Luke 14: 33 has Jesus saying the following;

So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

What did Jesus mean? To be his disciple, is one supposed to forsake one's family, career, properties, ambitions, etc, etc. What does "all that he hath" mean? Or should this only apply to men?

He means that Discipleship, that is the discipline of practicing christianity involves learning to detach yourself from material possessions and social status and all the stuff that we cling on to and take up so much of our energy but is ultimately futile. All those desire that actually enslave us.

"Perform all thy actions with mind concentrated on the divine, renouncing attachment and looking upon success and failure with an equal eye. Spirituality implies equanimity."

Lord Shri Krishna

Pastor AIO:

He means that Discipleship, that is the discipline of practicing christianity involves learning to detach yourself from material possessions and social status and all the stuff that we cling on to and take up so much of our energy but is ultimately futile. All those desire that actually enslave us.

"Perform all thy actions with mind concentrated on the divine, renouncing attachment and looking upon success and failure with an equal eye. Spirituality implies equanimity."

Lord Shri Krishna

Would be interesting to know how you derive this meaning from the very simple and clear text of Luke 14: 33. Did Jesus not order prospective followers to sell all their belongings and give the money to the poor and following him?

So what is more in keeping with the spirit of Luke 14: 33?

1) The injunction to sell all ones belongings and follow him
2) To become detached from ones possessions and ambitions.


BTW, what is wrong with the direct literal understanding of Luke 14: 33? Why does it need re-interpreting?

I believe that Jesus instructed one particular individual to sell all that he has and follow him. Why? I don't know. But possibly Jesus saw his clinging to his possessions as been his greatest stumbling block.

By follow him, I don't think Jesus meant that we should seek where he is and then start to walk behind him following him everywhere. When you 'follow' Jesus quite naturally things will come into your possession and in due course they will slip out of your possession. Nothing can change that. When something belongs (I mean belong in a specialised sense) to one it will be next to impossible for that person to throw that thing away.

However clinging on to things. Status, goods, people. The problem with that is that the clinging distracts you from Christ. The two are mutually exclusive. You can either cling to christ or cling to material things. It's not the material things in themselves that distract you from Christ but the clinging to them.

Pastor AIO:

I believe that Jesus instructed one particular individual to sell all that he has and follow him. Why? I don't know. But possibly Jesus saw his clinging to his possessions as been his greatest stumbling block.

By follow him, I don't think Jesus meant that we should seek where he is and then start to walk behind him following him everywhere. When you 'follow' Jesus quite naturally things will come into your possession and in due course they will slip out of your possession. Nothing can change that. When something belongs (I mean belong in a specialised sense) to one it will be next to impossible for that person to throw that thing away.

However clinging on to things. Status, goods, people. The problem with that is that the clinging distracts you from Christ. The two are mutually exclusive. You can either cling to christ or cling to material things. It's not the material things in themselves that distract you from Christ but the clinging to them.

Thankx. I get what you mean and understand your distinction about "material" and the clinging onto them.

What do you think a first century audience of Jesus might have understood by Luke 14:33? There is nowhere in Jesus' teachings in the present context where he makes the distinction clear and cautious about misunderstanding the subtle undertones.

In the context of his other utterances, one can easily deduce that he had a particular strong abhorence of wealth, as in the following;

1) It is easier for a camel to go thru the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of god.

2) In the "parable" of Lazarus, the rich man and Abraham, the rich man is presented as going to hell for no other reason than for being rich. The poor man Lazarus goes to heaven for being poor. No other character traits of Lazarus and the rich man are presented other than their penury and wealth.

Luke 14:33 does not in itself say having wealth is bad but rather that we should renounce our wealth. I believe that when something is yours you cannot even throw it away.

As regards how the 1st century audience would have percieved it, I don't know. It is obvious that christianity (as with any special group) is jam packed with jargon. Many passages can only be understood by those that are familiarised with the jargon. It states explicitly in the gospels that jesus spoke in codes and parables and that he later explained these in private to his disciples. So quite possibly even the majority of people who came to listen to him wouldn't have understood his jargon.

