haibe:

I keep mentioning saints who are humans, you keep mentioning Jesus and angels, were they the one in Abraham's bosom?? Isn't lazarus who was viewing the rich man our concern here?

Its easy to admit if you have no answer.

What is wrong with you. i said "i do not know. You ask if it is possible. i have shown you proof that it is possible."
The Bible does not state definitely that Lazarus saw the rich man in hell, i do not know where you saw lazarus viewing and how such is your concern. i have tried to stick with what the Bible says, and that is that Jesus and the Holy angels are able to see the torments in hell, and that we believers will be like angels in that kingdom. This is what the Bible clearly says.
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Mat 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

When John saw visions in revelations, he was in more than one instance confused as he bowed in worship to an angelic man, who had to tell him that he is a man like him.

haibe:

Can you show me that particular scriptures that says when the ungodly die, they go to hell fire and immediately to start burning?, that is if your definition of hell here doesn't mean the grave or hades.

Also who are they going to meet in hell fire?

i have never said that anybody goes to hell fire and immediately starts burning. Please, stick to what i am saying.

haibe:

That of lazarus and the rich has been explained, if you still wish to hold on to that then you must accept that that situation and everything that happens there is literally true.

Did the bible say elijah went to paradise? did the thief on the cross meet Jesus in paradise that day?

The souls at altar in heaven described in revelation implies the martyrdom of the saints and is seen as a sacrifice, God remembers the live they gave up for Christ, that verse is figurative.

On lazarus, i have asked you to show us any of Jesus' parables that are impossible. i'm yet to see you show this. The Bible shows that Elijah is not unconscious and knowing nothing, same thing with Moses, and with the souls at the altar. The souls at the altar knew something and were even asking God something. they were not unconscious knowing nothing. We need to look at the scriptures as a whole, and not just some part that seem to suit our logic and teaching. Did Jesus lie when He told the thief that they will meet in paradise that day?

Image123:
i have never said that anybody goes to hell fire and immediately starts burning. Please, stick to what i am saying.

Okay then, I have no problen with you as regards this, maybe some other people will have to answer that.

but look, you don't believe they start burning immediately but yet you believe the story of the rich man and lazarus is literal, are you not contradicting yourself??

Image123:
What is wrong with you. i said "i do not know. You ask if it is possible. i have shown you proof that it is possible."
The Bible does not state definitely that Lazarus saw the rich man in hell, i do not know where you saw lazarus viewing and how such is your concern.

So the rich man could see lazarus and abraham but lazarus and abraham could not see him??

22 “The time came when the beggar died and
the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The
rich man also died and was buried. 23 In
Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up
and SAW ABRAHAM FAR AWAY, with Lazarus by his
side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham,
have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the
tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue,
because I am in agony in this fire.’

Image123:
On lazarus, i have asked you to show us any of Jesus' parables that are impossible. i'm yet to see you show this. The Bible shows that Elijah is not unconscious and knowing nothing, same thing with Moses, and with the souls at the altar. The souls at the altar knew something and were even asking God something. they were not unconscious knowing nothing. We need to look at the scriptures as a whole, and not just some part that seem to suit our logic and teaching. Did Jesus lie when He told the thief that they will meet in paradise that day?

Did Jesus go to paradise that day?

Where did the bible say elijah is not unconscious?

I never said Jesus parables are impossible, I said they are not literal but are meant to drive a point, usually a moral lesson.

haibe:

Okay then, I have no problen with you as regards this, maybe some other people will have to answer that.

but look, you don't believe they start burning immediately but yet you believe the story of the rich man and lazarus is literal, are you not contradicting yourself??

hell is not hell fire. i expect that you should know this.

haibe:

So the rich man could see lazarus and abraham but lazarus and abraham could not see him??

22 “The time came when the beggar died and
the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The
rich man also died and was buried. 23 In
Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up
and SAW ABRAHAM FAR AWAY, with Lazarus by his
side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham,
have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the
tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue,
because I am in agony in this fire.’

Where does the passage say definitely that Lazarus was viewing anybody? What exactly is your point on this?

