[size=14pt]16. "You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?
~ Jesus Christ in Matthew 7:16 (New American Standard Bible)[/size]

Christianity can only be practiced by honesty and transparency and not by conceit and deceit.

Therefore, if you are not honest and transparent, you cannot be a Christian.

Being a regular church-goer or reading the Holy Bible cover to cover does not make you a Christian until you live according to the commandments of Jesus Christ as preached and practiced in the New Testmament.
Finis.

I do not need to write a thesis or quote from the exegesis of Genesis to prove the above definition of true Christianity.
Jesus Christ said by their fruits you shall know them and not by their lip service and mode of dressing.

Your actions will prove whether you are a true Christian or a false Christian.

The majority of those posing and posturing as Christians are in fact not really true Christians, but hypocrites and wolves in sheep clothing.

Do not be deceived or fooled by their lip service and eye-service "Christianity".

Their behaviour and attitude and how they live and relate with their fellow humans will show you their true colours eventually.

Actions speak louder than words.

@topic
Apart from stating that most people that claim to be christians are not true christians (which i agree with you) you have not been able to give a bible based definition of what true christianity is or should be, can you explain to us what you mean by true christianity? I would drop a hint of what i understand to be true christianity as quoted from the passage below :

"What God the father considers to be pure and genuine religion is this: to take care of orphans and widows in their suffering and to keep oneself from being corrupted by the world" (James 1:27)

KunleOshob:

@topic
Apart from stating that most people that claim to be christians are not true christians (which i agree with you) you have not been able to give a bible based definition of what true christianity is or should be, can you explain to us what you mean by true christianity? I would drop a hint of what i understand to be true christianity as quoted from the passage below :

"What God the father considers to be pure and genuine religion is this: to take care of orphans and widows in their suffering and to keep oneself from being corrupted by the world" (James 1:27)

You have done very well by the quotation of James 1; 27.

I said teachings of Jesus Christ have given us the true definition of True Christianity.
It is all there even in the sermons and parables.

Quote]"What God the father considers to be pure and genuine religion is this: to take care of orphans and widows in their suffering and to keep oneself from being corrupted by the world" (James 1:27)
[quote][/quote]

If the above is pure and genuine religion, as it is recorded in james 1;27, then i am very certain therefore, that believe in Trinity or anything in its form, etc, is not essential to be in pure and genuine religion.

You guys should read your own quote again before you bury your head in trinity because jame 1;27 says it is not important, because what is important are written and trinity aint one of them!

@Olabowale
Bros, why are you so obsessed with this trinity issue?? I can not recollect any body mentioning trinity on this thread. Besides it is not all christians that profess/ emphasize the trinity doctrine. If you want to learn about true christianity, there are better ways to learn it than making baseless arguments on nairaland.

@KunleOshob: What did I say wrong? I only emphasised what makes a person a true Christian, according to the Biblical verse. I simply call attention to what is not part of the ingredients that will make a pure religion.


I could be wrong in other things, but my pointing out that trinity is not on the list in the Bible, according to that verse, is not one of those situation. What you can do however is to disprove that verse yourself as incomplete and argue logically, presenting a robust piece to buttress your view.


I need education and you are not supplying it. If something like this is presented about the Qur'an and or Hadith, I will check it out for myself. If I find it in the Qur'an, I will go to the Tafsir and hadith on the matter. I will read the explanation so that I can present a good Islamic view according to the Qur'an and Sunnah. I will not make anything up by myself, because there should not be any interpretation that must go against what Muhammad (as) said or against the Qur'an.



An example is the statement of Allah that no one will enter Paradise except that he "passes over" hell. This is in Surah Mariam. I think the verse is 71.


Allah then said it is an already determined "decree." I remember a pseudo pundit, who had claimed that she was raised a muslim, before she converted to Christianity. She erronously said that all muslim had been promised to enter hell by that verse. You see passing over something is not the same as being in it.


So I went to the tafsir. I asked every speaker of arabic that I know to tell me how many words that can be used for passing over. I listed them, including what Allah uses in the Qur'an.

You as a Yoruba will appreciate this; the yoruba language, like any other african language is so rich that a word, based on its intonation and usage can mean many things. And a thing could be expresses by many words. Sugbon, firi firi o joo okolonbo. Oun to ba ye wu, lafi nwe un. Aron ope, o jo owo alabawun.

You therefore can not say that passing over is the same as being inside what you are passing over. A thing that you may see as you are passing over it.



But God Almighty Allah did not restrict this condition of passing over to the believer only, but to all mankind. That no one will be able to reach Paradise, except everyone will have to pass over hell first.

This therefore should bring to the mind of anyone who is wise: What happens those who are not believers who will not be admitted to hell when they are in this "pass over" stage? They will have to fall in the fire of hell, since they are not meant for paradise.



