Truth Or Fact? - Religion - Nairaland
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| Truth Or Fact? by Amujale(m): 11:35am On Jul 22, 2008 |
Perhaps the most common persuasive notion of truth is that it lies in correspondence to the facts. Yet, by stipulating rigid conditions whereby a true - statement applies, then, such notion becomes inadmissable. Take for instance the statement 'grass is green'; this is a true-statement if and only if grass is indeed green; this does not imply that such statement cannot be fact in its own right, but that grass does not indeed have to be green before or after it is stated as fact; rather, it merely has to be proven or conceded to such effect. With this, grass would not have been revealed to be truly green but instead be called green on the basis of a concession. Is fact synonymous to truth? Truth is that which is in itself real, concise, definite, and unchangeable; meaning more than real or genuine; that which was, is, and shall always be real and incorruptible in terms of permanence and lasting. Whilst fact is that which is known, conceded upon or considered to be real or genuine; a stipulation of concession. The failure to distinguish or even accept truth as a major element from the use with regards to grammatical values; the notion that allows the distinction of of truth from fact is in harmony with the general intellectual character of modern expression in which we think of primarily as academic. |
| Re: Truth Or Fact? by wirinet(m): 1:08pm On Jul 22, 2008 |
Truth is not as you say concise, definite, and unchangeable; meaning more than real or genuine;that which was, is, and shall always be real and incorruptible in terms of permanence and lasting - Whilst fact is that which is known, conceded upon or considered to be real or genuine; a stipulation of concession. Meaning there is nothing like universal truth Also truth is often derived from facts. Now me use your example, Grass is not always green and i can say grass is not green at all. Before you can understand you have to know what colours really are and why grass appear green to you. Grass appears green because the sun gives out most of its light in the "green" and "yellow" spectrum and a pigment in plant (chlorophyll) reflects rather than absorb the green light. So the light waves is reflected to your eyes as green. If the sun should reduce the green portion of the light or chlorophyll starts absorbing green light waves, then grass would stop being green, also if person with a colour blindness for green would not see the grass as green. So what is the truth about the universal colour of grass |
| Re: Truth Or Fact? by PastorAIO: 3:57pm On Jul 22, 2008 |
Truth has it's place in Eternity. Facts have their place in Temporality. Facts have their time span. The Grass is Green. Yes, but only for one week. After that it becomes brown. Therefore it is not a Truth that Grass is Green. These are Ontological questions really. Ontology is the study of what can be said to exist. For many mystics and philosophers Facts do not actually exist but are an illusion. Afterall how can something that eventually ceases to be evident be said to have existed. Therefore only Eternal things exist. Indeed those that experience eternity say that afterwards this temporal world does not feel real to them anymore. Feel real? Could it be that the reality of something is just a feeling, a subjective experience. You don't even have to have an experience of eternity. If you've ever fainted, or sometimes just woken up from a deep sleep, it takes time before sensual experiences take on their starkness and realness again. The realness of it can also be affected by the occurrence of certain events. Like the day that you get you exam results and you pass to go to the college that you've been dreaming of all your life. You have to pinch yourself. "Is this real"?, you'll blink twice. And then again sometimes things feel so much more real and in your face than they normally do. So how does this subjective experience of realness work? I suspect that endurance has a lot to do with it. For instance I believe that we dismiss dreams as being unreal because most dreams are one off experiences. Whereas every morning you awake, you awake to see the same four walls, the same window, and the same gorgeous wife lying next to you. Therefore your waking experience is considered more real than the dream. Awake is reinforced by repetition. However imagine that you dreamt every night of going to the same well and there meeting 3 friends with whom you converse. Imagine the dreams have continuity. Like one night you advise one of the friends to stand up to his wife. Afterall he is the man in the house. Then the next night you dream again and you see him with a black eye and a swollen jaw. And he is very upset with you for previously advising him to stand up to his wife, advise that has led to such abysmal consequences. If we dreamt like that, with consistent scenarios and continuity in the story then I dare say that we would consider our dreams real and invest some of our energies into ensuring that our dream life is suitable. If endurance and continuity are what lead us to accept something as being real, then it makes sense when philosophers like Plato and the Pre socratics considered FActs to be unreal. Is Grass really green or does it just give the illusion to be in the state of greenness for a time? Anything that doesn't last forever or isn't eternal cannot be Real. Everytime you contemplate eternal things they remain as they are, True, so therefore they are ontologically speaking the only real things. 2 Likes |
| Re: Truth Or Fact? by Amujale(m): 6:24pm On Jul 22, 2008 |
