pazienza: And i find myself agreeing with antivirus. The idea of igbo subgroups like ngwa,idemili,ndoki,etc,are all but artificial creations formed many years before the coming of the whites by igbo people who established these towns and whose towns share close proximity with each other.

While this may be applicable for some communities and to varying degrees, it is just a gross oversimplification of things. You're giving the impression of 'identity through vague political allegiance', which is virtually untrue for the various culture groups.

Your statement is applicable to our new "Igbo" identity though.

Many of these cultural groups do have vague political allegiances, at least before the 20th century. The groups seem to acknowledge common descent and ancestral traditions, but politically, especially in more southerly place, the only unit that truly matters politically is the village and even those bonds are often shaky.

I don't disagree with the existence of vague political allegiances, but I do disagree with qualifying the various culture groups as "artificial creations formed...by Igbo people who established towns and whose towns share close proximity with each other". It's essentially analogous to saying that vague political allegiances are the basis of the various culture group identities.

odumchi:

Everything boils down to your unfamiliarity with everything outside of your immediate surroundings. You speak authoritatively on behalf of the Igbo peoples, yet you don't know much.

I have been saying this and will continue to say it: the peoples of Igboland do not practice the same culture. Ali Igbo is broken up into culture zones inhabited by peoples that share similar cultural practices. The culture zones of Ali Igbo are: North Western (Nri-Awka), Northern (Nsuka-Enugu), North Eastern (Ikwo-Mgbo), Cross River (Aro-Bende-Ohafia-Edda), Southern (Ngwa-Etche-Ikwere-Ndoki-Urata-Isu), and Western (Ika-Oshimili-Ndokwa-Aboh).

Secondly, Aro and Ngwa are not in the same class as Awka. Aro and Ngwa are ethnicities that exist under the umbrella of "Igbo" whereas Awka is a town. Aro and Ngwa are both large groups of people that share a common identity, and therefore to classify them along with Awka is an insult. When discussing Awka, you mention Umuahia, Nkwerre, Aboh, Owerri, and Enugu. When discussing Aro and Ngwa, you mention Ika, Ikwere, Ohuhu, Isu, and Nri (the people, not the place).

you don't know anything about igbo people as u claim to do. All your claims lie in what you read from the internet. This north-west, north,south etc are all artificial creations by you. There is nothing like cultural zones in anambra,enugu,delta and even imo. We igbos have our basic cultures that unite us and then each town has it's "culture" that is limited to it. Please can you differentiate between nsukka culture and awka culture? If u can, just give us five examples. That a large group of people speak the same dialect does not make them a cultural zone. Get that into ur head. Going by that,both nsukka and awka have nri root. The only place where there is difference in igbo culture is in the boarders especially in abia. Towns like ngwa,abiriba,ohafia,ngwa,arochukwu all share boarders with other non-igbos. So they mixed and adopted some cultures of those non-igbos. The likes of ekpeye,ekpo,ibini ukpabi and so on have been in existence outside igboland before aro and co were founded.
Secondly- aro and nri/eri are not in the same status. Aro was founded many years ago while nri has existed before igbo. Nri is igbo. The igbo elements in aro has it's root in the nri-awka-orlu-nsukka axis. Prove me wrong by telling me where ezeagwu came from.

Abagworo:

You are definitely not familiar with Igbos going by what you've written. Every culture you wrote up there is observed by both the Edo and Yoruba. Even the market days do exist in Bini. The masquerades you find in Igboland differs among cultural groups and the Nmanwu thing seems prevalent around some parts of Imo and Anambra. Other Igbos have Owu, Okonko, Ekpe, Ekpo and several other masquerades that have little or nothing in common with Nmanwu.

