The False Promise of the Prosperity
Gospel: Why I Called Out Joel Osteen
and Joyce Meyer


I have been preaching for 20 years.
Yesterday I did something that I have
never done before in a sermon. I
publicly called out false teachers and
named them by name. I said:
If you listen to Joel Osteen and
Joyce Meyer, if you take what
they teach seriously, it will not
be good for you. It will be
detrimental to your long-term
growth as a follower of Jesus.
(You can watch my sermon here.)
I used to think that their error was so
blatantly obvious that they could just
be ignored. I was wrong. They are
massively growing in popularity in
the evangelical world and are seen as
credible and helpful. Before I'm
inundated with questioning emails I
want to share why I distrust these
two and think you should as well. So,
don't shoot me -- at least not yet.
When I was a kid I could tell the
difference between neighborhood kids
who wanted to be my friend from the
neighborhood kids who were my
friends so that they could play with
my toys. Joel and Joyce are the
latter. They both teach a twisted form
of Christianity that teaches
obedience, giving and faith as a way
to get things from God. They are both
products of what is known as the
Prosperity Gospel and The Word of
Faith Movement, or the Seed Faith
Movement. Dangers of the Prosperity
Gospel
John Piper does a great job of
defining what the Prosperity Gospel
is and why it is so sinister. Please
take a few minutes to watch this
before moving on the critiques of
Joyce Meyer and Joel Osteen:
Joyce Meyer
When I first heard her tell her story I
was deeply moved and impressed.
She is an amazing example of
overcoming hurts and abuse. She will
forever have my admiration and
respect in that regard. Furthermore,
she gives spectacular advice. If my
wife or if one of my daughters went
to her in a moment of crisis, I believe
they would return with magnificently
helpful advice. If they went to her for
teaching, they would return with
deadly heresy.
False Doctrine
1. She teaches that Jesus literally
stopped being the Son of God on the
Cross (listen here):
"He could have helped himself
up until the point where he said
I commend my spirit into your
hands, at that point he couldn't
do nothing for himself anymore.
He had become sin, he was no
longer the Son of God. He was
sin."
2. She teaches that Jesus went to
Hell and became the first-born again
man (listen here):
"Do you know something? The
minute that blood sacrifice was
accepted Jesus was the first
human being that was ever born
again. Now that was real it
happened when he was in hell."
3. She teaches that Jesus paid for our
sins in Hell:
"There is no hope of anyone
going to heaven unless they
believe this truth I am
presenting. You cannot go to
heaven unless you believe with
all your heart that Jesus took
your place in hell" -From The
Most Important Decision You
Will Ever Make
4. She teaches that words have power
and you can release the power of
Heaven through your words.
5. She teaches that you need special
revelation from God to understand
what she teaches because it is NOT
contained in the Bible (listen here):
"The Bible can't even find any
way to explain this. Not really.
That's why you've got to get it
by revelation. There are no
words to explain what I'm telling
you. I've got to just trust God
that He's putting it into your
spirit like He put it into mine."
From " What Happened From the
Cross to The Throne
"
"Now spirits don't have bodies,
so we can't see them. Okay?
There probably is, I believe there
is, and I certainly hope there is
several angels up here this
morning that are preaching with
me. I believe that right before I
speak some anointed statement
to you, that one of them bends
over and says in my ear what
I'm supposed to say to you."
From "Witchcraft & Related
Spirits" (Part 1) - 2 A-27
Audiotape)
6. She teaches that she is no longer a
sinner.
Unfortunately I could continue with
examples of her utter misuse of
scripture, false teaching and blatant
heresy. In America, Christians have
an embarrassment of riches. We can
buy more books, download more
podcasts and tune into more helpful
teachers than anyone else on the
planet. The lies that she teaches are
easily lost in the hum of all the great
teachers we hear. But this is not the
case in the third world.
In many other countries their
resources are far fewer. Uneducated
pastors, who are doing their very
best and uninformed Christians have
this garbage pumped into their
countries through radio waves and TV
broadcasts. Because Joyce Meyer is
endorsed here, she is trusted there.
And, she can afford to spread her
message with the money she makes
from American Christians who buy
her books, CDs and who attend her
conferences. Her influence is severely
disrupting the church in the third
world. Her teachings are the
unfortunate starting point for
Christians in the third world and it is
birthing even greater heresies.
The devastating reality that we have
to come to grips with is that when we
support her here, we support the
churches she is undoing there.
Financial Concerns
There is nothing wrong with being
wealthy. I love it when Christians are
rich. That should mean more money
to fund the mission. But there is a
line to how much money we as
leaders should spend on ourselves. I
don't know where the line is, but it is
somewhere before the ministry
purchasing million dollar homes for
us and our kids. That line is
somewhere before purchasing us a $
10 million private jet. The line is
somewhere before the ministry
spending $261, 498 for 68 pieces of
furniture. That equates to $3,845.56
per item. That line is somewhere
before spending so egregiously that
the U.S. Senate investigates us.
Joyce Meyer lands on the other side
of that line.
The following link includes audio
from Joyce Meyer. Around 5:30 she is
asked if people will get more money
back to them if they give financially
to her ministry.
Not only does she teach giving as a
way to leverage more money from
God, she is reckless with desperate
people. She is not at all concerned if
people give to her instead of paying
bills. This is intolerable!
Questionable Example and Lack of
Accountability
I challenge you to watch a typical
message by Joyce Meyer. Here are a
few of things you will notice:
