Salaam,

I have realised that Tbaba is the chief Philosopher here and so, I want to direct a tough question I found online from a troubled young man about the Ummah and Allah to Tbaba;

Khalid:
Do we really worship an almighty God as muslims?
We all know that Allah is Al-Mutakabbir (the supreme) but I am really in doubt of this when I think about the situation we muslims are in today.

We say that our religion is perfect and our God is the almighty but we muslims are being bullied by the West. Our countries invaded for oil, our Prophet mocked and caricatured by Europeans, our brothers referred to as "terrorists" and our sisters ridiculed as "caged ninja women". We are oppressed. Why is Allah not helping us against the non-believers who disrespect us and our religion?

Our countries depend on American and Japanese technology. Saudi Arabia, UAE and other oil rich countries use American systems to drill and refine oil. The sultans and sheiks drive German Mercedes Benzs. We are dependent on the West. We are dominated. An American christian once asked me- "how many muslims have walked on the moon"?

If we are worshiping an almighty God, why are the Ummah so oppressed? Why are we not as technologically advanced as the West? Why are we "backbenchers"?

The question is dumb... The guy should go and read his Quran and some history.

https://www.nairaland.com/1068269/islamic-civilisation-islamic-law-reforming

This might also be helpful.

tbaba1234: The question is dumb... The guy should go and read his Quran and some history.

Sorry.

I actually thought it was interesting and also believed that he could find answers here.

Well, I am truly sorry for wasting your time.

Like I said, all he needs to do is read his Quran.

.....God does not change the condition of a people unless they change what is in themselves, but if He wills harm on a people, no one can ward it off–apart from Him, they have no protector (Surah 13:11)

you are sure to be tested through your possessions and persons; you are sure to hear much that is hurtful from those who were given the Scripture before you and from those who associate others with God. If you are steadfast and mindful of God, that is the best course. ( Surah 3:186)

The messenger heard worse to his face.

The muslims had their golden age under islamic rule, they abandoned Allah and his laws and then complain.

Does it make sense?

tbaba1234: Like I said, all he needs to do is read his Quran.

.....God does not change the condition of a people unless they change what is in themselves, but if He wills harm on a people, no one can ward it off–apart from Him, they have no protector (Surah 13:11)

you are sure to be tested through your possessions and persons; you are sure to hear much that is hurtful from those who were given the Scripture before you and from those who associate others with God. If you are steadfast and mindful of God, that is the best course. ( Surah 3:186)

The messenger heard worse to his face.

The muslims had their golden age under islamic rule, they abandoned Allah and his laws and then complain.

Does it make sense?

I understand your point. You are saying that some muslims have deviated from the path by their own will and are now complaining about ending up in the bush.

Surah 13;11 is deep....

Thanks

No wahala

Nairatalks:


I understand your point. You are saying that some muslims have deviated from the path by their own will and are now complaining about ending up in the bush.

Surah 13;11 is deep....

Thanks

One quick question sir. The west that are technologically advanced on the right path?

Paschal007:

One quick question sir. The west that are technologically advanced on the right path?

Depends....what is the right path to you?

Mr OP, dont be so naive. You really think, only one fella could answer your question? This is not a simple question and the answer is not as simple either.
If u really want the answer to this question, a question which a lot of muslims either never ask or dont have the right answer to, then find the answer to this question:
"WHY DO BAD THINGS HAPPEN TO GOOD PEOPLE?"
It took me sweat,blood and tears to get the answer to this question. Once u get the answer, u automatically answer your own question.

usermane: Mr OP, dont be so naive. You really think, only one fella could answer your question? This is not a simple question and the answer is not as simple either.
If u really want the answer to this question, a question which a lot of muslims either never ask or dont have the right answer to, then find the answer to this question:
"WHY DO BAD THINGS HAPPEN TO GOOD PEOPLE?"
It took me sweat,blood and tears to get the answer to this question. Once u get the answer, u automatically answer your own question.

I am not the one asking the question. It was a question by a young muslim which I found interesting.

To be honest, I am not satisfied with Tbaba's response. I am not here to argue and that is why I just agreed with Tbaba.

Nairatalks:


I am not the one asking the question. It was a question by a young muslim which I found interesting.

