And just before Olaadegbu and his fellow judaizers begin to grin from ear to ear, note that the fact that Luther spoke against antinmonians does not mean he was legalistic. Luther taught justification by faith and insisted the word 'alone' must be added to Romans 1:16;17, because the German language demanded it.

Luther taught against legalism. It is believed that the church of Rome still hoped he will return but when he married, the nail was fixed on the coffin of his return.

Luther taught against tithing, as well as Calvin, Spurgeon and a host of other renowned gospel teachers.

Justification by faith means simply our salvation is sealed in God: nothing we can ever do or not do can change that status. Just as Adam sinned and we became sinners without doing anything ourselves, so also Jesus died and rose that we may be righteous without anything we can do to add to it.

This is no basis for licenciousness. Because he that is justified must show it by his works according to James.

Bidam:
I will be very glad if you could show me the article where Luther and Charles Spurgoen spoke against the tithes.Thanks in anticipation.

If I give you the reference you request for, O Bidam, will it make U change your position on the tithe?

This is not a tithe thread. I made reference to tithe only as I discussed antinomianism. But if U are still intent on knowing, Mr Russel, who debated Rev. Ewuosho, on tithing, said it in his opening remarks of the debate to show that many renowned men of God of old rejected the tithing doctrine as espoused today.

But we all know men's words are not our final authority but scripture. But God still uses men.

If, however, O most blessed Bidam, U think those men didn't oppose tithing, can U pls provide us a link or quote anywhere that support that position *return to sender*.

In a sermon preached on August 27, 1525 Dr. Martin Luther used the same Old Covenant/New Covenant hermeneutics presented in this book to oppose tithing. His were not out of context or random remarks about the Law and tithing. Rather Dr. Luther was speaking precisely to the point because his sermon title was How Christians Should Regard Moses. The entire document can be found using Internet search engines. A few excerpts: “The Law of Moses Binds Only the Jews and Not the Gentiles. Here the Law of Moses has its place. It is no longer binding on us because it was given only to the people ofIsrael. And Israel accepted this law for itself and its descendants, while the Gentiles were excluded.” “Moses has nothing to do with us. If I were to accept Moses in one commandment, I would have to accept the entire Moses.” “We will not regard him as our lawgiver - unless he agrees with both the New Testament and the natural law.” “For not one little period in Moses pertains to us.” “But the other commandments of Moses, which are not by nature, the Gentiles do not hold. Nor do these pertain to the Gentiles, such as the TITHE and others equally fine which I wish we had too.”

***Calvin argued, "I would have preferred to pass over this matter in utter silence if I were not aware that here many dangerously go astray. For there are some who deny that a commonwealth is duly framed which neglects the political system of Moses, and is ruled by the common laws of nations. Let other men consider how perilous and seditious this notion is; it will be enough for me to have proved it false and foolish . . . It is a fact that the law of God which we call the moral law is nothing else than a testimony of natural law and of that conscience which God has engraved upon the minds of men. Consequently, the entire scheme of this equity of which we are now speaking has been prescribed in it. Hence, this equity alone must be the goal and rule and limit of all laws. Whatever laws shall be framed to that rule, directed to that goal, bound by that limit, there is no reason why we should disapprove of them, howsoever they may differ from the Jewish law, or among themselves . . . For the statement of some, that the law of God given through Moses is dishonored when it is abrogated and new laws preferred to it, is utterly vain. For others are not preferred to it when they are more approved, not by a simple comparison, but with regard to the condition of times, place, and nation; or when that law is abrogated which was never enacted for us. For the Lord through the hand of Moses did not give that law to be proclaimed among all nations and to be in force everywhere; but when he had taken the Jewish nation into his safekeeping, defense, and protection, he also willed to be a lawgiver especially to it; and -- as became a wise lawgiver -- he had special concern for it in making its laws.

