I think this article is necessary to counter the plague of FALSE visions from Hell and to further enlighten the brethren on the need to be careful when listening to , or reading about these encounters.



Some similarities experienced by people who have these visions :

1. They almost always involve people who came back from the dead after a brief illness or were very near death.
2. These people are met by a being of immense brightness and light identified as JESUS.
3. This being takes them on a tour of heaven and then hell
4. He tells them they actually deserved hell and were on their way there ,but for his mercy
4. He sends them back to earth to tell people what they saw, especially the people of GOD who are his main target ( hmmm)
5. These people write books that become best sellers and go on a preaching tour which in many cases attracts a healthy financial contribution.




Now , I will like to carefully analyse this issue in the light of the parable told by Jesus about the rich man and Lazarus.

"27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’” - Luke 16:27-31



Few things to note about this parable :

- This Parable was told by Jesus Christ
- The Rich MAN wanted to warn his brethren who were still alive on the face of the earth about HELL.
- He asked Abraham to send Lazarus from the dead to warn his brothers,
- His Request was denied
- Abraham insisted that his brothers had the Law and the Prophets ( Scripture or God's word ) and this was sufficient.
- Abraham went on to say that even if ONE rose from the dead ( like Jesus did ) , they will not believe.


It is clear that in the mind of Jesus , the Holy inspired word of GOD was more than enough for the Rich MAN's brothers spiritual needs .

Jesus made it very plain that no one is allowed to rise up from the dead in any condition and then to embark on a mission to warn mankind about HELL . There is no communication between the dead and the living.

The Word of GOD is what the Rich Man's brothers needed not a tale from a former resident of HELL or one who had had some peculiar after death experience.

These visions of hell or heaven are almost 100% demonic.


The being ( in most cases ) that these people see is SATAN and not Jesus.

"But I am not surprised! Even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light." - 2 Corinthians 11:14


We have been warned about lying signs and wonders sent to decieve those who perish and who will not receive the love of the truth, these visions are all a part of these lying wonders, together with false miracles, slain in the spirit experiences etc.

"The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie," - 2 Thessalonians 2:9


My plea to you today is to disregard these lies from SATAN, do not be scared into following or loving GOD, love him because he is you father and he loved your first, love him because he has great plans for your life, love him because he sent his only son to redeem you back to himself, but never ever 'LOVE' him because of the fear of a false HELL or outrageous silly visions.


Finally Fear GOD which is to rever him and to tread carefully in his courts, knowing that he only has the power to destroy body and soul in Gehenna, DO NOT FEAR MAN.

Well said Frosbel

I got in touch with this group that call themselves "Ecclesia" through a webpage you put up here on this forum. It happens they have a fellowship in Ibadan.

Do you know anything about them?

DrummaBoy: Well said Frosbel

I got in touch with this group that call themselves "Ecclesia" through a webpage you put up here on this forum. It happens they have a fellowship in Ibadan.

Do you know anything about them?

Not really, I saw a nice article they wrote and decided to post.

Btw , are you in Ibadan ? I went to UI , Ibadan is one of my preferred homes in Nigeria , really miss it

Thanks.

Useless talk. The story of lazarus is NEVER a parable. It remains one truth hunting you. Probably your greatest fears. You keep wishing it was a parable and you want to deceive people with your demonic comparison? Sorry, late. Same message you are condemning was what God used to minister to someone here recently and she prayed and got saved. Stop your demonic teachings frosbel.

alexleo: Useless talk. The story of lazarus is NEVER a parable. It remains one truth hunting you. Probably your greatest fears. You keep wishing it was a parable and you want to deceive people with your demonic comparison? Sorry, late. Same message you are condemning was what God used to minister to someone here recently and she prayed and got saved. Stop your demonic teachings frosbel.

But the bible states clearly that it is a parable na, who are we to believe? You or the holy scriptures?

Pastor Kun:

But the bible states clearly that it is a parable ne, who are we to believe? You or the holy scriptures?

Where did the bible call it a parable? The structure of that story is different from that of parables. Which parable were people's names mentioned?

alexleo:

Where did the bible call it a parable? The structure of that story is different from that of parables. Which parable were people's names mentioned?

But the preceding stories were all parables, what makes this one differrent ?

- Besides , what was the rich man's name ?

- Does a supposed disembodied soul have a body that can drink water as this Rich MAN wanted to , if this offer had been granted ?

- If Lazarus was prevented from going back from the dead to warn his brethren because the scriptures were sufficient for them to repent , why should we accept stories of HELL from people who have supposedly come back from the dead in contrast to this parable or story of you like ?

- Why is the devil and his henchmen roaming the earth when weaker human beings are in torment , some for over 5000 years ?

busy nw bt wil come bk later.

frosbel:

But the preceding stories were all parables, what makes this one differrent ?

- Besides , what was the rich man's name ?

- Does a supposed disembodied soul have a body that can drink water as this Rich MAN wanted to , if this offer had been granted ?

- If Lazarus was prevented from going back from the dead to warn his brethren because the scriptures were sufficient for them to repent , why should we accept stories of HELL from people who have supposedly come back from the dead in contrast to this parable or story of you like ?