To be honest, I am not satisfied with Tbaba's response. I am not here to argue and that is why I just agreed with Tbaba.

u r still the asker here jack... Khalid asked the question originally and u passed it down here cos u need a response. Perhaps u might have seen the validity of this question in the past even before khalid asked.
Whatever u do,try answering my initial question

usermane:
u r still the asker here jack... Khalid asked the question originally and u passed it down here cos u need a response. Perhaps u might have seen the validity of this question in the past even before khalid asked.
Whatever u do,try answering my initial question

Why dont you answer the question in the op?

I didnt create this thread to answer you own questions

Some muslim leaders during the golden age became uncomfortable with openness and pursuit of any other forms of knowledge but that of Allah. Their felfdom was threatened by people's interest in other things hence the need to discourage education. The result is what you are seeing. While the Arab world increased in the knowledge of Allah, they decreased in technology.

Nairatalks:


Depends....what is the right path to you?

Don't bother...i guess you were being sarcastic earlier.

Mee234: Some muslim leaders during the golden age became uncomfortable with openness and pursuit of any other forms of knowledge but that of Allah. Their felfdom was threatened by people's interest in other things hence the need to discourage education. The result is what you are seeing. While the Arab world increased in the knowledge of Allah, they decreased in technology.

meemee how far

Paschal360: meemee how far

i dey. hw u dey too

Nairatalks:


Why dont you answer the question in the op?

I didnt create this thread to answer you own questions

You want my answer?,u want my own version of the truth?. Ever wondered why there have been no response so far on your thread?
Nairatalk, this is no joking issue. This is a serious issue where a lot of muslims hate to discuss. I already spoke with someone about this and he was getting emotional over it. Is this section ready for my answer?, can you all handle the truth? The truth is like fire, i 'll give it to only those who can handle it.
No,no i cant spill out the truth, not everything, not this morning.
Nobody is perfect. The islamic states have their fair share of faults, a lot they are unwilling to take responsibity of. They are wealthy and could stand on the same technological level like Europe and america if they wanted. However, they just won't because they are scared, too scared of venturing into anything else because they believe it might lead them astray Look around them. Nearly everything is forbidden. Look how they dress, especially the women,does it create room for manufacture of varieties of clothing. How much of socialising and recreation do muslims indulge in, to desire for their own technological invention. The world mean nothing to them. Their only concern is the Hereafter and if securing success in the hereafter mean forgoing science and technology then so be it. But the western world don't give a damn. Rather they are willing to strive for a better world here on earth.
Yeah Khalid,there are several reasons why we 've become backbenchers. It is just too much of a stretch to say this is the only cause, but i wont mention the rest.

Now, why do bad things happen to good people? Becos the so called good people have a somewhat bad past and believe me the past is always affecting the future. The law of retribution always holds. Because despite their goodness, they still do a lot of wrongs, make a lot of poor judgements and decisions, make mistakes they may be too blind to notice.
This what is haunting some islamic nations today. Even though they strive to be good generally, encourage good and forbid evil, they are still lacking in areas of mordernisation, mainly because of a lot of flaws in their lifestyle and mindset, bad things still happen to them, e.g lagging behind technological wise. And as long as they believe their living is flawless ,nothing 's gonna change.
Let me get one thing clear,am not here to bash muslims as my post may appear to some of you folks. Am here to speak the truth from my own understanding or observation. Its just happen that the truth doesnt favours the muslims in this subject. And am not forcing anyone to accept or believe all my write up. I just gave a response to the OP and anyone dissatified can let us know his/her answer or version of the truth as well.

usermane:
You want my answer?,u want my own version of the truth?. Ever wondered why there have been no response so far on your thread?
Nairatalk, this is no joking issue. This is a serious issue where a lot of muslims hate to discuss. I already spoke with someone about this and he was getting emotional over it. Is this section ready for my answer?, can you all handle the truth? The truth is like fire, i 'll give it to only those who can handle it.
No,no i cant spill out the truth, not everything, not this morning.
Nobody is perfect. The islamic states have their fair share of faults, a lot they are unwilling to take responsibity of. They are wealthy and could stand on the same technological level like Europe and america if they wanted. However, they just won't because they are scared, too scared of venturing into anything else because they believe it might lead them astray Look around them. Nearly everything is forbidden. Look how they dress, especially the women,does it create room for manufacture of varieties of clothing. How much of socialising and recreation do muslims indulge in, to desire for their own technological invention. The world mean nothing to them. Their only concern is the Hereafter and if securing success in the hereafter mean forgoing science and technology then so be it. But the western world don't give a damn. Rather they are willing to strive for a better world here on earth.
Yeah Khalid,there are several reasons why we 've become backbenchers. It is just too much of a stretch to say this is the only cause, but i wont mention the rest.

