First and most importantly, I am a christain.
There is this problem I encountered while fliping through some pages with my mind.
That is, can we be justified when we chose not to forgive someone who continously wrong us but is yet to ask for forgiveness?
If yes, wouldn't that weaken our lord's prayer?
If no, can God forgive a serial sinner who is without remorse?
If yes, wouldn't it show a mark of contradiction on the person of God?
I need answers, please.

Permit me to give you rapid fire answers here

Reyginus: First and most importantly, I am a christain.
There is this problem I encountered while fliping through some pages with my mind.
That is, can we be justified when we chose not to forgive someone who continously wrong us but is yet to ask for forgiveness?
If yes, wouldn't that weaken our lord's prayer?
If no, can God forgive a serial sinner who is without remorse?
If yes, wouldn't it show a mark of contradiction on the person of God?
I need answers, please.

1. That is, can we be justified when we chose not to forgive someone who continously wrong us but is yet to ask for forgiveness?

You are NOT justified to do this.

2. If yes, wouldn't that weaken our lord's prayer?
3. If no, can God forgive a serial sinner who is without remorse?
4. If yes, wouldn't it show a mark of contradiction on the person of God?

Questions 2,3 and 4 disintegrate following from the answer to question 1

Mr anony: Permit me to give you rapid fire answers here




You are NOT justified to do this.


Questions 2,3 and 4 disintegrate following from the answer to question 1

Slight oversight on your part. Can you appreciate your answer 'No' with number 3?

Reyginus: Slight oversight on your part. Can you appreciate your answer 'No' with number 3?

My apologies, I was too hasty.

For question number 3, the answer is simple. God has already granted us forgiveness through Christ Jesus (while we were yet sinners), it is now left to us to accept His gift which He has freely given. As I always say, God will not force us into Heaven against our will.

You are not justified to bear grudges until the offender pleads for mercy however, you can have mercy and yet the offender can choose to reject mercy and you cannot force mercy upon the person.

Matt.18:35:-So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Matt.6:15:-But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Mark 11:26:-But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.
(All Authorised KJV).

Mr anony:
My apologies, I was too hasty.

For question number 3, the answer is simple. God has already granted us forgiveness through Christ Jesus (while we were yet sinners), it is now left to us to accept His gift which He has freely given. As I always say, God will not force us into Heaven against our will.

You are not justified to bear grudges until the offender pleads for mercy however, you can have mercy and yet the offender can choose to reject mercy and you cannot force mercy upon the person.

It's like I have to make the question clear.
My question is this, why is it a sin when we refuse to forgive an offender who is yet to ask for forgiveness, but not a sin when God forgives not a sinner until he asks for forgiveness?

bizmahn: Matt.18:35:-So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Matt.6:15:-But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Mark 11:26:-But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.
(All Authorised KJV).

Explain.

Reyginus: It's like I have to make the question clear.
My question is this, why is it a sin when we refuse to forgive an offender who is yet to ask for forgiveness, but not a sin when God forgives not a sinner until he asks for forgiveness?

But God has already forgiven us by sending Christ to die for us while we were still sinners. The question before us now is whether we will repent from our sins and accept Christ.

1. God will still love you & allow all good to abound towards you when you haven't asked for forgiveness.But because of the wicked nature of man,you observe that man will hate,and withdraw all good & favour towards an individual & even seek the persons hurt except he asks for forgiveness.So God requires you to forgive to withhold you from revenge & harmful intent your nature,the devil or fellow men will move you to accomplish.
2. God requires us to ask for forgiveness because of His major interest of having us halt that very transgression.The main ingredient or requirement which God is looking for in a sinners prayer for forgiveness is the FIRM RESOLVE to cease from that particular sin being confessed.Unfortunately many confess without any intent to cease from that sin & continue as before afterwards.
3. It is only when you have asked for pardon & resolved to stop the evil that God can apply the blood of Jesus & silence the accusation of the devil who is earnestly accusing you & presenting good reasons why God should allow him to afflict you or take your life & send you to hell.God needs your pardon plea to silence the devil & apply the blood.So you see there are spiritual laws & proceedures which even the devil is aware of but which unfortunately we men don't know or neglect.So when God tells you to do something do it without asking questions.He's not trying to be overbearing or demanding but seeking your good that moment.