Now explain your Trinity by using what Jesus said about it, or what those who saw and followed Jesus, or their followers, or there folloewrs, or their followers or their followers said?

Do you have the word that you are trying to talk about in any page of the Bible, Old and New testaments, including the psalms? If you don't have it anywhere, how can you defend it?


How does it exist? How did you get the title? Can you read a Book that has no title and come up with a singly agreed title, to everyone?


Is it possible that a person can go to a nameless school and tells you that he is a University? Can he be in a nameless course work and says that he is studying medicine?

@KunleOshob:
WHO IS JESUS EXCEPT ONE OF THE BODIES OF TRINITY, AS A SON IN THE FATHER, SON AND HOLY SPIRIT IN THE EQUATION.


HOW THEN THAT TRINITY IS NOT MENTIONED AS LONG AS JESUS IS MENTIONED? ASSUMING THAT IT IS NOT MENTIONED, THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION IS EMBEDDED IN TRINITY, NONETHELESS.


READ YOUR BIBLE AGAIN; I KNOW ABOUT THOSE WHO AMOUNG THE CHRISTIAN WHO HAVE DIFFERENT OPINION ABOUT SONSHIP OF JESUS, OR THAT JESUS IS NOT GOD, BUT THEY ARE STILL CHRISTIANS. THE LARGER CHRISTIAN BODY CONSIDERS THEM AS DEVIANTS, THOUGH.

@Olabowale
We have been through this issue of trinity beforeand i told you i don't entirely subscribe to the trinity concept as it is not accurate scripturally ( Note , i didn't say it is wrong) How ever this is my view, Jesus is the son of God, sent by God to mankind to reconcile us with him so that we might have eternal life. In Jesus, God placed authurity over heaven and earth (God like powers) and thirdly Jesus is worthy of worship as his father God is well pleased with him. I DON'T SUBSCRIBE TO THE TRINITY DOCTRINE, so stop asking me to explain it. You can take it up with the catholics on this forum, they might be able to explan it better.

Even though i am a christian, i don't subscribe to a lot of church doctrines and i depend on the bible for my inspiration (not any church) to know my views as a christian you can revert back to this thread https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-148850.0.html which you also contributed to in the past.

love ur neighbour as yourself
love and worship God.c'est finis

Kunle ,

what is the first commandment? I'm only asking because your post seems to imply that you worship Jesus.

@KunleOshob:

@Olabowale
We have been through this issue of trinity beforeand i told you[b] i don't entirely subscribe to the trinity concept as it is not accurate scripturally ( Note , i didn't say it is wrong) [/b] How ever this is my view, Jesus is the son of God, sent by God to mankind to reconcile us with him so that we might have eternal life. In Jesus, God placed authurity over heaven and earth (God like powers) and thirdly Jesus is worthy of worship as his father God is well pleased with him. I DON'T SUBSCRIBE TO THE TRINITY DOCTRINE, so stop asking me to explain it. You can take it up with the catholics on this forum, they might be able to explan it better.

Interesting to know that you dont subscribe to trinity, even though it is not wrong, but you worship Jesus and says that he is son of god!

Why then should i not ask you about trinity, since it is how the christians have been able to call him son of god or god the son; take your pick!?

And when we call you a people who worship multiple godheads you get bent out of shape.


Are you worshipping Jesus, exclusively, or you worship God too, whom you call god the father?

Either way that is disbelieving; if you worship Jesus alone, you have chosen the wrong entity to worship. If you also worship father god alone with son god, then you have set up partner with God Almighty.

Both situations lead to a path that is astray! You can observe how weak the authority of Jesus was over heavens and earth, since he was driven into the wilderness by the devil. That is not how you show you have authority over an entity.

Jesus was even overcome by hunger, the reason he seeked fruits from the fig tree. Should i remind you how he was controlled by the devil under his suggestion, temptations, three times in a role? Is that being having a total control?

I remember that the christian said that he died on the cross; could you say that the period that you erronously calculated and considered him dead, was he not overcome by death? I am tired of all the unfounded statements.

olabowale:


Jesus was even overcome by hunger, the reason he seeked fruits from the fig tree. Should i remind you how he was controlled by the devil under his suggestion, temptations, three times in a role? Is that being having a total control?

My brother, talking about devil control and suggestion, please can you explain to me how the koran came to contain Satanic Verses.

@PastorAIO:

My brother, talking about devil control and suggestion, please can you explain to me how the koran came to contain Satanic Verses.

It is Qur'an, and, not Koran. As Omo Yoruba, you should know better. Now, we should not forget that the induction of total prohibition of consumption of alcoholic drinks and intosticants, did not come in one sweep move.

Neither was prohibition of illegal, outside of marriage sexual relation. These and other prohibitions can in a gradual process, being directly related to the strength of the faith of the heart.