With all due respect, your response does not make sense. You have not talked about the things that drives innovation, rather you are focused on trivialities and social norms.

And the response to : why bad things happen to good people is fairly staightforward in the Quran. It is very clear. It is beyond retri

1. Some of the greatest philosophers and scientists from the muslim world were actually religious scholars or had very good religious background.

2. The problem in the muslim world is a lack of Islam not a presence of it, Do you know the kind of corruption that exists there? Have you been to any of the gulf countries?

It is not about the wealth. It is the lack of accountability and Justice. It is not a care for the hereafter, it is too much indulgement in this life..

And yes, they care way too much about this life, come to vegas and see how many wealthy arabs come there to gamble. See the obscene wealth among the elites.

Muslim countries have the worst kinds of financial corruption by the elite, the worst kind of racism and class society, the very worst kinds. Even though they claim to follow Islamic law, they make a mockery of the entire process.

3. Muslim history is filled with thousands of female scholars, At some point some of the greatest scholars were women and they were dressed exactly the way they dress today probably more conservative. We are not interested in fashion that falls outside the boundaries of Islam.

Have you been to anywhere in the muslim world to even make an assessment of the dressing?? seriously??

4. Socializing?? It seems you look at Islam from a prism of halal and haram. How many muslims from the Arab world or muslim world have you met to talk about their socializing habits? I have met quite a number, they socialise just fine all within the limits.

In Islam, there are limits. You have to abide by them. It didn't stop them from being at the top of the world in the past. There are fundamental problems beyond socializing.

5. Every civilisation will have its highs and lows, the level of corruption amongst muslims today mean that unless we work of establishing Justice and accountability in our societies which are the basis of Islam, we still have a long way before getting to the top.

6. It is not a matter of been scared, it is a failure of leadership. It is the failure of proper education, we have separated religious knowledge from acquired knowledge, we have made it one or the other when in actual fact they compliment each other.

I encourage you to read a little of history. Read about the model of Islamic baghdad and Islamic Spain..

And yes, muslims should stop gloating about how great their past was and focus on establishing a better future, I talked extensively about how that can be achieved here

https://www.nairaland.com/1068269/islamic-civilisation-islamic-law-reforming

Please read.

Before you go criticizing Islamic values, know that those values promoted innovation, took the muslims to the top of world and hundreds of years ahead of europe at some point.

Local technological innovation depends on things you have not mentioned here. It depends on the right education, the right environment politically and socially, the right guidance which comes from understanding the message.

There is no Islamic state in the world today, What we have a pseudo Islamic States. Since the fall of the ottoman, we have no really had an Islamic state.

Thanks.

So why do bad things happen to the good people?

• God’s punishment as a result of our sins and bad actions.

• God’s wisdom, as there may be divine wisdom in permitting evil and suffering. Even if we can’t evaluate what the wisdom is, it doesn’t mean it is not there. To argue such a thing would be a logical fallacy, known as the argument from ignorance (argumentum ad ignorantiam). The story of Khidr which can be found in the 18th chapter of Qur’an from verses 60 to 82 is an eloquent account of how God’s wisdom, whether understood or not, has positive results and benefits for humanity.

The intellectual richness of Islamic Theology provides us with many reasons, some of which include:

1. The primary purpose of the human being is not happiness rather it is to know and worship God. This fulfillment of the divine purpose will result in everlasting bliss and happiness. So if this is our primary purpose other aspects of human experience our secondary. The Qur’an, the book of the Muslims states: “I did not create either jinn or man except to worship Me.” (Qur’an 51:56-57)

2. God also created us for a test, and part of this test is to be tested with suffering and evil. The Qur’an mentions “The One Who created death and life, so that He may put you to test, to find out which of you is best in deeds: He is the all-Almighty, the all-Forgiving” (Qur’an 67: 2)

3. Having hardship and suffering enables us to realise and know God’s attributes such as ‘the Victorious’ and ‘the Healer’. For example without the pain and suffering of illness we would not appreciate the attribute of God being ‘the Healer’. Knowing God is a greater good, and worth the experience of suffering or pain as it will mean the fulfillment of our primary purpose.

