www.punchng.com/politics/hotseat/pharmacists-nurses-others-should-stop-competing-with-doctors-nma-president/

Excerpts here:

The President, Nigerian Medical Association, Dr.
Osahon Enabulele, in this interview with GBENRO
ADEOYE, insists that physicians are best suited to
head teaching hospitals
Is it not biased to say only doctors should head
hospitals when health care delivery is
encompassing?
In any human system, even in heaven and hell, there is order. The phenomenon playing out in the. public health care sector amounts to an unnecessary equality beauty contest and unholy quest for the doctor’s leadership authority. This is quite unfortunate and uncalled for.
Every profession and system has a ‘soul’ and a
custodian of the core values. That should be someone
that has a broad-based general knowledge of the
intricate workings of that system or sector. In the
health care sector, this professional is
unquestionably the medical doctor.
People have been referring to some settings outside
Nigeria where the so-called professional managers
are heading hospitals. May I point out here that
recent evidence has proved that physician-led
hospitals perform better in terms of positive patient
outcomes which are the primary concern of the
health care sector. The argument as to who is best
suited to head the hospitals/health establishments
has essentially been put to rest by results of
scientific studies, the latest being that by a world
renowned researcher Amanda Goodall in the USA,
who established that hospitals run by doctors were
doing far better than those run by the administrators
and any other groups of persons. She went further to
posit that the main reason for this is that patient care
is at the centre of doctors’ training and practice and
are therefore in a better position to take certain
decisions which are critical for patient’s survival.

As a doctor who signed the Hippocratic Oath,
don’t you think that you’ve broken the oath
with unhealthy relationship between doctors
and other health care professionals which does
not help the health system?
I am quite sure that Hippocrates would be very
uncomfortable in his grave or wherever he is, seeing what is happening in Nigeria today. Imagine a situation where one of his assistants would tell him to step aside for them to take over headship of the health team. That would be outright sacrilege. This is the more reason we are complaining loudly against the emerging phenomenon of unhealthy rivalry and unholy equality beauty contest in the health sector. Doctors are leaders who are always ready to accommodate the allied health professionals as members of the health team which he/she leads. After all, the doctor essentially created them in the first place when he/she transited from his solo hospital practice (where he rendered all the clinical and ancillary healthcare services to his/her patient) to hospital practice after he developed most of the support services and allied health professions and middle-level health workforce.

The clamour for the reduction of the period of
medical training had recently grown, are you in
support of it?
It has been proved that the Minister of Health, Prof.
Onyebuchi Chukwu, to whom this statement was
credited, was actually misrepresented in that news
report. He was actually condemning the practices by some professional groups who are unscrupulously elongating their years of undergraduate training as a means to equate themselves with the doctors. We realise the gross deficiency in health manpower needs of the country but reduction of standard in any manner would be inimical to patient care. It would certainly not help to mitigate the challenge of health human resource. As an association, we are convinced the way to go is to expand the available facilities in the existing medical schools with recruitment of the
appropriate and adequate number of medical
trainers; We also advise that greater efforts should
be made to encourage the establishment of medical
schools but without compromising standards in any
way. Again, the government and the training institutions should introduce schemes to guarantee the recruitment and retention of quality medical trainers and medical consultants/specialists to deliver the right knowledge and quality training.

Rigmarolingggg,
Nigerians are no longer gullible.
The heading should be ''why are doctors suppressing other health professionals to stay at the top''
So true....i forgot
Florence Nightingale was a doctor

Joanna Sedley: Rigmarolingggg,
Nigerians are no longer gullible.
The heading should be ''why are doctors suppressing other health professionals to stay at the top''
So true....i forgot
Florence Nightingale was a doctor

Thank God you know. Doctors started the other speciaties to ease their job. Now those specialty he started wants to overthrow him. Does that sound nice madam?

dr_joshua2000:

Thank God you know. Doctors started the other speciaties to ease their job. Now those specialty he started wants to overthrow him. Does that sound nice madam?