Mr anony:
My apologies, I was too hasty.

For question number 3, the answer is simple. God has already granted us forgiveness through Christ Jesus (while we were yet sinners), it is now left to us to accept His gift which He has freely given. As I always say, God will not force us into Heaven against our will.

You are not justified to bear grudges until the offender pleads for mercy however, you can have mercy and yet the offender can choose to reject mercy and you cannot force mercy upon the person.

The bolded is a big lie.
There is no forgiveness from god.
How can you even think that?
A god that holds a 200,000 yr old grudge against Adam, an equivalent of a newborn child in the garden of eden?
A god that holds the same grudge against Adams future generations, all of humankind for that matter, and then requires blood sacrifice as atonement?
C'mon, give me a break. Think man, think.

Where in the bible did Yahweh ever forgive any transgressor with out first punishing that person or group and their offsprings? Read your bible, man.

And by the way, if god has forgiven humanity for Adam's sin, then WTF(excuse my language) is hell being kept warm for?
The fact that hell exist is clear contradiction of the ridiculous delusion that god forgives.

What is the purpose of commandments if there are no statutory punishment for transgressions?

The idea, more like delusions of forgiveness, is just another one of those contradictory delusions that only makes sense to those who ingest the opium of blind faith religion.

plaetton:

The bolded is a big lie.
There is no forgiveness from god.
How can you even think that?
A god that holds a 200,000 yr old grudge against Adam, an equivalent of a newborn child in the garden of eden?
A god that holds the same grudge against Adams future generations, all of humankind for that matter, and then requires blood sacrifice as atonement?
C'mon, give me a break. Think man, think.

Where in the bible did Yahweh ever forgive any transgressor with out first punishing that person or group and their offsprings? Read your bible, man.

And by the way, if god has forgiven humanity for Adam's sin, then WTF(excuse my language) is hell being kept warm for?
The fact that hell exist is clear contradiction of the ridiculous delusion that god forgives.

What is the purpose of commandments if there are no statutory punishment for transgressions?

The idea, more like delusions of forgiveness, is just another one of those contradictory delusions that only makes sense to those who ingest the opium of blind faith religion.

Ok, you have had your little rant. You can move along now.

Mr anony:
But God has already forgiven us by sending Christ to die for us while we were still sinners. The question before us now is whether we will repent from our sins and accept Christ.

I don't think that is the case. Let's say we repent and accept christ, but as humans, we still commit sin, will God then forgive us without our asking because of our repentance?

bizmahn: 1. God will still love you & allow all good to abound towards you when you haven't asked for forgiveness.But because of the wicked nature of man,you observe that man will hate,and withdraw all good & favour towards an individual & even seek the persons hurt except he asks for forgiveness.So God requires you to forgive to withhold you from revenge & harmful intent your nature,the devil or fellow men will move you to accomplish.
2. God requires us to ask for forgiveness because of His major interest of having us halt that very transgression.The main ingredient or requirement which God is looking for in a sinners prayer for forgiveness is the FIRM RESOLVE to cease from that particular sin being confessed.Unfortunately many confess without any intent to cease from that sin & continue as before afterwards.
3. It is only when you have asked for pardon & resolved to stop the evil that God can apply the blood of Jesus & silence the accusation of the devil who is earnestly accusing you & presenting good reasons why God should allow him to afflict you or take your life & send you to hell.God needs your pardon plea to silence the devil & apply the blood.So you see there are spiritual laws & proceedures which even the devil is aware of but which unfortunately we men don't know or neglect.So when God tells you to do something do it without asking questions.He's not trying to be overbearing or demanding but seeking your good that moment.

Thank you very much. The question now is, why are we expected to forgive even those who show no remorse when God will not do the same?

Reyginus: It's like I have to make the question clear.
My question is this, why is it a sin when we refuse to forgive an offender who is yet to ask for forgiveness, but not a sin when God forgives not a sinner until he asks for forgiveness?

you need to get this clear. God has made is mercy to be fixed in a position(this is my own view though). It is left for the sinner to walk to the mercy and claim the forgiveness through Jesus. So God sin not. And he expect you to do the same towards your neighbour and it will be no sin on your own part but if you don't, then you have broken the rules.