For example I've heard that the Eye of a Needle was a gate in jerusalem that was very small. Camels couldn't get through it. Sorry I can't provide you with references but it's been a long time since I heard that.


As for Lazarus, what can I say. Perhaps there is more to that story than meets the eye. Otherwise every rich man shall go to hell including abraham, and Job and many others.

Two of Jesus greatest innovations were;

1) The doctrine of hell as a place of eternal punish, and
2) His intense disapproval of wealth and progress.

The Old Testament is very positive about wealth and also paints a picture of hell which is deeply antithetical to JC's view of hell. These are JC greatest legacies. Everything else he plagiarised from the OT tradition.

Jesus means 'THE SAVIOUR OF THE WHOLE WORLD'

The conquest is concerned primarily with the entering of the people of Israel into the land of Canaan under Joshua. The name Joshua comes from the Hebrew meaning “salvation” or “the Lord saves”. The Greek form of Joshua is Jesus and also means salvation or Savior. This is no coincidence but a part of the redemptive plan of God for the land into which God will lead His covenant people is the land where Jesus the Messiah would be born. The meaning of Joshua's name will become a key that helps to unlock the book of Joshua.

From here: http://www.abu.nb.ca/ecm/Josh00b.htm



Gender: Male
Origin: Hebrew
Meaning: The Hebrew name Joshua means - God is my salvation. Bible: led the Israelites into the Promised Land

from here:http://www.babynamescountry.com/meanings/Joshua.html

And, by the way, the name isn't Jesus it is Yehoshu'a. Or more fully Yahweh oshu'a.

Jesus is the English word for the greek translation of the Hebrew name Joshua

Hence Jesus was never called Jesus when he was on earth.

Yet when you use the word Jesus, it still works. This means the power is not in the letters but the character that it defines. yipeeeeeeeeeee!

fyneguy:

Jesus is the English word for the greek translation of the Hebrew name Joshua

Hence Jesus was never called Jesus when he was on earth.

Yet when you use the word Jesus, it still works. This means the power is not in the letters but the character that it defines. yipeeeeeeeeeee!

Funny you should say that. Many people claiming christianity will strongly disagree. I agree btw. Some people make such a big deal about the mighty name of JEEEEESSUUUUSS!!! (earth trembles). And there are all these formulaic phrases like 'the blood of the lamb' etc. But what is important is the intent. If a pagan man prays to his creator What difference is there from the christian who prays to Jesus.

on the other hand if the Name ( and getting it right) is such an issue then there is no christian ( in the english speaking world) who is not decieving him/herself.

I meant to say I agree By The Way. I don't know why the letters B.T. W are being translated into between. This is a common internet abbreviation. Perhaps it's God's way of contributing to this 'lost in translation' discussion.

Pastor AIO:

I meant to say I agree By The Way. I don't know why the letters B.T. W are being translated into between. This is a common internet abbreviation. Perhaps it's God's way of contributing to this 'lost in translation' discussion.

By the way = BTW
between = BTW (in lower cases)

@Pastor AIO: I am reading too many "I don't know," in your responses, here. Yet, you were able to sneak in, subtle opinion, that you think will fly , except that it flies in the face of the facts. The facts that are coming from Jesus.

If Jesus was addressing just one man, we would have seen it, because of the way he had directly, by name addresses the others, in specific situations. For example, where he addressed the fishermen to leave their trade for a better fishing gig; Fishing for men.

What Christianity is fond of is interpreting, thereby changing or giving a "different" meaning to what is simply obvious, literally. How can we look at Jesus more than a human being if we just take what he is reported to have said on its merit, and nothing more?


@Huxley: You must also understand that if the Christians truly follow the injuctions of Jesus, without putting a twist into what Jesus meant, there would never have been any controversies. But the christians have become Jesus' mind readers, rather than his "read my lips," listeners. They are fond of doing this, since their idea about Jesus is completely different from what Jesus thought of himself.

