Pastor Olu T, enough with this scoffers. They read where someone received the Holy spirit and was then baptised and they are still arguing that water baptism refers to being born again. It is really laughable. Scripture clearly shows which activity happened first.

There's no need to argue. Those who need to learn and be great will. Water sprinkling ni, Father church ko

mba emeka: Pastor Olu T, enough with this scoffers. They read where someone received the Holy spirit and was then baptised and they are still arguing that water baptism refers to being born again. It is really laughable. Scripture clearly shows which activity happened first.

There's no need to argue. Those who need to learn and be great will. Water sprinkling ni, Father church ko

My bro I just dont understand o, its not just Catholics bt all forms of religion, its like modern day "zombies" where people are ready to die for their believes no matter what.

I remember speaking to a woman several years ago showing her scriptures which she cant refute, after everything she said no matter what she would die a catholic just as francisTony is doing right now. Also a religion besides me their prayers everyday is that nothing should ever take them out of that religion n God should kill them in that religion They dont care about salvation or where they spend eternity, their own is that they will die Catholics, I just dont understand its like a cult or something?

italo: To be born again is to be baptized (born of water and Spirit)...shikena.

It is not to go in front of the "church" and say "bla bla"

how hard is it for a roman catholic to comprehend the words of Christ.

italo: To be born again is to be baptized (born of water and Spirit)...shikena.

It is not to go in front of the "church" and say "bla bla"

says Italo, not Jesus.

italo: To be born again is to be baptized (born of water and Spirit)...shikena.

It is not to go in front of the "church" and say "bla bla"

is this the rcc's definition of baptism?

State how (water) baptism is that of the Spirit.

Pastor Olu T:

My bro I just dont understand o, its not just Catholics bt all forms of religion, its like modern day "zombies" where people are ready to die for their believes no matter what.

I remember speaking to a woman several years ago showing her scriptures which she cant refute, after everything she said no matter what she would die a catholic just as francisTony is doing right now. Also a religion besides me their prayers everyday is that nothing should ever take them out of that religion n God should kill them in that religion They dont care about salvation or where they spend eternity, their own is that they will die Catholics, I just dont understand its like a cult or something?

so which church do you attend?

Kamsy10:

so which church do you attend?

This is exactly my point, church n religion, so if I tell u my church u will be able to classify me. Anyways just see me as a follower of Christ.

Pastor Olu T:

This is exactly my point, church n religion, so if I tell u my church u will be able to classify me. Anyways just see me as a follower of Christ.

Seems you're saying its better not to carry any church on one's head like gala?(including your church) but follow Christ
That'll be fair enough

The one I dont buy into is someone coming to nl say catholic church is this and that while his own church is ......
which is why I always ask which church is better so we can all join the heaven bound church

Born again was clearly defined by Jesus

1 born by water-baptism

2 born by the spirit

What is so difficult to understand here? Where does it describe the verbal proclamation of faith as been born again? Even right from the early years of christianity baptism has always been synonymous with born againism.it was only after the advent of pentecostalism almost two millenium later that the idea of verbal proclamation of faith(done daily in catholic chhurch) was taken as been born again.

Born againism in the words of the church fathers

ST. JUSTIN MARTYR (inter A.D. 148-155)

Whoever is convinced and believes that what they are taught and told by us is the truth, and professes to be able to live accordingly, is instructed to pray and to beseech God in fasting for the remission of their former sins, while we pray and fast with them. Then they are led by us to a place where there is water; and there they are reborn in the same kind of rebirth in which we ourselves were reborn: In the name of God, the Lord and Father of all, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they receive the washing with water. For Christ said, "Unless you be reborn, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." ...The reason for doing this, we have learned from the Apostles. (The First Apology 61)

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ST. THEOPHILUS OF ANTIOCH (c. A.D. 181)

Moreover, those things which were created from the waters were blessed by God, so that this might also be a sign that men would at a future time receive repentance and remission of sins through water and the bath of regeneration -- all who proceed to the truth and are born again and receive a blessing from God. (To Autolycus 2:16)