This is why it took sometimes, the Madinan period rather than the infancy periods in Makka for Salah, Saum, etc and even women covering up to become obligatory parts of the total islamic tenets.



With that as the backgroud of my piece, please note that Muhammad and none of his followers, up till now claim that he was more than a human messenger, a prophet.

Allah says in the Qur'an that no prophet did he ever send, except such a prophet has his own enemy. Also, Muhammad (AS) said that Jesus and his mother did not have genie, jinn, shayatin created for them, based on the acceptance of the supplication made by Mary's mother when she was pregnant with her.

If therefore I take the Islamic viewpoint, which is what i take, Mary and her son, Jesus were never at anytime under the influence or control of satan/Devil.

You will see why the muslims hence see the herding of Jesus to the wilderness, and the three temptaions that ensued by the Devil as being events that we deem corrupted.



Muhammad (as) says of mankind, no one is born without a jinn/born with him. And that the jinn/devil runs in the body of the son of Adam as blood flows in the veins.

So the companions of the prophet asked him: Even you, Messenger of Allah? He said even me, except my own is tamed/controlled and made useless without any influence or power, by the Almighty Allah.

Now that I have set up these foundations of discussion, we should remember that the prophet was unhappy that after he had been made a prophet/Messenger, he thought revelation will flow through so that he would have messages to deliver, everytime.

When there was no revelation for a time, however long or short the time, he contemplated suicide. Each time that he wished to carry it out, Jibril came to intervene and strengthened him to be patient and await the decision of Allah.

These events of attempting suicide and the intervening of Jibril made his heart strong and his expectation fulfilled.

For a wise mind, this story should have been sufficient for anyone to follow him, the moment they hear it. Especially for people of our time.



Finally, Allah the Almighty knew his heart, that he was a man who had a soft heart, always willing to compromise and bring people together.

A proof of this is the treaty of Udabiyyah with the Quraishis of pagan Makka. They asked that his title, Prophet of Allah be erased.

He finally forced Ali bin Abi Talib, the Scribe to replace it with Muhammad bin Abdallah.

So it was not surprising that prehijra period in Makka, the very years of tests of courage and with islam having a singular message; Laa ilaha ilallah Muhammadanr Rasulullah.

The more powerful and larger in number Makkas were forcing him to compromise in his religious message. Telling him to join them in worshipping their idols for a short period of time.

So that they will enmasse become muslim and worship Allah the Almighty Creator in the greater period of time.

This was the reason Surah Kafirun was revealed that there should be no compromise.



Further, you will see that the verses that you deemed Satanic, occurred when the idol worhippers were around the prophet (AS).

You will also realise that the idols were mentioned by names and referred to as flying like the crane birds. The idolators of Makka bowed at the place in the Qur'an where the Muslims bowed as commanded in the Qur'an.

Immediately after that 'satanic verses," Jibril came down to intervene. The issue was again without allowing for compromise.

This was the singular reason for the hostility that led to the second minor Hijra to Ethiopia.

Finally that led to the final Hijra to Madina, because the condition never improved.



Will it therefore not be noticed that the event of the influence of satan was a temporary one. Even though as he never ceased to be an open enemy to Muhammad.

But he never was successful, in the end. This case reminds me of the case of Prophet Ayoub (Job). Shaitan had influence over his body, except his heart and tongue, the organs which he continued to praise God!

Just like Job was successful, in the end, we saw that Muhammad (AS) was successful. And at the conquer of Makka, all the idols were totally destroyed, including the three major idols not in the Kaaba; alUzza, al Lait, and al Manat!

Even the physical body manifestation of the one that manifested was killed. The names of all of the three big idols remain in the Qur'an because Allah the Almighty did not abrogate or ordered their removal.

The altimate victory therefore was for Muhammad over Satan.



A story i will like to tell you as i finish is that Muhammad made a gesture of catching something in one of the salah that he led in Madina.

After the Salah, a companion asked him what was it that he did, since he was their Professor. He told them that Shaitan came to want to interfer with his Salah. So he caught it by his forelock. Shaitan was subdued.

He was about to have it manifested and be tied to the pillar of the Masjid, except that he remembered the supplication of his brother Solomon, who asked Allah not to make any human after him have the same power over things as he did.

Muhammad then said that he ordered that they let Shaitan go, unmanifested, but rendered humiliated.

He said if it was not that prayer of Solomon, Shaitan would have been made a play being, humiliated by the children of Madina.

If I can still remember anything about christianity.

Christianity is supposed to mean Christ-like in other words living like christ.

Christianity from what I know is supposed to be all about love. Not money.