Now I know where the problem is coming from. So our naija Docs are scared of being overthrown? eyaaa, I now get the gist.

dr_joshua2000:

Thank God you know. Doctors started the other speciaties to ease their job. Now those specialty he started wants to overthrow him. Does that sound nice madam?

your lack of knowledge is really appalling, doc. Who is Florence Nightingale? Try to find out when a post is being sarcastic.....jeez. That your chairman is making you doctors a laughing stock.

[quote author=Joanna Sedley] your lack of knowledge is really appalling, doc. Who is Florence Nightingale? Try to find out when a post is being sarcastic.....jeez. That your chairman is making you doctors a laughing stock.[/quote

Our NMA chairman remains the best ever!

doctor i think,you guys tink ur re God just because of the ignorance we have in nigeria.

Taking doctor as the head....
The nurses own the ward....

You only prescribe nd go away not knowing wat happens to ur patient next...

Nigerians shuld begin to be greatful for the good nurses they becos as i speak now most of them re living the country to places were their services re needed and would be appreciated...

In the usa,uk,nurses head hospital.a nurse is even a minister of health jamica nd some other countrie...


Because the ignorance of nigerians the percieve u guys as lords.....
When in the usa,uk the nurses are the main lords....

Very soon ur positions will be taken over....

So abeg NMA chairman park well nd have some professionalism in you....

What have ur minister of health the prof achieved since he has been there.....



It should be replaced by some else,a nurse,a pharmcist....

Stop all this supority thing its nt going to take you guys anywere....

A clear counscience does nt fear....

dr_joshua2000:

Thank God you know. Doctors started the other speciaties to ease their job. Now those specialty he started wants to overthrow him. Does that sound nice madam?

I thought we were done with this on the other thread? Don't go misinforming the public. Which profession did doctors start?

adeola_drg:

I thought we were done with this on the other thread? Don't go misinforming the public. Which profession did doctors start?

My statement remains valid. How's work or studies going bro?

And here i am again,saying it loud and clear! A change has come into the health sector.Doctors shld b comfortable wif the fact that everybody respects them,but people are no longer fools.We all shld learn to respect other health workers.Some of u are totally arrogant,its quite disheartening.Its clear that doctors are panicking b'cos others refuse to regard them as gods of the health sector.I hope the younger docs grow their own minds and learn that other health workers are vital.But if they dn't,we'll remain stagnant.

GentleMimi: And here i am again,saying it loud and clear! A change has come into the health sector.Doctors shld b comfortable wif the fact that everybody respects them,but people are no longer fools.We all shld learn to respect other health workers.Some of u are totally arrogant,its quite disheartening.Its clear that doctors are panicking b'cos others refuse to regard them as gods of the health sector.I hope the younger docs grow their own minds and learn that other health workers are vital.But if they dn't,we'll remain stagnant.

no doctor would say other health workers are not vital. what most doctors are saying is that is wrong for other health workers to claim to be physcians. no doctor would try to be other health workers.
i do not feel like commenting on this cos truth cannot be hidden . i just wish govt to unbundle health sector like phcn and make basic health insurance available to all.
some of this fight happen in govt hospital. in private sector it is different ball game. my fear now is most young doctors are radical and will not be looking just medical elders.
i dey watch.

thepathologist:

no doctor would say other health workers are not vital. what most doctors are saying is that is wrong for other health workers to claim to be physcians. no doctor would try to be other health workers.
i do not feel like commenting on this cos truth cannot be hidden . i just wish govt to unbundle health sector like phcn and make basic health insurance available to all.
some of this fight happen in govt hospital. in private sector it is different ball game. my fear now is most young doctors are radical and will not be looking just medical elders.
i dey watch.

Please do not say that.I've read comments by doctors saying they can carry out every test by the medical scientist,and dispense drugs like the pharmacist.Imagine such stupid comment.Other health workers are NOT trying to take over the job of the doctors (its impossible to do so),it is the doctors who want to take over other people's jobs an relegate them to the back seat!
The bone of contention here is that doctors feel certain positions in the health sector(eg minsterial,CMAC etc) shld be allocated to docs only.Others argue that chance shld be given to them to prove that they are capable.Is it too much to ask??
Docs hv tasted power and are reluctant to let go of it.They are well secured in their profession so they hv no reason to be scared of other health workers.

