Sovereign. It is a reminder that even when someone is seemingly 'undeserving' of God's goodness by our own measures, God determines what 'reward'/'benefit' that individual receives. It is not for you and I to decide.

Surprisingly, what many people just do here is close the book and let's go home. No hope. Let's hope we are among those that God has mercy on. Why not find out, who are those that God will have mercy on? Is there anything that can be done to obtain God's mercy? Any criteria for who God will have mercy on? If God does not appear to have mercy on you, any hope? All these questions are supposed to be asked instead of giving up on God so cheaply as many often do.

You are slightly contradictory here - if God is indeed Sovereign, then there is absolutely nothing we can do to obtain mercy if he has decided not to show mercy. Even in instances where the bible states that do x and y and receive mercy, it is not a formula that one can apply to receive mercy. You cannot 'force' God to have mercy or 'compel' him to have mercy.

As subsequent verses state - God must call us, must draw us to him first, must convict us of our sin before we can come to him. All those are acts of mercy in themselves. As I stated earlier, all we can do is respond to those calls - do our part as it were. Beyond that we are powerless. Without God being merciful to us in the first place, we cannot even get into a position where we can receive mercy.

The key here is to recognise that beyond whatever action/inaction of ours, God is Sovereign. We must not try to dilute that sovereign power and ability to pre-decide by saying it's merely a prediction.

The book of Romans talks primarily about how our natural inclination to sin
separates us from God. We can't make ourselves right or earn salvation on our own.
In his loving kindness, God provided a way to redeem us through his Son Jesus Christ,
who paid our sin-debt through his sacrificial death. By accepting Christ as Savior and believing in his atoning work, we are saved andJesus'righteousness is credited to us.
The Holy Spirit works in us to help us avoid sin and grow in holiness. God's grace, not keeping the law, makes us
acceptable.
God's plan is just and fair. Both Jews,Gentiles, people of orientation, gay, straight,name it, are eligible to come to Christ and receivesalvation.
Sincere service to Christ is an appropriate way to express our gratitude to God for his gift of salvation. When we work together with other members of the body of Christ, the church, we build each other up and give honor and glory to God.

Rom 8:26 Likewise the
Spirit also helpeth our
infirmities: for we know not
what we should pray for as
we ought: but the Spirit
itself maketh intercession
for us with groanings
which cannot be uttered.

The word "helpeth" was translated from the Greek word"SUNANTILAMBANOMAI," and it means "to take hold of opposite together, i.e. co-operate (assist)" (Strong's Concordance).
It describes a union, not the Holy Spirit doing all the interceding for us. The Holy Spirit helps us as we are interceding, but He doesn't automatically do it for us. The Greek
word that was translated
"infirmities" in this verse is "ASTHENEIA," and it means "feebleness (of mind or body); by
implication, malady; morally, frailty" (Strong's Concordance).
This same word was translated "weakness" five times (1Co 2:3, 15:43; 2Co 12:9, 13:4; and Heb
11:34), so it is easy to see that this word is describing mental
and moral weakness, not just sickness.
Paul went on to describe what these infirmities are when he said, "For we know not what we should pray for as we ought."The infirmities this scripture is speaking of are the weaknesses that come from not knowing how we should pray.

debosky:

I humbly disagree with this interpretation/analogy. It may apply to other passages, but does not apply to Romans, which clearly says that

Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand.

This is unequivocal - it was decided before their birth and before any individual acts - therefore it was not a prediction, which is why the emphasis was placed on even before they were born and before they had done any good or evil. It was predetermined for the purpose of God. This wasn't a case of 'I predict x will behave this way, therefore y will happen' - although such instances exist.

The reason I believe this is the case is what follows in verse 14 : I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.

This plainly means God decided - it was not dependent on the latter actions of either Jacob or Esau - God decided he would love Jacob and hate Esau (probably for the greater good of all since Jesus came through Jacob's line). It might be unpalatable, but it what the bible plainly states.