- Why is the devil and his henchmen roaming the earth when weaker human beings are in torment , some for over 5000 years ?

Four charaacters were involved in that story and out of the four, three of them had their names mentioned. You cannot because one person's name was not mentioned conclude that it is a parable. Even in an exam, one over four is not a pass mark. In telling a real life stories, sometimes we don't even go into mentioning all the names involved. Some characters you just describe them by whatever they are known for. For example one can say- the mechanic, the trader, the director, the chairman, the lecturer, the student etc. And when you do that it doesn't change the reality of the story you are telling.
Again,. Lazarus had died, the rich man too and buried. What father Abraham turned down was the request for a dead man to rise and go and preach to the rich man's brethren. Did Abraham say its not possible to send a dead man to do that? No. He simply gave his reason that even if a dead man was sent,they will not listen to the dead if they can't listen to the prophets and is it not happening even in our time? Are people not rejecting the message of the reality of hell, both the ones being preached and the revelations?
Moreover, what God is showing these people is revelation though in our lay man's description we say they died and came back. Scientifically its described as a near-death experience, not death. Its all visions/revelations and the bible did not condemn visions. Visions are part of the medium through which God ministers to us. Even the prophets that father Abraham mentioned, they hear from God through visions/revelations etc. Vision/revelation is not ruled out in the bible. The only thing I agree is that the content of some of these testmonies are questionable yet there are others whose content are not questionable. You can't make a blanket statement classifying all the visions as demonic yet God is using some of them to minister to many people and they pray for salvation. Satan can NEVER be part of a story or testimony that will draw people to pray for the salvation of their souls. No.

It is really amazing that despite the simple English language frosbel is dodging Matthew 25:46, where Jesus uses the same word “eternal” in the same verse to refer to eternal punishment and eternal life. If life is eternal, then so is punishment. Also, Revelation 20:10 states that the devil, the beast, and the false prophet will be tormented in the lake of fire and brimstone “day and night forever and ever.” Then, just a few verses later (20:15), it states that all of those whose names are not found written in the book of life are also thrown into the lake of fire. “Day and night forever and ever” sure sounds eternal!. The doctrine about universalism and annihilationism of the wicked is nothing but the Seventh Day Adventists doctrines.

[quote author=alexleo]

Four charaacters were involved in that story and out of the four, three of them had their names mentioned. You cannot because one person's name was not mentioned conclude that it is a parable. Even in an exam, one over four is not a pass mark.

1/4 is not a passmark but in God's kingdom 3/4 is not a pass mark either, it is either 4/4 or 0/4.

Again,. Lazarus had died, the rich man too and buried. What father Abraham turned down was the request for a dead man to rise and go and preach to the rich man's brethren. Did Abraham say its not possible to send a dead man to do that? No. He simply gave his reason that even if a dead man was sent,they will not listen to the dead if they can't listen to the prophets and is it not happening even in our time? Are people not rejecting the message of the reality of hell, both the ones being preached and the revelations?

1. But the bible forbids the living from contacting the dead in any form or shape.

Deuteronomy 18:11
11 or a charmer or ba medium or a necromancer or cone who inquires of the dead,

2. Abraham referred this man's brothers to the scriptures which at that time consisted of the law and the prophets ( Torah). Same thing today , we are to consult the scriptures for all things that pertain unto salvation , not visions.

3. Jesus never asked us to preach a message on the reality of hell, this is what he commanded us to preach :

"15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned...." - Mark 16:15

Moreover, what God is showing these people is revelation though in our lay man's description we say they died and came back

God has sent his SON for our salvation, we have his word and his spirit, there is nothing else to add.

Scientifically its described as a near-death experience, not death.

Even atheists, Hindus , Buddhists and unbelievers have these dreams, it's all hallucinations, demonic divination or outright lies.

Its all visions/revelations and the bible did not condemn visions. Visions are part of the medium through which God ministers to us.

We are warned again that any other medium that is not Jesus Christ is FALSE , Jesus Christ is the only medium through which we come to know and find GOD , any other medium is witchcraft.

Leviticus 19:31
'Do not turn to mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be defiled by them. I am the LORD your God.' (NIV)

Even the prophets that father Abraham mentioned, they hear from God through visions/revelations etc.

I hope you know Abrham was referring to the law and the prophets as in the Torah ?

Vision/revelation is not ruled out in the bible.

In the Acts of the Apostles many visions occurred, not one of them involved a trip to hell or heaven, they were always for for propagation of the gospel or encouragement of the brethren.

That night Paul had a vision: A man from Macedonia in northern Greece was standing there, pleading with him, "Come over to Macedonia and help us!" - Acts 16:9

"One night the Lord spoke to Paul in a vision and told him, "Don't be afraid! Speak out! Don't be silent!" - Acts 18:9

Satan can NEVER be part of a story or testimony that will draw people to pray for the salvation of their souls. No.

"And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light." - 2 Corinthians 11:14

@alexleo,

thanks for answering one of my questions, I still need help on three more :

- Does a supposed disembodied soul have a body that can drink water as this Rich MAN wanted to , if this offer had been granted ?

