Come to even think of it,is there any need to preserve any dialect?there is no threat of any dialect going extinct,IMO . People in the villages ensure that our dialects would live on.

However,if and when each man switches to his or her own distinct dialect,would we still be one? we still need that Igbo izugbe,no matter how anyone looks at it.

Bonny never had a bible translated into its lect. What you're thinking of, bigfrancis, is Union Igbo. Also, the failure of Union Igbo was more so due to controversy over orthography than to it being too "Owerri-like". CMS (the proponents of Union Igbo) did not want to accept the new orthography that was becoming popular at that time.

ifyalways: However,if and when each man switches to his or her own distinct dialect,would we still be one?we still need that Igbo izugbe,no matter how anyone looks at it.

True, Izugbe has its purpose.

ChinenyeN: Bonny never had a bible translated into its lect. What you're thinking of, bigfrancis, is Union Igbo. Also, the failure of Union Igbo was more so due to controversy over orthography than to it being too "Owerri-like". CMS (the proponents of Union Igbo) did not want to accept the new orthography that was becoming popular at that time.

Yes, Bonny did have a bible translated into its dialect. The earliest missionaries berthed at Bonny first, and from there moved into the Igbo hinterlands. Few years later, another station was established at Onitsha. The translation started initially by having a few bonny Igbo translations. The first Igbo translators to be used in churches by the white missionaries were from Bonny, who were known to use 'Ike m'(pronounced as in 'my buttocks') to refer to 'me' and 'ike gi'(your buttocks) to refer to 'you'. It was a funny aspect of the dialect and its still present among the riverine Igbo dialects in Rivers state today. Patience Jonathan, a native of Okrika, who's a fluent speaker of Igbo speaks 'ike m' and 'ike gi'. Chinua Achebe once wrote in one of his novels(I've forgotten which) about an Igbo translator from some distant town who would say 'my buttocks' and 'your buttocks' for 'me' and 'you' respectively.

The criticism of Union Igbo being too Owerri-like is in the material of which I dropped the link before in my last post. Union Igbo was more or less for Southern Igbo. It was written, printed and published at Egbu in Owerri, thus giving rise to the sentiments that it was too Owerri-like.

Its main criticism came from the Onitsha axis.



http://www.h-net.org/announce/show.cgi?ID=205796

I suggest that you download the PDF material here: http://pcwww.liv.ac.uk/~dvdb/CH_4.pdf

It will enlighten you very well on the history of Igbo language studies.

ChinenyeN: Bonny never had a bible translated into its lect. What you're thinking of, bigfrancis, is Union Igbo. Also, the failure of Union Igbo was more so due to controversy over orthography than to it being too "Owerri-like". CMS (the proponents of Union Igbo) did not want to accept the new orthography that was becoming popular at that time.



True, Izugbe has its purpose.

According to page 9 of this document, Bonny was one of the leading evangelical centers of the late 19th century and it had its own bible translation even before Onitsha. This is why when missionaries traveled to northern Igboland along with Bonny translators, they were ridiculed because they referred to themselves as "my buttocks".

http://web.ebscohost.com/ehost/pdfviewer/pdfviewer?sid=425fd52d-4e16-4195-81bc-784fd490a124%40sessionmgr112&vid=5&hid=108

kreami diva:

You just spoke like my grand ma...... lol.

"Guma m suru ele nnenne ya"
Mu na nde ochieocho n'anokari. O ma-bu ihe mere m ji asu ele wo lol.

ifyalways: Come to even think of it,is there any need to preserve any dialect?there is no threat of any dialect going extinct,IMO . People in the villages ensure that our dialects would live on.

I don't agree. Today's elders are the modern custodians of language and culture because when they were young they dwelt with their own parents and grew up experiencing their traditions. In today's Igboland most youths leave their villages and travel to cities, leaving the elderly behind. When it's time for the new generation of elders to assume its position, who will blame them if they don't know their dialects or traditions as deeply as their parents or grandparents did? How do you expect them to know their languages richly and deeply when for most of the year (except for major holiday's and the occasional weekend) they live in foreign towns?