Follow these links

The kolanut is as important in Edo

http://tripwow.tripadvisor.com/slideshow-photo/breaking-of-kola-nut-by-a-benin-elder-a-very-significant-aspect-of-edo-african-culture-and-tradition-n1-lagos-nigeria.html?sid=17044962&fid=fb-5005218955369295015

The days of the week in Edo are Eken, Orie, Aho, Okuo and notice also that some parts of Igboland use Eken, Orie, Aho and Nkwo instead of Eke, Oye, Afor and Nkwo for others.

www.edo-nation.net/numer.htm

New yam festival in Edo

www.vanguardngr.com/2012/12/feasting-on-yam-king-of-crops-in-utese-ovia/

There is also Edo masquerades which is as different from Nmanwu as the masquerades found in Ngwa or elsewhere in Igboland are from Nmanwu.

There is also circumcision in Edo. Everything there is applicable to Yoruba as well apart from maybe the 4 days. So tell me how that stands Igbos out culturally.

ur problem is that u cannot differentiate between dialects and culture. Oye-orie,afo-aho-awho,nkwo-nkwoho etc are all the same just dialetic differences. Mmanwu is the official igbo name for masquarade. All parts of enugu,anambra,delta,greater part of imo and abia even ebonyi refer to masquarade as mmanwu. The exceptions to these are igbos at the boarders who were influenced by their non-igbo neighbours. The yorubas in oyo and the yorubas that are in or that share boarders with benin republic for goodness sake must not have exactly the same everything. But that doesn't make them cultural groups or zones. For sure,if u share boarders with outsiders,they will influence u and u will influence them. You loose some of ur original marks to them and they loose theirs to you.

Antivirus92: ur problem is that u cannot differentiate between dialects and culture. Oye-orie,afo-aho-awho,nkwo-nkwoho etc are all the same just dialetic differences. Mmanwu is the official igbo name for masquarade. All parts of enugu,anambra,delta,greater part of imo and abia even ebonyi refer to masquarade as mmanwu. The exceptions to these are igbos at the boarders who were influenced by their non-igbo neighbours. The yorubas in oyo and the yorubas that are in or that share boarders with benin republic for goodness sake must not have exactly the same everything. But that doesn't make them cultural groups or zones. For sure,if u share boarders with outsiders,they will influence u and u will influence them. You loose some of ur original marks to them and they loose theirs to you.

You are an unenlightened Igbo man if I may say. Nmanwu is restricted to a very small part of Igboland until recently. If you say its a lie,open a thread and ask Igbos what they call masquerade and you'll get a thousand names. Nmanwu is that masquerade that has raffia all over it with clothes and mirror. An example is Ijele.

Now look at what this scholar wrote

This  mask contains a story about the Igbo who are one of the three largest groups in Nigeria. They are a socially and culturally diverse population who live in the southeastern part of the country. 

http://www.clarku.edu/~jborgatt/discover/1amdavis/amdavis.htm

Abagworo:

There is nothing like Idemili but Ngwa and Ndoki are subgroups. Idemili is one of the central Igbo communities that live in small villages with no sense of "dinstinctness". There is no record of idemili as a group nor a culture group. I think they belong to the Nri culture group. There are no names that are exclusively Idemili, different from other Nri affiliated Igbos.

You are dead wrong on this. Idemili is a subgroup in the same way ngwa is.

Abagworo:

There is nothing like Idemili but Ngwa and Ndoki are subgroups. Idemili is one of the central Igbo communities that live in small villages with no sense of "dinstinctness". There is no record of idemili as a group nor a culture group. I think they belong to the Nri culture group. There are no names that are exclusively Idemili, different from other Nri affiliated Igbos.

You are dead wrong on this. Idemili is a subgroup in the same way ngwa is. And there is a sense of distinctness amongst the idemili and other non-idemili town, this can be seen in the relationship between Ogidi(idemili) and Ogbunike(non idemili), nnobi(idemili) and its non idemili neighbours.

Just that unlike groups like ngwa and their co-travellers,we don't hype these small differences,we often wave them aside.

Idemili as a distinct cultural zone,pre dates nigeria.

odumchi:

This is where you people get it wrong. Aro exists in two forms. There is Aro, the place, and Aro the people. Aro, the place, refers specifically to Arochukwu, the ancestral home of all Aro people. Aro [the people] refers universally to Aro people. Whether from Aro Ndikelionwu (in Anambra), Aro Isiokpo (in Rivers), Arochukwu (in Abia), Aro Ndizuogu (in Imo), Aro Ajalli (in Anambra) or any of the dozens of Aro settlements scattered both inside and outside Igboland, we are all one people: Aro.