- If Lazarus was prevented from going back from the dead to warn his brethren because the scriptures were sufficient for them to repent , why should we accept stories of HELL from people who have supposedly come back from the dead in contrast to this parable or story of you like ?

- Why is the devil and his henchmen roaming the earth when weaker human beings are in torment , some for over 5000 years ?

Bidam: It is really amazing that despite the simple English language frosbel is dodging Matthew 25:46, where Jesus uses the same word “eternal” in the same verse to refer to eternal punishment and eternal life.

But surely eternal means forever and by consequence a punishment with eternal consequences, I am not sure what the confusion is.

If life is eternal, then so is punishment

Stop rehashing the nonsense we once learned in church.

God has give man only 2 choices, Death or Life both of which impact MAN as a whole being and not some part of him.

"And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." - Genesis 3:22]

I am sure you do realise that this beautiful scripture totally debunks your myth that MAN livers forever irrespective of whether he is saved or not.

Also, Revelation 20:10 states that the devil, the beast, and the false prophet will be tormented in the lake of fire and brimstone “day and night forever and ever.” Then, just a few verses later (20:15), it states that all of those whose names are not found written in the book of life are also thrown into the lake of fire. “Day and night forever and ever” sure sounds eternal!. The doctrine about universalism and annihilationism of the wicked is nothing but the Seventh Day Adventists doctrines.

Let us study this scripture together :

13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

1. If there are people in HELL right now burning, are the people who are in the Sea also burning ?

2. v14 never mentions that the sinners will be tormented forever and ever, it simply says they will be thrown into the lake of fire - explain

3. If God has said he will swallow up death forever in Isaiah 25:8 and 1 Corinthians 15:54 , will death not be burning and tormented forever and ever according to scripture ? How then can it ever be defeated since the dead will be dying forever with no end.

4. In Rev 21:25 , there will be only DAY ,no more NIGHT. Also the bible says the wicked will be thrown into outer darkness, can you reconcile this day and night torment forever to the fact that there cannot day in a HELL or Night in a heaven ?

Thanks.

frosbel:

Not really, I saw a nice article they wrote and decided to post.

Btw , are you in Ibadan ? I went to UI , Ibadan is one of my preferred homes in Nigeria , really miss it

Thanks.

Yes, I live and work in Ibadan.

I hope you can visit us one of these days.

DrummaBoy:

Yes, I live and work in Ibadan.

I hope you can visit us one of these days.

It is a possibility, but currently in the UK, probably when I visit again , just recently came back after a short trip to Nigeria.

thanks.

The chapter begins with thus

Luk 16:1 ¶ And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods.

There is no mention of a parable here

When the story of Lazaraus was to start in verse 19, it said:

Luk 16:19 ¶ There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:


Luk 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

In the same way the story of Lazarus in introduced and was not said to be a parable either.

Is there any evidence that this story related by Jesus did not really happen but was a mere parable to illustrate a point?
And if it is a parable is, what could we conclude was the point Jesus was trying to make?

Read more www.tithing101.com

alexleo:

Four charaacters were involved in that story and out of the four, three of them had their names mentioned. You cannot because one person's name was not mentioned conclude that it is a parable. Even in an exam, one over four is not a pass mark. In telling a real life stories, sometimes we don't even go into mentioning all the names involved. Some characters you just describe them by whatever they are known for. For example one can say- the mechanic, the trader, the director, the chairman, the lecturer, the student etc. And when you do that it doesn't change the reality of the story you are telling.
Again,. Lazarus had died, the rich man too and buried. What father Abraham turned down was the request for a dead man to rise and go and preach to the rich man's brethren. Did Abraham say its not possible to send a dead man to do that? No. He simply gave his reason that even if a dead man was sent,they will not listen to the dead if they can't listen to the prophets and is it not happening even in our time? Are people not rejecting the message of the reality of hell, both the ones being preached and the revelations?
Moreover, what God is showing these people is revelation though in our lay man's description we say they died and came back. Scientifically its described as a near-death experience, not death. Its all visions/revelations and the bible did not condemn visions. Visions are part of the medium through which God ministers to us. Even the prophets that father Abraham mentioned, they hear from God through visions/revelations etc. Vision/revelation is not ruled out in the bible. The only thing I agree is that the content of some of these testmonies are questionable yet there are others whose content are not questionable. You can't make as blanket statement classifying all the visions as demonic yet God is using some of them to minister to many people and they pray for salvation. Satan can NEVER be part of a story or testimony that will draw people to pray for the salvation of their souls. No.

Having given Frosbel his question to chew and answer, this one is for you, Alex: thank God you mentioned Near Death Experiences (NDEs).An individual came here and began talking about NDEs that are very different from the ones you and Olaadegbu post here. How non Christians experience after life events that is far from eternal torture but simply bliss.

https://www.nairaland.com/1317012/amazing-accounts-near-death-experiences
http://www.near-death.com/smith.html

How do we explain them in the light of the Lazarus story, Frosbel's claim that there is no eternal torment but a lake of fire destruction; and your own interpretation of the Lazarus story? Is there a way to harmonize the three and come to a conclusion close to that of Frosbel? That Jesus was relating a parable indeed to teach a lesson?

