Virgin Finder: Come on. The trinity is scriptural and cannot be fully comprehended by we humans.

It's a matter of faith.

Sarassin:

Unless you can show me how the spirit, water and blood constitutes the holy trinity, then no, the concept is not scriptural it is entirely man made.

ammyluv2002: Then you have a choice. ....believe it or not! Is a two way thing

Sarassin: Thus says the Lord, King of Israel…..I am the first and I am the last. Besides me there is no God. (Isaiah 44:6) In this simple elegant incontrovertible statement the primacy and uniqueness of the God of Israel is established. How has Christianity found itself with the doctrine of Trinity found in 1 John 5:7-8

Quite simply, the doctrine of trinity was the direct result of early church leaders confronting what was considered by them to be heretical beliefs by gnostic sects, and the need to explain the newly divine Jesus in the light of monotheism.

Jewish Christians, the Ebionites were adamant there was only One God and Jesus was not God, he was human, For Jesus to be God, it means there are two Gods.

The Marcionites took the opposite view. Jesus wasn’t human precisely because he was God, they didn’t subscribe to the belief that there were two Gods, but that the God of Israel was clearly different.

Then there was Sabellianism, named after Sabellius who was excommunicated for his views, it went something like this; God has different modes of existence, i.e, I am a son in relation to my father, a father in relationship to my son, and a husband in relationship to my wife. Not three people but one person defined by different relationships.

No matter, Tertullian declared all these viewpoints, heretical, saying ‘’ The father is one, and the son is one, and the spirit is one, they are distinct from one another…..’’ Tertullian asserts that even though the three personages in the Godhead are distinct, they are not different in substance, all are God, he propounds ‘’the unity of the trinity’’

Emusan:

The problem that Anti-deity of Jesus have is asking themselves simple question (s ).

When we are talking about Trinity, did we claim that Father is a God, Son is a God and Holyspirit is also a God? No! They simply mean Father who has revealed Himself to His own creations through His own word in a person of Jesus Christ and continue to relate with them through His own Spirit. Very simple.

Both Jesus and Holy spirit are part of God in which nothing can seperate them. Whenever they (Jesus & Holy spirit) are in operations they put God into action without God leaving His throne.

God created the universe through His own word, cursed the whole creations through His own Word, and redeemed and reconcilled them to Himself through His own Word again. In these three phases of work the Holyspirit took a special role too.

Now if you think Trinity means Jesus can do anything on His own it's a lie likewise Holy spirit.

Shalom!

Sarassin:

And therein lies the entire problem with Christianity. The creation of another gospel to accommodate a doctrine that was conceived as a response to orthodoxy-defined heretics. Nowhere in the Bible has God proposed such a doctrine. 1 John 5:7-8 has been shown to be an insertion, no other verses in the NT or OT bears out the doctrine of the trinity. Actually there really is no problem in adherents creating their own beliefs, the problem is in trying to pass off the traditions of men as the work of God.

Emusan:

What does your respond has to do with my post or did I say you Op is wrong?

If that verse is inserted what happen to John 1:10
is better you leave copy and paste work from net, and sit down and read your Bible with clear understanding.

Shalom!

Sarassin:

I am not what you are getting at as I fail to see how John 1:10 advances the cause of the Trinity.
I am very clear that I consider the doctrine of Trinity or any derivative thereof, superfluous
I hope that is clear understanding enough for you.

Emusan:

John 1:10 says "He(Jesus) was in the world, and the world was made by Him(Jesus), and the world knew Him(Jesus) not"

Gen 1:1 & Isaiah 44:24. In these verses God claims responsibilty of creating the universe Himself. Read those verses and compare it with John 1:10.

Mighty Sparrow: remove I John 5: 6 - 7, The trinity is still consistent with the Bible. However, believe what you will. Jesus said, ' believe me for the works that I do .......' I have not seen any group that opposes this doctrine that works in the miraculous. Branham started out with this doctrine deviated and died according to warning to him
All you people have argument not the reality of God.

Sarassin:

How is the doctrine of the trinity still consistent with the Bible after removing 1 John 5:6-7 ? There are no other standalone verses in the Bible that supports it. You simply cannot make a case for it. The quote you have provided has nothing to do with the discussion, it is mere dissembling. The fact that you think no other Christian groups opposed/opposes the doctrine of the trinity indicates you are not familiar with the religion. As for Branham what on earth are you going on about ?