I agree that we shouldn't give up on that note or resort to inaction or just fold our arms, but at the same time we need to recognise that God isn't necessarily fair - what we do know is that God is Sovereign. It is a reminder that even when someone is seemingly 'undeserving' of God's goodness by our own measures, God determines what 'reward'/'benefit' that individual receives. It is not for you and I to decide.

Debo, it was an analogy. i said that it is similar BUT BETTER THAN a projection/prediction/forecast. A projection or prediction was the explanation i was able to use to try and explain it. It is like describing something out of this world using things that we can all more easily grasp. Like, when the prophets were shown a vision or heaven for instance, they will describe it with something we can grasp. They can say they saw a thing like beryl, or like jasper, or like fine brass etc, or that the Lord is like fire, or water, or rock. The rock is not equal to Him but is being used to describe a quality. What God does is more than, more advanced and better than predictions that we make, or graphs and charts that we project. But i used it to kind of describe His foreknowledge. like we can project into ten years time or fifty years and say something about industries or the human body or the economy. God foresaw before the twins were born and made His choice or election. The Genesis accounts clearly show that this election was not forced on them. Jacob missed it for a tangible part of his life, until he did the right things. Hebrews tell us that Esau could have inherited the blessing.
Heb 12:17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.
He was rejected because he found no place of repentance, because he was a profane person. these were things God saw in him before he was born. Jesus saw Peter was going to fall, but He told him to watch and pray so as not to fall. God decided that He would love Jacob, but we have the benefit of the whole of scriptures at our disposal that show us why He made that decision. God would have mercy on who He would have mercy, the Scriptures show us some of those who He will have mercy on.
Mat 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
The merciful will obtain mercy, except Jesus is lying here. Those that confess and forsake their sins will have mercy.

You are slightly contradictory here - if God is indeed Sovereign, then there is absolutely nothing we can do to obtain mercy if he has decided not to show mercy. Even in instances where the bible states that do x and y and receive mercy, it is not a formula that one can apply to receive mercy. You cannot 'force' God to have mercy or 'compel' him to have mercy.

As subsequent verses state - God must call us, must draw us to him first, must convict us of our sin before we can come to him. All those are acts of mercy in themselves. As I stated earlier, all we can do is respond to those calls - do our part as it were. Beyond that we are powerless. Without God being merciful to us in the first place, we cannot even get into a position where we can receive mercy.

The key here is to recognise that beyond whatever action/inaction of ours, God is Sovereign. We must not try to dilute that sovereign power and ability to pre-decide by saying it's merely a prediction.

Yes there is nothing we can do to obtain mercy if He has decided not to show mercy. But the Scripture teaches that He has decided to show mercy, and searchng the scriptures reveal some of the ways in which we can receive God's mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
i am surer than David that Surely, God's goodness and mercy will follow me ALL THE DAYS of my life. He is good and his mercies endure forever.

Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Note that the writer is here teaching us the Sovereignty of God and that whatever God does, He is the right One. He has established this point in the strictest, shortest terms possible. But we do not read this, and forget every other scripture. It is not to be read to give up hope or become hopeless. The reasonable thing to find out is "Who will God have mercy on?" If God is insisting on he will have mercy on who He will have mercy, you want to know who it is. This is faith, this is what Bartimeus had. He didn't settle for well, if Jesus will have mercy on me, He will heal me. He knows i am here. No, he cried out "Jesus, have mercy on me". The people rebuked him and charged him to keep his mouth shut. Even Jesus was asking for what he wanted. But he was not to be deterred, he obtained mercy. It is the same faith that the Syrophenician woman had. The Word said "I am not sent to you", He also said "It is not okay to give the children's meat to dogs". She didn't say, well what can we do, the very Word has spoken. The Truth has finalised the thing, He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. He has just ruled me out. She obtained mercy. What would we say about Nineveh. The judgement had gone out "Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown." There was no promise for them. They didn't even have Isaiah 55v7 or Proverbs 28v13. But they obtained mercy, they were spared.
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
how bold are you, you've got to be hungry. Are you as bold, as hungry as Bartimeus, or as the Syrophenician, or as the king and people of Nineveh?
Psa 86:5 For thou, Lord, art good, and ready to forgive; and plenteous in mercy unto all them that call upon thee.
God is plenteous in mercy unto ALL that call on Him. These are the kinds of people that He will have mercy on. Psalm 119 reveals that the earth is FULL of His mercy. But like every treasure, you've got to ask and seek and knock, as it were.

Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

These are the kinds of questions that will come up when you do not know the way.
Ecc 10:15 The labor of the foolish wearieth every one of them, because he knoweth not how to go to the city.

God has made us all as men, in His own image, that is with ability to decide, having a will of our own. We are not like the sun or the planets who obey God all the time or the rocks that have nothing to think of. We are made with ability to say yes or say no. That even if God said He would not have mercy on us, we could bring forth our strong reasons as it were, His promises and His revealed Word.
Psa 18:25 With the merciful thou wilt show thyself merciful; with an upright man thou wilt show thyself upright;
This is a paraphrase of Matthew 5v7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. Even the OT repeats countless times that God shows mercy unto thousands, so let's not build this idea that God will have mercy on some few lucky folks. i'll tell you one thing though that can keep you away from God's mercy, hypocrisy and evildoing.
Isa 9:17 Therefore the Lord shall have no joy in their young men, neither shall have mercy on their fatherless and widows: for every one is a hypocrite and an evildoer, and every mouth speaketh folly. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.
But mercy and truth shall be to them that devise good. Proverbs 14.

Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?

The writer says No, do not question God. The solution is not to start questioning, the solution is to Search the scriptures and hold on to God's promises. Do the things that the Word says will bring mercy and watch if you will obtain mercy or no. God is Sovereign. He is all powerful and unquestionable. He cannot be found guilty i.e He is unsearchable. He is able to make of the SAME lump a vessel to honour or to dishonour. Which one do you want to be?
2Ti 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honor, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
If a man therefore purge himself. If a man therefore purge himself, HE WILL BE A VESSEL UNTO HONOUR. We have no excuse.

Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

What if? What if, that is not definite, but an analogy to bring out his point of God's sovereignty. That even if this was the case, God is still sovereign.
God is the God that declares the end from the beginning(with omniscience), and has it has been explained, we are not helpless victims. We are made with ability to be proactive. If a man therefore purge himself, HE WILL BE A VESSEL UNTO HONOUR.

Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Here, the writer attempts to close in on the Gentiles being part of God's plans right from the beginning. That God declares something from the beginning does not mean that we have no part whatsoever to play.
Gen 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.
God had spoken to Abraham and had promised him the blessing that was to cover all of us, jews and gentiles. Yet, it is said that Abraham would command his children and they will obey, so that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him. Then he the writer goes on to show the hints in the OT Bible. His doctrine and teaching about God accepting both Jews and Gentiles had to be proved from the OT. This was the way the first century christians practised their christianity. They searched the scriptures whether these things were so. If the apostles said something, they will go and find it in the OT Bible. But Today, if people bring something from the OT Bible, we begin to hear legalism, under the law, pharisee, covenant, Moses. But the apostle Paul's teachings were steeped in the OT scriptures.

Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Hosea, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
Rom 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

First Hosea, then Isaiah. i wonder what folks would think if i quoted Malachi.

Rom 9:27 Isaiah also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
Rom 9:28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
Rom 9:29 And as Isaiah said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodom, and been made like unto Gomorrah.

The funny thing is that if Paul the writer had come on nairaland and quoted this Hosea and Isaiah passages to support or teach God having both Jews and Gentiles in mind, he will be called an heretic by several. they will say he was twisting those scripture passages and taking them out of context. Because primarily and scholarly, those passages had a somewhat different meaning, context and audience. But the Word of God comes alive by the Spirit of God who inspired it in the first place, not just by scholastic arguments and strong's dictionary.

Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Zion a stumblingstone and rock of offense: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

The summary of the chapter is that the Gentiles attained to righteousness but Israel did not. The Gentiles attained it by faith, it is stated. Israel followed it, but they did not get there. They trusted in their power and works, but it is not by power or might but by the Spirit of faith. Jesus said the same thing, He said "yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?" The jews could not keep the law, the law was not given for them to keep as god knew they would not be able to, by their own power. Today as well, when we strive to keep the law, whatever law wherever, whether found in Leviticus or Ephesians, we will ultimately fail Without God, we can do nothing. We need some great faith to truly believe that. Justification remains by faith, Righteousness is by faith in God, not by efforts, for all our own righteousness is simply our own, filthy rags.

"What then shall we
say? That the Gentiles,
who did not pursue
righteousness, have
obtained it, a
righteousness that is
by faith; but Israel,
who pursued a law of
righteousness, has not
attained it. Why not?
Because they pursued
it not by faith but as if
it were by works. They
stumbled over the
"stumbling stone." As it
is written: "See, I lay in
Zion a stone that
causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes
them fall, and the one
who trusts in him will
never be put to
shame" (Romans
9:30-33)


What a shock Paul's
statement must has been to the Jew steeped in rituals and law. This proclamation
comes as an awakening to many of our churches today.
The only way to obtain the righteousness that the law prescribes is by faith not works. The gentiles who did
not follow after
righteousness or seek
salvation and relationship with God found it through faith in
Jesus by believing the gospel message they heard. They
believed in him and God
imputed his righteousness to
them. This only happens
through faith. In the same
way, the Jews who sought God through what they did and did not do, never obtained it because they never trusted in God to justify them. They only
looked to themselves and
their self righteousness to
fulfill the law. Paul said they stumbled over the stumbling stone and fell flat.
Jesus is the only way to
heaven. He said in John, "I
am the way and the truth
and the life. No one comes to the Father except through
me" ( John 14:6 ). Jesus is the
precious cornerstone that
Isaiah prophesied about,
"See, I lay a stone in Zion, a tested stone, a precious
cornerstone for a sure
foundation; the one who
trusts will never be
dismayed" ( Isaiah 28:16).
He is the rock of our
salvation and the basis of
our entire foundation. Those
who have looked to him
have found security and
eternal life in Him. However to those who reject him, he is a stumbling stone in the
way. They approach God
with their works hoping to find justification, but run into this precious stone and trip and fall. Isaiah said, "and he
will be a sanctuary; but for both houses of Israel he will be a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that
makes them fall. And for the people of Jerusalem he will
be a trap and a
snare" ( Isaiah 8:14 ).
Meaning that they are so self absorbed in their own virtue that they never noticed God's
salvation right in front of
them providing the way. He is placed directly in our paths. To those who rely on themselves they find him in the way. To those who trust
Him they find he is the way.
Knowing all of this, it makes sense that Paul declares that
Israel as a whole did not
obtain the righteousness
they sought. The reason is
that they relied upon their merit and not upon God's grace. Isaiah said, "Listen to
me, you who pursue
righteousness and who seek the LORD : Look to the rock from which you were cut and to the quarry from which you were hewn; look
to Abraham, your father, and to Sarah, who gave you birth.
When I called him he was but one, and I blessed him and made him many" ( Isaiah 51:1-2 ). They were always
suppose to look to God for their salvation. Through faith
they were always suppose to be part of the promise spoken to Abraham. They
were fashioned and created as God's people on the earth
and he wanted them to be dependant upon him.
However because of the law they started looking and trusting in themselves instead of God's grace and
mercy and missed Jesus
along the way.
This has huge implications
for us today. We too are
called to belong to the
promised of grace. However,
many rely on themselves and what they do to find
salvation instead of trusting Jesus to save them. Many go
to church and go through
motions in order to prove
their goodness before God and satisfy His requirements.
Many look to themselves and their own self righteousness
thinking that they are good enough. However we will never be good enough on our own. It is only by grace
that we are saved and this is through faith in Jesus and
this is a gift from God
( Ephesians 2:8-9 ).
Just as we cannot work our way to heaven on our own merit, we cannot work our
way through the Christians life. We may start out by trusting in Jesus as their
savior only to put that aside to live a life of works.
However this will not cut it either. The Christian life is based upon a heart change through the grace offered in Jesus. Everything else
branches out from that.
Whatever we do must be
rooted and cultivated in love as our motivation and not what we can do for God.
When we trust in Jesus as
our savior and live out of
that gift of grace, we will
never be disappointed
because our lives are built
upon that precious
cornerstone and sure
foundation.