She pauses about every five minutes
for applause. And if people don't
applaud she is likely to say
something like, "I'm preaching better
than you're acting."
She talks about herself constantly.
She is the main character in every
story she tells. Even when she talks
about herself in a self-deprecating
way, some how it comes across in a
way that causes people to admire her
more.
God talks to her and reveals new
information to her... a lot!
Her ministry lacks real accountability.
Her family and her close friends are
the governing board. This is an
organization that receives almost $
100 million dollars annually, and with
no substantive accountability.
Conclusion for Joyce Meyer
What I wrote and linked in the first
section should have been enough to
completely remove her from our
sphere of trust. Her doctrine is
horrific. Her hermeneutics are
horrible. She is a woman who seems
to have an unrestrained love for
money and applause. Her finances are
questionable at best. Her example is
questionable at best. Her impact on
desperate people here, as well as
churches and pastors around the
globe is wildly destructive.
I lament with you a sense of loss if
she was a teacher you trusted. I
lament that someone who is so wrong
has so much influence with so many.
I do not regret, however, pointing to
her as a false teacher and as one who
should be rejected.
Joel Osteen
Like Joyce Meyer, Joel Osteen has
some really great things to say. He is
encouraging and the man is certainly
happy. This should not be held
against him.
The man is confused on theology. He
has much of the same doctrinal
misunderstandings as does Joyce
Meyer. They come from the same
tradition. His doctrine is difficult to
discern for many because he won't
talk about doctrine. He won't talk
about theology. He quickly back
pedals when asked hard questions, as
seen here in an interview with Larry
King.
In fairness, Joel published a letter of
apology after this interview.
While I commend him for his humility
and courage to publicly declare that
he was wrong, this is just one of too
many instances. He frequently
misunderstands important matters of
faith and doctrine when being
interviewed. He repeatedly gets the
Gospel wrong. And he does so when
talking to millions.
If we take Joel at his word, our only
conclusion is that he is either
incapable or unwilling to understand
and explain how the Gospel
intersects with all of life.
We recently hosted Hank Hanegraaff
(The Bible Answerman) at SMCC. He
has some very helpful insights (here
and here) into Joel Osteen's confused
views of faith, doctrine and Scripture:
Joel Osteen and Prosperity Gospel
The Prosperity Gospel is much like all
other religions in that it uses faith, it
uses doing good things to leverage
material blessings from God.
Essentially, use God to get things
from God.
"God has already done
everything He's going to do. The
ball is now in your court. If you
want success, if you want
wisdom, if you want to be
prosperous and healthy, you're
going to have to do more than
meditate and believe; you must
boldly declare words of faith and
victory over yourself and your
family" From Your Best Life Now,
p.132
"If you are believing for your
child to find God, go help
somebody else's child to
develop a relationship with God.
If you're struggling financially,
go out and help somebody who
has less than you have ... f you
want to reap financial blessings,
you must sow financial seeds in
the lives of others ... If you want
to see healing and restoration
come to your life, go out and
help somebody else get well"
From Your Best Life Now, pp.
224, 250-51
This is not the Gospel. This is a false
Gospel. Joel teaches that we open
ourselves to God to get more from
God. He teaches that we use our
words to speak into existence a
better reality. This straight from the
Word of Faith Movement. This is not
what is taught throughout the New
Testament. Consider what the
Apostle Paul wrote. And remember
that he wrote this while in prison.
Philippians 4:10-13 I rejoiced greatly
in the Lord that at last you renewed
your concern for me. Indeed, you
were concerned, but you had no
opportunity to show it. I am not
saying this because I am in need, for
I have learned to be content whatever
the circumstances. I know what it is
to be in need, and I know what it is
to have plenty. I have learned the
secret of being content in any and
every situation, whether well fed or
hungry, whether living in plenty or in
want. I can do all this through him
who gives me strength.
Conclusion
When I was in seminary, Heather and
I were poor. There were seasons in
which I worked 70+ hours a week
while taking a full-time Master's
load. There were times that I had to
sleep every other day so that I could
get all my work done. This was an
extended period of exhausting
financial stress.
During this time, I remember reading
something from Joel Osteen. He and
his wife claimed by faith a new house
that they wanted. Joel was unsure,
but his wife Victoria was confident.
And she lovingly chastised him for
his lack of faith. Sometime later, they
purchased that house. Still in
seminary, my wife and I were walking
through our dream neighborhood and
that was playing through my mind. As
I walked through the neighborhood,
looking at all the homes, I wanted so
badly for what Joel is teaching to be
true. I don't know if you can
understand how desperately I wanted
it to be true.
I wanted relief and I wanted more. But
I knew that it wasn't true. I knew that
my exhaustion and desperation made
me emotionally vulnerable to this
false Gospel. I'm educated and well
read. I've haven't just read the Bible,
I've translated large chunks of it from
the original Hebrew and Greek. I think
I understand it. I think I have a
relatively significant level of
discernment. But for a moment, I was
emotionally vulnerable to this false
doctrine.
What about the millions of others
who are desperate, searching, hoping
and vulnerable without the
discernment? We owe it to them to
not tolerate a false gospel any longer.
If you made it to the end of this blog
post, congratulations. This is a thick
and heavy subject. Even though I've
written much, this only begins to
scratch the surface of the repugnant
nature of the Prosperity Gospel.