4. People can also suffer from past, present or future sins. God has knowledge of everything which is not contingent on time. Please refer to the story of Khidr in the Qur’an where it mentions Khidr’s reply to Prophet Moses “All this was done as a mercy from your Lord. What I did was not done by my own will. That is the interpretation of those actions which you could not bear to watch with patience.” (Qur’an 18:82)

5. God has given us free choice, and free choice includes choosing evil acts.

Read more here: http://www.hamzatzortzis.com/essays-articles/philosophy-theology/a-response-to-the-problem-of-evil/

[quote auto tbaba
Thanks.[/quote]
Hey,hey,hey, take a breath, relax. Take a sip from your coffee mug to calm your nerves. There is a reason why i nvr wanted to answer the OP, it 's because the question has plenty of answers and answers have to be given in details or else anyone would misunderstand one could write a textbook on this question, however i did the contrary and now am at it again.
It 's true, muslim scientist did exist in the past. Yet it is still true that they exist even today, just that they are not widely known cos there are bigger names than them in europe or america. So there has to be something holding them back. I never said it was Islam.
Look, even the european,japanese or chinese have corrupt people. The islamic nation has those bad eggs too but there have good guys. Most of the good guys prefer other religious activities than taking their time in scientific work. Only few of them get into practical science and they just can't utilise their full potentials since they are few and dont get the necessary motivation for technological research. Its like being in a house where everyone prefer to attend Quranic school strictly without distraction, u being the only one who want a western education. How hard is going to be for u, my dear. Yes fear of the hereafter, they do work hard to be a success after the judgement and a lot of them fear distraction or deviation venturing in technological field could result to. Its like preparing for an exam, but one man is so determined to pass that put away everything you can imagine,reading all day and night without and rest or relaxation. Oh yes, there are muslims that have isolated themselves from humanity or civilisation cos they cant stand anything with even a micro potential threat to their faith. They want to worship God and nothing else. Am fine with such an Islamic life, only i won't resort to it anytime soon.
Whoever said the presence of Islam is the problem. Not me and not nairatalks or Khalid did say that. No one could say he is practising real, Islam only God knows who really is. And how are we sure contemporary islam was islam of those long gone Muslim scholars you keep mentioning.
U didnt get my words right about clothing. Am not going to start debating wether fashion has a place or not in Islam but i do know that a compulsion to wear the same gament with the same colour all through,all time mean no advancement or changes could be made through technological effort. A majority of lab coat, or research wears today are considered questionable for women among plenty of muslims. Yet the abaya can't be used in place of them.
Socialising? How about recreation? Not talking of partying,clubbing or fooling around. Television,video recorders,cameras, computers, internet and more all came about not particularly to satisfy man 's needs. Rather they came in to satisfy our wants. Arab Muslims are much focused on the hereafter to go after anything else but their needs.
Do not misunderstand, am not insulting islamic values. I have been speaking of how muslims and their understanding as well as practice of Islam have a role in where there stand,below europe,china and japan in technological inventions. Muslims and Islam are not the same becos one is flawless and the other is flawed. Deal with it.

usermane:
You want my answer?,u want my own version of the truth?. Ever wondered why there have been no response so far on your thread?
Nairatalk, this is no joking issue. This is a serious issue where a lot of muslims hate to discuss. I already spoke with someone about this and he was getting emotional over it. Is this section ready for my answer?, can you all handle the truth? The truth is like fire, i 'll give it to only those who can handle it.
No,no i cant spill out the truth, not everything, not this morning.

Nobody is perfect. The islamic states have their fair share of faults, a lot they are unwilling to take responsibity of. They are wealthy and could stand on the same technological level like Europe and america if they wanted. However, they just won't because they are scared, too scared of venturing into anything else because they believe it might lead them astray Look around them. Nearly everything is forbidden. Look how they dress, especially the women,does it create room for manufacture of varieties of clothing. How much of socialising and recreation do muslims indulge in, to desire for their own technological invention. The world mean nothing to them. Their only concern is the Hereafter and if securing success in the hereafter mean forgoing science and technology then so be it. But the western world don't give a damn. Rather they are willing to strive for a better world here on earth.