Sarassn:

No, again it's a fudge. Through the mouth of the prophet Isaiah we have the words of God saying ...I am the first and the last Isaiah 44:24 is a continuation of this theme as is Gen 1:1. John 1:10 is an expression of the author of John, lofty and laudable though it is, it does not amount to provenance of a trinity. If anything at all, he contradicts the words of the prophet Isaiah.

Emusan:

The problem that Anti-deity of Jesus have is asking themselves simple question (s ).

When we are talking about Trinity, did we claim that Father is a God, Son is a God and Holyspirit is also a God? No! They simply mean Father who has revealed Himself to His own creations through His own word in a person of Jesus Christ and continue to relate with them through His own Spirit. Very simple.

Both Jesus and Holy spirit are part of God in which nothing can seperate them. Whenever they (Jesus & Holy spirit) are in operations they put God into action without God leaving His throne.

God created the universe through His own word, cursed the whole creations through His own Word, and redeemed and reconcilled them to Himself through His own Word again. In these three phases of work the Holyspirit took a special role too.

Now if you think Trinity means Jesus can do anything on His own it's a lie likewise Holy spirit.

Shalom!

JMAN05:

I dont really get ur position cosit seem to be different from others.

Are you in effect stating that Jesus and Holy Spirit are part of God but not equal to the almighty. just like a hand, a nose is part of you but not equal to you?

explain.

Mighty Sparrow:

You or some one else talked about Nicean creed. I encourage you to get material s on the discourse of the key players. Besides, to claim that Jesus is not a deity is not consistent with the bible.
Who did Isaiah see is his book chapter Six?

Emusan:

Did you get my point at? I'm taking my point from who created the universe and you're there making another point. If John 1:10 is an expression, was it written for fun or about the WORD that became flesh?

The reason I said you should read those verses was that, if those verses claim that God created the universe alone and some said He ccreated by/through Jesus. How did God create it through Jesus?

Emusan:

My point about Trinity maybe different/the same to anyone's view/point but I didnt claim it is universer, is how I understand it from my Bible so far.

God; the Father......is the only God.
The Son.....is the word of the Father whose Father made It to become flesh and sent to what the word created & polluted to purified them in other to reconcile any of the creations who believes in Him to Himself.
The Holyspirit......Is the spirit of the Father.

Both of them have equality in power, action, omnipresent, e.t.c with Father because they reveal true Father in any of their oppration and always with God which make them God too but the Father is greater than them because without instruction from the Father both can't act.

Remember I said what I've understood so far in Bible

Shalom!

Virgin Finder: Come on. The trinity is scriptural and cannot be fully comprehended by we humans.

It's a matter of faith.

Sarassin:

I get your point. Consider however that Isaiah tells us the Lord God says he is the first and last and no others besides him, as does Moses and a host of others, but;

John is alone in explicitly proclaiming the pre-existence of Jesus. (in the beginning the word was with god)
John is alone in proclaiming Jesus as the word made flesh
John is alone in saying that Jesus created the world (John 1:10)
John is also alone in explicitly proclaiming the doctrine of the trinity

Now either Isaiah and the other prophets are all wrong in saying God created the universe alone or John is wrong in his assertions. Both cannot be right unless you create another narrative.
The doctrine of trinity is created in the Book of John to justify the divinity of Jesus that is also proclaimed in the Book of John, there can be no other reason for such a radical doctrine.

Sarassin:

I get your point. Consider however that Isaiah tells us the Lord God says he is the first and last and no others besides him, as does Moses and a host of others, but;

John is alone in explicitly proclaiming the pre-existence of Jesus. (in the beginning the word was with god)
John is alone in proclaiming Jesus as the word made flesh
John is alone in saying that Jesus created the world (John 1:10)
John is also alone in explicitly proclaiming the doctrine of the trinity

Now either Isaiah and the other prophets are all wrong in saying God created the universe alone or John is wrong in his assertions. Both cannot be right unless you create another narrative.
The doctrine of trinity is created in the Book of John to justify the divinity of Jesus that is also proclaimed in the Book of John, there can be no other reason for such a radical doctrine.