Reyginus: It's like I have to make the question clear.
My question is this, why is it a sin when we refuse to forgive an offender who is yet to ask for forgiveness, but not a sin when God forgives not a sinner until he asks for forgiveness?

you need to get this clear. God has made is mercy to be fixed in a position(this is my own view though). It is left for the sinner to walk to the mercy and claim the forgiveness through Jesus. So God sin not. And he expect you to do the same towards your neighbour and it will be no sin on your own part but if you don't, then you have broken the rules.

Reyginus: It's like I have to make the question clear.
My question is this, why is it a sin when we refuse to forgive an offender who is yet to ask for forgiveness, but not a sin when God forgives not a sinner until he asks for forgiveness?

you need to get this clear. God has made is mercy to be fixed in a position(this is my own view though). It is left for the sinner to walk to the mercy and claim the forgiveness through Jesus. So God sin not. And he expect you to do the same towards your neighbour and it will be no sin on your own part but if you don't, then you have broken the rules.

Reyginus: It's like I have to make the question clear.
My question is this, why is it a sin when we refuse to forgive an offender who is yet to ask for forgiveness, but not a sin when God forgives not a sinner until he asks for forgiveness?

you need to get this clear. God has made is mercy to be fixed in a position(this is my own view though). It is left for the sinner to walk to the mercy and claim the forgiveness through Jesus. So God sin not. And he expect you to do the same towards your neighbour and it will be no sin on your own part but if you don't, then you have broken the rules.

Mr anony:
Ok, you have had your little rant. You can move along now.

The sad truth, Anony, is that you cannot point out anywhere in the bible where yahweh, your god, forgave anyone without first exacting punishment.

I am daring you.

All the new testament ramblings about forgiveness were not directly from yahweh, but are just assumptions and delusional fantasies of people who were trying to attract converts to a new religion.
The idea of forgiveness of all sins was, and is still very appealing simply because it takes away the burden of accountability and personal responsibility.
It was no wonder that the majority of the early converts of christianity were wicked men like Paul, robbers, prostitutes, vagabonds and all sorts of criminals.
Even Emperor Constantine, ,mass murderer who murdered his entire kins for power, found christianity particularly appealing because of the promise of forgiveness, something that his original religion of Mithraism did not offer.

Unfortunately, this forgiveness delusion has also been the undoing of Christianity.
By taking away accountability and personal responsibility and then replacing both with blind faith in the salvation through Jesus and guaranteed forgiveness of sins, the average christian, the priesthood, the bishopric, can freely and arbitrarily shift moral goalposts from time to time, knowing that the forgiveness card is just a prayer away.

No wonder that christianity has never ever measured up to the lofty moral standards that it has always pretended to guard and protect.

Reyginus: I don't think that is the case. Let's say we repent and accept christ, but as humans, we still commit sin, will God then forgive us without our asking because of our repentance?

That's a very good question. Now let us look at it with a bit more depth.

Think about these critically.

1. Why would someone who loves God commit sin and not repent of it? Does such a person really love God, is such a person saved?
Imagine you had a wife and you installed video cameras all over your house. While you were at work, your wife committed adultery with the houseboy and was caught on camera. Your wife knows that you saw the video yet she feels no remorse about what she did. Can you really say that this woman is your wife in the right sense of the word?

2. Despite all this, you love your wife and will readily forgive her. You open your arms wide and invite her to embrace you reassuring her that she is forgiven, yet she refuses and turns her back to you. Should you force her into your embrace?

3. Christ has made the sacrifice for our sins once and for all. The Father calls out to us to come unto him. If we reject His grace, God will not force us into eternal life against our will.

I smell chicken.

I agree with Mr Anony. Consider forgiveness like an official pardon granted by a president, king, governor, emperor or some oga at the top. It's made out and available, but the person to be pardoned must accept it in order to be free of the judgment they are under.

@OP

To forgive is not as human traditions interpret forgiveness. To forgive simply means to judge righteously, that is: not based on the laws of Moses(which is designed to be against our God given natures) but based on the law of liberty(from the Law), through christ, that understands our natures, Therefore it judges based on a man's nature, heart and honesty rather than based on whether a man hides behind the laws of moses to commit his acts.