Image123:
hell is not hell fire. i expect that you should know this.

so Lazarus was in hell but not hell fire

Image123:
hell is not hell fire. i expect that you should know this.

I know this, so where do they go, hell or hell fire?

haibe:

Did Jesus go to paradise that day?

Where did the bible say elijah is not unconscious?

I never said Jesus parables are impossible, I said they are not literal but are meant to drive a point, usually a moral lesson.

Did Jesus lie when He told the thief that they will meet in paradise that day? In fact, did Jesus even say anything about paradise to the thief, and what did He say if you think He said anything?
The Bible showed us that Elijah is not unconscious when it showed him come to Jesus on the mount of transfiguration to speak of His demise. It also tells us that a cloud of WITNESSES are around us. Witnesses are not unconscious, knowing nothing. The Bible is filled with all these illustrations and passages. Paul talks about being in a strait, wanting to depart and be with the Lord. the souls under the altar are not unconscious knowing nothing.
You imply that Jesus' saying on the rich man and lazarus is impossible. Of course all His teachings, even His life is a moral lesson.

Image123:

Where does the passage say definitely that Lazarus was viewing anybody? What exactly is your point on this?

My point is simple, do not take that parable literally or else a lot of questions would arise.

frosbel:

so Lazarus was in hell but not hell fire

The Bible clearly says Lazarus was in Abraham's bo.som, which is also paradise.

haibe:

I know this, so where do they go, hell or hell fire?

Who, sinners? If sinners, some go to hell. Nobody is in hell fire yet.

Image123:
Did Jesus lie when He told the thief that they will meet in paradise that day? In fact, did Jesus even say anything about paradise to the thief, and what did He say if you think He said anything?
The Bible showed us that Elijah is not unconscious when it showed him come to Jesus on the mount of transfiguration to speak of His demise. It also tells us that a cloud of WITNESSES are around us. Witnesses are not unconscious, knowing nothing. The Bible is filled with all these illustrations and passages. Paul talks about being in a strait, wanting to depart and be with the Lord. the souls under the altar are not unconscious knowing nothing.
You imply that Jesus' saying on the rich man and lazarus is impossible. Of course all His teachings, even His life is a moral lesson.

What the disciples experienced at the mount of transfiguration was a pure vision which depicted how glorious we would be at the ressurection. This isn't so different from peter vision of the unclean beasts.

you didn't answer my question, did Jesus go to paradise that day? and where is this paradise located .

I only know of two paradises in the bible, the one we lost at the beginning and the one we will regain at the end, they are both on earth

So explain this paradise of yours for me

haibe:

My point is simple, do not take that parable literally or else a lot of questions would arise.

i take it possibly, and no wise unanswered question so far since i took it so.

Image123:
i take it possibly, and no wise unanswered question so far since i took it so.

Does that mean when a sinner dies, he goes to hades and start burning in fire immediately or that those in hell can view those in heaven crying for water?? or that there is a big gulf fixed between both places.

haibe:


What the disciples experienced at the mount of transfiguration was a pure vision which depicted how glorious we would be at the ressurection. This isn't so different from peter vision of the unclean beasts.

you didn't answer my question, did Jesus go to paradise that day?

i'm waiting for my answers na. see my questions again.
Did Jesus lie when He told the thief that they will meet in paradise that day? In fact, did Jesus even say anything about paradise to the thief, and what did He say if you think He said anything?

it appears you are reading me selectively as well, not wholly. So, you are saying that Moses and Elijah did not appear to Jesus, or God ddid not speak? What is wrong again with vision. When gabriel appeared in vision, did he not appear.
The Bible showed us that Elijah is not unconscious when it showed him come to Jesus on the mount of transfiguration to speak of His demise. It also tells us that a cloud of WITNESSES are around us. Witnesses are not unconscious, knowing nothing. The Bible is filled with all these illustrations and passages. Paul talks about being in a strait, wanting to depart and be with the Lord. the souls under the altar are not unconscious knowing nothing.

Image123:
The Bible clearly says Lazarus was in Abraham's bo.som, which is also paradise.

where is paradise now ?