“But you are not under a system similar to that by which the Jews were obliged to pay tithes to the priests. If there were any such rule laid down in the Gospel, it would destroy the beauty of spontaneous giving and take away all the bloom from the fruit of your liberality! There is no law to tell me what I should give my father on his birthday. There is no rule laid down in any law book to decide what present a husband should give to his wife, nor what token of affection we should bestow upon others whom we love. No, the gift must be a free one, or it has lost all its sweetness.”

” According to this lowest rule of Christian prudence, if a man when he has or gains one pound give a tenth to God, when he has or gains an hundred he will give the tenth of this also. And yet I show unto you a more excellent way. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. Stint yourself to no proportion at all. But lend to God all you can.
"On the Use of Money" from a sermon preached in 1744):?give all you can; or in other words, give all you have to God. Do not stint yourself, like a Jew rather than a Christian, to this or that proportion. Render unto God not a tenth, not a third, not half, but all that is God's (be it more or less) by employing all on yourself, your household, the household of faith and all mankind, in such a manner that you may give a good account of your stewardship when ye can be no longer stewards...”

It (tithing) is not mentioned in the New Testament except where it is describing Old Testament practices or in the Gospels where Jesus is addressing people who were under the Old Testament law. Note Jesus' comments to the Pharisees in Luke 11:42? A New Testament teaching on giving which may be helpful to you is found in 1 Corinthians 16:2.... This passage brings out four points: we should give individually, regularly, methodically, and proportionately. The matter of your giving is between you and God, and He always takes into account our circumstances. He knows when they are beyond our power to direct and control. The important thing is that we see giving as a privilege and not a burden. It should not be out of a sense of duty, but rather out of love for the Lord and a desire to see His kingdom advanced. Second Corinthians 9:6-7..... What has priority in our lives? Is Christ really first--or do we put ourselves and our own desires first? Make sure Christ is first in your life, and then ask Him to guide you. Note: Billy Graham himself does teach tithing. http://www.billygraham.org/LFA_Article.asp?ArticleID=28

DrummaBoy: @Strykt

I took my time in the OP to explain why I opened this thread. I was asked to supply the quotation but so as not to derail the thread, I opened this one. I have already mentioned that men's words is not our ultimate authority but so as to show that if some oppose tithing today, they are not doing anything new, because reputable men of God in the past have done so too.

Also, another reason why the subject of tithing was never contentious at all in those days was because it was not widely practiced. The few times it came up, it was easy to relegate it to the position it belongs: The law of Moses. But by the 19th century when institutional churches began to emerge, there was a greater need for money and so tithing gained popularity. The same thing is happening today with Firstfruits. So that in days to come, it will become prevalent in churches if not curbed today.

I hope I have been able to make myself clear?

Sproul: God answers his question, “Will man rob God?” saying, “Yet you are robbing me.” The Israelite response is: “How have we robbed you?” To which God replies, “In your tithes and contributions” (Malachi 3:.

Sproul: God announces that to withhold the full measure of the tithe that He requires from His people is to be guilty of robbing God Himself.

Sproul: Because of this, He pronounces a curse upon the whole nation and commands them afresh to bring to Him all of the tithe.

Sproul: When we think of tithing in Old Testament categories, we understand that the requirement involves returning to God the first fruits of one’s prosperity.

Sproul: We are required to give ten percent of our gross annual income or gain.

Sproul: If a shepherd’s flock produced ten new lambs, the requirement was that one of those lambs be offered to God. This offering is from the top.

Sproul: It is not an offering that is given after other expenses are met or after other taxes have been paid.

Sproul: … ninety-six percent of professing evangelical Christians regularly, systematically, habitually, and impenitently rob God of what belongs to Him.

Sproul: It also means that ninety-six percent of us are for this reason exposing ourselves to a divine curse upon our lives.

Sproul: Whether this percentage is accurate, one thing is certain — it is clear that the overwhelming majority of professing evangelical Christians do not tithe. This immediately raises the question: “Why?” How is it possible that somebody who has given his life to Christ can withhold their financial gifts from Him? I have heard many excuses or explanations for this.

