Let me underscore this point further. When anyone mentions the appellation “the Son of God” in respect to Jesus Christ, one immediately thinks of Christianity and Christians. I’ve got news for you. Did you ever wonder that  it is not only Christianity that preaches Jesus as ‘the Son of God’? Bahá'ísm (which was not a Christian faith but rather emerged from Islam) also believes and confesses that Jesus Christ is ‘the Son of God’ – and so do the adherents of the Grail Message. The remarkable thing is that Bahá'ísm will tell you that, while it agrees with both Islam and Judaism, it deeply disagrees on almost everything in Christianity (even though it uses Christian terminology)! When you come across a Bahá'ís and listen for a while, you might easily be taken in and assume you’re listening to a “Christian”!

I guess you have a reason for usinig inverted comma with respect to the son of God. Reading the above may imply that the son of God as given in the Grail Message is similar to that of the Bahai faith. The son of God as given in the Grail Message has no relationship with Bahai teachings. According to the Grail Message, Jesus is the son of God because he is an incarnation of God. Bahai does not believe that Jesus is an incarnation of God even though it uses the term "son of God". Neither do Bahai believe in Trinity. Stay blessed.

@m_nwankwo,

How body?

m_nwankwo:

I guess you have a reason for usinig inverted comma with respect to the son of God. Reading the above may imply that the son of God as given in the Grail Message is similar to that of the Bahai faith. The son of God as given in the Grail Message has no relationship with Bahai teachings. According to the Grail Message, Jesus is the son of God because he is an incarnation of God.

Where did you read me making this implication, m_nwankwo? Where did you read me making the inference that "the son of God as given in the Grail Message is similar to that of the Bahai faith"?

m_nwankwo:

Bahai does not believe that Jesus is an incarnation of God even though it uses the term "son of God".

I don't remember saying that Bahai believes Jesus is the incarnation of God - or did you read me say so anywhere?

m_nwankwo:

Neither do Bahai believe in Trinity. Stay blessed.

Did I say anywhere that Bahai believes in the Trinity?

I think asking questions should have helped you better, rather than reading things into my post there.

Enjoy.

@Pilgrim.1: « #281 on: Yesterday at 03:08:11 PM »  

I knew you would not be able to contain yourself where you see my username. But my points were addressed directly to Chrisbenogor and not an argument for or against Islam. People have formed enough opinions for themselves to know the difference.

Don't forget that I love you so much as I love any of my womanfolks. lol. Pilgrim, you make me laugh. We are educating ourselves about matters of religion and nothing else. Okay. I know you are ducking my questions. Others have been carrying the waters for you. All there is for me is to be sure that your conscience is continued to be challenged. Nothing else!



@Chrisbenogor (m): « #282 on: Yesterday at 05:22:33 PM »  

@olabowole
You sound like a broken record, it is always about Jesus being God to you nothing else matters that is only when you like to scream and even at that you cannot do it well.

Absolutely. I am a broken record on the very essence of the Issue of belief. Do you know how any that could have fallen for the romanticized concept of "don't be responsible, because Jesus already shouldered your sins," if there are not people to challenge that kind of untruth?

And I wished my voice can even be louder when I scream. At least you noticed me enough to know that I am doing something about it. Alhamdulillah. Thats a beginning on my part. Someday, soon, InshaAllah I will be a better debater.

Your posts lack the ability to show an undecided reader that you are being rational you just go on and on about Jesus. I have said it a million times here why on earth do you think islam is right?

Islam is right because it fits with the natural thinking and ways of man. First it shows that man is the best of God's creations. Hence you see man being able to dominate all that is in nature!

Further, the concept of checks and balances, in the sense of rewards and punishments, allow for human to be by and large be considerate about others and how individuals fit into the general. Man makes laws to reward goodness and punish evilness. What would have happen if there is nothing to restrain anyone?

Is it not so that every society has a leader; president, etc based on its definition of who leadership rest? Is there no orders and laws that are ethnically acceptable to the masses? This is what you find in Islam.

First there is a God, who is One and His name is Allah. Thats a proper name.
Second there is a rule, commandments and religion from this Lord. The final commandment is on the pages of the Qur'an, given to Muhammad and the religion prescribed in the way of obedience is Islam. Unlike Judaism, it is not an ethnic religion. Unlike Christianity, it does not need to discriminate against against anyone, according to the Bible's message of Christ which was to the House of Israel, alone. Anyone can be a muslim, having all the full right as anyone else, upon the momemnt of acceptance!