..

haibe:

Does that mean when a sinner dies, he goes to hades and start burning in fire immediately or that those in hell can view those in heaven crying for water?? or that there is a big gulf fixed between both places.

Jesus means what He says and says what He means. If the Bible says it, i believe it and that settles it for me. you can go ask god for logical explanations, thanks. If you have real questions, do ask. But if all you want to keep asking me in different forms is if God's word is true or possible, count me out.

Image123:
i'm waiting for my answers na. see my questions again.
Did Jesus lie when He told the thief that they will meet in paradise that day? In fact, did Jesus even say anything about paradise to the thief, and what did He say if you think He said anything?

Jesus wasn't lieing, only that there is a punctuation error in that statement.

What Jesus obviously meant is that: I say unto you today, you will be with me in paradise.

paradise is a future event.

you can answer me now

frosbel:

where is paradise now ?

Is there paradise?

Image123:

Jesus means what He says and says what He means. If the Bible says it, i believe it and that settles it for me.

I agree

haibe:

Jesus wasn't lieing, only that there is a punctuation error in that statement.

What Jesus obviously meant is that: I say unto you today, you will be with me in paradise.

paradise is a future event.

you can answer me now

Why would He say unto him TODAY? What is His purpose of adding the word TODAY naa? Here it is again.
Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Yes Jesus went to paradise that day. Like Stephen, He went commending His inner man into God's hands. Paradise is not just future, remember Paul also was caught up there and he wrote of it.

Image123:

Why would He say unto him TODAY? What is His purpose of adding the word TODAY naa? Here it is again.
Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Yes Jesus went to paradise that day. Like Stephen, He went commending His inner man into God's hands. Paradise is not just future, remember Paul also was caught up there and he wrote of it.

Jesus did not go to paradise that day

John 20 : 17
(17 ) Jesus saith unto her , Touch me not ; for I
am not yet ASCENDED to my Father : but go to
my brethren , and say unto them , I ascend unto
my Father , and your Father ; and to my God ,
and your God .

Paradise is in heaven presently

2 Corinthians 12: 2 -4
(2 ) I knew a man in Christ above fourteen
years ago, ( whether in the body , I cannot tell;
or whether out of the body , I cannot tell: God
knoweth such an one CAUGHT UP to the third
heaven.
(3 ) And I knew such a man, (whether in the
body, or out of the body, I cannot tell : God
knoweth
(4 ) How that he was CAUGHT UP into paradise ,
and heard unspeakable words , which it is not
lawful for a man to utter.
Revelation 2 : 7

(7 ) He that hath an ear , let him hear what the
Spirit saith unto the churches ; To him that
overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life,
which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

And I John saw the holy city, new
Jerusalem, COMING DOWN from God OUT OF HEAVEN, prepared as a bride adorned for
her husband. rev 21:2


Now that you know paradise is up in heaven presently and that Jesus had not gone to heaven after ressurection, what does that tell you?

..

haibe:


Jesus did not go to paradise that day

John 20 : 17
(17 ) Jesus saith unto her , Touch me not ; for I
am not yet ASCENDED to my Father : but go to
my brethren , and say unto them , I ascend unto
my Father , and your Father ; and to my God ,
and your God .

Actually, He did. He said He would.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
(CEV) Jesus replied, "I promise that today you will be with me in paradise."
(DRB) And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee: This day thou shalt be with me in paradise.
(GNB) Jesus said to him, "I promise you that today you will be in Paradise with me."
He used a similar definite "today" earlier in the same book for zaccheus.
Luk 19:5 And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up, and saw him, and said unto him, Zacchaeus, make haste, and come down; for today I must abide at thy house.
That phrase "Verily i say unto" is used 77 times in the four gospels ALL by Jesus Christ. Only Luke 23.43 has the word "today" with it. He did not have to go to paradise with His physical body, just like the thief on did cross or Lazarus or Paul. His body laid in the grave, though it ascended some weeks later.