Yeah Khalid,there are several reasons why we 've become backbenchers. It is just too much of a stretch to say this is the only cause, but i wont mention the rest.

Wait, are you a muslim?

Well, thanks for your answer. Some of what you say is true. I noticed that the West is moved by profits and individualistic gains. While there are some problems with such western motivations, there are advantages to it in the sense that the Westerners focus on things that work and bring profit/comfort to them.

I think many Islamic countries have actually become dogmatic theocracies rather than trying to find a balance between religion, politics and science. Everything is religion and anything outside religion is wrong to them. Such a philosophy is wrong. The Quran has an answer to that- there is no compulsion in religion

hmmmm....quite interesting to see Muslims discuss issues with the right doses of intelligence and understanding. One thing is a common fact here, technologies are based solely on the empirical evidences of science and not religious obsession and faith based evidence and truth.
Anyway, I am going to subscribe to this thread and comment when I feel it is necessary.

Mee234: Some muslim leaders during the golden age became uncomfortable with openness and pursuit of any other forms of knowledge but that of Allah. Their felfdom was threatened by people's interest in other things hence the need to discourage education. The result is what you are seeing. While the Arab world increased in the knowledge of Allah, they decreased in technology.

Some lessons in history should never be forgotten.


However, your comment in bold is interesting. Wouldnt you rather say that they were trying to find Allah through the wrong avenue of politics and power instead of finding Allah in the diverse nature of people and the wonders of the world through science and technology?

tbaba1234: So why do bad things happen to the good people?

• God’s punishment as a result of our sins and bad actions.

• God’s wisdom, as there may be divine wisdom in permitting evil and suffering. Even if we can’t evaluate what the wisdom is, it doesn’t mean it is not there. To argue such a thing would be a logical fallacy, known as the argument from ignorance (argumentum ad ignorantiam). The story of Khidr which can be found in the 18th chapter of Qur’an from verses 60 to 82 is an eloquent account of how God’s wisdom, whether understood or not, has positive results and benefits for humanity.

The intellectual richness of Islamic Theology provides us with many reasons, some of which include:

1. The primary purpose of the human being is not happiness rather it is to know and worship God. This fulfillment of the divine purpose will result in everlasting bliss and happiness. So if this is our primary purpose other aspects of human experience our secondary. The Qur’an, the book of the Muslims states: “I did not create either jinn or man except to worship Me.” (Qur’an 51:56-57)

2. God also created us for a test, and part of this test is to be tested with suffering and evil. The Qur’an mentions “The One Who created death and life, so that He may put you to test, to find out which of you is best in deeds: He is the all-Almighty, the all-Forgiving” (Qur’an 67: 2)

3. Having hardship and suffering enables us to realise and know God’s attributes such as ‘the Victorious’ and ‘the Healer’. For example without the pain and suffering of illness we would not appreciate the attribute of God being ‘the Healer’. Knowing God is a greater good, and worth the experience of suffering or pain as it will mean the fulfillment of our primary purpose.

4. People can also suffer from past, present or future sins. God has knowledge of everything which is not contingent on time. Please refer to the story of Khidr in the Qur’an where it mentions Khidr’s reply to Prophet Moses “All this was done as a mercy from your Lord. What I did was not done by my own will. That is the interpretation of those actions which you could not bear to watch with patience.” (Qur’an 18:82)

5. God has given us free choice, and free choice includes choosing evil acts.

Read more here: http://www.hamzatzortzis.com/essays-articles/philosophy-theology/a-response-to-the-problem-of-evil/

Thanks dude, i agree with all your points. I could have mentioned them but i mentioned the only one in my post becos most good people tend to over look it. And recall Islam teaches that whenever any evil befall anyone, he/she is the cause of it. Period.
There are several answers to nairatalks question. I mentioned just one {Islamic practice/Disenthusiasm in technological inventions}, i may be right or wrong and you have your answers, some which are fine with me. Am sure nairatalks has his answer, so does khalid and everyone else. Our answers just cant be the same, even if we may be both right.
Am not here to criticize islamic values. The truth must always be told, even against oneself where need arises. Both Muslims and Christians have their loopholes,flaws and failures. And as much as both muslims and christians hate to admit these faults either out of pride or stubborness, i 'm willing to point it out to them out each time the opportunity knocks.