Please take a look at this link so as to clear up your confusion: http://books.google.com/books?id=tjLjoC6ScKYC&pg=PA18&lpg=PA19&ots=vtRJor8RJ9&dq=ikeji+aro&output=html_text

My bestfriend is an arochukwu guy,i know a lot about the aros.

Arochukwu was formed like most igbo towns by different igbo groups migrating from other igbo towns and establishing a new town,while giving up their previous identities to take up the name of their new established town,and by so doing,they now begin to see themselves as same people with other previously strange people,that they now share a town with.

Every new igbo town those days were founded by igbos from other towns who gave up their initial identities to share a new identity with other people in their new town.

Somehow along the line,maybe due to the fact that these their migrations took place recently,(these people from other parts of igboland who gave up their intial clan names to take up the name of their new clan,arochukwu) lost that natural ability to let go of their initial clan name,and pick up the name of their new clan,as was customary in those days, if ezenna agwu,one of the founding fathers of arochukwu,insisted in retaining his clan name like,there won't be any aro in the first place, hope you get my point.

pazienza:

My bestfriend is an arochukwu guy,i know a lot about the aros.

Arochukwu was formed like most igbo towns by different igbo groups migrating from other igbo towns and establishing a new town,while giving up their previous identities to take up the name of their new established town,and by so doing,they now begin to see themselves as same people with other previously strange people,that they now share a town with.

Every new igbo town those days were founded by igbos from other towns who gave up their initial identities to share a new identity with other people in their new town.

Somehow along the line,maybe due to the fact that these their migrations took place recently,(these people from other parts of igboland who gave up their intial clan names to take up the name of their new clan,arochukwu) lost that natural ability to let go of their initial clan name,and pick up the name of their new clan,as was customary in those days, if ezenna agwu,one of the founding fathers of arochukwu,insisted in retaining his clan name like,there won't be any aro in the first place, hope you get my point.

I'm sorry, but I don't understand how this relates to what I wrote earlier.

Antivirus92: you don't know anything about igbo people as u claim to do. All your claims lie in what you read from the internet. This north-west, north,south etc are all artificial creations by you. There is nothing like cultural zones in anambra,enugu,delta and even imo. We igbos have our basic cultures that unite us and then each town has it's "culture" that is limited to it. Please can you differentiate between nsukka culture and awka culture? If u can, just give us five examples. That a large group of people speak the same dialect does not make them a cultural zone. Get that into ur head. Going by that,both nsukka and awka have nri root. The only place where there is difference in igbo culture is in the boarders especially in abia. Towns like ngwa,abiriba,ohafia,ngwa,arochukwu all share boarders with other non-igbos. So they mixed and adopted some cultures of those non-igbos. The likes of ekpeye,ekpo,ibini ukpabi and so on have been in existence outside igboland before aro and co were founded.
Secondly- aro and nri/eri are not in the same status. Aro was founded many years ago while nri has existed before igbo. Nri is igbo. The igbo elements in aro has it's root in the nri-awka-orlu-nsukka axis. Prove me wrong by telling me where ezeagwu came from.

You completely missed the point of what I wrote. First of all, Nsuka and Awka are in two different culture zones. Nsuka culture is blended with Igala elements, and its political organization differs starkly from that of Awka. Read this: http://books.google.com/books?id=HBnfqWtXDRwC&pg=PA157&dq=nsukka+culture&hl=en&sa=X&ei=v0_IUbqLGczc4APpk4HgBQ&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAQ

Secondly, Nri (the people) are in the same classification as Aro (the people), Ikwere (the people), Ika (the people), and Ngwa (the people), just like I said earlier. I did not ask you which predates which; what I said was that Nri (to a lesser extent than the Aro and Ngwa) are a group of people with a shared identity, history, and culture, making them a sub-ethnic group of some sorts.