Should anyone have a different read to what is very clear, literally? If Jesus is absolute to the christians, then there should not any reason that any of his statement be given any other meaning than what he actually said. You see hypocracy at its highest when what Jesus said is different from the Christians are taking it to be or doing with it.

Mark 10:17-23. Jesus was referring to one specific man. Jesus was especially moved by this man's plight. The gospel says that looking at him Jesus loved the guy. It finishes with the eye of the needle quote. All is in reference to this one man. What is it that is so special about this one man. Pride. Religious pride. This man had meticulously ensured that he had observed every article of the law. Far from being a redeeming feature it actually contributed to his downfall because it puffed up the guy. For many of us our status amongst our peers is another stumbling block. People that are considered holy or spiritually advanced by their peers (not necessarily by God, note) are usually in danger of this. I suggest you familiarise yourself with the passage.

When I say that I don't know that is because I DON'T know. I am not the type to tried to try to impress with my knowledge. If you subsequently consider me ignorant that is your affair. Unlike you, I don't know everything, I'm sorry.

I don't know how you arrive at meaning without any interpreting. All text is open to interpretation. All I know is what I understand by a text. I cannot say this is what the writer means or whether he actually means anything in the sense that humans communicating have an intent they are communicating.

Today's New International Version


Mark 10:17-23.

The Rich and the Kingdom of God
17 As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

18 "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone.

19 You know the commandments: 'You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, you shall not defraud, honor your father and mother.'

20 "Teacher," he declared, "all these I have kept since I was a boy."

21 Jesus looked at him and loved him. "One thing you lack," he said. "Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

22 At this the man's face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth.

23 Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, "How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!"


King James Version

10:17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?

10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God.

10:19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

10:20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.

10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

10:22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.

10:23 And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!

He is saying that when it comes to a time when you will have to choose between following His will or following family, there your love is tested. You must be willing to follow him with or without family, friends, houses, lands, or whatever material possesions.


Jesus said that he who puts his hand to the plough and turns back is not worthy of the kingdom.

You must be willing to forsake anything and everything when the need arises. Nothing should be too dear for you to give away for the Kingdom.

Jesus said, he who seeks to save his life will loose it but he who looses his life for the gospel's sake will find it.


Mark 10

17And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?

18And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

19Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

20And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.

21Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

22And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.


23And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!

24And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!

25It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.



How sad, he did not have faith. For if he knew who it was that told him to go sell all he's got, he'll run off immediately to perform the task.

Unfortunately too, this is where many religious folk usually stop in the reading of this passage and they say oh, no rich man shall enter heaven but the passage dosn't end here!

The bible says Jesus loved him and asked him to go sell all he's got and give to the poor but he did not know it was out of love that the command was given. Look at the remaining part lof the passage. . .




26And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?

27And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.




Halleluyah!!!!!!!!!




28Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee.

29And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,

30But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.



Can you now see why many of the great men of God who have forsaken all are greatly blessed and of course with plenty plenty persecution? Of course the world does not understand this type of prosperity so they fight it.

BTW, what is wrong with the direct literal understanding of Luke 14: 33? Why does it need re-interpreting?

It is not re-interpreting. It is the meaning of what is said. If you know anything about following Christ, you will know that all that we long for is not in the material. What Christ asks of us is always in the Spiritual. So when we read it we see that Christ is asking us to not dwell on the physical material things but on becoimg closer to God and worshipping God and walking in the light (goodness).

Christ used a lot of metaphors and spoke a lot in Parables. You will only understand it if you trust and believe in him and ask guidance from the Spirit. If you look at it from the "flesh" view you won't understand it. To be in flesh is to be worldly.