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ST. IRENAEUS (c. A.D. 190)

"And [Naaman] dipped himself...seven times in the Jordan" [2 Kings 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: "Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Fragment 34)

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TERTULLIAN (inter A.D. 200-206)

A treatise on our sacrament of water, by which the sins of our earlier blindness are washed away and we are released for eternal life will not be superfluous.....taking away death by the washing away of sins. The guilt being removed, the penalty, of course, is also removed.....Baptism is itself a corporal act by which we are plunged in water, while its effect is spiritual, in that we are freed from sins. (On Baptism 1:1; 5:6; 7:2)

...no one can attain salvation without Baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says: "Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life." (On Baptism 12:1)

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ST. CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA (ante A.D. 202)

When we are baptized, we are enlightened. Being enlightened, we are adopted as sons. Adopted as sons, we are made perfect. Made perfect, we become immortal...."and sons all of the Most High" [Psalm 82:6]. This work is variously called grace, illumination, perfection, and washing. It is a washing by which we are cleansed of sins; a gift of grace by which the punishments due our sins are remitted; an illumination by which we behold that holy light of salvation -- that is, by which we see God clearly; and we call that perfection which leaves nothing lacking. Indeed, if a man know God, what more does he need? Certainly it were out of place to call that which is not complete a true gift of God's grace. Because God is perfect, the gifts He bestows are perfect. (The Instructor of Children 1:6:26:1)

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RECOGNITIONS OF CLEMENT (c. A.D. 221)

But you will perhaps say, "What does the baptism of water contribute toward the worship of God?" In the first place, because that which has pleased God is fulfilled. In the second place, because when you are regenerated and born again of water and of God, the frailty of your former birth, which you have through men, is cut off, and so ...you shall be able to attain salvation; but otherwise it is impossible. For thus has the true Prophet [Jesus] testified to us with an oath: "Verily, I say to you, that unless a man is born again of water....he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Recognitions 6:9)

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ORIGEN (post A.D. 244)

Formerly there was Baptism, in an obscure way....now, however, in full view, there is regeneration in water and in the Holy Spirit. Formerly, in an obscure way, there was manna for food; now, however, in full view, there is the true food, the flesh of the Word of God as He Himself says: "My flesh is truly food, and My blood is truly drink" [John 6:55]. (Homilies on Numbers 7:2)

The Church received from the Apostles the tradition of giving Baptism even to infants. For the Apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of divine mysteries, knew that there is in everyone the innate stains of sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit. (Commentaries on Romans 5:9)

Such a shame again. Not a tad bit of scripture posted.

Romans 10 : 9-10. (If I was using a computer I would have pasted the scriptures here for all to see). A simple heart felt study of the bible never hurt nobody.

Ephesians 5:26. John the Baptist also said JESUS will baptise people in fire. Why not burn people up? Jokers!

1 Peter 1:23.

The scriptures are replete with what Jesus said and meant. If PAUL or PETER didn't understand JESUS then I can't trust Irenaus or any other name you mentioned to. It is that simple.

Water baptism isn't irrelevant. Where does it factor in? When the person has already been borne again. Period.

Kamsy10:

Seems you're saying its better not to carry any church on one's head like gala?(including your church) but follow Christ
That'll be fair enough

The one I dont buy into is someone coming to nl say catholic church is this and that while his own church is ......
which is why I always ask which church is better so we can all join the heaven bound church

Why should it always be about individual churches? Christ never came to die for any individual church bt his body (the universal church which is made up of individual xtians). But unfortunately people would rather uphold n fight for their individual church than Christ, whereby most of the church is alien to Christ. My problem has always been about practices against the clear teaches of Christ n never individuals, in fact I relate with people from all walks, bt when it comes to the truth I dont mince word.

chukwudi44: Born again was clearly defined by Jesus

1 born by water-baptism

2 born by the spirit

What is so difficult to understand here? Where does it describe the verbal proclamation of faith as been born again? Even right from the early years of christianity baptism has always been synonymous with born againism.it was only after the advent of pentecostalism almost two millenium later that the idea of verbal proclamation of faith(done daily in catholic chhurch) was taken as been born again.