Sproul: The most common is the assertion that the tithe is part of the Old Testament law that has passed away with the coming of the New Testament.

Sproul: This statement is made routinely in spite of the complete lack of New Testament evidence for it. Nowhere in the New Testament does it teach us that the principle of the tithe has been abrogated.

Sproul: The New Testament does teach us, however, that the new covenant is superior to the old covenant. It is a covenant that gives more blessings to us than the old covenant did. It is a covenant that with its manifold blessings imposes greater responsibilities than the Old Testament did. If anything, the structure of the new covenant requires a greater commitment to financial stewardship before God than that which was required in the old covenant.

Sproul: That is to say, the starting point of Christian giving is the tithe. The tithe is not an ideal that only a few people reach but rather should be the base minimum from which we progress.

Sproul: Church history also bears witness that many in the early church did not consider the tithe as having been abrogated in the new covenant.

Sproul: One of the earliest (turn of the second century) extrabiblical documents that survives to this day is the book of the Didache. The Didache gives practical instruction for Christian living. In the Didache, the principle of the giving of the first fruits or the tithe is mentioned as a basic responsibility for every Christian.

Sproul: A second argument that people give to avoid the tithe is that they “cannot afford it.” What that statement really means is that they cannot pay their tithe and pay all the other expenses they have incurred.

Sproul: Again, in their minds the tithe is the last resort in the budget. Their giving to God is something that is at the bottom of their list of priorities. It’s a weak argument before God to say, “Lord, I didn’t tithe because I couldn’t afford it” — especially when we consider that the poorest among us has a higher standard of living than ninety-nine percent of the people who have ever walked on the face of the earth.

Sproul: There are many more excuses that people give to avoid this responsibility, yet the New Testament tells us: “Let the thief no longer steal” (Eph. 2:28a).

Sproul: If we have been guilty of stealing from God in the past by withholding our tithe from Him, that behavior must cease immediately and give way to a resolution to begin tithing at once, no matter what it costs.

Sproul: It’s an interesting phenomenon in the life of the church, that people who in 1960 gave a dollar to the offering plate every week, still give that same dollar today. Everything else in their living costs has been adjusted to inflation except their giving. We also have to remind ourselves that if we give gifts to God, we cannot call them tithes if these gifts fall beneath the level of ten percent.

Sproul: One of the sad realities of failure to tithe is that in so doing we not only are guilty of robbing God, but we also rob ourselves of the joy of giving and of the blessings that follow from it. I have yet to meet a person who tithes who has expressed to me regret for being one who tithes. On the contrary, I hear from them not a sense of judgment towards those who don’t give but rather a sense of compassion toward them. Frequently, I hear tithers saying, “People who don’t tithe just don’t know what they’re missing.”

Sproul: It is a cliché and a truism that you can’t out-give God. That statement has become a cliché because it is so true.

Sproul: In the text in Malachi, we find something exceedingly rare coming from the lips of God. Here God challenges His people to put Him to a test: “Put me to the test, says the LORD of hosts, if I will not open the windows of heaven for you and pour down for you a blessing until there is no more need” (3:10).

Sproul: Have you put God to that test? Have you tried Him to see if He will not open heaven itself and empty His own treasuries upon you? We need to stop robbing Him and thus receive from Him the blessing that He promises.

Sproul: Dr. R.C. Sproul is founder and president of Ligonier Ministries and senior minister of preaching and teaching at Saint Andrew's in Sanford, Florida, and he is author of the book Faith Alone.

Sproul: For more than thirty years, Dr. R.C. Sproul has thoroughly and concisely analyzed weighty theological, philosophical, and biblical topics in Right Now Counts Forever, drawing out practical applications for the Christian in his own engaging style.

striktlymi:

Apologies DB,

I must confess that I did not read the OP as I should have...

Anyways, your response was very helpful in making your viewpoint on the matter clearer....