Rick Henderson is a pastor who blogs
at churchismessy.com. This post first
appeared on his blog.
http://huffpost.com/us/entry/3790384

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In my opinion,majority of so called christians go to church for what they can get. They worship God for certain benefits not because they love Him intrinsically.

That being said,I keep opining that the messages one hear being preached from christian pulpits are no different from what you'd hear in an Eck serminar or a Grail Message meeting amongst others. The only difference is that the christian preacher invokes the name of Jesus Christ in passing across his message as opposed to Abd Du Rusheen or any other new age teacher. It's all about positive thinking.

OP, some things you pointed out as false are actually true.
While it is true that one will have personal shortcomings and mistakes in doctrinal or ministerial issues does not make them entirely wrong. Peter had doctrinal errors, which God personally did correct him. Paul had ministerial errors which he later learnt from. Called by God does not mean perfection.

idnoble135: OP, some things you pointed out as false are actually true.
While it is true that one will have personal shortcomings and mistakes in doctrinal or ministerial issues does not make them entirely wrong. Peter had doctrinal errors, which God personally did correct him. Paul had ministerial errors which he later learnt from. Called by God does not mean perfection.

On point bro, though I could not read through for the length but the little I read was not what I was expecting!

Pastor Olu T:

On point bro, though I could not read through for the length but the little I read was not what I was expecting!

Both are called of God. The OP lays out alot of their doctrines in quotes. And not all are false. Maybe some of those things that are called false are simply because the OP has not yet researched them out from the Word.
Some of the quotes are truly false. But we Christians need to calm down. God's servants are prone to error. Looking at the Bible, Moses, Joshua, David, they all made errors.
Teachers teach not because they know everything or because their knowledge is perfect. Even in the ministry, we keep learning from God.

4C2215131: In my opinion,majority of so called christians go to church for what they can get. They worship God for certain benefits not because they love Him intrinsically.

That being said,I keep opining that the messages one hear being preached from christian pulpits are no different from what you'd hear in an Eck serminar or a Grail Message meeting amongst others. The only difference is that the christian preacher invokes the name of Jesus Christ in passing across his message as opposed to Abd Du Rusheen or any other new age teacher. It's all about positive thinking.

@the bolded ,i must agree with you. Most of our modern pentecostal preachers are motivational speakers and nothing more. While you can see that they evidently succeed in motivating their members to higher achievements(something Deepak Chopra, Iyanla Vanzant etc also do nicely), they add little or nothing to their spiritual growth. So we have our Church buildings filled on sunday mornings but no decrease in the crimes and moral decadence of the society. Testimonies of one breakthrough or the other are printed and spread through mass mobilisation, an activity they erroneously tag 'evangelism' asking people to come receive their miracle with no effort to introduce them properly to the giver of that miracle.

They won't be out of business anytime soon as long as we have hopelessness and despondency in the land but i wish they'll be honest enough to stick to their motivational messages and leave the gospel stewardship to those who are really entrusted with it. The message of the cross is far greater than bling bling and jeeps.

I have read some Joel Osteen books infact i have 'It's your time' here with me but i dont delude myself thinking i'll get closer to Christ reading it. There is very little difference between it and Deepak Chopra's 'why is God laughing' and Chopra isn't a Christian.

Though motivational messages have their place, they'll never take the place of the gospel and we should learn to separate them so we don't fall into error.

Imagine churches these days turning tithing matters to matters of INVESTMENT. That is, whoever is paying his/her tithes is doing so because of the financial blessings attached in returns, not necessarily to obey the word of God, which is the paramount essence of tithing. Therefore, all these scheming to always FORCE hard earned resources from the people of God today amounts to nothing but FALSE TEACHINGS.
Mind you, I am a supporter to tithing but, not a supporter to the tricks the pastors of today are using to get it implemented. Thank you.