The disturbing thing is, by the time my generation becomes elders (in 50 years or so), who knows how deteriorated things would be? Many of us currently speak Igbo "recklessly" and fail to pay as much attention to our culture as we should. How are we to be expected to be the custodians of a culture we never paid much attention to (This doesn't apply to everyone.)? What I do know is that the peoples that are striving now to preserve what is theirs are the ones that do not have to worry about these things.

Also,what about those places that are no longer villages, but are now urbanized? Take Aba for example. Aba is in Ngwaland, but Ngwa is not the common language of Aba; Port Harcourt is in Ikwereland, but its main languages are Pidgin and Central Igbo; Agbor is in Ikaland, but an increasing and alarming number of Ika youths are "losing their fluency" in Ika because it has not been organized and published as an academic topic and because of the increasing popularity of Pidgin and central Igbo.

These are all reasons why dialects should be preserved.

odumchi:

I don't agree. Today's elders are the modern custodians of language and culture because when they were young they dwelt with their own parents and grew up experiencing their traditions. In today's Igboland most youths leave their villages and travel to cities, leaving the elderly behind. When it's time for the new generation of elders to assume its position, who will blame them if they don't know their dialects or traditions as deeply as their parents or grandparents did? How do you expect them to know their languages richly and deeply when for most of the year (except for major holiday's and the occasional weekend) they live in foreign towns?

The disturbing thing is, by the time my generation becomes elders (in 50 years or so), who knows how deteriorated things would be? Many of us currently speak Igbo "recklessly" and fail to pay as much attention to our culture as we should. How are we to be expected to be the custodians of a culture we never paid much attention to (This doesn't apply to everyone.)? What I do know is that the peoples that are striving now to preserve what is theirs are the ones that do not have to worry about these things.

Also,what about those places that are no longer villages, but are now urbanized? Take Aba for example. Aba is in Ngwaland, but Ngwa is not the common language of Aba; Port Harcourt is in Ikwereland, but its main languages are Pidgin and Central Igbo; Agbor is in Ikaland, but an increasing and alarming number of Ika youths are "losing their fluency" in Ika because it has not been organized and published as an academic topic and because of the increasing popularity of Pidgin and central Igbo.

These are all reasons why dialects should be preserved.

The parts of Igboland that have accepted to be one and have suffered same hatred, discrimination and marginalization from other Nigerians should lay less emphasis on dialects and leave Ikwerre, Ika and whoever likes to continue over-emphasizing on their dialect. I'm talking about Southeast, Oshimili/Aniocha in Delta and Oyigbo in Rivers.

The reason why some people erroneously think Onitsha Igbo was popular in the past was because of Catholic influence. With the sudden reduction of Catholic population ratio in the late 90s came the reduction of Onitsha Igbo and adoption of central Igbo with correct pronunciation of "r" in most modern Churches.

Bigfrancis, I have long since had the full text of Dimitri's work. I very much enjoy it, and have read it several times. Anyway, yes, Bible translations had been ongoing in Bonny, but as far as having the Bible as an actual complete book/text, Bonny lect did not see that. At the very least, it was not the first to get it. It was rather the handwork of CMS headquartered in Onitsha, with a secondary station in Egbu. You might want to try rereading Dimitri's work over, particularly the top paragraph of page 114, in that same chapter 4 you cited.

bigfrancis21:

@Bold...exactly! Central Igbo lacks the flavour, life and freshness of many dialects like Anambra, Owerri, Nkanu, etc. Igbo Izugbe is just there. Its status is mostly as a written language, and not spoken. Little wonder, Anambra/Enugu township Igbo is still preferred and used by movie actors and producers in Igbo language movies because everybody just loves it. The way it sounds, the rhythm, the flow etc. I get a thousand comments everyday each time I speak it here in Owerri. Some people walk up to me saying they want to learn Anambra or that I tell them a story in Anambra let them hear that its very pleasing to their ears. And I oblige them.

Eziokwu. Anambra has the best dialect. I always converse in Igbo with ma Anambra chick just becuse of the flavour and smoothness of her dialect.