usermane: Now, why do bad things happen to good people? Becos the so called good people have a somewhat bad past and believe me the past is always affecting the future. The law of retribution always holds. Because despite their goodness, they still do a lot of wrongs, make a lot of poor judgements and decisions, make mistakes they may be too blind to notice.
This what is haunting some islamic nations today. Even though they strive to be good generally, encourage good and forbid evil, they are still lacking in areas of mordernisation, mainly because of a lot of flaws in their lifestyle and mindset, bad things still happen to them, e.g lagging behind technological wise. And as long as they believe their living is flawless ,nothing 's gonna change.
Let me get one thing clear,am not here to bash muslims as my post may appear to some of you folks. Am here to speak the truth from my own understanding or observation. Its just happen that the truth doesnt favours the muslims in this subject. And am not forcing anyone to accept or believe all my write up. I just gave a response to the OP and anyone dissatified can let us know his/her answer or version of the truth as well.

I dont believe in your theory of retribution.

-However, I think the case may be that certain things are random and certain things a a direct result of actions

Random
We should learn to take the good with the bad. We should accept our blessings whenever they fall upon us. If something bad happens, we should try to solve it rather than lament all day. We dont know the mind of God therefore, it is better for us to focus on solutions rather than attributing every single moment in our life to Him.


Direct actions
Regarding the case of our islamic countries today, people should realise that many muslims mix culture and religion together. Some things in religion are outdated or are a practice of culture. Take for instance, Burkha or Niqaab- women that wear the veil or cover up are not anymore religious or better dressed than women who do not. This is a culture that got mixed up in islam. A woman can cover up her whole body or not- it is her choice. However, any man or woman who claims that it is good religion or better or a must to wear the veil is confusing ancient Arab/Jewish/Middle eastern culture with religion.

We should take responsiblity for our actions. Many of our muslim brethren in silamic countries practice outdated things and mix culture with religion then complain when their countries are not progressing or are far behind the west in certain Areas.

Nairatalks:


Wait, are you a muslim?

Well, thanks for your answer. Some of what you say is true. I noticed that the West is moved by profits and individualistic gains. While there are some problems with such western motivations, there are advantages to it in the sense that the Westerners focus on things that work and bring profit/comfort to them.

I think many Islamic countries have actually become dogmatic theocracies rather than trying to find a balance between religion, politics and science. Everything is religion and anything outside religion is wrong to them. Such a philosophy is wrong. The Quran has an answer to that- there is no compulsion in religion

"there is no compulsion in religion", really You believe that as a statement of fact or just part of the very wonderful condiments of religious claims even when in reality there is no
such thing as non-compulsive spread of any known major religion, Christianity and Islam bring the chiefs of such methods.
Let's be honest in the way we choose to understand certain claims from our holy books even when it is obvious that such claims do not reconcile with the very ideology of our religion.

I found your reply to username interesting. I hope you dont mind if I jump in!

tbaba1234:

1. Some of the greatest philosophers and scientists from the muslim world were actually religious scholars or had very good religious background.

That is true. But is it their religion or their personality that made them great scientists or philosophers? I remember having a discussion with christians when I lived in USA about some of their past presidents and founding fathers. The liberals were arguing that many of their great presidents were christians but their religion had nothing to do with their politics, hence, the adoption of the idea of separation of church and state.

I find the liberals' argument interesting.

tbaba1234:
2. The problem in the muslim world is a lack of Islam not a presence of it, Do you know the kind of corruption that exists there? Have you been to any of the gulf countries?

It is not about the wealth. It is the lack of accountability and Justice. It is not a care for the hereafter, it is too much indulgement in this life..

And yes, they care way too much about this life, come to vegas and see how many wealthy arabs come there to gamble. See the obscene wealth among the elites.

Muslim countries have the worst kinds of financial corruption by the elite, the worst kind of racism and class society, the very worst kinds. Even though they claim to follow Islamic law, they make a mockery of the entire process.