But this verse is saying that in order for you to be a true follower of Christ you have to let go of things of this world, car money, all those material possessions that rule people's lives. When you can't let go of it, you show that you value it more than Christ, if you value it more than Christ then you are not a true follower of Christ, but a follower of material things. Christ is also showing that these things are not important, especially since you cannot take it with you when you die. But when you follow him, you will have what matters most, eternal life. Being a true disciple of Christ he will claim you as his own and will not subject you to eternal damnation after death.

Basically do cars, money, houses, and all material things mean more to you than Christ?

In light of the subject of this thread, how can any christian claim that his wealth and possessions are his evidence that God is blessing him and he is close to God?

What it also brings to my attention is the issue of Value. Especially when you consider that Value is what we are all pursuing and it is in fact that motivation of all dynamics/movement/behaviour.

More later . . .

@pastor aio
this is but Job's testimony , right?
god blesses and rewards with material things. It is in the bible.

My lazy stubborn trouble-seeking me refused to read through, but what i've already deduced is that it seems people love their friends and family more than God today. They want to give 'God's money' to their friends o!

Image123:

My lazy stubborn trouble-seeking me refused to read through, but what i've already deduced is that it seems people love their friends and family more than God today. They want to give 'God's money' to their friends o!

You omit your prosperity pastors with private jets, grand mansions, numerous business interests etc. Isnt that contradictory?

diluminati:

You omit your prosperity pastors with private jets, grand mansions, numerous business interests etc. Isnt that contradictory?

Good addition, you've fulfilled your purpose.

zataxs:

@pastor aio
this is but Job's testimony , right?
god blesses and rewards with material things. It is in the bible.

Are you asking me or are you telling me?

you said,

In light of the subject of this thread, how can any christian claim that his wealth and possessions are his evidence that God is blessing him and he is close to God?

What it also brings to my attention is the issue of Value. Especially when you consider that Value is what we are all pursuing and it is in fact that motivation of all dynamics/movement/behaviour.

and i am saying, by showing Job's story as an good illustration of how "wealth and possessions are his evidence that God is blessing him".

zataxs:

you said,

and i am saying, by showing Job's story as an good illustration of how "wealth and possessions are his evidence that God is blessing him".

Pastor AIO:

In light of the subject of this thread, how can any [size=13pt]christian[/size] claim that his wealth and possessions are his evidence that God is blessing him and he is close to God?

huxley:



So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

Read the above quotes. Further ask yourself, was Job a disciple of Jesus, ie was he a christian? And then ask yourself whether your contribution has any relevance whatsoever to what is being discussed.

@ Pastor AIO
Are we completely disassociating ourselves with the old testament? Jesus will not be happy about this.

point taken

zataxs:

@ Pastor AIO
Are we completely disassociating ourselves with the old testament? Jesus will not be happy about this.

point taken

17For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
Matt 13.

1. You don't have to be a christian to give, first.
2. Which poor people do you give to? some are clearly undeserving, they are already shooting up drugs with what you gave them last, Also the children home you donated to is raping boys , do we give them anyway?
3. Is giving everything a reasonable request? What if you give everything you have and starve to death. Like the woman that Jesus praised? Where did Jesus say we draw the line? what if she died out of poverty because she did not have anything else and no means to provide for her self?
4. Do we give all to the church? and what if they are not deserving, driving big cars? using it for dowry? wasting it on fancy furniture? do we give still?
5. Do I snatch off the plate of my kids and my plate to give others, ?
6. Is giving left to my discretion or my holy spirit will guide me?. If you say the Holy Spirit, does that then explain Christians are not giving enough, like the woman Jesus praised? some don't give at all, is that the Holy Spirit still?
7. Once we have done all the giving ( to church, to the poor etc) how is the money given used up, Where are the laws of how it is distributed? and to whom by whom? does it matter if it is squandered?

You see , suddenly no one has anything of note to say, tsk tsk tsk, even Pastor AIO?

What would you like me to say?

@Pastor AIO it will be nice if you answered the questions, or at least make an attempt, or perhaps acknowledge the shortcoming of the Bible/Jesus/God.