Peter, You have started again. Do'nt just copy and paste. listen to a preacher first and then post exactly the preacher said.

idnoble135:
Both are called of God. The OP lays out alot of their doctrines in quotes. And not all are false. Maybe some of those things that are called false are simply because the OP has not yet researched them out from the Word.
Some of the quotes are truly false. But we Christians need to calm down. God's servants are prone to error. Looking at the Bible, Moses, Joshua, David, they all made errors.
Teachers teach not because they know everything or because their knowledge is perfect. Even in the ministry, we keep learning from God.

FRIEND THE OP IS TRUE. I HAVE LISTENED TO BOTH PREACHERS. IT WAS JOEL OLSTEEN THAT CLAIMED GAYS WILL MAKE HEAVEN. HE SAID HE HAS ABOUT 16 TOUSAND GAYS IN HIS CHURCH, AND THAT GOD CANT JUST CAST THEM TO HELL. HE CLAIMED GOD IS MERCIFUL AND THEY WILL ALSO MAKE HEAVEN. PLS IS THAT NOT HERESY.

I DECIDED TO POST IT HERE MYSELF BECAISE I HAVE LISTENED AND AM ALSO A WITNESS TO THAT BLOG, IF NOT I WOULDNT HAVE POSTED IT HERE.

^^^

You're speaking out of plain ignorance. I've listened to Joel Osteen far many times, apart from being in his church many times, to know that your views of him are incorrect. And for your information, I've listened a lot to Pastor Lazarus Muoka and testimonies from his church, and there is no difference between both preachers beliefs regarding prosperity. If you have any evidence to the contrary, please point it out directly and clearly, instead of long meaningless messages from others.

Candour:

@the bolded ,i must agree with you. Most of our modern pentecostal preachers are motivational speakers and nothing more. While you can see that they evidently succeed in motivating their members to higher achievements(something Deepak Chopra, Iyanla Vanzant etc also do nicely), they add little or nothing to their spiritual growth. So we have our Church buildings filled on sunday mornings but no decrease in the crimes and moral decadence of the society. Testimonies of one breakthrough or the other are printed and spread through mass mobilisation, an activity they erroneously tag 'evangelism' asking people to come receive their miracle with no effort to introduce them properly to the giver of that miracle.

They won't be out of business anytime soon as long as we have hopelessness and despondency in the land but i wish they'll be honest enough to stick to their motivational messages and leave the gospel stewardship to those who are really entrusted with it. The message of the cross is far greater than bling bling and jeeps.

I have read some Joel Osteen books infact i have 'It's your time' here with me but i dont delude myself thinking i'll get closer to Christ reading it. There is very little difference between it and Deepak Chopra's 'why is God laughing' and Chopra isn't a Christian.

Though motivational messages have their place, they'll never take the place of the gospel and we should learn to separate them so we don't fall into error.

Motivation and motivational messages are part of Christianity and part of any minister's calling. Jesus motivated people. Paul lifted people through his messages. You come out of the presence of God and the presence of those who have been with God and feel relieved and refreshed. There are times you feel burdened by all the devil is throwing at you and all you need is an uplifting message. Just as Joel Osteen may not have drawn you closer to God, others have a different testimony. I was reading one guy on the internet the other day, who didn't seem to be a christian, say that since he started listening to Joel, he has been reading his Bible everyday. The first time I stepped into his church, I felt the presence of God so much, I told that to a friend in another part of the world almost immediately. Every minister has his own calling. Let's do our best to fulfill our calling instead of trying to fit everybody into our mould. I agree with you on one point though: preachers and christians need to do a better job of living a prayerful life and teaching the importance of spending time with God (not just because we want anything). That's where the power lies. And that's the difference between the church of old and today. That's why even those that are not preaching motivation or prosperity are not that much better in transforming anybody's lives. Otherwise, we'd be seeing and hearing of such results. Or perhaps, you have such a list to share?

Noted.

nlMediator:

Motivation and motivational messages are part of Christianity and part of any minister's calling. Jesus motivated people. Paul lifted people through his messages. You come out of the presence of God and the presence of those who have been with God and feel relieved and refreshed. There are times you feel burdened by all the devil is throwing at you and all you need is an uplifting message. Just as Joel Osteen may not have drawn you closer to God, others have a different testimony. I was reading one guy on the internet the other day, who didn't seem to be a christian, say that since he started listening to Joel, he has been reading his Bible everyday. The first time I stepped into his church, I felt the presence of God so much, I told that to a friend in another part of the world almost immediately. Every minister has his own calling. Let's do our best to fulfill our calling instead of trying to fit everybody into our mould. I agree with you on one point though: preachers and christians need to do a better job of living a prayerful life and teaching the importance of spending time with God (not just because we want anything). That's where the power lies. And that's the difference between the church of old and today. That's why even those that are not preaching motivation or prosperity are not that much better in transforming anybody's lives. Otherwise, we'd be seeing and hearing of such results. Or perhaps, you have such a list to share?

