http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,383441,00.html

the israeli govt today exchanged 5 prisoners for the remains of their two dead soldiers. hmmn. i dont get it. were these not the soldiers who were captured and israel went into war which led to massive loss of lives and property until peace was agreed upon(after a stalemate) ? now they are realeasing 5 prisoners for the bodies of the soldiers.

i feel they should have negotiated this long b4 the soldiers were killed(if they were captured alive) or better still, this should have been negotiated b4 going into war. this is yet another example of a preventible conflict. israel could be said to be at a disadvantage here. the could not get their soldiers alive, they could not crush hezbollah and more importantly, they have psychological defeat. the hezbollah has their 5 prisoners, and some respect from the people and from. . . . hmmmn . . israel.

war should never be a first option. restraint is ever more beneficial. dont rush simply b/c you can win. and may i add. . . . the resignation of ehud olmert and his war cabinet.

there are still some castigating Israel for not releasing the remaining condemned killers and terrorists in exchange for a few more arms and legs.

makes no sense to me . . .

toshmann:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,383441,00.html

the israeli govt today exchanged 5 prisoners for the remains of their two dead soldiers. hmmn. i don't get it. were these not the soldiers who were captured and israel went into war which led to massive loss of lives and property until peace was agreed upon(after a stalemate) ? now they are realeasing 5 prisoners for the bodies of the soldiers.

i feel they should have negotiated this long before the soldiers were killed(if they were captured alive) or better still, this should have been negotiated before going into war. this is yet another example of a preventible conflict. israel could be said to be at a disadvantage here. the could not get their soldiers alive, they could not crush hezbollah and more importantly, they have psychological defeat. the hezbollah has their 5 prisoners, and some respect from the people and from. . . . hmmmn . . israel.

war should never be a first option. restraint is ever more beneficial. don't rush simply b/c you can win. and may i add. . . . the resignation of ehud olmert and his war cabinet.

@toshmann,

Thank you for bringing common sense and crisp reasoning to this issue. Israel has for long had a belligerent foreign policy that is now showing its age. Rushing to war without exploring diplomatic options is foolhardy. The tired, pedestrian and false phrase "we don't negotiate with terrorists" only disguises a total lack of diplomatic finesse. Trying to copy the toddler-driven US foreign policy that assumes "talking with the enemy is doing the enemy a favor" is, to say the least, ludicrous!

Hopefully, saner minds will rise to lead Israelis out of the diplomatic cul-de-sac they find themselves in today. Today's generation of Israeli leaders are just plain inept.

@poster
dont blame just israel for not being used to dialogue,its america edging them on and their famous"we dont negotiate with terrorists"slogan the junior brother of "axis of evil"

lucabrasi:

@poster
don't blame just israel for not being used to dialogue,its america edging them on and their famous"we don't negotiate with terrorists"slogan the junior brother of "axis of evil"

bia, who are you expecting Israel to dialogue with?

davidylan:

bia, who are you expecting Israel to dialogue with?

ha ha who did they do the exchange with today?
yes ,,,them,

lucabrasi:

ha ha who did they do the exchange with today?
yes ,,,them,

you people are as funny as you are ignorant. Israel to "dialogue" with hezbollah?
Its so ridiculous i can only laugh. Remove your head from the sand, hezbolah is dedicated to the destruction of Israel not a dialogue.

davidylan:

you people are as funny as you are ignorant. Israel to "dialogue" with hezbollah?
Its so ridiculous i can only laugh. Remove your head from the sand, hezbolah is dedicated to the destruction of Israel not a dialogue.

here comes the verbal barbs again,mr man you are an intelligent individual and so i dont expect you to use insults or verbal barbs to push ypur reasoning across pls,
first of for the records,i am not in support of hezbolla nor the whole vicious circle going on between either palestine or israel e.t.c im a christian and that should give you an hint of where my loyalty will likely be,but the real truth of it to my view is that the steady breakdown of communications over the years and perceived injustices made groups like hezbollah gain sympathy and lead now,arafat who was considered a devil by the west those days and other leaders who have being in decision making(under arafat e.t.c) looking back now seems like a moderate leader

lucabrasi:

here comes the verbal barbs again,mr man you are an intelligent individual and so i don't expect you to use insults or verbal barbs to push ypur reasoning across please,
first of for the records,i am not in support of hezbolla nor the whole vicious circle going on between either palestine or israel e.t.c im a christian and that should give you an hint of where my loyalty will likely be,but the real truth of it to my view is that the steady breakdown of communications over the years and perceived injustices made groups like hezbollah gain sympathy and lead now,arafat who was considered a devil by the west those days and other leaders who have being in decision making(under arafat e.t.c) looking back now seems like a moderate leader

Some good comments right there.