John 13:34 ¶A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
John 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
John 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
John 15:17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.
Romans 12:10 Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;
Romans 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
1 John 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
1 John 3:23 ¶ And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

@okija_juju
Execellent summary

@olabowale
The Gospel of Jesus Christ preaches that we should love and worship God the father. Even though it is mentioned in the bible that Jesus Christ is worthy of worship because God is well pleased in him, there was never a direct commandment to worship Jesus in the bible. I do agree with you a lot of christians don't understand or practise christianity ( Like wise muslims too). as christians we are not supposed to worship christ, we only strive to obey his teachings which are based purely on loved. (Jesus christ never taught us to worship him). His gospel was that of Love, humility and peace. come to think about it if mankind had real genuine love for itself, the world would be a much better place to live in. This i believe is the true gospel of Jesus. I admit some of our churches have led us astray.

@KunleOshob:

@olabowale
The Gospel of Jesus Christ preaches that we should love and worship God the father. Even though it is mentioned in the bible that Jesus Christ is worthy of worship because God is well pleased in him, there was never a direct commandment to worship Jesus in the bible. I do agree with you a lot of christians don't understand or practise christianity ( Like wise muslims too). as christians we are not supposed to worship christ, we only strive to obey his teachings which are based purely on loved. (Jesus christ never taught us to worship him). His gospel was that of Love, humility and peace. come to think about it if mankind had real genuine love for itself, the world would be a much better place to live in. This i believe is the true gospel of Jesus. I admit some of our churches have led us astray.

Like wise Muslims too? Whats that supposed to mean? Please explain so that we are not interpreting your statement. We can't read minds you know.

When i look at the Buhhdists and its Dalil Lamah leadership, they practiced the same thing; Love, humility and peace (none violence). Maybe Christianity is a form of this? Its surprising that they are closer to the fulfilment of turning the other cheek, the supposed Christ stament than the Christians who proclaim their followership of him.

You only have to look how they have handled their condition of oppression in the hands of the chinese. You will think the Hindu of India will support them, but the government is making their mere speaking out difficult.

Finally, what are you going to do about it that you are now realising that the bible, if it talks about worshipping Jesus or calling him god, what it has done is to introduce multiple gods into your religion.

If you claim that you worship only the father god, then, you have consciously chosen and rejected verses as they please you.

If you take this action, then imagine what those people who wanted to make jesus look good without understanding the miracle wrought by God on him have done?

Either way, the foundmental is wrong, therefore what ever path we personally take will be wrong, because it is a derivative of the foundation.

The foundation is more important than the walls that we erect on it. The wall will not remain a wall in truth for long if the foundation is not good. I foundation will remain regardless even when the wall is bad or not even erected or collapsed.

Qur'an and sunnah; Islam is good foundation, while the muslims are mere walls. Bible; Christianity or judaism is a corrupted or inadequate foundation.

The christians or Jews being it wall can only be cosmetically okay for long. But in reality will not be good before God Almighty the "Jealous God Who has and don't want any partner!"

What does it mean to be christ like? What is Christ? Really, what does Christ mean? Knowing what Christ really means how then can someone become christ like?

Pastor AIO:

What does it mean to be christ like? What is Christ? Really, what does Christ mean? Knowing what Christ really means how then can someone become christ like?

With all these questions, i think you should change your name from Pastor.

onyinye2:

With all these questions, i think you should change your name from Pastor.

The Question.

A Question is a rhetorical device that can be used for a number of purposes.
a) It can be used as a means of acquiring information from a person who will answer the question.
b) It can also be used as a rhetorical advice to open up a subject for discussion or for further perusal
c) It can also be used rhetorically as an answer to a previous question.
d) It can even be used as a form of yabis. eg. Are you Mad?

There are further uses of questions but if the above do not suffice for you then I'll consider changing my name from Pastor.

@olabowale
when i said likewise muslims too, i meant a lot of muslims don't understand or practise Islam, for instance going by the Qu'ran which you love quoting so much Jesus is the greatest of the prophets even greater than your mohamed. How come muslims don't acknowledge him so?? In response to your other allegation, kindly quote the bible passage were christians were directed to worship Jesus. As i told you earlier, i acknowledge the fact that christianity today is not being practised properly as taught by Christ or the apostles, that is why i have gone back to my bible to study what true christianity is. And the fact that christian leaders have mis-led christians does not mean one should now adopt an a so highly adulterated version of christianity that is almost unrecognisable (Islam) instead of the true gospel of Jesus christ as is spelt out in the holy book.

@KUnleOshob:

@olabowale
when i said likewise muslims too, i meant a lot of muslims don't understand or practise Islam, for instance going by the Qu'ran which you love quoting so much Jesus is the greatest of the prophets even greater than your mohamed. How come muslims don't acknowledge him so??

Jesus is the greatest of prophets from the Children of Israel, period! Muhammad is not from the Children of israel.

More over Surah Saffa, verse 6 speaks aout Jesus being a prophet whose role was to inform his people, the children of israel that there is a future prophet/messenger coming, whose name is Ahmad!