I agree with your claim of corruption and injustice in Arab/gulf countries but how can you make the case that it is because of a lack of Islam?

Are countries that are more just having a better dose of Islam? These Arab countries are very religious compared to some (eg Turkey)

I think you meant to say that these countries are practising the wrong Islam or their leaders misunderstand the islam they practice. But then, you will have to explain the correct islamic way of leading a country. This is where I am lost....

tbaba1234:
3. Muslim history is filled with thousands of female scholars, At some point some of the greatest scholars were women and they were dressed exactly the way they dress today probably more conservative. We are not interested in fashion that falls outside the boundaries of Islam.

Have you been to anywhere in the muslim world to even make an assessment of the dressing?? seriously??

Stop this falsehood. There are female scholars in Islamic history but I doubt it is in the thousands that you claim. The Quran, Hadith and Arab history are there. I challenge you to get past 100 female scholars in Islamic history.

Also, there is no fashion that falls outside the boundaries of islam (except nudity). Islam permits modest dressing. An unbiased person would know that "modest" varies and a sensible approach would be to accept all fashions except those which expose private parts.

tbaba1234:
4. Socializing?? It seems you look at Islam from a prism of halal and haram. How many muslims from the Arab world or muslim world have you met to talk about their socializing habits? I have met quite a number, they socialise just fine all within the limits.

In Islam, there are limits. You have to abide by them. It didn't stop them from being at the top of the world in the past. There are fundamental problems beyond socializing.

Agreed here

tbaba1234:
5. Every civilisation will have its highs and lows, the level of corruption amongst muslims today mean that unless we work of establishing Justice and accountability in our societies which are the basis of Islam, we still have a long way before getting to the top.

Agreed

tbaba1234:
6. It is not a matter of been scared, it is a failure of leadership. It is the failure of proper education, we have separated religious knowledge from acquired knowledge, we have made it one or the other when in actual fact they compliment each other.

It is a failure of leadership, agreed!

Religious knowledge and acquired knowledge as you put it, are quite separate. We can learn both but we must first admit that they are different.

tbaba1234:
Before you go criticizing Islamic values, know that those values promoted innovation, took the muslims to the top of world and hundreds of years ahead of europe at some point.

Local technological innovation depends on things you have not mentioned here. It depends on the right education, the right environment politically and socially, the right guidance which comes from understanding the message.

There is no Islamic state in the world today, What we have a pseudo Islamic States. Since the fall of the ottoman, we have no really had an Islamic state.

Thanks.

But was the Ottoman/previous islamic civilization something to emulate when it came to civility? The brutality of that era was frightening.

While I agree with our golden islamic age that produced a lot of great scientific work. We shouldnt carry outdated baggage from that era. This is one of our problem, we carry the outdated culture of the Goldne age rather than its attitude to science and learning

rhymz: "there is no compulsion in religion", really You believe that as a statement of fact or just part of the very wonderful condiments of religious claims even when in reality there is no
such thing as non-compulsive spread of any known major religion, Christianity and Islam bring the chiefs of such methods.
Let's be honest in the way we choose to understand certain claims from our holy books even when it is obvious that such claims do not reconcile with the very ideology of our religion.

Sorry, I do not understand.

What are you trying to say? Please explain.

tbaba1234: So why do bad things happen to the good people?

• God’s punishment as a result of our sins and bad actions.

• God’s wisdom, as there may be divine wisdom in permitting evil and suffering. Even if we can’t evaluate what the wisdom is, it doesn’t mean it is not there. To argue such a thing would be a logical fallacy, known as the argument from ignorance (argumentum ad ignorantiam). The story of Khidr which can be found in the 18th chapter of Qur’an from verses 60 to 82 is an eloquent account of how God’s wisdom, whether understood or not, has positive results and benefits for humanity.