Israel has to change her foreign policy from the ineffective "we will bomb everybody" to the more effective "we will talk to somebody".

davidylan:

you people are as funny as you are ignorant. Israel to "dialogue" with hezbollah?
Its so ridiculous i can only laugh. Remove your head from the sand, hezbolah is dedicated to the destruction of Israel not a dialogue.

sorry to disagree with you dave, but if israel could "dialogue" with hezbollah to exchange dead israelis for living "terrorists" why should they not dialogue with them b4 the israelis die? why wait for them to die, and after an expensive, unneccessary and unsuccessful military campaign to do what should have been done? non-negotiations with terrorists is not working in the world today. face it.

talk to these people. who knows, they can be won over. remember, the US authorities negotiated with ''terrorists'' in iraq (sunni militants) and won them over, got them in their pay roll and used them to fight off al-qaeda in iraq which led to reduced violence there,

Jeez, this is not only the appropriate thing to do, it is also common sense.

. . . . or as they say . . . common sense is no longer common

toshmann:

sorry to disagree with you dave, but if israel could "dialogue" with hezbollah to exchange dead israelis for living "terrorists" why should they not dialogue with them before the israelis die? why wait for them to die, and after an expensive, unneccessary and unsuccessful military campaign to do what should have been done? non-negotiations with terrorists is not working in the world today. face it.

talk to these people. who knows, they can be won over. remember, the US authorities negotiated with ''terrorists'' in iraq (sunni militants) and won them over, got them in their pay roll and used them to fight off al-qaeda in iraq which led to reduced violence there,

Jeez, this is not only the appropriate thing to do, it is also common sense.

. . . . or as they say . . . common sense is no longer common

Israel was egged on by america supplying arms through British airports in order to make the lives of the Lebanese miserable. Not that they thought they could win. They just wanted to inflict pain and hardship on ordinary Lebanese people. Any wonder why the ordinary Lebanese person may grow up with an unending hatred for Israel and America?

lucabrasi:

first of for the records,i am not in support of hezbolla nor the whole vicious circle going on between either palestine or israel e.t.c im a christian and that should give you an hint of where my loyalty will likely be,but the real truth of it to my view is that the steady breakdown of communications over the years and perceived injustices made groups like hezbollah gain sympathy and lead now,arafat who was considered a devil by the west those days and other leaders who have being in decision making(under arafat e.t.c) looking back now seems like a moderate leader

I have highlighted several phrases you used which i think are frankly arab propaganda.

- Steady breakdown of communication - Sir, which communication? Remember the 3 Nos of Khartourm in 1965? There was no Hezbollah then. There has been only one form of "communication" between Israel and the arab world - War since 1922.

- Perceived injustices - These amorphous phrase has been doing the rounds for decades and no one can put a hand on what these "injustices" really are. Israel was attacked in 1948 by these same people crying "injustice" . . . what "injustice"? Did Israel, then barely a few months old attack Lebanon, Jordan or Iraq?

- Groups like hezbollah gain sympathy - That sir is wrong. These groups are basically a bunch of racist, anti-semitic thugs simply acting out centuries old muslim intolerance of the jewish nation. There was no Israeli invasion of Gaza or the Westbank in 1964 when the PLO (the thugs in the WestBank) was formed.

toshmann:

sorry to disagree with you dave, but if israel could "dialogue" with hezbollah to exchange dead israelis for living "terrorists" why should they not dialogue with them before the israelis die?

What dialogue bro? It is no longer news that hamas, hezbollah and others ACTIVELY seek to capture Israeli citizens and troops to use as ransom to secure the release of jailed terrorists.

toshmann:

non-negotiations with terrorists is not working in the world today. face it.