Whether you guys choose to accept it or not, the only real form of cultural "homologousness" exists (to some extent) within the culture zones; meaning communities within the same culture zones have very similar practices; nearby culture zones are some-what similar. This is why the differences in the cultures of Abiriba and Onicha outweigh the similarities.

Abagworo:

You are an unenlightened Igbo man if I may say. Nmanwu is restricted to a very small part of Igboland until recently. If you say its a lie,open a thread and ask Igbos what they call masquerade and you'll get a thousand names. Nmanwu is that masquerade that has raffia all over it with clothes and mirror. An example is Ijele.

Now look at what this scholar wrote

You are dead wrong again,i don't give a shit about what clueless scholars wrote.

The term Nmanwu is a generic name for masquerade in Igbo nzugbe, every igbo clan has what it calls it's own Nmanwu, in idemili,we don't even call it Nmanwu,we call it 'Nmuo' meaning spirit.

All igbo clan has it's own nmawu and name they call it in their local dialect and the costumes these masquarades wear,differs from one igbo town to another.

Stop making these stuffs complex,cos they are not. Ijele is not an Mmanwu,it's an Nmuo, cos that's what idemilis call masquarades,but in the spirit of using the standard igbo that recommends Mmanwu to mean masquarades,we idemilis also agree that Ijele is an Nmanwu.

Why can't you guys do the same? If Nmanwu be the standard igbo word for masquarade and Owu,Okonko etc are all masquarades,it's only logical and simple to call them Nmanwu!

odumchi:

I'm sorry, but I don't understand how this relates to what I wrote earlier.

Arochukwu is only the ancestral place of all aros,because they simply want to end their geneology there. The founders of arochukwu were not aro,they came from other igbo clans.

odumchi:

You completely missed the point of what I wrote. First of all, Nsuka and Awka are in two different culture zones. Nsuka culture is blended with Igala elements, and its political organization differs starkly from that of Awka. Read this: http://books.google.com/books?id=HBnfqWtXDRwC&pg=PA157&dq=nsukka+culture&hl=en&sa=X&ei=v0_IUbqLGczc4APpk4HgBQ&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAQ

Secondly, Nri (the people) are in the same classification as Aro (the people), Ikwere (the people), Ika (the people), and Ngwa (the people), just like I said earlier. I did not ask you which predates which; what I said was that Nri (to a lesser extent than the Aro and Ngwa) are a group of people with a shared identity, history, and culture, making them a sub-ethnic group of some sorts.

Whether you guys choose to accept it or not, the only real form of cultural "homologousness" exists (to some extent) within the culture zones; meaning communities within the same culture zones have very similar practices; nearby culture zones are some-what similar. This is why the differences in the cultures of Abiriba and Onicha outweigh the similarities.

Ngwa didn't fall from heaven,they came from already established igbo groups in imo state,their sense of distinctness was acquired over a long period of time,because of their proximity to each them, this holds true to other igbo subgroups.

pazienza:

Arochukwu is only the ancestral place of all aros,because they simply want to end their geneology there. The founders of arochukwu are not aro,they came from other igbo clans.

The term "Aro" exists only because of the existence of Arochukwu. The Aro people are a relatively new, but large group of people whose origins, as a group, starts at Arochukwu. Tracing anything beyond that would no longer be tracing Aro history.

pazienza:

You are dead wrong again,i don't give a shit about what clueless scholars wrote.

The term Mmanwu is a generic name for masquerade in Igbo nzugbe, every igbo clan has what it calls it's own Mmanwu, in idemili,we don't even call it mmanwu,we call it 'Nmuo' meaning spirits.

All igbo clan has it's own mmawu and name they call it in their local dialect and the costumes these masquarades wear,differs from one igbo town to another.

Stop making these stuffs complex,cos they are not. Ijele is not an Mmanwu,it's an Nmuo, cos that's what idemili's call masquarades,but in the spirit of using the standard igbo that recommends Mmanwu to mean masquarades,we idemilis also agree that Ijele is an Mmanwu.