I quite agree with your views on tithing to a large extent but still I do not think that one who wants to tithe of his own free will should be discouraged from doing so...

It would be right however, to discourage anyone who tithe for the wrong reasons and I must confess that it would be very difficult to see one who tithe for good reasons but still there are people who tithe because of the love they have for God...this in my view is not wrong.

Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [alike]. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth [it] unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard [it]. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

Goshen360: Waiting for Olaadegbu and his offspring, Bidam and perhaps, other Judaizers will come also.

MostHigh:

The One you hail as your master Yashua ibn joseph was a true Judaizer as scripture confirms

You can be exactly as the master is, but not greater remember?

Why are you trying to be greater than yashua mr Goshen?

Lawless son of a lawless father.

DrummaBoy:



F. F. Bruce,

Zola Levitt,

John MacArthur,

Charles Ryrie,

Thomas R Schreiner,

C. I. Scofield,

Charles H Spurgeon,

Merrill Unger,

Spiros Zodhiates.

Martin Luther

DrummaBoy:

Strykt, I appreciate your response.

You know, yesterday night, I woke up to study scriptures and I came across Romans 14. In fact, I spent the night perusing this scriptures:



And I felt instinctively that this was God's all time position on the tithe. From this scriptures we can get three things from the bolded:

1. We are not to judge other Christians on light matters of scriptures, but focus on the weightier matters. And I believe from Jesus' own words on tithe in Matthew 23:23, tithe was a light matter.

2. Whatever we do, we must do it from conviction: faith. Let every man be fully convinced in himself: means that every man should be given the liberty to weigh the whole argument and decide for himself what he wants to do. No church or preacher should do this for believers and this applies to the tithe too. Our contention with the judaizers on this forum is that they tell us there is no other way than to tithe and they get the proper response: there is no other way but not to tithe. But scripture wants every one to decide for himself; and no man should be bound into fear of loosing his salvation, or curses, to tithe.

3. The man that tithes, to the Lord he tithes. The man that does not tithe, but gives from a free will, to the Lord his does this and no man should be condemned for taking either position. E.g, my wife tithes. I don't. If someday she understand the issue like I do and stops fine; if not, great. But my children will hear the whole argument and decide for themselves what they will do.

But let us not loose focus of the purpose of the thread, that great men of God in time past, men God used, have themselves either not tithed or not preached tithing. And every man has the right today to decide which position he chooses to take on the subject.

[Hebrews 7]:2. If the strict legal course of tithing be intended, it cannot be proved from this text [Hebrews 7] nor from any other instance before the law;

[Genesis 14:18-20] … for Abraham gave only the tenth of the spoils, which were not tithe-able by law. For if the places taken or destroyed in war were anathematized, as Jericho was, and also Amalek, no portion was to be reserved, under a pretense of sacrifice or any other sacred use; as Saul found to his cost. And if they were not anathematized, all the spoils were left entirely unto the people that went to war, without any sacred decimation. So the Reubenites and the Gadites, at their return over Jordan into their own land, carried all their rich spoils and cattle with them, no tithe being mentioned, Joshua 22:8; — although there is no question but many of them offered their freewill offerings at the tabernacle.

And when God would have a sacred portion out of the spoils, as he would have in the wilderness, out of those that were taken from the Midianites, to manifest that they fell not under the law of tithes, he took not the tenth part, but one portion of five hundred from the soldiers, and one of fifty from the people, Numbers 31:28-30. Wherefore the giving of the tenth of the spoils was not from the obligation of any law, but was an act of free-will and choice in the offerer.

But yet there was so great an equity herein also, — namely, that God should have an acknowledgment in the fruits of those successes which he gave in war, — that out of the spoils of his and his people’s enemies David made his provision for the building of the temple. And the captains of the host that went against Midian, after a tribute was raised for the Lord out of the spoils according unto the proportions mentioned, when they found the goodness of God in the preservation of their soldiers, whereof there was not one lost, they made a new voluntary oblation unto God out of their spoils, Numbers 31:48-50.