Emusan:

My point about Trinity maybe different/the same to anyone's view/point but I didnt claim it is universer, is how I understand it from my Bible so far.

God; the Father......is the only God.
The Son.....is the word of the Father whose Father made It to become flesh and sent to what the word created & polluted to purified them in other to reconcile any of the creations who believes in Him to Himself.
The Holyspirit......Is the spirit of the Father.

Both of them have equality in power, action, omnipresent, e.t.c with Father because they reveal true Father in any of their oppration and always with God which make them God too but the Father is greater than them because without instruction from the Father both can't act.

Remember I said what I've understood so far in Bible

Shalom!

Emusan:
[/b]
My point about Trinity maybe different/the same to anyone's view/point but I didnt claim it is univers[b][/b]er, is how I understand it from my Bible so far.
[b]
God; the Father......is the only God.
The Son.....is the word of the Father whose Father made It to become flesh and sent to what the word created & polluted to purified them in other to reconcile any of the creations who believes in Him to Himself.
The Holyspirit......Is the spirit of the Father.

Both of them have equality in power, action, omnipresent, e.t.c with Father because they reveal true Father in any of their oppration and always with God which make them God too but the Father is greater than them because without instruction from the Father both can't act.

Remember I said what I've understood so far in Bible

Shalom!

JMAN05:

There is no contradiction by any of the writers. God created all things THROUGH Jesus. ie after God created Jesus.

Colossians 1:15-16 KJV
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: [16] For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

by calling him the firstborn of every creature/firstborn of all creation, it shows he was the first to be created. then, God now created all other things Through him.

Hebrews 1:2 KJV
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;


When God said He did all this alone, it is no contradiction 'cos He gave power and direction to Jesus whom He used in doing it. Inshort when God use other persons to do His work, He views it as if He was the one who did it directly. Of course, the same is done even in human government. Only God is the creator but He used Jesus to do it. Jesus cant claim to be the creator because the plan and the power is his Father's.

JMAN05:

then you are no longer talking about trinity cos the father is greater than them. You cant be equal h the person who is greater than you.

again as you said, you cant act without his instruction, as such you are subject to Him. For the fact that the Father can act without your instruction shows that He is not your equal. in fact "equality" and "greater than" are two contradictory words to use for persons.

I cant be equal to you and as well greater than you. how do you see that? research again.

Sarassin:

The contradictions remain. The creation story monologue of Genesis 1 bears this out, a litany of thirty odd verses and not a hint of delegation, not a reference to a pre-existing Son who might have helped with creation. Your assertion that it is no contradiction 'cos he gave power and direction to Jesus whom he used...... is your opinion, if it were so, it would have been stated in Genesis in the beginning, or do we propose that the good Lord forgot and simply instructed John and the Apostle Paul to remind us all ? I doubt that

Even if I concede your argument, which I do not, It still remains a huge leap of faith to conclusively attest provenance of a trinity.

Sarassin: @ Emusan, You say;

"No contradiction their only when you can recognize that Jesus is the Word of God.
"

This is nothing more than a play on the word, word if you can excuse my pun.
Are we to assume that every occasion the term word of God occurs in the Bible it is a reference to Jesus ? Please clarify

Instances;

1 kings 12:22 But this the word of God came unto Shemaiah
1 Chronicles 17:3 But that night the word of God came to Nathan
Joel 1:1 The word of the Lord that came to Joel son of Pethuel
Jeremiah 2:1 The word of the Lord came to me....

It goes on ad infinitio

Emusan:

My points are very clear in above only for you to digest them that left.

"The word of God came to me" this phrase should tell you that God is speaking to people in a clear audible voice. WHICH IS totally different from when God put HIS own WORD INTO ACTION like in creation time Isaiah 48:13, 45:12, and when He made the same WORD became FLESH John 1:14

Though some cases are in the Bible where Christ is being called the literal word of God but in a distinct ways I.e
1Peter 1:23 " AMP:You have been regenerated (born again), not from a mortal origin (seed, sperm), but from one that is immortal by the ever living and lasting Word of God.

ESV:since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God;

KJV:Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

NIV:For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

Here where the "word of God" appeared you can simply replace it with Jesus Christ.

Shalom!