Further the Surah Al Imran speaks about the prophets swearing to an oath before God that they will support the messenger of Gos, if he were to come while they were alive.

This messenger was Muhammad. Jesus was one of th prophets who swore in this oath of support. How can he Jesus therefore be greter than Muhammad? Imposible!

The Yorubas say Akeyinde gba agba lowo aburo. Yet the aburo is Taiye who was born before the Keyinde the elder!

In response to your other allegation, kindly quote the bible passage were christians were directed to worship Jesus. As i told you earlier, i acknowledge the fact that christianity today is not being practised properly as taught by Christ or the apostles, that is why i have gone back to my bible to study what true christianity is. And the fact that christian leaders have mis-led christians does not mean one should now adopt an a so highly adulterated version of christianity that is almost unrecognisable (Islam) instead of the true gospel of Jesus christ as is spelt out in the holy book.

What do the Buhhdists, or the Hindus do with their gods, except that each worship the god that is domain to his religion. The name of Buhhdist god is Buhhda.

Whats your God name? Who do you worship? Do you not worship god the father, Jehovah or yahweh?

Do you not worship god the holy spirit/ghost, without a name like (Yahweh or jehova for father god)? And do you not worship god the son, Jesus?

Is it not in the bible that Jesus is referred to in a verse or verses as god? In another set of verses as lord? Now tell me what is a god, except that he is worshipped by those who calls him god?

Don't the onishango worship Shango? What about the Aborishas, arent the worshippers of orisha? What about the oloyas, are they not worshipping Oya?


If you deny that you do not worship Jesus, then i will ask what kinda god is he, that you do not worship him?

Is it not true that you praise him. Thank him? Supplicate or pray to him? Even the catholics pray to his mother! I have business associate whose signature is "Its time to praise him; thank you Jesus!"

Now if I get for you Biblical verses where the christians have been passing up jesus as god or lord, whereby he jesus from the same bible says that God and lord is One and he is above him, Marck 12 verse 29, what will you do?



Finally, I hear some of the christians from nairaland and they are not isolated in this belief that the God of Abraham is jesus himself as he appeared to him when he delivered the news of the birth of Isaac to sarah.

Jesus was also Melchezdek, the god, king of salem. Davidylan has just used that idea to argue just this past week.

The same Jesus who some claimed as god and Angel who wrestled with Jacob! Now tell me, what are we muslims supposed to take from you?



Its funny tht you could coyly claim Islam to be a form of christianity! How? Please explain it? In Surah Al Maidah, Allah says that Jesus was no more than a prophet, a favor of word of commanded on his mother Mary.

Then Allah the Almighty says don't you see how he and his mother behaved like humans: The ate hungrily when overcame by hunger? In reality, Islam and Christianity are not compartable.

What do the Buhhdists, or the Hindus do with their gods, except that each worship the god that is domain to his religion. The name of Buhhdist god is Buhhda.

Whats your God name? Who do you worship? Do you not worship god the father, Jehovah or yahweh?

Do you not worship god the holy spirit/ghost, without a name like (Yahweh or jehova for father god)? And do you not worship god the son, Jesus?

Is it not in the bible that Jesus is referred to in a verse or verses as god? In another set of verses as lord? Now tell me what is a god, except that he is worshipped by those who calls him god?

Don't the onishango worship Shango? What about the Aborishas, arent the worshippers of orisha? What about the oloyas, are they not worshipping Oya?

So what should the religion be called? Jehovahism? Or Yahwehity? Christians are so called because they are followers of Christ.

What is Christ? Christ is greek for messiah which in hebrew means the anointed one, or the chosen one. In the same bible that word messiah is used for a number of other characters. King Saul was a christ, and so was king David. They were all anointed and therefore messiahs. Even a rock was anointed in the bible and it is called Bethel which means the house of God.

Now I have stated before that the human life is an appropriated thing. We have been chosen to live the lives that we are to live. To adhere to and follow such appropriation is to be a christian. And such is the only true worship that is acceptable to God.

If you deny that you do not worship Jesus, then i will ask what kind of god is he, that you do not worship him?

Let me shock you further and tell you that I too am a god, as is every christian. You too are potentially a god. For we all share in divine nature and divinity is a part of us. There are many divinities, ie beings partaking of divine nature. That is not to claim equality with God but rather to say that we share in common certain aspects of God's essence.

If the above is pure and genuine religion, as it is recorded in james 1;27, then i am very certain therefore, that believe in Trinity or anything in its form, etc, is not essential to be in pure and genuine religion.

YET AGAIN YOU ADD YOUR OWN BELIEF IN IT. WHAT DOES WHAT KUNLE SAID HAVE TO DO WITH TRINITY. HOW CAN A BELIEF IN TRUE RELIGION BE DIFFERENT FROM TRINITY OR DID YOU NOT READ THE QUOTE AGAIN? DID IT MENTION THAT THE TRINITY IS NOT A PART OF TRUE RELIGION.