I'll not argue with your experience but pls note it's YOUR OWN experience just like i relayed mine. I'm happy we both agree that Ministers should spend more time talking about the the cross than material benefits that might come because of the cross.

I listen to Joseph Prince also and even though he's friends with Joel Osteen, I can't but notice the difference between them. While Osteen quotes from Psalms and Proverbs majorly to make me feel good about myself, Prince opens the bible in a more detailed fashion which leaves his hearers with a better understanding of the bible.

Like I said, I've benefited from the motivational messages just as I've benefited from Gandhi's thoughts.but motivational messages will never take the place of the details of the cross.The message of the cross is not about a better here and now but a glorious new dawn when Christ returns.

Receiving a pep talk on success every Sunday didn't do my Spirit man much good and that is the summary of my post.

Cheers brother

Osteen may mean well and may help some/many on the "motivation" front, but his messages are often wooly and not even supported - truly biblically speaking.

nlMediator: ^^^

You're speaking out of plain ignorance. I've listened to Joel Osteen far many times, apart from being in his church many times, to know that your views of him are incorrect. And for your information, I've listened a lot to Pastor Lazarus Muoka and testimonies from his church, and there is no difference between both preachers beliefs rega
rding prosperity. If you have any evidence to the contrary, please point it out directly and clearly, instead of long meaningless messages from others.

NOW, I KNOW YOU LIE. YOU CLAIM YOU HAVE LISTENED TO PASTOR LAZARUS, AND THAT HE IS A PROPERITY PREACHER. YES HE DOES IT TOO IN THAT AREA AS WELL. BUT IN EVERY PASTOR LAZARUS MESSAGE ON THE PULPIT, HE PREACHES HOLINESS AND TELLS US THAT "A SINNER CANT RECEIVE BLESSINGS FROM THE LORD; A SINNER WILL DIE AND END UP IN HELL IF HE DOES NOT REPENT AND FORSAKE HIS SIN AND SURRENDER TO JESUS." HE ASLO GO ABOUT MENTIONING SINS BY ITS NAME IN EVERY FELLOWSHIP IN HIS MINISTRATION; "LIEING, ANGER, BITTERNESS, STRIFE, FORNICATION, ADULTERY, WOMEN WEARING TROUSERS, DIVORCE, MASTURBATION, HOMOSEXUALISM, LESBIANISM, POLYGAMY, KILLING, ABORTION, ETC HE BACKED THEM UP WITH THE VERSES IN THE SCRIPTURE AND AT THE END HE WILL SAY IF YOU ARE INTO SHADDY BUSINESS LIKE DRUG DEALINGS, PROSTITUTION, OCCULTISM, ARMED ROBBERY, OR YOU SELL ALCOHOL, "PLEASE DONT PUT YOUR MONEY IN OUR OFFERING OR ELSE THE JUDGEMENT GOD WILL COME UPON. REPENT AND FORSAKE THAT WICKEDNESS BEFORE YOU START GIVING TO GOD."

SO FRIEND, HOW IS PASTOR LAZARUS PREACHING THE SAME WITH JOEL OLSTEEN. AND THE DRESSING STYLE OF MEMBERS IN JOEL OLSTEEN IS FAR DIFFERENT FROM MEMBERS OF THE CHOSEN WHICH I AM ALSO A MEMBER.

WHY DO YOU LIKE TO LIE LIKE THIS. IF I WANT TO POST THE VIDEO OF JOEL OLSTEEN INTERVIEW ON CNN CLAIMING GAYS CAN ALSO GO TO HEAVEN I WOULD HAVE DONE THAT. THE POINT IS WHEN YOU SEE PEOPLE PREACHING FALSE MESSAGES, IT IS GOOD PEOPLE KNOWW THIS SO THAT THEY DONT GET DECEIVED.

WHEN PASTOR CHRIS OF CHRIST EMBASSY WAS ASKED IF MASTURBATION IS A SIN, ISTEAD OF HIM TO ANSWER YES DIRECTLY, HE WAS BEATING ABOUT THE BUS. CLAIMING THEIR IS NOTHING WRONG WITH IT AND ALSO TATOOS. IS THAT NOT A PURE HERESY AND SATANIC TEACHING.

MY FRIEND BE TRUTFUL TO YOURSELF!

PASTOR LAZ IS A HOLINES PREACHER, AS WELL AS PASTOR KUMUYI ETC

JOEL IS A MOTIVATIONAL SPEAKER. A PASTOR OR PREACHER WHO DOES NOT PREACH HOLINES IS A FALSE PREACHER.