Indeed, one step at a time. Here we are on chapter 10, i pray that the grace to finish, God will give, and the salient points to be posted, god will remind. Amen.

Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

We all have heart desires and prayers, but they are still subject to the will and promise of God. Even God's own will is subject to His nature and Word. God wills that all men be saved but it is not going to happen. Nonetheless, we as believers should study god's Word to know His will and promise and nature, and we should by prayers and supplications make our requests known to God. How often do we pray for our country?

Rom 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

It is possible to have a zeal of God without being saved. that is what this verse and verse 1 show us. Israel had a zeal of God, not even of Baal or Ashtaroth or the devil. they had a zeal of God but were not saved. they made sacrifices and offerings, they went to Jerusalem to appear before God every year, they observed the sabbath and patronised the synagogues but they were not saved. It is possible for the soul, the human mind, to be very interested in service, to humanity, the sick, aged, God, and yet be unsaved. Religious activity is not a sure mark of righteousness or salvation. One may be zealous in the choir and church music, or ardent about reading the Bible and concordances but not be saved. They may be motivated by something else apart from God. This is a zeal not according to knowledge. God does not know them, as it were, I never knew you. They do not know God and God does not know them.

Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Can someone assume that the Israelites were ignorant? This verse says they were. Though they had bible verses on their head and on their cloth and ven inside their brain, they were ignorant. They could tell Herod where the Christ would be born, they could quote the Old Testament by rote but they were ignorant. They were going about to ESTABLISH their own righteousness. Their are different types of righteousness, God's righteousness is the original, every other one is rubbish and fake.
Mat 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
Seek God's righteousness and you shall find.
Pro 21:21 He that followeth after righteousness and mercy findeth life, righteousness, and honor.

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Christ is the end of the law i.e Christ is he endpoint, the aim, the goal, the destination of the law. He is where the law is taking us to.
1Ti 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
The end here is the goal, the aim, the apex, the summary. The whole law is summarised or arrives at one point, love/charity. Thou shall love God and thy neighbour. This is what the whole Bible is saying, love. Every passage, every book and verse, it is bringing us to love. And Christ is the full expression of God's love. Every law and rule should bring us to Him. It should draw us closer to Him else the law loses its purpose and context. This is to very one that believeth BTW. The goal of the law(wherever it is found) to every believer should be Christ. The law is not made to justify us but to lead us to Christ. Search the Scriptures, they testify of Christ. Berean christians searched the scriptures and it led them closer to Jesus.

Rom 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

For those who use the law to obtain righteousness, they have to live by the law. We have seen, in earlier chapters, that this is actually humanly impossible. The law should lead to Christ, it is meant as a mirror, to help us see our helplessness and sin, and run to Jesus for cleansing and righteousness and justification. For those who use, or try to use the law for cleansing or justification, they will have to live by them. Paul proves this by quoting from the Old testament scripture. He proves his next point by also quoting the Old testament scriptures.

Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above
Rom 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

The righteousness which is by faith is God's righteousness and it is the accepted and original righteousness. There is only one way and one institution producing the currency. Every other way and institution will produce illegal and fake currencies. Every other way of righteousness, whether self righteousness, our own righteousness, law righteousness, societal righteousness, all these are filthy rags before God.
the righteousness which is of faith is also seen in Moses. Deuteronomy to be exact. It is not a question of location. god is not limited by location. the time has come when God is not only worshipped in Jerusalem or in Ephesians or in the writings of Peter or Paul. The righteousness which is of faith was already speaking through Moses.
Deu 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
Deu 30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deu 30:13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deu 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

People think that if a law or word or passage is found in Corinthians or in Jude, then it is more holy or accepted than if it is found in Malachi or Nehemiah or Deuteronomy. The apostles never taught or thought so. they quoted the scriptures freely, and preached Jesus whether it was Leviticus or Isaiah or Nahum. Infact, they had to quote those books for their messages to gain any authenticity or validity. The people were not to be bamboozled by signs and wonders and prophecy. They knew
Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
How we need to re-know these things. It would make us new testament christians indeed, more noble, and not having to pick and choose our fancies and wrap Bible verses around our ideas and feelings. The Word is near us if we have and exercise faith. it is not far away, it is right close and should be allowed to come into our hearts. God is not far from any one of us.
Act 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

The writer assures every reader that we can be saved. The Word is not far, righteousness of faith is not esoteric. All you need to do is confess and believe. All we need are our hearts and our mouths, which we all have. The promise of God is yes and amen, THOU SHALT BE SAVED.

And how shall they preach,
except they be sent Romans 10:15

There is no proper, rightful, regular, and lawful preaching of
the word without a mission, which is either extraordinary, or
ordinary; extraordinary mission was such as the apostles themselves had; who, as they were called to extraordinary
service, had extraordinary
qualifications, and were sent forth in an extraordinary
manner, with a power of doing miracles, and immediately by
Christ himself. Ordinary mission is of men to be pastors and teachers, which includes qualifications for the ministerial work; for whom Christ sends
forth into such service, he
bestows gifts on them, fitting them for it, some more, some less, but all have some; and it
also includes a call unto it,
which is either internal, and by
the Spirit of God, and lies partly in the furniture he gives, and the inclination of the heart to
this good work which he forms;
and which arises not from a vanity of mind, and a desire of popular applause, and worldly
views, and sinister ends; but from a real concern for the good of souls, and the glory of Christ, being willing to deny
themselves, and forsake all for Christ, to suitor reproach for his
name's sake, and to forego all worldly interest, and secular
views: or is external, which is given by the churches of Christ,
after due trial and examination
of gifts, and a serious
consideration of the matter, and
that in the most solemn
manner; and this is what may
be properly called a preacher's mission, and none but such
who are in this way sent out ought to preach the Gospel: and to such well agrees, and may be
applied, that passage in (Isaiah52:7 ) , where
it is written, how beautiful are the feet of them that preach the
Gospel of peace, and bring glad
tidings of good things ;
which words are not to be understood of the messengers that brought the tidings of
deliverance from the Babylonish captivity, but of the ministers of the Gospel. In ( Isaiah 52:7 )

@debo

I admire your questions here, you come across like a stickler to what the book says than what seem right to man or what we want the book to say.

@ image

I commend you for your zest for the word of God. Though, I notice a double standard in your interpretation. On one hand you seem to agree God foreknew, called and predestined us according to His own purpose. On the other hand you seem to propagate a gospel that says you could lose your salvation by what you do or do not do.

shdemidemi: @debo

I admire your questions here, you come across like a stickler to what the book says than what seem right to man or what we want the book to say.

@ image

I commend you for your zest for the word of God. Though, I notice a double standard in your interpretation. On one hand you seem to agree God foreknew, called and predestined us according to His own purpose. On the other hand you seem to propagate a gospel that says you could lose your salvation by what you do or do not do.

demidemi, long time oh. Hope it is well.

Image123:

demidemi, long time oh. Hope it is well.

Yes bro...all is fine,thanks.

welcome back.