IF YOU TRULY WANT US TO VISIT GENUINITY IN RELIGION WE CAN LOOK AT THE FACT THAT WOMEN ARE BLAMED FOR THE SINS OF MEN, HOW GENUINE IS THAT?
OR IS IT THAT WOMEN ARE NOT PROMISED ANYTHING IN HEAVEN, BUT ARE INFACT TOLD THAT THEY WILL BE IN HELL?
OR IS IT THAT BLACKS ARE CURSED AND CONDEMNED TO HELL?
AREN'T YOU A BLACK MAN? WHY ARE YOU WORSHIPPING A GOD THAT CONDEMNS YOU ALREADY NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO OR HOW GOOD YOU ARE, YOU ARE CONDEMNED BY THE COLOUR OF YOUR SKIN?

It is Qur'an, and, not Koran. As Omo Yoruba, you should know better. Now, we should not forget that the induction of total prohibition of consumption of alcoholic drinks and intosticants, did not come in one sweep move.

yet what god prohibits on earth he permits in heaven. So doesn't that mean that in heaven you will be able to murder, lie, and the virgins promised to men (seeing that women are not mentioned to make it to heaven) will run around naked, and you don't have to wash your privates before praying or you will be permitted to yawn and all. abi.

What kind of god permits sin in heaven but not on earth?
This is allah's plan "if you don't sin in earth, you will be permitted to sin in heaven"

With that as the backgroud of my piece, please note that Muhammad and none of his followers, up till now claim that he was more than a human messenger, a prophet

the devil can claim to be your best friend o. don't forget he was able to deceive adam and eve.

Allah says in the Qur'an that no prophet did he ever send, except such a prophet has his own enemy. Also, Muhammad (AS) said that Jesus and his mother did not have genie, jinn, shayatin created for them, based on the acceptance of the supplication made by Mary's mother when she was pregnant with her.

you're getting close to the immaculate conception, one more reason why i still say muhamad copied from the christian and jewish religion.

If therefore I take the Islamic viewpoint, which is what i take, Mary and her son, Jesus were never at anytime under the influence or control of satan/Devil.

You will see why the muslims hence see the herding of Jesus to the wilderness, and the three temptaions that ensued by the Devil as being events that we deem corrupted

yet never in the Bible did it mention Jesus being under control of the devil. He didn't go to the wildreness on the prompting of the devil, he went there to fast. at the end of his fasting the devil attempted to tempt him and Jesus triumphed as the true Son of God that he is.

Muhammad (as) says of mankind, no one is born without a jinn/born with him. And that the jinn/devil runs in the body of the son of Adam as blood flows in the veins.

if Jesus was a mere man, this shouldn't be an exception for him. yet again proving his divinity.

So the companions of the prophet asked him: Even you, Messenger of Allah? He said even me, except my own is tamed/controlled and made useless without any influence or power, by the Almighty Allah.

yet he still sinned and was still under the control of the devil when he inserted that the three daughters of allah can be worshipped too and used as intercessors.

For a wise mind, this story should have been sufficient for anyone to follow him, the moment they hear it. Especially for people of our time.

For a wise mind this story would show just how out of line of the prophets that muhamad is. never did any of the prophets try to commit a sin because they didn't receive a revelation when they wanted to, they submitted to the will of God and never questioned why they didn't receive revelation at a time they wanted to.

A proof of this is the treaty of Udabiyyah with the Quraishis of pagan Makka. They asked that his title, Prophet of Allah be erased.

He finally forced Ali bin Abi Talib, the Scribe to replace it with Muhammad bin Abdallah.

never once did any of the prophets of old try to comprise the will of God. God's will does not conform to man's will. Basically here allah bowed down to the quraysh.

The more powerful and larger in number Makkas were forcing him to compromise in his religious message. Telling him to join them in worshipping their idols for a short period of time.

So that they will enmasse become muslim and worship Allah the Almighty Creator in the greater period of time.

This was the reason Surah Kafirun was revealed that there should be no compromise.

and yet he already did.

Further, you will see that the verses that you deemed Satanic, occurred when the idol worhippers were around the prophet (AS).

You will also realise that the idols were mentioned by names and referred to as flying like the crane birds. The idolators of Makka bowed at the place in the Qur'an where the Muslims bowed as commanded in the Qur'an.

Immediately after that 'satanic verses," Jibril came down to intervene. The issue was again without allowing for compromise.

This was the singular reason for the hostility that led to the second minor Hijra to Ethiopia.

Finally that led to the final Hijra to Madina, because the condition never improved

Never did satan succeed over any of the prophets of old. never did satan deceive a prophet of old to insert something against God in a book that is supposed to contain God's words. Infact to even suggest that is to suggest that satan can have power over God's word.