Colossians 2:6-8 KJV
As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: [7] Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. [8] Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

^^

My brother, I wouldn't be too quick to haul accusations of lying. Especially when the only falsehood here so far has emanated from your corner. First, you claim that Joel Osteen said he has 16 Thousand gays in his church. I have a simple challenge for you: provide just ONE authenticated source that shows Joel Osteen said that and I'll donate $1,000 to any charity of your choice in Nigeria or in the U.S. On the other hand, if you cannot show it within one week, I expect you to retract that false allegation and perhaps apologize to the forum. Second, you suggest I may not have listened to Pastor Muoka. Well, I have - in person (live), on the internet and through his DVDs here at home. And I know that he lists sins and asks evil people not to put money in the offering. But that's not necessarily his teaching on prosperity. It is his teaching on Holiness. When it comes to what a person living a holy life should do to experience God's prosperity, i.e., his prosperity teaching, I see no significant difference between him and Joel. To make it easy, share with us what your church believes about prosperity and I'll compare it with Joel believes so that everyone can see if there is a difference. Third, you seem to suggest that Joel is against holiness. Rubbish. Joel has lived a far purer life than possibly you and any leader in your church. He was raised a pastor's kid and never strayed - of course not saying he has lived a perfect life. On that same CNN you refer to, he and his wife answered the anchor's question that they never kissed anybody in their life, indicating that they never slept with anybody else either. Why do you think he kept himself pure in his youth and in marriage, if not the fact that he was riased to value a holy life? If he and his parents prospered while he lived that way, why do you think he'd encouarage people to live differently? I've seen different pastors in his church preaching to teenagers about keeping themselves sexually pure. I've heard Joel preach against ungodly gain, such as cheating on your taxes or keeping an over-payment made to you by mistake and claiming God has blessed you.

As I told you earlier, your accusation is founded on ignorance.

Candour:

I'll not argue with your experience but pls note it's YOUR OWN experience just like i relayed mine. I'm happy we both agree that Ministers should spend more time talking about the the cross than material benefits that might come because of the cross.

I listen to Joseph Prince also and even though he's friends with Joel Osteen, I can't but notice the difference between them. While Osteen quotes from Psalms and Proverbs majorly to make me feel good about myself, Prince opens the bible in a more detailed fashion which leaves his hearers with a better understanding of the bible.

Like I said, I've benefited from the motivational messages just as I've benefited from Gandhi's thoughts.but motivational messages will never take the place of the details of the cross.The message of the cross is not about a better here and now but a glorious new dawn when Christ returns.

Receiving a pep talk on success every Sunday didn't do my Spirit man much good and that is the summary of my post.

Cheers brother

Joel is NOT a theological giant and have never claimed to be one. In fact, he would be the first to tell you that. He always refers to the fact that he was content working the cameras for his dad and would never get up to preach, despite his father's urging on numerous occasions. If you can find the video of when Joseph Prince came to preach at Lakewood for the first time, you’d hear Joel saying that he marvels at Joseph Prince's knowledge of the Bible and his ability to present deep truth from familiar scriptures. It’s not God’s plan that only the deep theologians can preach the Word and minister to people. For the deep and mature, there are the Joseph Princes of this world to minister to them. To those who crave simplicity, a simple messenger like Joel is there for them. That’s the beauty of our God. Trying to delegitimize one group of ministers by calling them motivational speakers is completely unwarranted. And interesting that you’d complain that Joel is preaching about success, while raising Joseph Prince as different. First, Joel’s message is about Hope (even “his” Bible is called Hope for Today Bible) not simply success. He gives hope to the hopeless. And this could be people in need of success in their finances or on their jobs. But it also includes people who are burdened by shame, guilt, marital issues, health problems, relationship issues, including relationship with God. Second, I listen to Prince fairly often and I’m looking at his book, “Unmerited Favor” as I type. I’d say that Prince preaches about success more than Joel, including financial success. For one, Prince has messages on tithes. I have listened to Joel for about 10 years now and have scores, if not hundreds of his messages. Not ONE of them teaches tithing. Now, I’m not complaining that Prince preaches about success. I need every Success message I can find. And some of you that are successful have scant idea what people in bondage to lack, rejection, dejection and the like are going through. Such people need the Jesus of the Bible, who fed the people spiritually and met their physical needs. Not make them feel terrible for seeking help to meet their basic needs. Finally, so Joseph Prince’s message “is not about a better here and now but a glorious new dawn when Christ returns”?

nlMediator:

Joel is NOT a theological giant and have never claimed to be one. In fact, he would be the first to tell you that. He always refers to the fact that he was content working the cameras for his dad and would never get up to preach, despite his father's urging on numerous occasions. If you can find the video of when Joseph Prince came to preach at Lakewood for the first time, you’d hear Joel saying that he marvels at Joseph Prince's knowledge of the Bible and his ability to present deep truth from familiar scriptures. It’s not God’s plan that only the deep theologians can preach the Word and minister to people. For the deep and mature, there are the Joseph Princes of this world to minister to them. To those who crave simplicity, a simple messenger like Joel is there for them. That’s the beauty of our God. Trying to delegitimize one group of ministers by calling them motivational speakers is completely unwarranted. And interesting that you’d complain that Joel is preaching about success, while raising Joseph Prince as different. First, Joel’s message is about Hope (even “his” Bible is called Hope for Today Bible) not simply success. He gives hope to the hopeless. And this could be people in need of success in their finances or on their jobs. But it also includes people who are burdened by shame, guilt, marital issues, health problems, relationship issues, including relationship with God. Second, I listen to Prince fairly often and I’m looking at his book, “Unmerited Favor” as I type. I’d say that Prince preaches about success more than Joel, including financial success. For one, Prince has messages on tithes. I have listened to Joel for about 10 years now and have scores, if not hundreds of his messages. Not ONE of them teaches tithing. Now, I’m not complaining that Prince preaches about success. I need every Success message I can find. And some of you that are successful have scant idea what people in bondage to lack, rejection, dejection and the like are going through. Such people need the Jesus of the Bible, who fed the people spiritually and met their physical needs. Not make them feel terrible for seeking help to meet their basic needs. Finally, so Joseph Prince’s message “is not about a better here and now but a glorious new dawn when Christ returns”?

My bro, i'm glad we both agree that Osteen's theology has very little depth. Its an example of what is called a 'feel good theology' and i maintain Deepak Chopra, Iyanla vanzant, Rhonda Byrne, Prem Rawat etc do same. This is the reason i call him a motivational speaker rather than a minister of the gospel. His message of hope is good but anybody can deliver a message of hope and i just listed non-Christians who do exactly that.

People need hope and i agree. I know what it means to be desperate and almost hopeless. I got to that point in 2010 after years of high flying success and it was simply the grace of God that got me back. The danger in relying solely on hope and motivational preachings every sunday is the real possibility of slipping into 'new age theology' which also has the total good of man as its central focus. That on the surface isn't bad but going deeper reveals it's real intent which is the relegation of Christ to just one of many spiritual masters and the elevation of man to godhood. Google up 'NEW AGE TEACHINGS' and you'll see what i'm talking about.

Joseph Prince goes deep into the bible and i appreciate that. in fact i was a very ardent follower of his until over 2 years ago when i discovered that the High Priesthood for which he collects tithes is based in heaven(Heb 7) and no agent has been appointed to replace or mirror it on earth. Also his interpretation of Rom 5:17(a cardinal verse of his ministry) no longer sat well with me as he promised a better here and now immediately you come to Christ and that to my understanding is at variance with the central message of all epistles of Paul, Peter, James and John which is an endurance of this present time until our glorification when Christ returns. Even Christ didn't promise us a rose petaled pathway when we come to him. I still listen to him though because he's gifted in bringing the Pentateuch to life.

I can't deny that motivational messages of hope are good for the soul but teaching only hope every sunday or weekday fellowship i repeat will not do any Christian's spiritual life any good. The central message of the Cross isn't wealth but a sound relationship with the father that produces a renewed man from the inside out.It's the message of the expunging of our sin record because Christ took our place.This is the message i believe our preachers should be emphasizing.

Cheers bro

You seem like a fine gentleman and brother and I'll be happy to continue this conversation with you, but we may end up going around in circles, partly because you do not have as much facts as you should. Your exposure to Joel's message seems to be limited, so you are convinced he teaches only the things you think he teaches. For instance, do you know that at Lakeowood they teach about "ancestral curses"? And Deepak and Iyanla do teach hope but you err also on that score. First, the source of their hope is different from the hope Joel preaches - Jesus. They may appeal to the mind and the body but Joel's message with the anointing backing it penetrates to the spirit of man, in addition to the mental and physical realms. To the extent that Dr. Chopra and Ms. Vanzant are able to intervene spiritually, they would only use satanic powers and thus unable to TRULY deliver those under the bondage of their master. Joel's message delivers from demonic bondage, as I can testify to. Second, Jesus also taught on things other thinkers had taught eons before him, and I'm NOT talking of the OT. E.g., the Golden Rule. Following your logic, Jesus should not have mentioned it nor should we teach it today, because Ms. Vanzant can deliver a good message on that or some philosophers of old did? Joel's message may not be as deep as some would want but it has sufficient depth; just that his delivery is different. I've listened to virtually every major faith teacher today and I don't see how the teaching of say, Fred Price is different from Joel's on faith. Joel will give you the same message in summary without teaching the Bible passgaes line by line. Some people prefer Fred Price's approach. I'm fine with Joel's. Important thing is to get the message.