Pls simply state where it states being born by water equals water baptism?

mba emeka: Such a shame again. Not a tad bit of scripture posted.

Romans 10 : 9-10. (If I was using a computer I would have pasted the scriptures here for all to see). A simple heart felt study of the bible never hurt nobody.

Ephesians 5:26. John the Baptist also said JESUS will baptise people in fire. Why not burn people up? Jokers!

1 Peter 1:23.

The scriptures are replete with what Jesus said and meant. If PAUL or PETER didn't understand JESUS then I can't trust Irenaus or any other name you mentioned to. It is that simple.

Water baptism isn't irrelevant. Where does it factor in? When the person has already been borne again. Period.

the problem is not scripture rather it is interpretation of scripture.We atre differing in our interpretaion of Jesus's discussion with Nicodemus.IF you are not mischievous you would have know that was taken from the scriptures.We read the writings of John and the rest of the apostles because we know they were with Jesus and learnt from him.likewise Ireneaus and the rest of them met the Apostles and learnt directly from the Apostles.their writings are not to be taken with a pinch of salt.I would take thw words of Ireneaus who met the Apostles over the words of Kumuyi,Oyedepo,Kenneth hagin

Pastor Olu T:

Pls simply state where it states being born by water equals water baptism?

that verse was explicit as it was not implied."born of water" simply means been renewed through water and whic other christian rite do you know of that is performed by water?

That salvations saves a person is also supported by Peter in this verse


1 Peter 3:20-21

English Standard Version (ESV)


20 because[a] they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. 21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

i Pity folks who say baptism is not necesary.Why on earth do you think Jesus was baptised?

chukwudi44:

that verse was explicit as it was not implied."born of water" simply means been renewed through water and whic other christian rite do you know of that is performed by water?

That salvations saves a person is also supported by Peter in this verse


1 Peter 3:20-21

English Standard Version (ESV)


20 because[a] they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. 21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

i Pity folks who say baptism is not necesary.Why on earth do you think Jesus was baptised?

Cool down dont rush urself, what do u understand by baptism, every baptism equals water baptism?

NB Dont be too impulsive, I never said I dont believe in water baptism or not importan, we are only trying to explain what bornagain means.

chukwudi44:
the problem is not scripture rather it is interpretation of scripture.We atre differing in our interpretaion of Jesus's discussion with Nicodemus.IF you are not mischievous you would have know that was taken from the scriptures.We read the writings of John and the rest of the apostles because we know they were with Jesus and learnt from him.likewise Ireneaus and the rest of them met the Apostles and learnt directly from the Apostles.their writings are not to be taken with a pinch of salt.I would take thw words of Ireneaus who met the Apostles over the words of Kumuyi,Oyedepo,Kenneth hagin

I know what Jesus said. The question is do you know what he meant? He could not have meant baptism. Nicodemus would have understood because from Jesus next words Nicodemus didn't.

John the Baptist once said I baptise with water but one who comes after me will baptise with fire. What did it mean? Physical fire? Of course no.

1 Peter 1:23 clearly says being born again by the word of God . . . Paul in his letter to the Ephesians said the church is washed by water by the word. . . .

Jesus said to his disciples you are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Remember that he also had baptised them (because scripture says he Baptised many himself). So why didn't he say they were clean through the water? Well, that's because the thing that can make a man clean is the word.

Paul stated " if a man believes in his heart that Jesus is lord and confesses with his mouth his lordship such a person is SAVED". Not going to be but already is.

This should not be an area of contention. I believe in water baptism but it doesn't come before the new birth. Water baptism is an outward showing. A sacrament if you please.

Pastor Olu T:

Cool down dont rush urself, what do u understand by baptism, every baptism equals water baptism?