Why can't you guys do the same? If Mmanwu be the standard igbo word for masquarade and Owu,Okonko etc are all masquarades,it's only logical and simple to call them Mmanwu!

In my part of Abia (Old Bende region), all typse of non-Ekpe masquerades are called 'ekpo'. 'Mmanwu' doesn't exist in our lexicon. Ekpe is a different masquerade genre on its own.

odumchi:

In my part of Abia (Old Bende region), all typse of non-Ekpe masquerades are called 'ekpo'. 'Mmanwu' doesn't exist in our lexicon. Ekpe is a different masquerade genre on its own.

Neither does Nmawu exist in idemili lexicon,what exists is 'Mmuo', just like 'dum' does not exist in our lexicon,what exists is nine/ncha, so whats the big deal? You don't see the idemili man moaning over why 'dum' instead of 'ncha' should be the standard igbo word for all? Why must you people moan over our little differences?

odumchi:

The term "Aro" exists only because of the existence of Arochukwu. The Aro people are a relatively new, but large group of people whose origins, as a group, starts at Arochukwu. Tracing anything beyond that would no longer be tracing Aro history.

Why stop the tracing at aro? To give you guys a sense of distinctness,isn't it? why not trace the igbo towns the founders of arochukwu came from?

odumchi:

I'm sorry, but I don't understand how this relates to what I wrote earlier.

I was trying to explain to you why we seem to have aro this,aro that scattered all over igboland. Unlike other igbo groups that gave up the names of the initial town they came from,to embrace a new identity,these aros simply lost the ability to do that. Even when we know that the founders of arochukwu were not aro,they came from other igbo clans,gave up their clan names as was normal,and acquired a new name aro.

So,in essence,the distinctness aro has today is but an acquired one,as we know that their ancestors were not aro,but belonged to another igbo clan.

Looking at this thread, you'll discover that there are some Igbos that are trying to force others to accept their own view of Igboship and believe wholeheartedly that they are right. That should also tell you the stance in general Igbo ethnic group. Our social and cultural diversity is not hidden. I understand the fears and it is about Igbo unity. I believe so much in Igbo unity and I know Ngwas and Aros can stake there all for Igbo unity as well but the truth remains that we know our differences even though we are all Igbos.

pazienza: Ngwa didn't fall from heaven,they came from already established igbo groups in imo state,their sense of distinctness was acquired over a long period of time,because of their proximity to each them, this holds true to other igbo subgroups.

Though there are some communities in Ngwa that can trace descent from that general location, Ngwa itself did not come from "already established Igbo groups in Imo state". Also, you should really stop trying to attribute group distinction to proximity. Group distinction is not inherent in proximity. It is inherent in the historical, social and political context in which group consciousness is derived. Proximity is also not a deciding factor in group distinction. As a phenomenon, proximity neither breaks nor makes group distinction, so this effort to attribute distinction to proximity is misguided.

They formed Nri identity, simply because they live close to each other.
They formed Nkerehi identity, simply because they live close to each other.
They formed Urata identity, simply because they live close to each other.
They formed Oru identity, simply because they live close to each other.
They formed Olokoro identity, simply because they live close to each other, etc. etc.

I could go on, but we should all get the point I am making by now. Any attempt to define the development of any society by proximity just doesn't make sense. In short, it's just nonsensical as it completely disregards all historical, social and political contexts responsible for the society's formation in the first place. In terms of distinction, proximity truly does not hold a candle to context. Now, no one is disagreeing with you when you say that distinction is acquired. Any reasonable person with common knowledge of history and sociology would know that distinction is not inherent in existence, but acquired over time. So all of us here understand that. What we do not understand (and consequently do not agree with) is your fixation with and your attempt at associating distinction as a product of proximity. That simply does not make sense. It doesn't make sense to us, and we don't believe it should make sense to you either as a reasonable person.