From these questions I am neither for Frosbel or Alexleo; I just would want us to understand ourselves. Thanks.

frosbel: @alexleo,

thanks for answering one of my questions, I still need help on three more :

- If Lazarus was prevented from going back from the dead to warn his brethren because the scriptures were sufficient for them to repent , why should we accept stories of HELL from people who have supposedly come back from the dead in contrast to this parable or story of you like ?

-

The prophets being refered here are not only the ones in the bible because even the new testaments tells that some are called to be prophets, some pastors, some teachers so we can't conclude that it was only the scriptures that father Abraham refered him to.
Again these things are visions/revelations though some say they died and came back, some call it near death experience. And yes God can reveal things to a hindu, muslim, atheist etc.as a medium to pass a message or warning to him. Of course all those people who had this revelation repented and accepted Christ. This cannot be the devil. God speaks to man through every means he wants. He spoke through an animal in the scripture so God's medium of speaking to man is vast just that the content of the message does not contradict the bible.
I ll answer your other questons when am free.

frosbel:

But surely eternal means forever and by consequence a punishment with eternal consequences, I am not sure what the confusion is.

Now we agree that the punishment meted out by God to the wicked will be eternal no?

Stop rehashing the nonsense we once learned in church.

I am actually rehashing scripture not church doctrines.

God has give man only 2 choices, Death or Life both of which impact MAN as a whole being and not some part of him.

The bible is so clear that there's is an afterlife after death. That is God's design according to sacred scriptures.

"And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." - Genesis 3:22]

I am sure you do realise that this beautiful scripture totally debunks your myth that MAN livers forever irrespective of whether he is saved or not.

This scripture does not explain God's impending wrath on those that do not fear Him and keep his commandments.The temptation for our culture today is not physical persecution, but "dry rot," apathy, practical atheism, materialism, shallow Christianity with all benefits and no responsibility!

Let us study this scripture together :

13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

1. If there are people in HELL right now burning, are the people who are in the Sea also burning ?

2. v14 never mentions that the sinners will be tormented forever and ever, it simply says they will be thrown into the lake of fire - explain

3. If God has said he will swallow up death forever in Isaiah 25:8 and 1 Corinthians 15:54 , will death not be burning and tormented forever and ever according to scripture ? How then can it ever be defeated since the dead will be dying forever with no end.

4. In Rev 21:25 , there will be only DAY ,no more NIGHT. Also the bible says the wicked will be thrown into outer darkness, can you reconcile this day and night torment forever to the fact that there cannot day in a HELL or Night in a heaven ?

Thanks.

“Death and Hades” represent the fact of dying and the condition entered on after death. When non-believers die before the great white throne judgment, they go to hades. “Hades” is not the final judgment. The holding cell for a death-row inmate is not the final step. Execution is that prisoner’s final judgment.

These are temporary hells, a holding place until the final judgment. At the final judgment, God will raise non-believers out of these temporary hells to be judged at the great white throne. Then He will cast them into the permanent lake of fire. The idea of “giving up the dead” has to do with restoring physical bodies to their spirits. Their physical bodies long died but their spirits were in hades. Although the sea swallowed up a person hundreds of years ago, God will restore that body to judgment in hell. From this point on, there will be no more death ( 1 Cor 15:24-28). God will cast death and hades into the lake of fire. This is hell, the place of eternal punishment.

Rev 21:25 "In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed" This is an allusion to Isa. 60:11 or Zech. 14:6-7. The concept of darkness in the Bible is often a metaphor for evil (see. Matt. 6:23; 8:12; 22:13; 25:30). Light and dark were especially important symbolic theological contrasts for John (see. John 1:4-5, 7-9; 3:19-21; 8:12; 11:9-10; 12:35-36,46; I John 1:5-7; 2:8-11). The gates never close symbolizing openness, availability, no fear of attack for the righteous of cos.You need to read revelations in a chronological order and stop cherry picking to suit your doctrine of no hell.

Bidam: Now we agree that the punishment meted out by God to the wicked will be eternal no?

Absolutely, a punishment of an eternal or everlasting nature.

I am actually rehashing scripture not church doctrines.

Keep deceiving yourself.

The bible is so clear that there's is an afterlife after death. That is God's design according to sacred scriptures.

Well, show us those scriptures that support this position.

This scripture does not explain God's impending wrath on those that do not fear Him and keep his commandments.The temptation for our culture today is not physical persecution, but "dry rot," apathy, practical atheism, materialism, shallow Christianity with all benefits and no responsibility!

I guess you must be more familiar with the bolded version of Christianity -

“Death and Hades” represent the fact of dying and the condition entered on after death. When non-believers die before the great white throne judgment, they go to hades. “Hades” is not the final judgment. The holding cell for a death-row inmate is not the final step. Execution is that prisoner’s final judgment.

But the holding cell for a death row inmate does not include torment or death until judgement has been passed, in your case you make GOD out to be less moral than an earthly judge , by suggesting that he punishes human beings in HELL before judgement. Does not make sense.

Bible quotes please !