ChinenyeN: Bigfrancis, I have long since had the full text of Dimitri's work. I very much enjoy it, and have read it several times. Anyway, yes, Bible translations had been ongoing in Bonny, but as far as having the Bible as an actual complete book/text, Bonny lect did not see that. At the very least, it was not the first to get it. It was rather the handwork of CMS headquartered in Onitsha, with a secondary station in Egbu. You might want to try rereading Dimitri's work over, particularly the top paragraph of page 114, in that same chapter 4 you cited.

Bonny Igbo did have its own bible translation. Its written in that Dimitri's book. I've turned off my system and its late here. I'll give you the exact page and line its in tomorrow.

Em_vin: Eziokwu. Anambra has the best dialect. I always converse in Igbo with ma Anambra chick just becuse of the flavour and smoothness of her dialect.

. I get the same Anambra Igbo speaking request everyday here in Owerri. Few weeks ago I was conversing with my distant cousin on my father's side(the same family and village), this was happening outside, and there were two men who were conversing in their shop. My voice was kinda loud so they could hear me. I noticed that about a minute or so into my conversation, these two men suspended their conversation, stood up and went closer to the door side where they could hear me more properly!

They just stood there in silence listening to me until my 5-minute call was over.

You know what, let's just start from the beginning so we can be on the same page as to what we are discussing.

Below is the statement you made that prompted my post.

bigfrancis21: Don't forget that the first Igbo bible was done in Bonny Igbo. The early missionaries first discovered Bonny before Onitsha.

Now, here is my reply/statement, as short and concise as possible: Bonny had Bible translations, yes, but it did not produce the first actual Igbo Bible. That is the only point I am making here, and since you want to cite Dimitri, I suggest you read thoroughly through chapter 4, as his work supports my response to your post.

ChinenyeN: You know what, let's just start from the beginning so we can be on the same page as to what we are discussing.

Below is the statement you made that prompted my post.



Now, here is my reply/statement, as short and concise as possible: Bonny had Bible translations, yes, but it did not produce the first actual Igbo Bible. That is the only point I am making here, and since you want to cite Dimitri, I suggest you read thoroughly through chapter 4, as his work supports my response to your post.

@Bold...That was never your original response. You're only paraphrasing. This was your actual response:

ChinenyeN: Bonny never had a bible translated into its lect. What you're thinking of, bigfrancis, is Union Igbo. Also, the failure of Union Igbo was more so due to controversy over orthography than to it being too "Owerri-like". CMS (the proponents of Union Igbo) did not want to accept the new orthography that was becoming popular at that time.

Dimitri's work opposes that bolded statement of yours. I was only bringing to your attention that there was a Bonny Igbo bible, and Odumchi's source confirms that this was before the Onicha bible was made. Many sources seem to agree with this. You're the only one countering this fact.

In hindsight I see my mistake. I wasn't explicit enough. In that case, let me revise my statement to explicitly state what I want to say.

Bonny had Bible translations, yes (mostly New Testament), but it did not produce the first Igbo Bible, as you claimed. CMS Onitsha did. Also, though not explicitly noted anywhere, it is my belief that Bonny likely never even produced a complete Igbo Bible. Or if it did, it was entirely overlooked as Onitsha quickly gained ground as literary Igbo.

ChinenyeN: Bigfrancis, I have long since had the full text of Dimitri's work. I very much enjoy it, and have read it several times. Anyway, yes, Bible translations had been ongoing in Bonny, but as far as having the Bible as an actual complete book/text, Bonny lect did not see that. At the very least, it was not the first to get it. It was rather the handwork of CMS headquartered in Onitsha, with a secondary station in Egbu. You might want to try rereading Dimitri's work over, particularly the top paragraph of page 114, in that same chapter 4 you cited.

What dialect are they speaking in this song:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iVCjP-iM2M

Basically, Standard Igbo (Igbo Izugbe)....

Radoillo: Basically, Standard Igbo (Igbo Izugbe)....

Ok thank you

ChinenyeN: In hindsight I see my mistake. I wasn't explicit enough. In that case, let me revise my statement to explicitly state what I want to say.

Bonny had Bible translations, yes (mostly New Testament), but it did not produce the first Igbo Bible, as you claimed. CMS Onitsha did. Also, though not explicitly noted anywhere, it is my belief that Bonny likely never even produced a complete Igbo Bible. Or if it did, it was entirely overlooked as Onitsha quickly gained ground as literary Igbo.