Doctors should i think that would be appropriate but respect should be given to the Para medics

GentleMimi:
Please do not say that.I've read comments by doctors saying they can carry out every test by the medical scientist,and dispense drugs like the pharmacist.Imagine such stupid comment.Other health workers are NOT trying to take over the job of the doctors (its impossible to do so),it is the doctors who want to take over other people's jobs an relegate them to the back seat!
The bone of contention here is that doctors feel certain positions in the health sector(eg minsterial,CMAC etc) shld be allocated to docs only.Others argue that chance shld be given to them to prove that they are capable.Is it too much to ask??
Docs hv tasted power and are reluctant to let go of it.They are well secured in their profession so they hv no reason to be scared of other health workers.

can u pls tell me history of medical laboratories? can u tell me how many medical laboratory procedured are discovered. let me tell u categorically that doctors pioneer practice of medical laboratory. but due to advance in medical technologies profession of med lab science emerges. that is usa and in many part of the words pathologists are director of laboratories. i ve link to prove my point.

www.cap-acp.org/medical_director_lab_responsibilities_role.cfm

qualification of director of laboratories

www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/42/493.1405

www.indeed.com/forum/job/medical-technologist/CLIA-REQUIREMENTS-LABORATORY-DIRECTOR/t301347

thepathologist: qualification of director of laboratories

www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/42/493.1405

www.indeed.com/forum/job/medical-technologist/CLIA-REQUIREMENTS-LABORATORY-DIRECTOR/t301347

Brother that's how its is abroad. Laboratory director designation is to the pathologist. Its just different here. The sad thing is that even when we know we are wrong, we just keep fighting for greed, pride of corruption sake. God save us. Blessings

dr_joshua2000:

Brother that's how its is abroad. Laboratory director designation is to the pathologist. Its just different here. The sad thing is that even when we know we are wrong, we just keep fighting for greed, pride of corruption sake. God save us. Blessings

Yeah,keep consoling urselves.The judge who ruled the case in favour of the scientist definitely knows abt that.The koko is that the case was presented at the court of law and judgement has been passed.Deal wif it,u and ur NMA president,and stop making a nuisance of urselves!

GentleMimi:
Yeah,keep consoling urselves.The judge who ruled the case in favour of the scientist definitely knows abt that.The koko is that the case was presented at the court of law and judgement has been passed.Deal wif it,u and ur NMA president,and stop making a nuisance of urselves!

i think u have difficult in interpreting the judgement. the issue is about department of med lab science. note that pathologists have been heading pathology departments viz haematology, chemical pathology,microbiology,immunology and morbid anatomy many years before advent of med lab science in nigeria. what court is saying now is for creation of dept of med lab science so that you guys will have sense of belonging. my take is that u cannot arrogate lab to urself. if arrogance of med lab sc continue what will happen is duplication of lab services. and who will pay? govt. because pathologists are licenced to run full laboratories while clinicians including nurses are licenced run side labs. that is fact. get it to ur head.

thepathologist:

i think u have difficult in interpreting the judgement. the issue is about department of med lab science. note that pathologists have been heading pathology departments viz haematology, chemical pathology,microbiology,immunology and morbid anatomy many years before advent of med lab science in nigeria. what court is saying now is for creation of dept of med lab science so that you guys will have sense of belonging. my take is that u cannot arrogate lab to urself. if arrogance of med lab sc continue what will happen is duplication of lab services. and who will pay? govt. because pathologists are licenced to run full laboratories while clinicians including nurses are licenced run side labs. that is fact. get it to ur head.

Fine,let it get duplicated! les ipsa loquitos...get it to ''ur head'' that the facts will speak for itself.Watch it unfold.Imagine arrogant species calling scientists ''arrogant'',just b'cos they stood their ground?

GentleMimi:
Fine,let it get duplicated! les ipsa loquitos...get it to ''ur head'' that the facts will speak for itself.Watch it unfold.Imagine arrogant species calling scientists ''arrogant'',just b'cos they stood their ground?

tell me now. do pathologists direct medical laboratories in other countries like usa,uk,india,malaysia,south africa etc? tell me the answer with reference . then i will rest my case.

^^^^^My friend stop making false claims, where in the links you provided did the requirements (1 - 6) categorically state that the position was the exclusive preserve of pathologists alone and no other professionals were eligible?