ChinenyeN:

Though there are some communities in Ngwa that can trace descent from that general location, Ngwa itself did not come from "already established Igbo groups in Imo state". Also, you should really stop trying to attribute group distinction to proximity. Group distinction is not inherent in proximity. It is inherent in the historical, social and political context in which group consciousness is derived. Proximity is also not a deciding factor in group distinction. As a phenomenon, proximity neither breaks nor makes group distinction, so this effort to attribute distinction to proximity is misguided.

They formed Nri identity, simply because they live close to each other.
They formed Nkerehi identity, simply because they live close to each other.
They formed Urata identity, simply because they live close to each other.
They formed Oru identity, simply because they live close to each other.
They formed Olokoro identity, simply because they live close to each other, etc. etc.

I could go on, but we should all get the point I am making by now. Any attempt to define the development of any society by proximity just doesn't make sense. In short, it's just nonsensical as it completely disregards all historical, social and political contexts responsible for the society's formation in the first place. In terms of distinction, proximity truly does not hold a candle to context. Now, no one is disagreeing with you when you say that distinction is acquired. Any reasonable person with common knowledge of history and sociology would know that distinction is not inherent in existence, but acquired over time. So all of us here understand that. What we do not understand (and consequently do not agree with) is your fixation with and your attempt at associating distinction as a product of proximity. That simply does not make sense.

They were all igbos,which explains why even those at the borders have more similarity with those at the centre than they have with their next door non-igbo neighbours.

But look at anyhow u want to,the subgroup ish was a product of proximity,full stop.

Abagworo: Looking at this thread, you'll discover that there are some Igbos that are trying to force others to accept their own view of Igboship and believe wholeheartedly that they are right. That should also tell you the stance in general Igbo ethnic group. Our social and cultural diversity is not hidden. I understand the fears and it is about Igbo unity. I believe so much in Igbo unity and I know Ngwas and Aros can stake there all for Igbo unity as well but the truth remains that we know our differences even though we are all Igbos.

Because aros lost the ability to lose their affiliation to arochukwu,their town of migration, unlike other groups,who quickly threw away their town of origin and acquired new identities with the new igbo speaking people they now share same identities with.

Aro should therefore serve as a example,to prove that all igbo people are the same people,who just kept migrating to and fro around the current igboland,giving up their old identities and acquiring new ones.

If those aros far and wide in all part of igboland gave up their aro identities as was the norm,they would have acquired same identity with the new groups they now reside with,and we wouldnt have been able to trace them back to arochukwu,as these aro communities now have the same dialect,physique,food, and culture with all these communities they now found themselves with as a result of proximity.

Abagworo: Looking at this thread, you'll discover that there are some Igbos that are trying to force others to accept their own view of Igboship and believe wholeheartedly that they are right. That should also tell you the stance in general Igbo ethnic group. Our social and cultural diversity is not hidden. I understand the fears and it is about Igbo unity. I believe so much in Igbo unity and I know Ngwas and Aros can stake there all for Igbo unity as well but the truth remains that we know our differences even though we are all Igbos.

Differences exist everywhere,no one is denying that. Even amongst the ngwa,there are differences too,the ngwa spoken in isialangwa north is not exactly the same with those spoken in ugwunagbo and obingwa.

The differences in igbo union are very small and insignificant,you lots should stop magnifying it.

pazienza:

Differences exist everywhere,no one is denying that. Even amongst the ngwa,there are differences too,the ngwa spoken in isialangwa north is not exactly the same with those spoken in ugwunagbo and obingwa.

The differences in igbo union are very small and insignificant,you lots should stop magnifying it.

As an Nri descendant, I hope you are aware that many Igbos believe Nri came from Igala or at least has links with Igala just like the groups you accuse of having links with Ibibio. Now tell me why you believe that you are the prototype of the pure Igbo rather than those that have no history of migration.

Abagworo:

As an Nri descendant, I hope you are aware that many Igbos believe Nri came from Igala or at least has links with Igala just like the groups you accuse of having links with Ibibio. Now tell me why you believe that you are the prototype of the pure Igbo rather than those that have no history of migration.

fyi, eri, the father of nri was also the father of the founder of igala. Nri/eri came has connection with igala. The early igalas(not this modern mixed-up igalas) are of igbo descent. Claims that nri came from igala is baseless. How can nri come from igala where as his father came from another place other than igala?. The name igbo came from nri-awka-okigwe axis,which is the core igbo region(where igbo dispersion started).