NB Dont be too impulsive, I never said I dont believe in water baptism or not importan, we are only trying to explain what bornagain means.

The baptism described above is water baptism except you want to become mischiievous in your interpretation

mba emeka:

I know what Jesus said. The question is do you know what he meant? He could not have meant baptism. Nicodemus would have understood because from Jesus next words Nicodemus didn't.

John the Baptist once said I baptise with water but one who comes after me will baptise with fire. What did it mean? Physical fire? Of course no.

1 Peter 1:23 clearly says being born again by the word of God . . . Paul in his letter to the Ephesians said the church is washed by water by the word. . . .

Jesus said to his disciples you are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Remember that he also had baptised them (because scripture says he Baptised many himself). So why didn't he say they were clean through the water? Well, that's because the thing that can make a man clean is the word.

Paul stated " if a man believes in his heart that Jesus is lord and confesses with his mouth his lordship such a person is SAVED". Not going to be but already is.

This should not be an area of contention. I believe in water baptism but it doesn't come before the new birth. Water baptism is an outward showing. A sacrament if you please.

Tis is your own version of born againism which came almost 2000 years after the birth of Jesus,it was never taught by the church fathers or even the protestant fathers.This simply a new generation teaching!! If I were to chose I would take the words of those who were privileged to have heard from the apostles directly or learnt directly from those who met the Apostles.

chukwudi44:

The baptism described above is water baptism except you want to become mischiievous in your interpretation

Pls if u want this discussion to continue dont just be assuming. One unique thing about the scripture is that it explains itself, from one scripture u can get a whole lot which supports or prove it. Now From that John 3:3-5, Jesus never mentioned water baptism, now u say it is n would say nothing on that for now. What I simply ask is from that John show me scriptures which explicitly relate water baptism to being born again.

When u do this I will do the same where it explicitly says we are born again, cleansed, washed, sanctify, made whole by the word to the saving of our souls.

NB Pls dont quote random scriptures for me bt stick to what we are discussing the way its agreed.

Pastor Olu T:

Pls if u want this discussion to continue dont just be assuming. One unique thing about the scripture is that it explains itself, from one scripture u can get a whole lot which supports or prove it. Now From that John 3:3-5, Jesus never mentioned water baptism, now u say it is n would say nothing on that for now. What I simply ask is from that John show me scriptures which explicitly relate water baptism to being born again.

When u do this I will do the same where it explicitly says we are born again, cleansed, washed, sanctify, made whole by the word to the saving of our souls.

NB Pls dont quote random scriptures for me bt stick to what we are discussing the way its agreed.

I am not assuming and I have given you scriptures to back my interpretation if you like call it random scriptures because it does not suit your interpretation

chukwudi44:
Tis is your own version of born againism which came almost 2000 years after the birth of Jesus,it was never taught by the church fathers or even the protestant fathers.This simply a new generation teaching!! If I were to chose I would take the words of those who were privileged to have heard from the apostles directly or learnt directly from those who met the Apostles.

now this is my problem with you. I have quoted Romans. I have quoted Ephesians. I have quoted Peter. Yet you are resolved to peddling the falsity that what I am showing you from the scriptures came 2000 years later.

I prefer to believe PAUL and PETER than any name whose stories verisimilitude I cannot ascertain.

Coming to 1 Peter 3:19-22. Peter said baptism which saves you. He didn't end there. He explained further by saying not just merely cleaning you of dirt or sin but by you accepting the lordship of Jesus christ. This is from the same Peter that said we are born again by the incorruptible word of God.

if you will be honest and bereft of religious bias can you explain why Nicodemus was surprised when Jesus said except a man be born of water and the spirit he can't be born again?

Surely if he meant water baptism Nicodemus (a pharisee) would not have been surprised. He had seen many experience that in his day. It wasn't a rarity. So why was he surprised and confused?

Simple, because Jesus didn't mean water baptism. Jesus said except a man be born of water (he didn't say except a man be baptised in water). Now that is a mystery isn't it? That is why Nicodemus was surprised.