You're only paraphrasing. At least I got you to accept that Bonny Igbo had a bible. Whether it was a New testament-only Bonny Igbo bible, it was still a bible. There are new testament-only bibles being used today and yet referred to as 'bible'. The popular one being the small portable Gideon's version bible which we all know. Can you say it isn't a bible because it has only the new testament?

Page 114 of Dimitri's book says, the first translation of the entire bible was done in Onitsha dialect. The author was quite clear in his assertion. Bonny Igbo new testament translation had come before then. The missionaries first berthed at Bonny before they discovered Onitsha later. New testament translation in Bonny Igbo may seem to have been deemed more important and carried out first because the new testament was and still remains the main and focal point of Christianity's gospel. Old testament translation can come later.

Basically, Bonny Igbo had the first Igbo bible (probably only new testament), before the Onitsha bible. However, the first complete(old and new testament) bible was done in Onitsha dialect. Both statements are two different things. Hence, it would be wrong to say Bonny Igbo never had any bible or that they didn't have the first Igbo bible, because the last time I checked the small Gideons New Testament-only pocket bible was called a bible.

You haven't actually gotten me to accept anything. Reading through, you can see that nothing about my statement has changed. I simply reiterared my point, only in different words and more explicitly. But I think I see what the problem may be here. I do not see reason for why Bonny should be noted as having produced the Bible (let alone the first, official Igbo Bible) simply because it had ongoing New Testament translations. However, you do. That's simply what this unnecessary back and forth is.

ChinenyeN: You haven't actually gotten me to accept anything. Reading through, you can see that nothing about my statement has changed. I simply reiterared my point, only in different words and more explicitly. But I think I see what the problem may be here. I do not consider Bonny as having produced the Bible, simply because it had ongoing New Testament translations. However, you do.

Wrong. Initially you said Bonny Igbo never had a bible, then you changed it to that it had a new testament bible but not a full bible. And you're saying nothing about your statement changed?

So, the Gideons pocket bible which is a new testament-only bible isn't a bible to you?

That you admit or don't admit that you misjudged is left to you. At least I'm happy that I got you to realize that Bonny Igbo did have its bible translation. I think I made my point initially and it has still remained so. No rewriting, no paraphrasing.

Finally, I don't see why you're bent on dragging this argument. Its totally needless.

But how can anyone expect people who live in cities like Aba or Enugu to maintain the dialects of these places. These cities are cosmopolitan and are filled with Igbos from every length and breadth and Central Igbo tends to take pre-eminence in such places. What we should be striving for, is to maintain our villages and small towns because those are the places where our dialects can be preserved.

The hard truth is that local dialects will continue to lose ground to the spoken standards that are emerging in the major cities of the east. That will happen whether or not we like it. The best that can be done is for scholars to properly document the dialects (on paper, electronically) before their eventual demise...

One question, and I really respect Igbo people, I believe they are hard-working and very intelligent. However, I believe the preservation begins with you ladies and gentlemen.

Why is this thread in English?

Radoillo: The hard truth is that local dialects will continue to lose ground to the spoken standards that are emerging in the major cities of the east. That will happen whether or not we like it. The best that can be done is for scholars to properly document the dialects (on paper, electronically) before their eventual demise...

The price we have to pay for Igbo unity.

Fulaman198: One question, and I really respect Igbo people, I believe they are hard-working and very intelligent. However, I believe the preservation begins with you ladies and gentlemen.

Why is this thread in English?

We don't want to leave anyone out. Not everybody can write in Igbo.

Fulaman198: One question, and I really respect Igbo people, I believe they are hard-working and very intelligent. However, I believe the preservation begins with you ladies and gentlemen.

Why is this thread in English?

Well, for one thing, the thread is about dialects... and i'm pretty sure I'll be lost if Odumchi and Chinenye start typing Aro and Ngwa dialects respectively.

Afam4eva: But how can anyone expect people who live in cities like Aba or Enugu to maintain the dialects of these places. These cities are cosmopolitan and are filled with Igbos from every length and breadth and Central Igbo tends to take pre-eminence in such places. What we should be striving for, is to maintain our villages and small towns because those are the places where our dialects can be preserved.