I couldn't say it more again. I was left speechless when i saw my brother,pazienza's posts. He just summarized everything. But it will take a well-thinking brain and an unbiased mind to believe him. His description "igbo is the same group of people who kept migrating over and over again, loosing their previous identities" just summarized everything. This is what i am fighting for. Magnifying a little difference, creating cultural zones where there is none,judging a whole tribe with the few immigrants they assimilated is totally madness. Thumbs up brother. IDEMMILI AMAKA!

I think I get what the discrepancy here may be. Pazienza has made it no secret that he (along with a few others here) believe that the communities we now come to refer to as "Igbo people" have always been (and known themselves as) "Igbo people". According to proponents of this theory (in the context of this discussion), these "Igbo peoples'" existence as Ngwa or Aro or Nri or Izi is simply as a result of them relocating and forming identities with co-travelers along the way and nothing more. Does that sound about right or am I missing anything?

ChinenyeN: I think I get what the discrepancy here may be. Pazienza has made it no secret that he (along with a few others here) believe that the communities we now come to refer to as "Igbo people" have always been (and known themselves as) "Igbo people". According to proponents of this theory (in the context of this discussion), these "Igbo peoples'" existence as Ngwa or Aro or Nri or Izi is simply as a result of them relocating and forming identities with co-travelers along the way and nothing more. Does that sound about right or am I missing anything?

That's my point. They may not have known themselves by the word 'Igbo', but they knew that they were one and same people, what ever word they use to know themselves as,seem to have been lost in antiquity as they migrated to and fro across the lenght and breadth of igboland.

ChinenyeN: I think I get what the discrepancy here may be. Pazienza has made it no secret that he (along with a few others here) believe that the communities we now come to refer to as "Igbo people" have always been (and known themselves as) "Igbo people". According to proponents of this theory (in the context of this discussion), these "Igbo peoples'" existence as Ngwa or Aro or Nri or Izi is simply as a result of them relocating and forming identities with co-travelers along the way and nothing more. Does that sound about right or am I missing anything?

answer that question urself. Onye ana-agwo ibi ona-eto afo nweriri ife ona-acho n'ajo ofia. I know ur next move. To start the debate on igbo consciousness and how it was created by europeans.

Abagworo:

As an Nri descendant, I hope you are aware that many Igbos believe Nri came from Igala or at least has links with Igala just like the groups you accuse of having links with Ibibio. Now tell me why you believe that you are the prototype of the pure Igbo rather than those that have no history of migration.

Believe me,i am not one of those that go around preaching about nri being the head and purest of igbos,cos none of that make sense to me. There is nothing like pure and im pure igbo.

Ogidi cannot trace her origin beyond ezechumagha, we only know that ezechumagha was the grandfather of Ogidi,whose father was Inwelle. I can't say for certain where ezechumagha came from,and neither nri can account for him either, for all i care,he might have migrated from any part of igboland,and his son inwelle and grandson Ogidi finally settled in our present location,and over time, we came to assume the identity 'idemili' with other towns around us.

Ogidi cannot trace her geneology directly to nri ,but since our present culture mimicks that of nri, we simply go with the nri bandwagon,cos we know it makes no difference whether we are nri or not,cos just like nri,we are igbos too.

Why can't you guys down south take this same disposition?

pazienza:

Believe me,i am not one of those that go around preaching about nri being the head and purest of igbos,cos none of that make sense to me. There is nothing like pure and im pure igbo.



Why can't you guys down south take this same disposition?

You are a true son of your father. It is true that there is nothing like pure and impure Igbo but many people have refused to accept that. Many historians made the mistake of ascribing what is found in one Igbo area as the general Igbo trait without bearing in mind our diversity. With that as a parameter, they concluded that anything different from there prototype Igbo was borrowed. "Antivirus" is making same mistakes.