Will it therefore not be noticed that the event of the influence of satan was a temporary one. Even though as he never ceased to be an open enemy to Muhammad.

When it comes to God's word satan should not even have any bit of influence, unless God is not all powerful in his word.

Even the physical body manifestation of the one that manifested was killed. The names of all of the three big idols remain in the Qur'an because Allah the Almighty did not abrogate or ordered their removal.

first of all you have to educate me on the physical manifestation of one of these daughters especially seeing that they were mere idols and to suggest a physical manifestation is to suggest that they had some sort of power, how could they when they were man made idols, or did man breathe air into them?
second let's talk about the abrogation from allah. how untruthful is allah that even he cannot stay true to a word he says. how can he be God when he lies also. H esimply changes his mind and undoes what he does. To suggest that God changes is to suggest that God is limited to time, because with time comes change. God is not limited to time and space as you and i are.
But hey maybe God will change his mind and decide that he has a SOn afterall and that all muslims should become Catholics.
If you say that it is impossible for allah to do so, you will be a liar because the quran states that allah can abrogate whatever he wants whenever he wants because he is allah and can do that.
That sounds like a notion of a mangod to me. It sounds like what man would imagine of God and not what God actually is.

So if allah cannot stay true to a word he has spoken how does he expect his subjects to stay true. If the perfect cannot be truthful how can the imperfect be truthful.

A story i will like to tell you as i finish is that Muhammad made a gesture of catching something in one of the salah that he led in Madina.

After the Salah, a companion asked him what was it that he did, since he was their Professor. He told them that Shaitan came to want to interfer with his Salah. So he caught it by his forelock. Shaitan was subdued.

He was about to have it manifested and be tied to the pillar of the Masjid, except that he remembered the supplication of his brother Solomon, who asked Allah not to make any human after him have the same power over things as he did.

Muhammad then said that he ordered that they let Shaitan go, unmanifested, but rendered humiliated.

He said if it was not that prayer of Solomon, Shaitan would have been made a play being, humiliated by the children of Madina.

haha this is so laughable, if muhamad had shaitan in his power why didn't he just kill him.

~Lady~:

YET AGAIN YOU ADD YOUR OWN BELIEF IN IT. WHAT DOES WHAT KUNLE SAID HAVE TO DO WITH TRINITY. HOW CAN A BELIEF IN TRUE RELIGION BE DIFFERENT FROM TRINITY OR DID YOU NOT READ THE QUOTE AGAIN? DID IT MENTION THAT THE TRINITY IS NOT A PART OF TRUE RELIGION.

IF YOU TRULY WANT US TO VISIT GENUINITY IN RELIGION WE CAN LOOK AT THE FACT THAT WOMEN ARE BLAMED FOR THE SINS OF MEN, HOW GENUINE IS THAT?
OR IS IT THAT WOMEN ARE NOT PROMISED ANYTHING IN HEAVEN, BUT ARE INFACT TOLD THAT THEY WILL BE IN HELL?
OR IS IT THAT BLACKS ARE CURSED AND CONDEMNED TO HELL?
AREN'T YOU A BLACK MAN? WHY ARE YOU WORSHIPPING A GOD THAT CONDEMNS YOU ALREADY NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO OR HOW GOOD YOU ARE, YOU ARE CONDEMNED BY THE COLOUR OF YOUR SKIN?

Yee paripa!! Lady abeg give us citations because these we will have to look into a bit deeper. Are black people really condemned to hell in the koran?

The feeling that I get from quran and reading brother Olabowale's post is that the whole religion is a reaction towards christianity, like it defines itself by contrasting itself to christianity. Hence the consistent battering on about trinity and the oneness of God. It seems that if there was no christianity then Islam wouldn't know what to do with itself.

Pastor AIO:

Yee paripa!! Lady abeg give us citations because these we will have to look into a bit deeper. Are black people really condemned to hell in the koran?

The feeling that I get from quran and reading brother Olabowale's post is that the whole religion is a reaction towards christianity, like it defines itself by contrasting itself to christianity. Hence the consistent battering on about trinity and the oneness of God. It seems that if there was no christianity then Islam wouldn't know what to do with itself.

i thought i was the only one who noticed.

hmm what fine examples of true christians one finds here. makes me sick

what is the first commandment? I'm only asking because your post seems to imply that you worship Jesus

Jesus is not a mortal as you view him. Thanks. Now go learn the truth and stop listening to the man that condemns women for the wrong done them.

Yee paripa!!  Lady abeg give us citations because these we will have to look into a bit deeper.  Are black people really condemned to hell in the koran?

Honestly I was contemplating letting you and david know of a book that I am reading.
I know how you two feel about catholics bur trust me you want to read this book.