These are temporary hells, a holding place until the final judgment. At the final judgment, God will raise non-believers out of these temporary hells to be judged at the great white throne. Then He will cast them into the permanent lake of fire.

100% TRASH !

The Bible says the dead will be raised from the dust of the earth where they are asleep in their graves.

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. - Daniel 12:2

"Don't be so surprised! Indeed, the time is coming when all the dead in their graves will hear the voice of God's Son" - John 5:28


God says the dead will be raised from the grave or dust of the earth, but Bidam says that the dead will be raised from HELL where people though dead are still alive.

You sir are a heretick and promoting a false doctrine that makes a mockery of the resurrection.

The idea of “giving up the dead” has to do with restoring physical bodies to their spirits. Their physical bodies long died but their spirits were in hades.

But if a MAN is dead bodily and alive spiritually, he is not really dead, he is alive , albeit in a different form , and therefore the resurrection is a big JOKE and formality.

Although the sea swallowed up a person hundreds of years ago, God will restore that body to judgment in hell. From this point on, there will be no more death ( 1 Cor 15:24-28). God will cast death and hades into the lake of fire. This is hell, the place of eternal punishment.

1. The Bible confirms that the dead are in 2 locations, not 1. Some are in Hades and others in the Sea. So if the dead in Hades are being tormented what about the dead in the Sea.

2. God says that DEATH will destroyed forever not hidden in the lake of fire - "The last enemy to be destroyed is death." - 1 Corinthians 15:26

Are you not a false teacher @ Bidam ?

Rev 21:25 "In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed" This is an allusion to Isa. 60:11 or Zech. 14:6-7. The concept of darkness in the Bible is often a metaphor for evil (see. Matt. 6:23; 8:12; 22:13; 25:30). Light and dark were especially important symbolic theological contrasts for John (see. John 1:4-5, 7-9; 3:19-21; 8:12; 11:9-10; 12:35-36,46; I John 1:5-7; 2:8-11). The gates never close symbolizing openness, availability, no fear of attack for the righteous of cos.You need to read revelations in a chronological order and stop cherry picking to suit your doctrine of no hell.

You are one BIG Dunce !!

frosbel:

Absolutely, a punishment of an eternal or everlasting nature.



Keep deceiving yourself.



Well, show us those scriptures that support this position.



I guess you must be more familiar with the bolded version of Christianity -




But the holding cell for a death row inmate does not include torment or death until judgement has been passed, in your case you make GOD out to be less moral than an earthly judge , by suggesting that he punishes human beings in HELL before judgement. Does not make sense.

Bible quotes please !



100% TRASH !

The Bible says the dead will be raised from the dust of the earth where they are asleep in their graves.

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. - Daniel 12:2

"Don't be so surprised! Indeed, the time is coming when all the dead in their graves will hear the voice of God's Son" - John 5:28


God says the dead will be raised from the grave or dust of the earth, but Bidam says that the dead will be raised from HELL where people though dead are still alive.

You sir are a heretick and promoting a false doctrine that makes a mockery of the resurrection.



But if a MAN is dead bodily and alive spiritually, he is not really dead, he is alive , albeit in a different form , and therefore the resurrection is a big JOKE and formality.



1. The Bible confirms that the dead are in 2 locations, not 1. Some are in Hades and others in the Sea. So if the dead in Hades are being tormented what about the dead in the Sea.

2. God says that DEATH will destroyed forever not hidden in the lake of fire - "The last enemy to be destroyed is death." - 1 Corinthians 15:26

Are you not a false teacher @ Bidam ?





You are one BIG Dunce !!

Another foolish unedifying arguments failing to address the relevant scriptures i quoted.There is a very clear distinction between spirit, soul and body stated in the pauline epistles which you are afraid of addressing in other threads.This is brought about by your foolish logical reasoning instead of accepting what the bible is saying on these things.Daniel 12 :2 which you quoted also buttressed my points further. Of cos folks who don't like to do indept bible studies and who are afraid of hell will follow your falsehoods.

"And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt."

a. Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake: the plainest meaning is that it refers to the resurrection of the body.The concept of death as sleep is also found in the NT (e.g. Matt. 27:52 [note resurrection]; John 11:11 [note resurrection in 11:25-26; 13:36; Acts 7:60; I Thess. 4:13 [note resurrection in 4:14-17]; 5:10).

b. Some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt: The Bible clearly teaches two resurrections, one for the saved and one for the damned (John 5:29; Revelation 20:4-6; Revelation 11-15). If we really believed every one of us will live forever, it would profoundly change our lives.

i. Everlasting contempt: The terror of hell never ends. There is not blissful annihilation after some period of punishment. You frosbel, not me is the dunce here.

Bidam: Another foolish unedifying arguments failing to address the relevant scriptures i quoted.There is a very clear distinction between spirit, soul and body stated in the pauline epistles which you are afraid of addressing in other threads.This is brought about by your foolish logical reasoning instead of accepting what the bible is saying on these things.

First things first , starting from the book of Genesis , Man is described as a living soul with the gift of life (spirit) in him encased within a body.