Its impossible to "negotiate" with a people whose life goal is your eventual destruction albeit inch by inch. Israel "negotiated" and pulled out of Gaza . . . what has it gained? Rockets on Sderot.
Relinquishing the Golan heights is a welcome invitation to put Iranian rockets within reach of Tel Aviv.

Bush may be a hated figure but history will one day prove him right, you do not negotiate with mad men.

toshmann:

talk to these people. who knows, they can be won over.

Maybe you can show us how. Its easy to sit in our houses, free of terrorist rockets and beleaguer the Jews to "talk" to her enemies. It didnt work in 1948, Israel actively sought to return captured land in 1967 but was flatly rebuffed by Jordan and Egypt, have you read the Hamas constitution?
Yeah read it first and see how you can "talk" and "win over" a people who think to destroy you is to do allah's bidding.

toshmann:

remember, the US authorities negotiated with ''terrorists'' in iraq (sunni militants) and won them over, got them in their pay roll and used them to fight off al-qaeda in iraq which led to reduced violence there,

The truth is probably because they ran out of weapons and manpower.

toshmann:

Jeez, this is not only the appropriate thing to do, it is also common sense.

Dont just sit in the US proffering unworkable solutions, emigrate to Israel and go try talking to people who would use their 4 yr old children if it means they can kill 1 or 2 jews.

We can't even say that people have chosen to give Hezbollah "the benefit of doubt" for there is no doubt as to Hezbollah's stated objective-its policy objective(the destruction of Israel) has been stated with such clarity and emphasis as to dispel any doubt.

People who choose to convince themselves that Hezbollah's raison d'etre are 'injustices' are entitled to their delusions but in Israel,Israelis have to confront reality as it is.

In the light of Hezbollah's stated ambitions,to what extent can 'dialogue' achieve much? No lucid person will demand of a people that they handle a group sworn to their destruction with sympathy and understanding. Besides,dialogue entails a two-way conversation,in the absence of any indication on the part of Hezbollah of a willingness to reach an amicable solution,the question of Israel's refusing to engage in dialogue is rendered redundant.

Hezbollah's willingness to dialogue is limited to peripheral matters-exchanging bodies,prisoners,ceasefires,e.t.c. Crucially,Israel has made no claims to Lebanese territory. The idea that Israel has to negotiate its own destruction beggars belief.

toshmann:

sorry to disagree with you dave, but if israel could "dialogue" with hezbollah to exchange dead israelis for living "terrorists" why should they not dialogue with them before the israelis die? why wait for them to die, and after an expensive, unneccessary and unsuccessful military campaign to do what should have been done? non-negotiations with terrorists is not working in the world today. face it.

talk to these people. who knows, they can be won over. remember, the US authorities negotiated with ''terrorists'' in iraq (sunni militants) and won them over, got them in their pay roll and used them to fight off al-qaeda in iraq which led to reduced violence there,

Jeez, this is not only the appropriate thing to do, it is also common sense.

. . . . or as they say . . . common sense is no longer common

toshmann,

You're on point! But people hallucinating from the delusion of the lie "Israel cannot be wrong" will never see the wisdom loaded in your brief but articulate piece.

toshmann:

sorry to disagree with you dave, but if israel could "dialogue" with hezbollah to exchange dead israelis for living "terrorists" why should they not dialogue with them before the israelis die?

How could Isreal negotiate before? How?

toshmann:

why wait for them to die, and after an expensive, unneccessary and unsuccessful military campaign to do what should have been done? non-negotiations with terrorists is not working in the world today. face it.

Where the Israeli prisoners alive when captured? And when exactly did they die or where killed? Their captors never allowed pictures of them or anyone to go in to confirm they were even alive.

toshmann:

talk to these people. who knows, they can be won over. remember, the US authorities negotiated with ''terrorists'' in iraq (sunni militants) and won them over, got them in their pay roll and used them to fight off al-qaeda in iraq which led to reduced violence there,

Jeez, this is not only the appropriate thing to do, it is also common sense.

. . . . or as they say . . . common sense is no longer common

But Hezbollah is still saying it will not stop until it brings Israel to its knees, even after all the talk. Are you sure these talks work in 100% of the cases?