Oga, it is getting exhausting. The water is the word. The spirit is the holy spirit. That is what Paul said. That is what Peter said. I believe it. That settles it.

selah!

Just imagine the way people explain their own scripture. After Jesus told nicodemus about water and spirit, was he still surprised? He was only surprised because Jesus said "Born again". All these talk, yet it was water the ethiopian eunoch saw and requested baptism. Continue in rhetorics, Jesus said something, it was water and spirit, the apostles understood it, their own disciples understood it. You may do well to tell me when it changed.

mba emeka:

now this is my problem with you. I have quoted Romans. I have quoted Ephesians. I have quoted Peter. Yet you are resolved to peddling the falsity that what I am showing you from the scriptures came 2000 years later.

I prefer to believe PAUL and PETER than any name whose stories verisimilitude I cannot ascertain.

Coming to 1 Peter 3:19-22. Peter said baptism which saves you. He didn't end there. He explained further by saying not just merely cleaning you of dirt or sin but by you accepting the lordship of Jesus christ. This is from the same Peter that said we are born again by the incorruptible word of God.

if you will be honest and bereft of religious bias can you explain why Nicodemus was surprised when Jesus said except a man be born of water and the spirit he can't be born again?

Surely if he meant water baptism Nicodemus (a pharisee) would not have been surprised. He had seen many experience that in his day. It wasn't a rarity. So why was he surprised and confused?

Simple, because Jesus didn't mean water baptism. Jesus said except a man be born of water (he didn't say except a man be baptised in water). Now that is a mystery isn't it? That is why Nicodemus was surprised.

Oga, it is getting exhausting. The water is the word. The spirit is the holy spirit. That is what Paul said. That is what Peter said. I believe it. That settles it.

selah!

You are either mischievious or astounishly ignorant!! Was Nicodemus shocked because he taught born again was baptism or be cause he taught e was going to be born again from his mother's womb?continue making a fool of yourselves

1 Peter 1:22-24

New International Version (NIV)

22 Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for each other, love one another deeply, from the heart.[a] 23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 24 For,

“All people are like grass,
    and all their glory is like the flowers of the field;
the grass withers and the flowers fall,

What do you understand the living and enternal WORD of God? Is it not explained in John 1:1-4? Jesus is the living and enternal word of God and of course we are born again through baptism in his name

mba emeka:

now this is my problem with you. I have quoted Romans. I have quoted Ephesians. I have quoted Peter. Yet you are resolved to peddling the falsity that what I am showing you from the scriptures came 2000 years later.

I prefer to believe PAUL and PETER than any name whose stories verisimilitude I cannot ascertain.

Coming to 1 Peter 3:19-22. Peter said baptism which saves you. He didn't end there. He explained further by saying not just merely cleaning you of dirt or sin but by you accepting the lordship of Jesus christ. This is from the same Peter that said we are born again by the incorruptible word of God.

if you will be honest and bereft of religious bias can you explain why Nicodemus was surprised when Jesus said except a man be born of water and the spirit he can't be born again?

Surely if he meant water baptism Nicodemus (a pharisee) would not have been surprised. He had
see
n many experience that in his day. It wasn't a rarity. So why was he surprised and confused?

Simple, because Jesus didn't mean water baptism. Jesus said except a man be born of water (he didn't say except a man be baptised in water). Now that is a mystery isn't it? That is why Nicodemus was surprised.

Oga, it is getting exhausting. The water is the word. The spirit is the holy spirit. That is what Paul said. That is what Peter said. I believe it. That settles it.

selah!

You are either mischievious or astounishly ignorant!! Was Nicodemus shocked because he thought born again was baptism or be cause he thought he was going to be born again from his mother's womb?continue making a fool of yourselves

1 Peter 1:22-24

New International Version (NIV)

22 Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for each other, love one another deeply, from the heart.[a] 23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 24 For,

“All people are like grass,
    and all their glory is like the flowers of the field;
the grass withers and the flowers fall,

What do you understand the living and enternal WORD of God? Is it not explained in John 1:1-4? Jesus is the living and enternal word of God and of course we are born again through baptism in his name

This pentecostal interpretation of the scriptures came about in the nineteenth to twentieth century!! My friend go and read abeg!! It was never taught in christendom from the 1st to the eihteenth century of christianity

Mind your Damn business, did we send you message?