Paradise is in heaven presently

2 Corinthians 12: 2 -4
(2 ) I knew a man in Christ above fourteen
years ago, ( whether in the body , I cannot tell;
or whether out of the body , I cannot tell: God
knoweth such an one CAUGHT UP to the third
heaven.
(3 ) And I knew such a man, (whether in the
body, or out of the body, I cannot tell : God
knoweth
(4 ) How that he was CAUGHT UP into paradise ,
and heard unspeakable words , which it is not
lawful for a man to utter.
Revelation 2 : 7

(7 ) He that hath an ear , let him hear what the
Spirit saith unto the churches ; To him that
overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life,
which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

And I John saw the holy city, new
Jerusalem, COMING DOWN from God OUT OF HEAVEN, prepared as a bride adorned for
her husband. rev 21:2


Now that you know paradise is up in heaven presently and that Jesus had not gone to heaven after ressurection, what does that tell you?

i did not initially say that paradise was down before. It is evident that Jesus's spirit went to paradise, God always heard Him, and He prayed the Father to receive His spirit.
Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Image123:
Actually, He did. He said He would.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
(CEV) Jesus replied, "I promise that today you will be with me in paradise."
(DRB) And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee: This day thou shalt be with me in paradise.
(GNB) Jesus said to him, "I promise you that today you will be in Paradise with me."
He used a similar definite "today" earlier in the same book for zaccheus.
Luk 19:5 And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up, and saw him, and said unto him,

Zacchaeus, make haste, and come down; for today I must abide at thy house.
That phrase "Verily i say unto" is used 77 times in the four gospels ALL by Jesus Christ. Only Luke 23.43 has the word "today" with it. He did not have to go to paradise with His physical body, just like the thief on did cross or Lazarus or Paul. His body laid in the grave, though it ascended some weeks later.

If Jesus went to paradise immediately he died, how come he said he has not yet ascended to his father? did he lie?

Yes he can't even go to paradise with his earthly physical body but a glorious body, neither can he go to heaven without this glorious body..

If Jesus could go to paradise without his glorious body, what is the essence of him ressurecting before his ascension to heaven? infact what is the essence of ressurection as a whole if we can be with God in a so-called spirit form?

What is the essence of us ressurecting in an immortal body if we are already immortal in a so-called spirit form?

haibe:

If Jesus went to paradise immediately he died, how come he said he has not yet ascended to his father? did he lie?

Yes he can't even go to paradise with his earthly physical body but a glorious body, neither can he go to heaven without this glorious body..

If Jesus could go to paradise without his glorious body, what is the essence of him ressurecting before his ascension to heaven? infact what is the essence of ressurection as a whole if we can be with God in a so-called spirit form?

What is the essence of us ressurecting in an immortal body if we are already immortal in a so-called spirit form?

No, He did not lie. He has a spirit, soul and body just like you have. His body was in the grave, but it ascended a few weeks later in the presence of His disciples. When He resurrected, His disciples thought it was just His spirit but He explained that He was in body too. He in His completeness was yet to ascend to the father. It is the same for every believer that dies. Stephen's body was buried but God received his spirit, same thing would have happened to Paul when he went to be with the Lord, same thing with the souls under the altar. But we all come back at what is popularly called the rapture into our bodies. A spirit needs a body even if it is a spiritual body(1Cor15). You see that is why evil spirits look for bodies to possess. Spirits would prefer even animal's body than to be without a body. They are not convenient without a body, that is the state of evil spirits and dead sinners sort of. But saints have rest, they are not restless.
BTW, Paul did not know if he went to paradise with his body or not, so i do not know where you saw the rule that one cannot go to paradise without body. Our spirit is not our whole being, resurrection takes us as our whole being to be with God and act in full capacity in pleasing God.
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

.

frosbel: Do you know that saying RIP when someone dies is more of an accurate reflection of the state of the dead than other statements such as our loved ones have gone to be with the lord or the wicked ones are in hell.

No one except Jesus has gone to be with the Lord.

The dead are RIP , i.e resting in total peace, in fact so peaceful that they do not even know what is going on, they are stone dead.

So next time a pastor spouts lies about someone going to heaven after death or hell, tell him it is not true and he is lying.

lies. RIP is not fit for a dead sinner.