And I'm still trying to grasp what you mean by pointing people to the cross: are you saying every service we have, we should be talking about the cross and it doesn't matter whatever people are going through in their individual lives? Does it matter to you that nobody may even be listening to your beautiful message about the cross when their goods are out in the rain and their children risk sleeping on an empty stomach? Perhaps, you have a great formula for making people ignore their issues and pay serious attention to your CROSS message, as though telling people how to access the benefits Jesus died on the cross to give us is not part of the message.

nlMediator: You seem like a fine gentleman and brother and I'll be happy to continue this conversation with you, but we may end up going around in circles, partly because you do not have as much facts as you should. Your exposure to Joel's message seems to be limited, so you are convinced he teaches only the things you think he teaches. For instance, do you know that at Lakeowood they teach about "ancestral curses"? And Deepak and Iyanla do teach hope but you err also on that score. First, the source of their hope is different from the hope Joel preaches - Jesus. They may appeal to the mind and the body but Joel's message with the anointing backing it penetrates to the spirit of man, in addition to the mental and physical realms. To the extent that Dr. Chopra and Ms. Vanzant are able to intervene spiritually, they would only use satanic powers and thus unable to TRULY deliver those under the bondage of their master. Joel's message delivers from demonic bondage, as I can testify to. Second, Jesus also taught on things other thinkers had taught eons before him, and I'm NOT talking of the OT. E.g., the Golden Rule. Following your logic, Jesus should not have mentioned it nor should we teach it today, because Ms. Vanzant can deliver a good message on that or some philosophers of old did? Joel's message may not be as deep as some would want but it has sufficient depth; just that his delivery is different. I've listened to virtually every major faith teacher today and I don't see how the teaching of say, Fred Price is different from Joel's on faith. Joel will give you the same message in summary without teaching the Bible passgaes line by line. Some people prefer Fred Price's approach. I'm fine with Joel's. Important thing is to get the message.

And I'm still trying to grasp what you mean by pointing people to the cross: are you saying every service we have, we should be talking about the cross and it doesn't matter whatever people are going through in their individual lives? Does it matter to you that nobody may even be listening to your beautiful message about the cross when their goods are out in the rain and their children risk sleeping on an empty stomach? Perhaps, you have a great formula for making people ignore their issues and pay serious attention to your CROSS message, as though telling people how to access the benefits Jesus died on the cross to give us is not part of the message.

you're right we will surely end up going round in circles if we continue the discussion in this way so maybe i'll stop with this post.

I stand by my assessment of Osteen's theology and i'm glad your assessment of him is probably not too far from mine. i might not have spent as much time on his messages as you have but i think i spend enough time listening to him to form an opinion if i see him on 2 separate channels everyday( and i mean everyday) for 30 mins each for over 4 years now.

Zoroaster, Buddha, Confucius all lived hundreds of years before Christ and some of their thoughts can be seen in the moral messages of Jesus but there's a reason you and i came to Christ and not Buddha. Go through my posts and you'll see i DID NOT condemn motivational teachings. My point is that just as Christ came for something far greater than our daily bread, our churches too should concentrate on getting members well versed in the word because only then can we let our light shine brightly before men to point them to the cross. See what i said in a previous post 'I can't deny that motivational messages of hope are good for the soul but teaching only hope every sunday or weekday fellowship i repeat will not do any Christian's spiritual life any good. Its the concentration on the feel good aspects that bother me.

I've listened just like you to a number of faith teachers. i've sat under plenty of their ministrations and believed back then that i was getting the juice of the word but i no longer believe that theory. Their obsession with the material tending towards conspicuous consumption is at variance with what i believe Christ stood for and for this reason i no longer give them the time i used to. It's mostly about getting and more getting in the faith circle now and this leads towards greed and covetousness anyway you look at it.

I appreciate how our discussion went and even if we disagree, i'm delighted we did not become disagreeable. We are all striving to know Christ better. There are things i've learnt from this discussion which will provide a platform for further study.

Thanks and God bless you brother.

Candour: .......Their obsession with the material tending towards conspicuous consumption is at variance with what i believe Christ stood for and for this reason i no longer give them the time i used to. It's mostly about getting and more getting in the faith circle now and this leads towards greed and covetousness anyway you look at it.
........

A very serious problem with each of Word of Faith, prosperity 'gospel' and 'feel-good Christianity'.

There is a difference between a Christian teaching errors and false prophets and teachers.

Joel is not a Christian, he doesn't even know what the gospel of salvation is. I have listened to him both when I used to think he is and now that I know better.

If a preacher teaches error, he can be corrected. But when a false teacher teaches, you cannot correct him because his intention is exactly what he is doing. You can only stay away from him and warn others.

Joel (and many others) do not just preach error, he has DENIED the fundamentals of the gospel. He has denied the purpose of the cross.
Joel preaches Universalism. It is in the preparation of the New Age church under the New World Order that will be led by the anti-Christ.

There is a lot I cannot mention here. I have listened to Joel, again and again, I can only conclude he is not a believer.