[Genesis 28] And as for the instance of Jacob, who vowed unto God the tenth of all, it is so far from proving that the tenth was due by virtue of any law, that it proves the contrary. For had it been so, it could not have been the matter of an extraordinary vow, whereby he could express his obedience unto God.

[Matthew 23:23] 3. The precise law of tithing is not confirmed in the gospel. For that saying of our Savior’s approving the tithing of mint and cummin, evidently respects that legal institution which was then in force, and could not be violated without sin. And by his approbation of that law, and of the duty in observance of it, he did no more confirm it, or ascribe an obligatory power unto it under the gospel, than he did so unto all those other ceremonial institutions which both he himself observed as a man made under the law, and enjoined others so to do. They all continued in full force “until the time of reformation,” which gave them their bounds and limits, Hebrews 9:10, and ended with his resurrection. His other saying, of “giving unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s,” respects our whole moral obedience unto God, and not this or that particular institution. The meaning of it is, that we are to pay or perform unto God all whatever he requireth of us in a way of obedience; but what that is in particular, is not here determined. And other mention of tithes in the gospel there is none.

4. [1] Whereas by the light of nature, all rules of reason and positive institutions, a portion of what God is pleased to give unto every may, is to be returned unto him, in the way of his worship and service, wherein it may be used according unto his appointment; and [2] whereas before the giving of the law sundry holy men fixed on the tenth part, as that which was (meet) to be so dedicated unto God, and that, as is probable, not without some especial conduct of the Holy Spirit, if not upon express revelation; [3] and whereas this was afterwards expressly confirmed under the law by positive institution, [4] the equity whereof is urged in the gospel; (5) it is the best direction that can be given unto any what proportion of their estate should be set apart unto this purpose.

Herein, I confess, so many circumstances axe in particular cases to be considered, as that it is impossible any one certain rule should be prescribed unto all persons.

But whereas withal there is no need in the least to furnish men with pleas and excuses for the non-performance of their duty, at least as unto the necessary degrees of it, I shall not suggest any thing unto them which may be used to that purpose. I shall therefore leave this rule in its full latitude, as the best direction of practice in this matter.

[1 Cor 9] . On these suppositions it is that the apostle, treating of this matter, makes no use of the right or law of tithing, though directly unto his purpose if it had not been abrogated. For intending to prove that the ministers of the gospel ought to be liberally supported in their work with the earthly things of them unto whom they do administer the things of God … … [Paul]argueth from the light of nature, the general equity of other cases, the analogy of legal institutions, the rules of justice, with the especial institution of Christ in the gospel, but makes no mention of the natural or legal right of tithing, 1 Corinthians 9ff

If we approach the New Testament by lifting verses from various letters and putting them together, we can build a case that tithing is a New Testament practice. And therefore we can tell God's people that they must tithe. But if you look at the story of the first-century church, you will discover that the Christians did not pay tithes. It is not there, brothers. It is not there. I will add something to this. The early Christians recognized that the tithe was part of the Old Covenant. The tithe was Israel's income tax to support the temple and to help the Levites, who were not given an inheritance. But it was also for the purpose of supporting the widows, the fatherless, the poor, and the strangers. This rarely gets mentioned when ministers preach on tithing today. Nevertheless, Jesus Christ has put to death that whole system. Today, all of us, all of God's people, are functioning priests. We, the church--God's people--are the temple. Now here is something that I don't think any of you know. Historically, you cannot find any Christians tithing until the eighth century! The eighth century. This is historical fact. The Christians in the first century did not tithe. The Christians in the second century did not tithe. The Christians in the third century did not tithe. It wasn't until 700 years passed that tithing became a Christian institution. But that's not all. Brothers, it wasn't until the fourth century--under Constantine the Roman emperor who converted to Christianity and made a Christian state out of the Empire--it wasn't until Constantine that the church had a paid clergy. Church leaders did not receive a salary from God's people until the days of Constantine. Do you understand? Tithes were not practiced among the Christians until eight hundred years passed. It was not part of the first-century church's practice. It was part of the Law. And we have been freed from the Law. I know that Melchizedek was given tithes by Abraham. And I understand that this happened before the Law. But, brothers, may I make this observation? Abraham gave tithes to Melchizedek one time. So if you wish to hang tithing around the neck of God's people by using Abraham, then you can only use it to support a one-time tithe.