Think of a compound proposition where truth or falsity is unequivocally determined by the reality or falsity of its components for different possible cases; whereby P or Q is a true - function of P and Q. Since this notion is false if they are both false, but true if P is true or if Q is true or if they both are: then, P* or Q* is a fact - function of P and Q since it is deemed false if they both are unfounded, but founded if P* is factual or if Q* is factual or if they both are. However, some compound propositions do not appear to be FUNCTIONAL at first glance. For instance - P* because Q* cannot be factual unless both P* and Q* are founded, but even if they are, it may either be TRUE or FALSE; as P* because Q* is true if and only if both P* and Q* are indeed P and Q respectively. |
| Re: Truth Or Fact? by PastorAIO: 6:38pm On Jul 22, 2008 |
This is some serious grammar. o boy can you please define your terms in laymans language. I thought you were talking about something else completely. |
| Re: Truth Or Fact? by PastorAIO: 6:41pm On Jul 22, 2008 |
My conclusion is that: Truth is Truth Falsity is falsity and Fact is fact. Howzat! 1 Like |
| Re: Truth Or Fact? by HCH3COO: 6:43pm On Jul 22, 2008 |
Amujale:If P or Q as true is a function of P and Q, it is still dependent on P* and Q* and will only be true as determined by not just P* but Q* as well. P* may be true, but that does not make the notion true until Q* is confirmed true as well. Dangling modifier: and. |
| Re: Truth Or Fact? by Amujale(m): 7:16pm On Jul 22, 2008 |
P or Q denotes the actuality whilst P* or Q* denotes derivatives. That is to say P or Q are not in the slightest reliant on P* or Q* in as much as that at some point P* will actualy represent P; Q* will actualy represent Q: these are rare occassions. Pastor AIO that is pretty much so except for when the point whereby the 'fact' conceded is in all actuality nothing but the 'truth'. However at such point it would cease to be a 'fact' but rather the 'truth'. |
| Re: Truth Or Fact? by HCH3COO: 7:18pm On Jul 22, 2008 |
Amujale:Ohhhh! Well you didn't say that. I got you now. 1 Like |
| Re: Truth Or Fact? by justcool(m): 9:47pm On Jul 22, 2008 |
wirinet: @wirinet I am amazed at your knowledge. You are definitely very intelligent. I agree with your last paragraph(the highlighted part) but I disagree with your conclusion that "Truth is not as you say concise, definite, and unchangeable." Truth is eternal and unchangeable. You are right about the greenness of grass being as a result of chlorophyll which absorbs all color and reflects green. In actuality the greenness of the grasses comes from the sun which sends the light that contains all colors. By the nature or the composition of the material that the lights hits, some colors are reflected while others are absorbed. The material appears (to our perception) to be the color that it reflects. Therefore the color of a material is very dependant on the light it reflects, and the perception of the observer. Thus a dog might not see the leaf(grass) as green due to the fact that the dog's perceptive organs do not detect the wavelength we call green. Therefore no creature can see the plant(grass) exactly the way it is. In other words, the TRUE nature of the plant stands outside it's perception. TRUTH and perception are two different things. Man, and animals cannever see the TRUTH the way it really is. They only see it through the spectrum of their nature. Thus their perception of it depends on their nature. And this perception is changeable. Different nature sees a different perception. They a dog sees a thing is not the way man sees the same thing. Even humans change their perception as soon as their nature changes. ie, when you mature you see things differently. But the TRUTH stands above the perception of the observer and the reflection of the object observed. The TRUE nature of the grass remains unchangeable, irrespective of who observes it and wheather the sunlight hits it or not. This TRUTH, which is eternal and unchangeable can only be seen by God who is the TRUTH HIMSELF. God alone is the TRUTH, and the TRUTH can only come from GOD. This TRUTH God can reveal to humans, and when revealed, man should fine-tune his percetive ability with the revealed TRUTH. Now apply this to everything. 2 Likes |
| Re: Truth Or Fact? by Amujale(m): 3:58am On Jul 23, 2008 |
Amujale: |
| Re: Truth Or Fact? by PastorAIO: 11:13am On Jul 23, 2008 |
justcool: Yes and No. Yes, the grass is perceived from a perspective and that perspective shapes the experience of seeing grass a great deal. That is why the experience is FACTUAL, yet not Truth. However, as regards whether humans are capable of perceiving truth. I say yes we can have direct experience of truth. We do have a faculty whereby we can experience Truth only that the faculty is dormant in most people. I do not believe in revealed truth as such. If you do not have the faculties to perceive Truth then no amount of revelation will help you experience it. I hope that you are not suggesting that this revelation of Truth is something that can be written in a book. 1 Like |
| Re: Truth Or Fact? by justcool(m): 11:58pm On Jul 23, 2008 |