Without this gift of life or spirit of God Man is as dead as a dodo bird. This can easily be verified from Genesis 2 where Man was made from the dust of the earth and was non responsive to stimuli , in other words a state of 'death' , until God breathed life through his nostrils . Only then did Man become a 100% soul , not body or spirit.

The spirit represents our inner consciousness , our soul which is us is the seat of our will , emotion and intellect and works in liaison with our body not separate from it.

When man dies , Solomon , David and Job clearly implied that his spirit returns to God while Man returns to the dust from which he was made to sleep until resurrection day.

Man is not spirit , he is a soul when alive and a body when dead.

a. Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake: the plainest meaning is that it refers to the resurrection of the body.The concept of death as sleep is also found in the NT (e.g. Matt. 27:52 [note resurrection]; John 11:11 [note resurrection in 11:25-26; 13:36; Acts 7:60; I Thess. 4:13 [note resurrection in 4:14-17]; 5:10).

Stop talking nonsense, the resurrection applies to the whole person as it also applied to JESUS Christ who died 100% and was raised from dead 100%.

Our hope is always in resurrection not death , this has been made plain throughout scripture.

b. Some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt: The Bible clearly teaches two resurrections, one for the saved and one for the damned (John 5:29; Revelation 20:4-6; Revelation 11-15). If we really believed every one of us will live forever, it would profoundly change our lives.

To live forever is called eternal life , this is not something promised to sinners.

Additionally we change because of the word of GOD brought to life by the Spirit of GOD into our spirits , and we acting on this word in obedience to GOD.

No one changes or converts because of a fear of HELL , if this were the case the whole world should have converted.

i. Everlasting contempt: The terror of hell never ends. There is not blissful annihilation after some period of punishment. You frosbel, not me is the dunce here.

The terror of an everlasting Hell is a made up myth by SATAN and something which people like you who cannot rightly divide the word of GOD have swallowed hook line and sinker.

frosbel:

First things first , starting from the book of Genesis , Man is described as a living soul with the gift of life (spirit) in him encased within a body.

Without this gift of life or spirit of God Man is as dead as a dodo bird. This can easily be verified from Genesis 2 where Man was made from the dust of the earth and was non responsive to stimuli , in other words a state of 'death' , until God breathed life through his nostrils . Only then did Man become a 100% soul , not body or spirit.

The spirit represents our inner consciousness , our soul which is us is the seat of our will , emotion and intellect and works in liaison with our body not separate from it.

When man dies , Solomon , David and Job clearly implied that his spirit returns to God while Man returns to the dust from which he was made to sleep until resurrection day.

Man is not spirit , he is a soul when alive and a body when dead.

very much like you to ignore other relevant text in the NT and quote only this scripture to spread the sophistical conclusion that at death the body returns to dust and the soul becomes unconscious.

In Ecclesiastes we read “The dead know not anything” (Ecclesiastes 9:5). Certainly we all agree that a dead and deteriorating body has absolutely no consciousness of anything past, present, or future. But are the advocates of “soul-sleep” justified in using the above text as evidence of the unconscious state of the soul after death? We believe that this method using a text to support a false theory that elsewhere is denied in Scripture, proves that those who stoop to such methods either are untruthful or deficient. Those who teach “soul-sleep” will find it quite difficult to harmonize their views with other statements that are made by the same writer of Ecclesiastes:

Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7).


All go unto one place; for all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again (Ecclesiastes 3:20).


Now we know that this verse is speaking of the body, for in the next verse we read:

Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward? (Ecclesiastes 3:21).


In Scripture we read that man sleeps, but the sleep always is identified with the body. Never once does the Bible refer to the soul sleeping. Where some fall into danger is in identifying man merely with his body and in ignoring the fact that he is a triune being. Man is a trinity; body, soul and spirit. Now the body is not the whole man. Therefore it cannot be concluded that the death of the body is the death of the whole man.

Another misconstrued verse is found in the prophecy of Daniel where we read:

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt (Daniel 12:2). Which frosbel did quote earlier and is using now to justify this falsehood.

Man is a triune being because he is created in the image of God. “God said, Let us make man in Our image” (Genesis 1:26). We know that God is a Trinity. The Holy Trinity is clearly set forth in the Apostle Paul’s benediction that closed his Second Corinthian Epistle: “The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen” (2 Corinthians 13:14). Our Lord Himself said, in what we call “The Great Commission”: “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost” (Matthew 28:19). Created in the image of God, man is likewise a trinity. He has a spiritual nature that is separate and distinct from the body in which it dwells.

The two following passages from the Bible clearly establish the fact that man is a triune being composed of spirit, soul, and body:

I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Thessalonians 5:23).

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow (body), and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart (Hebrews 4:12).

In spite of the erroneous teaching of “Jehovah’s Witnesses” and of other false sects that “no man has a soul,” the Bible states emphatically that man was created a trinity of spirit, soul, and body even as the eternal God is Himself a trinity of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. The trinity of man is an essential part of the image relationship between him and God. Life is not ultimately physical and the body is not the whole man. And we might add that neither the body in itself, nor the soul in itself, nor the spirit in itself makes up the whole man, but he is “spirit and soul and body.” This must be seriously considered and definitely agreed to before we can comprehend with any accuracy the subject of life after death.

frosbel: @alexleo,


- Does a supposed disembodied soul have a body that can drink water as this Rich MAN wanted to , if this offer had been granted ?