Acts 2:37–38

37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

This verse finally nails it.Those who have ears,let them hear!!

Mark 16:16 (KJV)

One verse per line

16⁠ He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved ; but he that believeth not shall be damned .

chukwudi44: Born again was clearly defined by Jesus

1 born by water-baptism

2 born by the spirit

What is so difficult to understand here? Where does it describe the verbal proclamation of faith as been born again? Even right from the early years of christianity baptism has always been synonymous with born againism.it was only after the advent of pentecostalism almost two millenium later that the idea of verbal proclamation of faith(done daily in catholic chhurch) was taken as been born again.

It has been synonymous with being born again because it has something to do with being born again... (Water) Baptism is not being born again in itself......and as you rightly said exactly as Jesus defined: born again = Born of water, Born of spirit.....and not as Italo generalized that born.again=being baptized.

The bone of contention is now
what is 'born of water'?
..and what is 'born of Spirit'?

The word of God cannot lie. You can resist it out of sheer ignorance or out of headedness.

I believe we are not in contention with regards to if Jesus is the word of God. The question is simple. Why did Nicodemus act surprised? He had heard the term "born again ". He quizzed Jesus further. Do I need to re-enter my mother's womb? Jesus said no. A man must be born of water and the spirit. If he meant water baptism why would he not have said that simply?

I asked a question that you have failed to respond to. When John the Baptist said Jesus will baptise people with fire why didn't he burn people up going by your warped logic?

Of course John was talking about the Holy spirit.

Here is where your ignorance has been using a microphone. In the story of the Ethiopian Eunuch scripture said he was reading the scroll of Isaiah that was talking about Jesus but he didn't know. Philip after having explained the scriptures to him asked him to believe in Jesus. I am using a phone to type. Go and read verse 36 and 37 of the book of Acts chapter 8. It was after he must have done this that Philip baptised him. Ok ask yourself how did the Eunuch learn about baptism? It certainly wasn't in the scrolls of Isaiah. Surely Philip told him about it after he had accepted Jesus.

chukwudi44: Mark 16:16 (KJV)
One verse per line
16⁠ He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved ; but he that believeth not shall be damned .

he that BELIEVETH first. . .and then is baptised. Do you see it?

Why are you putting scriptures without carefully studying them? Have I said water baptism is wrong or done away with?

I said water baptism is only relevant after one has done what is written in the book of Romans 10 : 9-10.

If you don't grasp that you never will. Keep hiding in your "empty sprinkling and mother church gibberish". I was baptised- I mean wholly immersed in water. I believe in water baptism. I know that it comes after the new birth experience. Cest fini.

All this 20th century interpretation of scripture. So all through xtainity only in the 20th century did we start hearing that born again mean 'accept jesus as lord and savior'
d apostles rightly warned about the novel teachings that will be rampart in d later days.

Is the word born again not in your bible? Did you see water baptism written there? Are you saying people that were baptised by John need also to be baptized by Jesus? Who baptized Jesus? Was Jesus Not full of the Spirit right from Birth?Even at that Who baptized John? Was John not full of The Spirit from birth?

Ubenedictus: All this 20th century interpretation of scripture. So all through xtainity only in the 20th century did we start hearing that born again mean 'accept jesus as lord and savior'
d apostles rightly warned about the novel teachings that will be rampart in d later days.

You are the people fooling yourselves here.The order according to scriptures is firstly repentence then baptism not the other way round.We are justified by Faith in Christ Jesus by believing and confessing His Name before baptism..
Even Paul spent three days knowing Him(Jesus) when he was blind before he was baptized by ananias