You need to digest what you quote before rushing to argue in ignorance - and I want to know how many American laws and standards are applicable to Nigeria?

For the sake of argument, assuming that were true, are you suggesting that Nigeria as an independent state must blindly follow the Americans without recourse to its own peculiarities and limitations?

Even the Americans have come to realize the advantage of elevating the the Clinical Laboratory Scientist (their equivalent of MLS) to high echelons of other healthcare providers by introducing the Doctorate of Clinical Lab Sciences as a cheaper and better alternative to the Clinical Physicians (Pathologist) - BTW, the American CLS are also having the same problems MLS in Nigeria are having with pathologists (you will observe from the comments following the article); fortunately their Nigerian counterparts have already succeeded in being well ahead of them - though they too are on course to take over from their oppressors.

Pls answer this question honestly, why should a pathologist with limited training and experience in laboratory science compared to the scientist who had exclusively and entirely been trained for a longer time in the laboratory, be more suitable to head the laboratory?

Me_Aboki: ^^^^^My friend stop making false claims, where in the links you provided did the requirements (1 - 6) categorically state that the position was the exclusive preserve of pathologists alone and no other professionals were eligible?

You need to digest what you quote before rushing to argue in ignorance. How many American laws and standards are applicable to Nigeria?

For the sake of argument, assuming that were true, are you suggesting that Nigeria as an independent state must blindly follow the Americans without recourse to its own peculiarities and limitations?

Even the Americans have come to realize that the advantage of elevating the the Clinical Laboratory Scientist (their equivalent of MLS) to high echelons of other healthcare providers by introducing the Doctorate of Clinical Lab Sciences as a cheaper and better alternative to the Clinical Physicians (Pathologist) - BTW, the American CLS are also having the same problems MLS in Nigeria are having with pathologists (you will observe from the comments following the article); fortunately their Nigerian counterparts have already succeeded in being well ahead of them - though they too are on course to take over.

Pls answer this question honestly, why should a pathologist with limited training and experience in laboratory science compared to the scientist who has been exclusively and entirely in the laboratory, be more suitable to head the laboratory?

I rest my case.Thank u my brother.

who are pathologists?
www.certificationmatters.org/abms-member-boards/pathology.aspx

Me_Aboki: ^^^^^My friend stop making false claims, where in the links you provided did the requirements (1 - 6) categorically state that the position was the exclusive preserve of pathologists alone and no other professionals were eligible?

You need to digest what you quote before rushing to argue in ignorance - and I want to know how many American laws and standards are applicable to Nigeria?

For the sake of argument, assuming that were true, are you suggesting that Nigeria as an independent state must blindly follow the Americans without recourse to its own peculiarities and limitations?

Even the Americans have come to realize the advantage of elevating the the Clinical Laboratory Scientist (their equivalent of MLS) to high echelons of other healthcare providers by introducing the Doctorate of Clinical Lab Sciences as a cheaper and better alternative to the Clinical Physicians (Pathologist) - BTW, the American CLS are also having the same problems MLS in Nigeria are having with pathologists (you will observe from the comments following the article); fortunately their Nigerian counterparts have already succeeded in being well ahead of them - though they too are on course to take over from their oppressors.

Pls answer this question honestly, why should a pathologist with limited training and experience in laboratory science compared to the scientist who has been exclusively and entirely trained in the laboratory, be more suitable to head the laboratory?

nigeria does not invent pathology or med lab science. if pathologists could direct medical labs in usa why should nigeria be different? In usa pathologists and doctoral scientists are allowed under clia to direct laboratories. college of america parhologists is world leader in laboratory certification and accreditation. u can check it urself. ask google.

^^^^ I want to it put to you that the pathologist is less equipped to head the laboratory because he is hardly involved in the laboratory process; how can a food taster not involved in cooking the food head the kitchen over and above the chef?

FYI, Nigeria has adopted ISO 15189, its an international standard for laboratory management, Google its requirement and tell me how pathologists are knowledgeable and trained on it to lead and deliver its objectives?

Pathologists add only about 6mnths - 1yr post grad diploma training on laboratory and start making shakara as if they know the lab from top to bottom.