Matthew10:28 says- 28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

The above scripture clearly makes us to know that the soul and the body are different. i.e. the soul is not the body and the body is not the soul. But a combination of the two is what makes up a human.
Here Jesus said we should not fear him who kills the body and cannot kill the soul. Why do we fear to be killed? Because of the pain. The statement Jesus made simply shows us that both the soul and body can be destroyed. If the soul and the body can be destroyed, and we are told to fear the one who can destroy the two, it means that the soul also can feel pain in destruction just like the body(or even feel more pain than the body). If not Jesus wouldnt have bothered to say what he said. Infact the statement shows that the destruction of the two is the worst. Yes the soul can feel what the body can feel so its not out of order for the rich man to be thirsty in a disembodied condition.(soul).

Bidam: very much like you to ignore other relevant text in the NT and quote only this scripture to spread the sophistical conclusion that at death the body returns to dust and the soul becomes unconscious.

In Ecclesiastes we read “The dead know not anything” (Ecclesiastes 9:5). Certainly we all agree that a dead and deteriorating body has absolutely no consciousness of anything past, present, or future. But are the advocates of “soul-sleep” justified in using the above text as evidence of the unconscious state of the soul after death? We believe that this method using a text to support a false theory that elsewhere is denied in Scripture, proves that those who stoop to such methods either are untruthful or deficient. Those who teach “soul-sleep” will find it quite difficult to harmonize their views with other statements that are made by the same writer of Ecclesiastes:

Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7).


All go unto one place; for all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again (Ecclesiastes 3:20).


Now we know that this verse is speaking of the body, for in the next verse we read:

Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward? (Ecclesiastes 3:21).


In Scripture we read that man sleeps, but the sleep always is identified with the body. Never once does the Bible refer to the soul sleeping. Where some fall into danger is in identifying man merely with his body and in ignoring the fact that he is a triune being. Man is a trinity; body, soul and spirit. Now the body is not the whole man. Therefore it cannot be concluded that the death of the body is the death of the whole man.

I will respond to this in detail this weekend, but next time please quote references, plagiarism is actually fraud.

I have kindly helped you post the link from where you photocopied this article, seems like you are running out of orignal ideas fast

https://bible.org/seriespage/consciousness-soul-after-death

alexleo:
Matthew10:28 says- 28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

The above scripture clearly makes us to know that the soul and the body are different. i.e. the soul is not the body and the body is not the soul. But a combination of the two is what makes up a human.
Here Jesus said we should not fear him who kills the body and cannot kill the soul. Why do we fear to be killed? Because of the pain. The statement Jesus made simply shows us that both the soul and body can be destroyed. If the soul and the body can be destroyed, and we are told to fear the one who can destroy the two, it means that the soul also can feel pain in destruction just like the body(or even feel more pain than the body). If not Jesus wouldnt have bothered to say what he said. Infact the statement shows that the destruction of the two is the worst. Yes the soul can feel what the body can feel so its not out of order for the rich man to be thirsty in a disembodied condition.(soul).

You have not answered my question Sir.

Can a Soul drink water ?

Bidam:


Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7).


All go unto one place; for all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again (Ecclesiastes 3:20).


Now we know that this verse is speaking of the body, for in the next verse we read:

Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward? (Ecclesiastes 3:21).


In Scripture we read that man sleeps, but the sleep always is identified with the body. Never once does the Bible refer to the soul sleeping. Where some fall into danger is in identifying man merely with his body and in ignoring the fact that he is a triune being. Man is a trinity; body, soul and spirit. Now the body is not the whole man. Therefore it cannot be concluded that the death of the body is the death of the whole man.

From d definition of the pagan doctrine called the trinity can we say the spirit,soul and body are 3 distinct persons??.....


And please what do you understand by the spirit that returns back to God after a man dies??......

Bidam:

Another misconstrued verse is found in the prophecy of Daniel where we read:

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt (Daniel 12:2). Which frosbel did quote earlier and is using now to justify this falsehood.

Man is a triune being because he is created in the image of God. “God said, Let us make man in Our image” (Genesis 1:26). We know that God is a Trinity. The Holy Trinity is clearly set forth in the Apostle Paul’s benediction that closed his Second Corinthian Epistle: “The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen” (2 Corinthians 13:14). Our Lord Himself said, in what we call “The Great Commission”: “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost” (Matthew 28:19). Created in the image of God, man is likewise a trinity. He has a spiritual nature that is separate and distinct from the body in which it dwells.

I don't even see how these verses prove the trinity teaching......

In all of it all I see one person standing out as the one GOD and that is the Father and not a combination of the rest acclaimed co -eternal Gods.....

Now back to the topic....
Is your spirit, body and soul different persons??.......since you have wrenched what it means when it is said we are made in Gods image......I wonder what you would say of Jesus who is also an image of God....

Is Jesus tripartite too??.....

Confusion galore

Bidam:

The two following passages from the Bible clearly establish the fact that man is a triune being composed of spirit, soul, and body:

I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Thessalonians 5:23).