So if a man offends me, then I(as a christian) can judge him, but not according to the laws of Moses. I can judge whether his actions are understandable (according to his nature and conscience) or whether they are out of greed or hatred. The laws of Moses has no way of determining these motivations because they rely on the literalness of the letters of the book.

Therefore only God judges righteously, and anyone who abides by the true christian doctrine.

So Forgiveness does not mean: "No Judgment", Rather it means: "Righteous Judgment";

daviddext: you need to get this clear. God has made is mercy to be fixed in a position(this is my own view though). It is left for the sinner to walk to the mercy and claim the forgiveness through Jesus. So God sin not. And he expect you to do the same towards your neighbour and it will be no sin on your own part but if you don't, then you have broken the rules.

That's my reason for bringing up this problem.
I know God cannot sin. I believe it must be a case of a lower being not equal in reasoning to a higher one. But I also still believe brethrens here will help.
..
Let me get you right. Is forgiveness dependent on remorse, to be actualized?

plaetton:

The sad truth, Anony, is that you cannot point out anywhere in the bible where yahweh, your god, forgave anyone without first exacting punishment.

I am daring you.

All the new testament ramblings about forgiveness were not directly from yahweh, but are just assumptions and delusional fantasies of people who were trying to attract converts to a new religion.
The idea of forgiveness of all sins was, and is still very appealing simply because it takes away the burden of accountability and personal responsibility.
It was no wonder that the majority of the early converts of christianity were wicked men like Paul, robbers, prostitutes, vagabonds and all sorts of criminals.
Even Emperor Constantine, ,mass murderer who murdered his entire kins for power, found christianity particularly appealing because of the promise of forgiveness, something that his original religion of Mithraism did not offer.

Unfortunately, this forgiveness delusion has also been the undoing of Christianity.
By taking away accountability and personal responsibility and then replacing both with blind faith in the salvation through Jesus and guaranteed forgiveness of sins, the average christian, the priesthood, the bishopric, can freely and arbitrarily shift moral goalposts from time to time, knowing that the forgiveness card is just a prayer away.

No wonder that christianity has never ever measured up to the lofty moral standards that it has always pretended to guard and protect.

Plaetton, cool down. This is not an opportunity to bash God.
Bewarned!

Mr anony:
That's a very good question. Now let us look at it with a bit more depth.

Think about these critically.

1. Why would someone who loves God commit sin and not repent of it? Does such a person really love God, is such a person saved?
Imagine you had a wife and you installed video cameras all over your house. While you were at work, your wife committed adultery with the houseboy and was caught on camera. Your wife knows that you saw the video yet she feels no remorse about what she did. Can you really say that this woman is your wife in the right sense of the word?

2. Despite all this, you love your wife and will readily forgive her. You open your arms wide and invite her to embrace you reassuring her that she is forgiven, yet she refuses and turns her back to you. Should you force her into your embrace?

3. Christ has made the sacrifice for our sins once and for all. The Father calls out to us to come unto him. If we reject His grace, God will not force us into eternal life against our will.

1. You know, anyone can also create a situation that potrays a similar scenerio, but with men as the involved parties.
In the same vein, one can have an unrepentant child who have choosen to bring his father and reputation to shame.
What the thing here is, so long you cannot/haven't break the bond establishing the fact that he is your child, to claim that he's no longer your child, I think is merely a delusion.
The same goes for my wife. In as much as the bond that binds us together is still intact, whatever I claim of her that permits the opposite, is also a case of delusion.
In the same light, we cannot claim not to be from God, or God claim not to be our creator.
2. Here, I also think that you are placing the burden of forgiveness on the person who faulted.
To answer your question, one thing is certain. That is, you are not to force anybody into your embrace. But I also think , you can still forgive her, as in, with no grudges attached, and wait patiently wait for her acceptance. That is, if you really care.
Necessarily, to forgive, I think should not involve the reactions of the offender who instituted the injury in the first place.
3. I agree with this. Only where I find a problem with is this, a forgiveness performed with the intention of gaining converts and not for the good of the act itself, cannot be termed the forgiveness.
It is parralel to people who love God because they want to make heaven and not for what He really is, have been and ever will be.