Me_Aboki: ^^^^^My friend stop making false claims, where in the links you provided did the requirements (1 - 6) categorically state that the position was the exclusive preserve of pathologists alone and no other professionals were eligible?

You need to digest what you quote before rushing to argue in ignorance - and I want to know how many American laws and standards are applicable to Nigeria?

For the sake of argument, assuming that were true, are you suggesting that Nigeria as an independent state must blindly follow the Americans without recourse to its own peculiarities and limitations?

Even the Americans have come to realize the advantage of elevating the the Clinical Laboratory Scientist (their equivalent of MLS) to high echelons of other healthcare providers by introducing the Doctorate of Clinical Lab Sciences as a cheaper and better alternative to the Clinical Physicians (Pathologist) - BTW, the American CLS are also having the same problems MLS in Nigeria are having with pathologists (you will observe from the comments following the article); fortunately their Nigerian counterparts have already succeeded in being well ahead of them - though they too are on course to take over from their oppressors.

Pls answer this question honestly, why should a pathologist with limited training and experience in laboratory science compared to the scientist who had exclusively and entirely been trained for a longer time in the laboratory, be more suitable to head the laboratory?

I thought i was the only one that saw that , the guy provided a link and thought we are all lazy forumites who won't bother checking. On that link there are 3 routes to becoming a Laboratory Director in the U.S. One of them is being a Doctorate in Clinical (Medical) Laboratory Science, but he was silent on that. The same D.MLS programme they've been fighting to ensure it doesn't take off in Nigeria. UBTH started Pharm.D the physicians fought it to a standstill, because they were threatened to share the acronym "Dr" and other "benefits" with other professionals...funny lots.

Well Nigerians are getting enlightened, just a matter of time and the health system will be totally restructured for the benefit of the most important person...the Patient. We are watching, by the time the scales fall off their eyes, only the ones with a passion for the patients will remain and serve, the ones that paid their way through school with daddy's money with the sole purpose of earning fat salaries will have to go into fish-farming or probably become musicians and nollywood actors....lol.... Yes...i've seen many do that.

BTW, Yours truly is a Medical Laboratory Scientist.

dp

^^^^ Don't mind him, they only interpret results to their colleagues and evidently doing a bad job at it while attracting expensive salaries; hence the American search for cheaper and more effective alternative in the form of DCLS.

Me_Aboki: ^^^^ I want to it put to you that the pathologist is less equipped to head the laboratory because he is hardly involved in the laboratory process; how can a food taster not involved in cooking the food head the kitchen over and above the chef?

FYI, Nigeria has adopted ISO 15189, its an international standard for laboratory management, Google its requirement and tell me how pathologists are knowledgeable and trained on it to lead and deliver its objectives?

Pathologists add only about 6mnths - 1yr post grad diploma training on laboratory and start making shakara as if they know the lab from top to bottom.

Please tell me that you're joking

naijaking1:

Please tell me that you're joking

''He is joking'' .
Will u now contemplate suicide??
Abegi! I replied u on the other thread.Read it,digest it,meditate on it,and be set free frm bondage of unreality. Lol!

^^^ Abeg pass him rat poison so that he can do the needful

@ naijaking1:
No I am not joking, therefore pls make your point, contradict what I said before going ahead to do the needful.

Me_Aboki: ^^^ Abeg pass him rat poison so that he can do the needful

@ naijaking1:
No I am not joking, therefore pls make your point, contradict what I said before going ahead to do the needful.

Ignorance is bliss.
And for the record, I was part of the amlss that started the scientist vs technologist nonsense in 80s. I look back at the Grand ignorance someone sold young and susceptible minds.
If you call yourself a scientist for collecting blood, centrifuging it, placing the serum inside multichannel analyzers day in day out, what do you call the person who designed and developed the test protocol?
Oh I forgot that you said that they are not properly trained.
Looking back now again, I blame the early uk trained pathologist for being too courteous and respectful. Here in US techs who think they have what it takes are busy proving themselves everyday. Clinical conferences, state audits, blind samples every month, qc, are enough to keep him focused on his area of expertise, he has no time to get bored, lie to newer students and d repeat lies so many fimes that he now believes it be true.