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow (body), and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart (Hebrews 4:12).

In spite of the erroneous teaching of “Jehovah’s Witnesses” and of other false sects that “no man has a soul,” the Bible states emphatically that man was created a trinity of spirit, soul, and body even as the eternal God is Himself a trinity of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. The trinity of man is an essential part of the image relationship between him and God. Life is not ultimately physical and the body is not the whole man. And we might add that neither the body in itself, nor the soul in itself, nor the spirit in itself makes up the whole man, but he is “spirit and soul and body.” This must be seriously considered and definitely agreed to before we can comprehend with any accuracy the subject of life after death.

And after a well copy and paste post the question arises.....

Where is the soul and spirit of adam the oga who landed us in this wahala??......

I can't even believe you would read hebrews 4:12 and apply it to man been tripartite..........and u forgot to classify thoughts and intentions in that verse....

In which group do we put thoughts and intentions??....under soul,spirit or body??....

Smh!!!!!!.......

DrummaBoy:


Having given Frosbel his question to chew and answer, this one is for you, Alex: thank God you mentioned Near Death Experiences (NDEs).An individual came here and began talking about NDEs that are very different from the ones you and Olaadegbu post here. How non Christians experience after life events that is far from eternal torture but simply bliss.

https://www.nairaland.com/1317012/amazing-accounts-near-death-experiences
http://www.near-death.com/smith.html

How do we explain them in the light of the Lazarus story, Frosbel's claim that there is no eternal torment but a lake of fire destruction; and your own interpretation of the Lazarus story? Is there a way to harmonize the three and come to a conclusion close to that of Frosbel? That Jesus was relating a parable indeed to teach a lesson?

From these questions I am neither for Frosbel or Alexleo; I just would want us to understand ourselves. Thanks.

I didnt go through much of the NDE thread. I just read some of it so i may not give a comprehensive reply but from the one i read, It wasnt mentioned whether the person who experienced the bliss was saved or not. The story of Lazarus in summary tells us that there is a place of comfort for the righteous (which father Abraham and Lazarus represented) and a place of torment for those who have not repented(which the rich man represented). Now, Jesus warned us about this same hell in several places that does not in anyway portray it as the grave as some people wants us to believe. If hell was just grave then there wouldnt have been need for such series of warning about it and its torments.
If somebody tells me that he had a vision of hell and the description of hell he gives me tallies with that of a place of torment then i wont call that a lie. but if someone tells me he had a revelation of hell and describes it as a place of comfort and rest then i would reject his message because his description runs in contrast with the place of torment as described by Jesus.
The rich man didnt give much details about the torments he was passing through but just said he was being tormented in the flames. He didnt say he was being tormented BY the flames rather IN the flames. Torments can come in various forms but we are not given details of the torment in this case so we leave it at that.
In the case of the NDEs presented here by the guy you mentioned i cant say much about them because i didnt read much of it but the one i read i cant remember seeing them them mention what tallies with what is in the scriptures(but if am wrong you correct me since you read it well) and i cant also say that they did not experience it. It will be unfair for anyone to say that what he has not experienced does not exist. This is the problem we are having with atheists today, They said they have not experienced God and therefore he does not exist. yet those of us who have experienced God knows that he exists.
Moreover, we cant understand all the mysteries of life with our limited brain. I cant remember anywhere that the bible mentioned all the planets that we have seen the scientists discover, yet they are there and they visit them. These and more are part of the mysteries which we will understand fully when we get to heaven.

frosbel:

You have not answered my question Sir.

Can a Soul drink water ?

Since the soul can feel pain just like the body as described by Jesus in the scripture i quoted, then it can also drink water just like the body. Or do you have any scripture that says the soul cannot drink water or feel pain like the body? pls present it for me to take correction.

frosbel:

Stop talking nonsense, the resurrection applies to the whole person as it also applied to JESUS Christ who died 100% and was raised from dead 100%.

Our hope is always in resurrection not death , this has been made plain throughout scripture.




To live forever is called eternal life , this is not something promised to sinners.

Additionally we change because of the word of GOD brought to life by the Spirit of GOD into our spirits , and we acting on this word in obedience to GOD.

No one changes or converts because of a fear of HELL , if this were the case the whole world should have converted.



The terror of an everlasting Hell is a made up myth by SATAN and something which people like you who cannot rightly divide the word of GOD have swallowed hook line and sinker.

The resurrection body of Christ was characterized as having flesh and bones, but He did not seem to be restricted by physical barriers. This is evident in the fact that He could enter closed rooms without apparent difficulty (Luke 24:36; John 20:19). And that is very much different from when a man dies,and as for the other replies i have shown you what dan 12:2 is actually saying yours is just a mere philosophical replies and not what the scriptures are truly saying.

alexleo:

Since the soul can feel pain just like the body as described by Jesus in the scripture i quoted, then it can also drink water just like the body. Or do you have any scripture that says the soul cannot drink water or feel pain like the body? pls present it for me to take correction.

What is the purpose of a SOUL drinking water ? Does it have a digestive system ?

Thanks.