Radoillo: The hard truth is that local dialects will continue to lose ground to the spoken standards that are emerging in the major cities of the east. That will happen whether or not we like it. The best that can be done is for scholars to properly document the dialects (on paper, electronically) before their eventual demise...

I'm totally in support of dialect preservation. It showcases the beauty and diversity of the Igbo language. A historian's count of Igbo dialects was over 800. I don't remember the man's name.

Modern Igbo-language musicians use more of central Igbo in their songs. The ilk of Osadebe, Morocco, and other great musicians sang purely in their native dialects. But the trend currently has changed. Sonny Bobo's Owerri songs employs substantial central Igbo, not exclusively Owerri. It is quite rare to find a purely Owerri native song. Flavour n'Abania from Anambra combines both Anambra + central Igbo. And so on. The modern trend nowadays has changed. And I fear that in some years' time, it will be hard to find musicians singing purely in their native dialects.

Radoillo:

Well, for one thing, the thread is about dialects... and i'm pretty sure I'll be lost if Odumchi and Chinenye start typing Aro and Ngwa dialects respectively.

. I'm still yet to decipher Odumchi's profile signature in Arochukwu.

I could easily decipher the two dialects when spoken, but their written form is something else.

bigfrancis21:



I'm totally in support of dialect preservation. It showcases the beauty and diversity of the Igbo language. A historian's count of Igbo dialects was over 800. I don't remember the man's name.

Modern Igbo-language musicians use more of central Igbo in their songs. The ilk of Osadebe, Morocco, and other great musicians sang purely in their native dialects. But the trend currently has changed. Sonny Bobo's Owerri songs employs substantial central Igbo, not exclusively Owerri. It is quite rare to find a purely Owerri native song. Flavour n'Abania from Anambra combines both Anambra + central Igbo. And so on. The modern trend nowadays has changed. And I fear that in some years' time, it will be hard to find musicians singing purely in their native dialects.

No matter how we look at it, languages and dialects will keep dissapearing because of globalization. I think our best bet is to document these dialects because we can't stop people from speaking Igbo Izugbe and as development spreads and people become intertwined like we're experiencing at the moment, dialects will keep shrinking and being swallowed or remixed to sound more central.

Fulaman198: One question, and I really respect Igbo people, I believe they are hard-working and very intelligent. However, I believe the preservation begins with you ladies and gentlemen.

Why is this thread in English?

You're right. The thread should have been in Igbo instead but not everyone writes Igbo well. And like Afam said, we don't want anyone to be left out.

O dikwa ka anyi a ya-ebido subakwa Igbo ebe anunwa. Nwa awka, kedu ife I lo?

Afam4eva:
No matter how we look at it, languages and dialects will keep dissapearing because of globalization. I think our best bet is to document these dialects because we can't stop people from speaking Igbo Izugbe and as development spreads and people become intertwined like we're experiencing at the moment, dialects will keep shrinking and being swallowed or remixed to sound more central.

I don't think Igbo dialects or any Igbo dialect for that matter will disappear. They will still remain. Rather, we can expect a dialect dilution, whereby virtually all Igbo dialects will be diluted with central Igbo in one form or the other. But a total disappearance will be unlikely, I think.

bigfrancis21:

. I'm still yet to decipher Odumchi's profile signature in Arochukwu.

I think I might have an idea what it says. Chinenye's own though....I'm totally clueless.

It's funny how sometimes, u understand a dialect better in written form than in spoken form. Then at other times, u understand it better in spoken form than in written form.

I once saw a book with Ezza sentences and their English translations, and i was like, "That's easy!" Until I actually met someone who spoke it!

bigfrancis21:

I don't think Igbo dialects or any Igbo dialect for that matter will disappear. They will still remain. Rather, we can expect a dialect dilution, whereby virtually all Igbo dialects will be diluted with central Igbo in one form or the other. But a total disappearance will be unlikely, I think.

An Ogbono soup cooked without an Ogbono cannot be called an Ogbono soup. If more than 50% of a dialect is gone then it seizes to be that dialect. I also infered that the dialects will be swallowed living just a handful of words from the dialect. But hoping that the dialects remain the way it is presently is wishful thinking.