Wednesday's exchange was also a wrenching end to the war for Israel. The soldiers' capture by Hezbollah fighters in a cross-border raid in 2006 triggered the 34-day war. The campaign to bring Ehud Goldwasser and Eldad Regev home had become a national crusade.

[size=13pt]The soldiers' Hezbollah captors had withheld any information about them since they were taken, refusing to release pictures or allow the Red Cross to see them. It was not clear if Regev and Goldwasser were killed in the original raid or if they died in captivity. Evidence at the scene indicated both were seriously wounded.[/size]Though officials had suspected they were dead, the sight of the coffins was the first confirmation of their fate.

Regev's father, Zvi, said he fell apart the moment he saw Hezbollah take the coffins out of a van and place them on the ground.

"It was horrible to see it. I didn't want to, I asked them to turn off the TV," he said, choking back tears.

Israel did also have to hand over the remains of about 200 Hezbollah fighters

Part of the swap included Israel handing over the remains of some 199 fighters.

dudu-bobo:

Israel was egged on by america supplying arms through British airports in order to make the lives of the Lebanese miserable. Not that they thought they could win. They just wanted to inflict pain and hardship on ordinary Lebanese people. Any wonder why the ordinary Lebanese person may grow up with an unending hatred for Israel and America?

What else can you say to such unverifiable nonsense and clearly false allegation as typed above?

RichyBlacK:

Some good comments right there.

Israel has to change her foreign policy from the ineffective "we will bomb everybody" to the more effective "we will talk to somebody".

When will you urge Hezbollah or Hamas to change their "foreign policy" from the ineffective "we will not rest until every jew is dead" to the more effective "life is preferable to death"?

davidylan:

Israel was egged on by america supplying arms through British airports in order to make the lives of the Lebanese miserable. Not that they thought they could win. They just wanted to inflict pain and hardship on ordinary Lebanese people. Any wonder why the ordinary Lebanese person may grow up with an unending hatred for Israel and America?

What else can you say to such unverifiable nonsense and clearly false allegation as typed above?

Which allegation is false? why did they wait till they were virtually forced to stop the destruction of Lebanon before commencement of negotiations for the release of the same soldiers?

i insist, there is no enemity that time and dialogue cannot resolve. history is replete with soooooooo many examples. let me start with our own nigeria, just 40yrs ago, apparently no living igbo man would consider yoruba or hausa man as anything but devilish. this bitterness was sooo intense that even today, many people from that generation that went to war still habour such bitterness. but hey, in my generations, young dudes are not only dating but even marrying yorubas and vice versa

there was a time the english and the welsh wanted each orther dead. the scottish felt the english were better off 6 feet below. if you go back to british history, the bitterness between the english and the scottish/welsh was far worse than that between israel and her arab neighbours. today they are one country (though they still hate each other)

last century the germans wanted all jews either dead or enslaved(dont tell me it was just hitler, the average german was not nice either. . then) today israel can do business with germany. . .

USA vs Japan

white americans vs african americans

i can go on and on, there is always bitterness in history and this is not the first time one group wants the complete annihilation of another.

it will be unwise to believe that co-existence, if not friendship, is impossible.
i strongly believe it is possible, albeit very difficult. but it is a better option.

and kobo,
whatever you may give as a possible reason, the fact remains that the sunni militants are now on the US side. it has produced low level violence. it would never have been if the US did not attempt to talk to the "terrorists".

al-qaeda may be determined to destroy US/Israel today, but if no attempt at talking to percieved terrorists happens, they will only gain membership and the bitterness will last forever. some of these so called terrorists can be talked to, at least that will bring a debate in their camp.

Islam is rising in the UK, and extremists are gaining membership, but the british govt is not being confrontational with the extremists. talks go on and just b4 i left the UK, there were 2 camps in british islam. . . the extremists and those strongly opposing them. now if the british govt was confrontational, even the moderates will back the extremists and violence will escalate.

this is not the first time some group wants another annihilated. other times in history were settled thru dialogue and this shouldnt be different

What you guys do not know is that Israel do not give a phock what Yankee think. Israel acts independently to secure their future and America later pretends that it OKayed Israels actions. So you guys should stop calling Israel Americas 'junior brother' cos Israel make their decisions independently. Even if Yankee do not agree with their course of actiion, they go ahead with it anyway and Yankee is left to pick up the diplomatic pieces.

dudu-bobo:

Which allegation is false? why did they wait till they were virtually forced to stop the destruction of Lebanon before commencement of negotiations for the release of the same soldiers?