Pastor AIO: You are making a mistake! Humans have a faculty( the intuitive perception) which is able to perceive the Truth about anything on its level and below it. But what lies above it will remain a mystery to humans, unless revealed to them from above. Our spirits originated my the highest part of creation( the spiritual realm) and our spirit is able to perceive the Truth in anything that lies within creation ( from the spiritual realm to the physical realm). But still this is not the TRUTH, because the TRUTH existed before creation, it lies outside creation. Thus man at his best will only know a part or the Truth in creation; but this is not the TRUTH which cannot be in part and out of which creation came into being. I will explain further: even the spiritual perception( intuitive perception) differ from person to person. Based on the nature of the person, or the maturity of the person. Just as the physical perception by the physical organs differ from individual to individual. You and I don't see things exactly the same way, even science can prove this. The size of my eyes, optic nerves, and brains are not the same with yours, therefore we cannot see things exactly the same way. That faculty in man able to recognize the Truth, also perceive based on the nature and the maturity of the spirit. Above all these perceptions lies the TRUTH which no creature can perceive as such. This TRUTH is what it is irrespective of the any creatures perception of it. I can go further, but think over this and reply. Thanks 1 Like |
| Re: Truth Or Fact? by PastorAIO: 2:22pm On Jul 24, 2008 |
justcool: This faculty you call Intuition (a word that can have variable meanings), I'll accept the label Intuition for the faculty that can perceive truth. However I feel the need to mention that it has been given other labels too such as Plato called it Reason or Intellect and Aristotle called it Nous. You say there is another reality above the Truth as perceived by the Intuition. We cannot perceive this realm. What you say reminds me of those old maps that sailors used to have that at one point would say 'beyond here lies dragons'. I'm afraid what you are saying smacks of Indoctrination and dogmatism. By your very definition there can be no experiential basis for this realm so you either have to suspend disbelief and accept, or not accept. Either way it doesn't make much of a difference because you'll never experience whatever it is. I could just as easily say below the material world of facts and temporal reality there is another even coarser realm which we cannot experience either and we could never grasp because we don't have the faculty to do so. How are you gonna argue with that? I could also tell you that in my back garden there is a shed that when you enter you find yourself miraculously in paradise but only if you have certain angelic attributes that it is impossible for a man to have. I could swear and live by this story but so what? I personally would use the word Mystery in a different sense. For me mystery is not the unknown or the unknowable. For me Mystery can be experienced but it can't be processed, or made to fit, into the categories of mundane thought. Your way of using mystery, and venerating it too, allows for all sorts of dodgy doctrines. Now to the point of revelation. So we have this Truth that we can never experience yet it can be revealed to us. Yes? Tell me, have you ever tried talking to a deaf man? Or taken a blind man to the theatre? Please do one of these first and then come and tell me how you can reveal something to someone who doesn't have the faculty to receive the revelation. If you cannot perceive Truth then no amount of revelation is going to give you knowledge of it. I could reveal my whole unclothedness, blockus and all, even dance the boogaloo with my scrotum flapping about, to a blind man but it would make no difference. Again I have to ask you of your revelation, Is such revelation to be found in a book, in words, in the eloquence of rhetoric? You distinguish between truth that lies in creation and Truth that 'existed before creation'.  ?? Time is itself a key part and parcel of creation. God created Time and Space. There can be NO 'before creation'. Before is a reference to Time. Nor a beyond creation in a spatial sense. This only confirms for me that your doctrine is created by a mind totally bound by the confines of temporal reality.I will explain further: even the spiritual perception( intuitive perception) differ from person to person. Based on the nature of the person, or the maturity of the person. Just as the physical perception by the physical organs differ from individual to individual. You and I don't see things exactly the same way, even science can prove this. The size of my eyes, optic nerves, and brains are not the same with yours, therefore we cannot see things exactly the same way. That faculty in man able to recognize the Truth, also perceive based on the nature and the maturity of the spirit. I'm afraid to say that my experience is totally different. I don't think that this is something that can be argued over. It will either happen to you or it won't. To compare the spirit to the physical organ of the eyes? I don't know. With eternal things there is no perspective. Perspective occurs where there is space and Time. So from one place and at one time the experience will be different from another place and another time. Where there is no time there is no difference of perspective. This is just my attempt to explain what I'm talking about yet as I say it it feels like I'm describing it very poorly. I think that we are very far apart (different perspective?) in our experiences so that makes it quite difficult to talk about these things. Also I think that many words that we might use might have slightly different connotations for the both of us. Perhaps we should just let the matter rest. 1 Like |
| Re: Truth Or Fact? by Amujale(m): 2:59am On Feb 13, 2019 |
PastorAIO: |
| Re: Truth Or Fact? by PastorOluT(m): 11:48am On Feb 13, 2019 |
Smile, good to be back. U (PastorAIO)are one of the few I missed here with ur words of wisdom. shall on bro 1 Like |
| Re: Truth Or Fact? by PastorAIO: 11:06am On Feb 17, 2019 |
PastorOluT: Hello Pastor Olu. I'm trying to recall. Were you a friend or where you a detractor? Whichever, Welcome back sha. 1 Like |
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