The intellectual richness of Islamic Theology provides us with many reasons, some of which include:

1. The primary purpose of the human being is not happiness rather it is to know and worship God. This fulfillment of the divine purpose will result in everlasting bliss and happiness. So if this is our primary purpose other aspects of human experience our secondary. The Qur’an, the book of the Muslims states: “I did not create either jinn or man except to worship Me.” (Qur’an 51:56-57)

2. God also created us for a test, and part of this test is to be tested with suffering and evil. The Qur’an mentions “The One Who created death and life, so that He may put you to test, to find out which of you is best in deeds: He is the all-Almighty, the all-Forgiving” (Qur’an 67: 2)

3. Having hardship and suffering enables us to realise and know God’s attributes such as ‘the Victorious’ and ‘the Healer’. For example without the pain and suffering of illness we would not appreciate the attribute of God being ‘the Healer’. Knowing God is a greater good, and worth the experience of suffering or pain as it will mean the fulfillment of our primary purpose.

4. People can also suffer from past, present or future sins. God has knowledge of everything which is not contingent on time. Please refer to the story of Khidr in the Qur’an where it mentions Khidr’s reply to Prophet Moses “All this was done as a mercy from your Lord. What I did was not done by my own will. That is the interpretation of those actions which you could not bear to watch with patience.” (Qur’an 18:82)

5. God has given us free choice, and free choice includes choosing evil acts.

Read more here: http://www.hamzatzortzis.com/essays-articles/philosophy-theology/a-response-to-the-problem-of-evil/

I just researched on Hamza Tzortzis after going to that website. He is a good philosopher. But I want to play the devil's advocate here with some of the points;

1. The primary purpose of the human being is not happiness rather it is to know and worship God. This fulfillment of the divine purpose will result in everlasting bliss and happiness. So if this is our primary purpose other aspects of human experience our secondary. The Qur’an, the book of the Muslims states: “I did not create either jinn or man except to worship Me.” (Qur’an 51:56-57)

Incomplete theology and misinterpretation of the Quran. While we were created to worship God, we have 3 options;
-worship him in sadness
-worship him in happiness
-worship him with a neutral state of mind.

The Quran does not say that we should worship in sadness

Imagine someone losing his whole family to a hurricane on Thursday, do you honestly expect to see him in the mosque on Friday? He has to grieve and take time to calm down. The hurricane deaths have affected his ability to worship, so your distinguishing between secondary and primary purposes of human life is not as black and white as you see it.

2. God also created us for a test, and part of this test is to be tested with suffering and evil. The Qur’an mentions “The One Who created death and life, so that He may put you to test, to find out which of you is best in deeds: He is the all-Almighty, the all-Forgiving” (Qur’an 67: 2)

Incomplete theology again. Yes, God tests us but is that all? How do we know when we are tested? To describe somebody losing his whole family to a hurricane as a test from God is borderline psychopathic. We dont know if it is a test or just the way God created the earth to function. Who knows if it is all science and the earth needs such a strong water cycle to keep on surviving as a planet.

I am not saying that God cant test us with hard times. The fact is that we dont know when we are tested and how God tests us. It is rather more reasonable to assume that God tests us with our faith directly rather than with machinations of biology, physics and geology of our bodies and our planet----- I am not sure of this but it seems more sensible

3. Having hardship and suffering enables us to realise and know God’s attributes such as ‘the Victorious’ and ‘the Healer’. For example without the pain and suffering of illness we would not appreciate the attribute of God being ‘the Healer’. Knowing God is a greater good, and worth the experience of suffering or pain as it will mean the fulfillment of our primary purpose.

4. People can also suffer from past, present or future sins. God has knowledge of everything which is not contingent on time. Please refer to the story of Khidr in the Qur’an where it mentions Khidr’s reply to Prophet Moses “All this was done as a mercy from your Lord. What I did was not done by my own will. That is the interpretation of those actions which you could not bear to watch with patience.” (Qur’an 18:82)

5. God has given us free choice, and free choice includes choosing evil acts.

Suffering adds to the experience no doubt.

But if there is a thing like unnecessary suffering then it doesnt bring us closer to God.


Also sins have nothing to do with hurricanes and earthquakes

rhymz: "there is no compulsion in religion", really You believe that as a statement of fact or just part of the very wonderful condiments of religious claims even when in reality there is no
such thing as non-compulsive spread of any known major religion, Christianity and Islam bring the chiefs of such methods.
Let's be honest in the way we choose to understand certain claims from our holy books even when it is obvious that such claims do not reconcile with the very ideology of our religion.

There is no compulsion in Islam. Personal conviction is so key that you can't be a muslim without it.