Mr Dudu - would you honestly refrain from using the army if Camerounian guerilla rebels kept attacking Bonny NLNG to kidnap Nigerian oil workers without provocation?

why do we hold Israel to spurious standards we ourselves would NEVER adhere to?

Do you honestly call this a "negotiation" or a hostage situation?

honestly your posts appall me.

Toshman, you need to start living in reality when it comes to the Israel-Palestine issue. Israel's problem is that she simply exists.

I ask you, what is so special about this crisis that EVERY ARAB, EVERY MUSLIM is crying so hard about? Is it really about land the size of a grape fruit?

dave i have no doubt in my mind that the arabs are extremely anti israel. i am not anti israel. i am not expecting any miracle from israel's diplomats. all i am saying is that there has to be a way.

this is exactly how the jews felt when hitler struck. their offence? their existence. so it is not new in human history. people have been attacked for no other reason than their existence. why did hitler attack russia? this is not new in human history. trust me.

while it seems sooo bad, all i am saying is . . talks are possible. yea. are you telling me that no single palestinian or arab on earth is interested in living peacefully? now if there are arabs who want to live peacefully and productively then that desire can be harnessed. talks can happen. dont be soo negative.
if they can talk to exchange corpses and prisoners, then they can talk. and if they can talk, they had better start talking.

toshmann does not expect anything great from such talks now. if "civilised" hillary and obama supporters in one party in a democracy are having problems talking in the US it will be unfair to expect any sudden miraculous fall out from israeli-arab talks now. however, with persistence, someday, may be in the next 1 yr/10yrs/100yrs. . etc something positive can come out of the talks.

the alternative. . . no talks, war forever. who looses? . . israel and arabs and indeed the rest of the world(except may be newsmedia. . lol)

Toshman, why is it that when you all talk about "talks", the onus is always on Israel?
When will i hear you "proponents of peace" start calling those murderous thugs who even lined up presidents to greet a child murderer who would long have been executed in other countries but was allowed to marry and recieve an education in Israeli jail?

toshmann:

while it seems sooo bad, all i am saying is . . talks are possible. yea. are you telling me that no single palestinian or arab on earth is interested in living peacefully? now if there are arabs who want to live peacefully and productively then that desire can be harnessed. talks can happen. don't be soo negative.

Who should Israel talk to pls? I'm waiting to hear from you, it is not enough to admonish them to go talk. you cant "talk" with yourself you know.

David, today the US is said to be trying to establish a diplomatic base in iran. . . hmmmn, the same iran they refused to talk with? the US talks with north korea. . . hmmmn . . . . axis of. . . . what was it again?

who did israel talk to when they needed the corpses of their two dead soldiers? who? remind me please.

how did the negotiations happen. or suddenly israel decided to unilaterally release five prisoners and someone produced two dead bodies for israel? who did they talk to? hmmmmn, we dunno.

see dave, if they want to talk, they will talk, period. whom they talk to? they'll figure that out. dont joke with their diplomatic expertise.

why do i place the onus on israel? b/c they have the upper hand. they have the 4 aces, (or most of them), and they are civilised. they can show the way.

what happened in gaza was a unilateral decision by israel to withdraw. talks are at least bilateral. even at that, if the gaza talk was bilateral, and israel did not benefit from it, it is still a good attempt at peace. we must always continue to pursue peace. it wont be easy, i didnt say so, but we must always continue.

the more they talk. . . the less they fight. . . . common sense.

toshmann:

David, today the US is said to be trying to establish a diplomatic base in iran. . . hmmmn, the same iran they refused to talk with? the US talks with north korea. . . hmmmn . . . . axis of. . . . what was it again?

This analogy is so far apart from the Israeli crisis i dont know what the relevance really is. The US is talking to Iran and North Korea primarily to stop their weapons programs.

toshmann:

who did israel talk to when they needed the corpses of their two dead soldiers? who? remind me please.