Goshen360:

Just a confirmation to the above ^ , these men of God and some not mentioned above are favourites in my library. However, I still do not just take their teachings for what is taught, I dig deeper to fully understand. John MacArthur of Grace Community Church is most radical of them all in this present times.

frosbel:

Thanks Goshen, but even John MacArthur does not teach 100% truth, we should really stop seeing these men as infallible .

For example John is a Calvinist, and he believes in many traditional dogmas that do not line up with scripture.

Overall he is zealous and stands for holiness and love, so I like him, but , like the Bereans did to Paul and Paul did to Peter, I do not take everything people say as TRUTH , until it has been tested with the word of GOD and if there is one prayer I pray a lot these days, it is GOD please give me more and more and more wisdom.

Blessings.

PhenomenonVFX: As much as I see what u are trying to do, I fear it would only be futile. The church has been instutitionalized. There is so much money at stake now. Most pastors got their "calling" because of the money. Others who got the true calling and dont even believe in tithing are being influenced by the majority.
I once used to attend a church were the pastor started threnghtening that he wont be conducting any marriage or burial ceremony for any family who doesnt pay tithes regularly. And that they will start keeping a list of tithe payers. I have seen a pastor who became hostile and indirectly pronouncing curses on the altar on people because they didnt give as much as he expected for a church building. That day scared me sh!tless. Must have been the last day I took any pastor seriously.

Goshen360:

You are right 100% my dear brother. That's why I said, I don't just take what they teach, I search out the truth and discard what doesn't align with the new covenant where I or we belong. I don't quite agree on some MacArthur's teachings to be honest, just as you said. You remember one time we talked about on a thread how we study the word and we said, we both study but compare from other's teaching if we are in line just to check what we study? That's why I can stand by whatever I say and answer to scrutiny of my teachings. I don't really take them as my teachers but I do have their materials as part of my study materials in my hard copy library.

Bless you for great job you doing here, pointing men to Christ!

Goshen360:

King James Bible
Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
2 Corinthians 5:16

PhenomenonVFX: As much as I see what u are trying to do, I fear it would only be futile. The church has been instutitionalized. There is so much money at stake now. Most pastors got their "calling" because of the money. Others who got the true calling and dont even believe in tithing are being influenced by the majority.
I once used to attend a church were the pastor started threnghtening that he wont be conducting any marriage or burial ceremony for any family who doesnt pay tithes regularly. And that they will start keeping a list of tithe payers. I have seen a pastor who became hostile and indirectly pronouncing curses on the altar on people because they didnt give as much as he expected for a church building. That day scared me sh!tless. Must have been the last day I took any pastor seriously.

Goshen360: Waiting for Olaadegbu and his offspring, Bidam and perhaps, other Judaizers will come also.

Image123: funny thread. i guess good is now by highest votes, and those who teach scriptural tithing are not reputable. Folks like Jesus Christ, Peter and Paul.

Bidam: Don't mind this guy,even the folks he quoted talk about going beyond 10% which i believe they understand it as a token a believer should give God.To be sincere the offerings an individual give cumulatively every meetings he attends church could be far greater than the tithes which is once a month.

Goshen360: ^ I'm not gonna derail my brother's thread. I will have time and start a thread for you and me on this law and lawlessness issue you always come up with. Meanwhile, I leave you alone because you don't even understand the scripture I gave you. Lemme leave you not to derail this thread.