If you both want I can send you the title of the book to your e-mails and you can read it. It not only talks about what i mentioned above but addresses a lot of issues dealing with islam and it truly shows that muhamad copied from Christianity and Judaism.

The feeling that I get from quran and reading brother Olabowale's post is that the whole religion is a reaction towards christianity, like it defines itself by contrasting itself to christianity.  Hence the consistent battering on about trinity and the oneness of God.   It seems that if there was no christianity then Islam  wouldn't know what to do with itself

It is true, Islam cannot address an issue with Jesus unless it comes from the Gospel. Islam is heavily reliant on Christianity.

I will have to get you the source for black people. I don't have the books with me on campus.

@~Lady~:

haha this is so laughable, if muhamad had shaitan in his power why didn't he just kill him.

Read the story, again. And again. maybe you will get the reason Shaitan was not made manifested, as a physical being. Let me help you; remember Solomon. Thats the hint.

However laughable, its head and shoulders more believeable than your story about a 'dead' man going into the hell fire to fight death and won. Yet everyone of you Christians, after believing this tale of a whopper will die.

And there is no need for Shaitan to die, unless and until there is no single child of Adam on earth, any longer. Hello. I am looking forward hearing from you, soon.

Read the story, again. And again. maybe you will get the reason Shaitan was not made manifested, as a physical being. Let me help you; remember Solomon. Thats the hint

wait a minute so muhamad now had the power to make shaitan manifested as a human being?
how did i even miss that one.

However laughable, its head and shoulders more believeable than your story about a 'dead' man going into the hell fire to fight death and won. Yet everyone of you Christians, after believing this tale of a whopper will die.

well if i believe in allah, i will certainly go to hell, one because i am black, two because i am a woman and i lead men to sin. so i guess there's no hope for me wither way huh. no thanks I will stay in love.

and why didn't you comment on everything else that i wrote.

@~Lady~:

first of all you have to educate me on the physical manifestation of one of these daughters especially seeing that they were mere idols and to suggest a physical manifestation is to suggest that they had some sort of power, how could they when they were man made idols, or did man breathe air into them?

How did the sticks of the magicians of Egypt became and looked like snake to all, including Moses? Now that should be sufficient as an answer for you. I will leave the miracles of Jesus alone, until I need to use any of it as an ace card.

second let's talk about the abrogation from allah. how untruthful is allah that even he cannot stay true to a word he says. how can he be God when he lies also. H esimply changes his mind and undoes what he does. To suggest that God changes is to suggest that God is limited to time, because with time comes change. God is not limited to time and space as you and i are.

And how do you stop an alcoholic or sustance abuser to stop, except you make them go through 12 steps program. It is a gradual process. No one stops cold turkey. I will also leave it alone so that you can go out and make a research for yourself.

But hey maybe God will change his mind and decide that he has a SOn afterall and that all muslims should become Catholics.
If you say that it is impossible for allah to do so, you will be a liar because the quran states that allah can abrogate whatever he wants whenever he wants because he is allah and can do that.

First God the Almighty Allah says in many verses and Chapter 112 speaks that His name is Allah. Then He says that He begets none. And then He says He was not begottened. How you therefore got your begotten son beats every rational mind.

Finally, the Al Qur'an is complete and the chapter and opportunity of any Messenger or even a prophet is closed with Muhammad. All your suppositions are just that. Allah has spoken.

That sounds like a notion of a mangod to me. It sounds like what man would imagine of God and not what God actually is.

So how do you take up Jesus then, when he even said this Allah who you think is mangod is his Lord God? Read Mark 12 Verse 29, again. Its from the mouth of Jesus, directly. Thats what your Bible says about it. Unless the Bible is skiddish about this verse, too.

So if allah cannot stay true to a word he has spoken how does he expect his subjects to stay true. If the perfect cannot be truthful how can the imperfect be truthful.

In all that you said you will appreciate that you did not give any example to buttress your point. In my abrogation, I gave the example of intosticants; alcohol to illustrate how it was allowed at the beginning. Then as their faith increases, it was frowned upon. Then finally as their faith matured and unshakeable, it was forbidden. Think about it. Then present your own example. Am waiting.

When it comes to God's word satan should not even have any bit of influence, unless God is not all powerful in his word.

One would have to wonder how satan was able to drive your own god into the wilderness and then put him under temptations 3 times, afterwards? That figures. lol. Hey baby, are you alright?

Never did satan succeed over any of the prophets of old. never did satan deceive a prophet of old to insert something against God in a book that is supposed to contain God's words. Infact to even suggest that is to suggest that satan can have power over God's word.

Temporary over a prophet's tongue. And finally he was victorious. The first was in Makka. The victory was demostrated in Madina era. Remember the humiliation that satan suffered because he was making effort to distract the prophet in the salah. Thats victory, babe.

I will be back later. Have to run.