There were no direct or indirect talks. I keep reminding you, this was NO talks but a hostage situation. Hezbollah deliberately invaded Israeli borders to abduct soldiers they could use for ransom.

toshmann:

how did the negotiations happen. or suddenly israel decided to unilaterally release five prisoners and someone produced two dead bodies for israel? who did they talk to? hmmmmn, we don't know.

Yawn. You guys say something else pls . . . its always Israel who has to go fishing for those to talk to even when their plan is the murder of every single jew on earth?

toshmann:

see dave, if they want to talk, they will talk, period. whom they talk to? they'll figure that out. don't joke with their diplomatic expertise.

Pls when are you going to remind Hamas to go talk?

toshmann:

why do i place the onus on israel? b/c they have the upper hand. they have the 4 aces, (or most of them), and they are civilised. they can show the way.

poor excuse. If the arabs had the "upper hand" we wont be debating "talks" but how to bury the jewish dead.
What do you mean by "they are civilised"? So Hezbollah is excused to go on killing until the Jews come to "talk" to them because being civilised is the sole perogative of Israel?

toshmann:

what happened in gaza was a unilateral decision by israel to withdraw.

Read your news, it was a unilateral decision.

toshmann:

talks are at least bilateral. even at that, if the gaza talk was bilateral, and israel did not benefit from it, it is still a good attempt at peace. we must always continue to pursue peace. it wont be easy, i didnt say so, but we must always continue.

What are you on about? Still a good attempt at "peace" with rockets raining down on Sderot daily?

toshmann:

the more they talk. . . the less they fight. . . . common sense.

tell this to the arabs pls.

davidylan:

This analogy is so far apart from the Israeli crisis i don't know what the relevance really is. The US is talking to Iran and North Korea primarily to stop their weapons programs.

point. . . you can talk to your enemies and make progress. it is possible regardless of the depth of the enemity. even if it looks unprofitable, at least try.

davidylan:

This analogy is so far apart from the Israeli crisis i don't know what the relevance really is. The US is talking to Iran and North Korea primarily to stop their weapons programs.

There were no direct or indirect talks. I keep reminding you, this was NO talks but a hostage situation. Hezbollah deliberately invaded Israeli borders to abduct soldiers they could use for ransom.

Yawn. You guys say something else please . . . its always Israel who has to go fishing for those to talk to even when their plan is the murder of every single jew on earth?

but they communicated? that is "talks" are telling me that hezbollah announce in the internet/tv etc that israel should return their prisoners? there must have been some "talking" somewhere. it is a talk. one day the topic can change.

israel is a civilised nation, they can talk. they can start it. those guys are not civilised enough to even want talks, but somehow something can happen. start the talks. who could believe sunni militants could be on US side someday. have you forgotten the dreaded sunni triangle. dont always be pessimistic.

davidylan:


poor excuse. If the arabs had the "upper hand" we wont be debating "talks" but how to bury the jewish dead.
What do you mean by "they are civilised"? So Hezbollah is excused to go on killing until the Jews come to "talk" to them because being civilised is the sole perogative of Israel?

granted, poor excuse. better than no excuse. point is, you cant give up on peace. or are you saying this war should continue forever? something has to happen, or you expect israel to wipe out the palestinians? or vice versa? something has to happen somewhere somehow. until we figure that out we must try the option available now. . . . talks. it can work.

davidylan:

Read your news, it was a unilateral decision.

but that was what i said. read my post again

davidylan:

tell this to the arabs please.

i wish

Toshie my brother . . . you live in a parallel paradise.
Talks ko, words ni.

in the absence of talks dave,
with palestinians/arabs ever so willing to continue the violence
israel ever so ready to defend themselves(sometimes by attacking)
israel has a right to defend themselves

terrorists breeding everywhere and everyday

dave, my friend, tell me, what are the options on the table?

1. israel wipes out the arabs and then there may be peace

2. arabs wipe out israel and then there may be peace

3. dangling to and fro violence continues and we sit and watch every night b4 going to bed from generation to generation

dave what should happen now. think of a better option and you have my full support.

davidylan:

Toshie my brother . . . you live in a parallel paradise.
Talks ko, words ni.

parallel paradise
abeg you sabi say i no know book, wetin this one mean? b/c i dey suffer for this una country, and yet you de mention paradise