Ihedinobi: I agree with Mr Anony. Consider forgiveness like an official pardon granted by a president, king, governor, emperor or some oga at the top. It's made out and available, but the person to be pardoned must accept it in order to be free of the judgment they are under.

That is a nice one. In the same sense, can you also say that we cannot really talk about forgiving those who wronged us, so long they are not willing to accept the forgiveness?

okeyxyz: @OP

To forgive is not as human traditions interpret forgiveness. To forgive simply means to judge righteously, that is: not based on the laws of Moses(which is designed to be against our God given natures) but based on the law of liberty(from the Law), through christ, that understands our natures, Therefore it judges based on a man's nature, heart and honesty rather than based on whether a man hides behind the laws of moses to commit his acts.

Nice one. But you only defined what you think forgiveness is. What I'm asking for is how it can be interpreted in the light of the questions above?

okeyxyz: So if a man offends me, then I(as a christian) can judge him, but not according to the laws of Moses. I can judge whether his actions are understandable (according to his nature and conscience) or whether they are out of greed or hatred. The laws of Moses has no way of determining these motivations because they rely on the literalness of the letters of the book.

Therefore only God judges righteously, and anyone who abides by the true christian doctrine.

Do you understand that what you are saying is synonymous to saying we cannot know when we forgive or are forgiven?
Is it not?

Its So Funny when one who dnt understand d concept of Forgiveness seeks for its understanding and yet do not want to Learn all it means to Forgive..........I


Wats d weather gonna b lyk sef
Bia Reyginus where did u keep mi Ga**I
Bring am awt Nw

Reyginus: That is a nice one. In the same sense, can you also say that we cannot really talk about forgiving those who wronged us, so long they are not willing to accept the forgiveness?

I don't see how we cannot. Forgiveness does not of itself free an offender from the consequences of their offence if they do not take advantage of it.

Let's talk about what happens when someone offends us. Jesus tells us that when that happens we should go to the offender and tell them of their offence. The point of doing so is that forgiveness is meaningless if offence is not established.

The point of involving more people is to keep giving them room and latitude to repent their wrong. The other people are to help establish the offence and bring to the offender's consciousness the need for reparation.

What does Jesus say we should do if they remain obstinate about their offence, do you remember? I'd like you to post it if you do. Your answer is in there.

Jesus's Work was two-sided: to make clear that there was offence and to provide pardon for it. So, man is without excuse. Offence must be repaired.

Preaching the Gospel means that we tell men that they are offenders and are under judgment but that they have an escape - a pardon in Christ Jesus. It's up to them to accept it or reject it and remain under judgment.

dont confuse urself OP. God forgives and xpect humans to 4gv. but the situation where we humans commit repeated sin we will be punished 4 the sins even after asking 4 4gviness. it like a gal who is sexually careless who didnt heed to the warnings her parent and elders, until she got impregnated in order to cover up her tracks she went 4 abort thereby damaging her womb which rendered her barren. Now she's a faithful worker in the church doing the things of GOD zealously and faithfully. note she has been forgiven by her parents and GOD but the scar of her past life will serve as a reminder of how sin is. likewise a young boy of 4 who likes damaging things when throwing tantrums is being flogged by his parent will curb the habit on seeing the cane with which he was beaten with. God xpect us 2 4give out of love because christ did the same but whereby a person offends u repeatedly without showing remorse God who is the judge of man's character will ensure the person suffers the consequences because he said in the bible that vegeance is his. Note during the old testament the grace of GOD we this millenium generation are xperiencing nau wasn't given to that generation then. God had to deal with them in a hard way cause they were very rebellious even the great prophet moses was made to sin thereby rendering his life mission shortcutted. it took GOD grace to get his body 4rm evil demons. those days u dare not repeat sins or u become poor out of too much burnt sacrifice or struck by GOD.

Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us does not mean you go back to that person and be the person's best friend when you know that you cannot change them . Give him/her space does not make the both of you enemies. You cannot keep a piece of meat and expect the rat not to touch.