Finally, if you believe that there is a God, know that this Lord God's way is always unchanging! The goal is the same; reward the obedient and punish the disobedient, at the end of the appointed time for the individual.

Is thereanything in Islam that does not fit the natural inclinaion of man? Please tell me so that we can talk about it. China must have taught you about disbelieving in God. I also asked you about the Augar Muslim etnic group's plight in China. In your dishonesty, you did not even comment on it. How can I take it that you are not dealing in self delution? If you are humanist, you should know that the plight of the Muslim minority as well as the Buhhdist in Tibet are worth noting.

And when you pointed to religion of peace, I reminded you that the Buhhdists are better qualified, from just the face of it. But you saw that when the Maynah  Mar ruling military junta pushed the population enough, the Monks reacted as best as they could.

It goes to the ahadith of prophet Muhammad about it you are not able to change evil with your hand, at least talk about it. It did not go to proof anything about turning the other cheek!

olabowale:

@Pilgrim.1: « #281 on: Yesterday at 03:08:11 PM » 
Don't forget that I love you so much as I love any of my womanfolks. lol. Pilgrim, you make me laugh. We are educating ourselves about matters of religion and nothing else. Okay. I know you are ducking my questions. Others have been carrying the waters for you. All there is for me is to be sure that your conscience is continued to be challenged. Nothing else!

You had every opportunity to defend your Islam without waiting to jump at my post and come back with this excuse of loving me. My conscience is quite at peace in Christ, that is why I'm not restlessly jumping here and there on issues about your religion.

@Pilgrim

How body?

I am fine. And you?

Where did you read me making this implication, m_nwankwo? Where did you read me making the inference that "the son of God as given in the Grail Message is similar to that of the Bahai faith"?

I did not read you making the implication. I only said that it may. All the same, my apology.

I don't remember saying that Bahai believes Jesus is the incarnation of God - or did you read me say so anywhere?

Sure you did not say so. I made the statement to point out that the son of God as used in the Grail Message has no relationship to its usage in Bahai teachings.

I think asking questions should have helped you better, rather than reading things into my post there

My apology. My submission on what the Grail Message teaches concerning why Jesus is the son of God will be helpful to some readers. Stay blessed!

@pilgrim

Lol, you simply may be unaware that you're living by that code. What is the code? I would leave you to go and find out about the basic premise of their philosophical ideology of a life without God.

Sister you are absolutely wrong, totally absolutely, trust me you could never be wronger in the whole of Nairaland, hitler I know very well what his silly Ideologies were, Stalin was just a power hungry sucker I read up not too long ago. I do not subscribe to their school of thought or anyone's for that matter, that I have my views about religion does not give me the right to enforce it on anyone, my code is simple would I like to be shot like a pig for believing what I do, HELL NO!

There's something that you have touched upon here - I deliberately left it in my previous reply. And that is this: Hitler was not born a German. Go and do a little research, and then come back and see that just in the same way, people cannot afford to be narrow about this issue and blame it on 'I was not born a German'.

Again I think you are just dancing around the point which is simple really, making it complex will not really help either of us in this discussion dearie, was Hitler a prophet of some religion, did he drop a moral code that Christians live by? Better yet how about we sub Hither for Moses, I think Moses did pretty well without the state of the art technology he was responsible for the death of close to 25 million people, Hitler did 43 million with air planes and war tanks. I mean Moses was a five star General that killed women and kids same way Hitler did , still no one has a problem with that. Seriously Nne, me i think Hitler was a disgusting human being who had no reason to keep living, same goes for Moses no apologies.

Moses's was even more despicable because he was annihilating people that lived in the lands they were born, there is no painting or rigmarole would get anyone out of this, how do you think this poll would fare, Do you think Hitler was evil? as against Do you think Moses was evil?

Cheers.

@Chrisbenogor,

Chrisbenogor:

@pilgrim

Lol, you simply may be unaware that you're living by that code. What is the code? I would leave you to go and find out about the basic premise of their philosophical ideology of a life without God.

Sister you are absolutely wrong, totally absolutely, trust me you could never be wronger in the whole of Nairaland, hitler I know very well what his silly Ideologies were, Stalin was just a power hungry sucker I read up not too long ago. I do not subscribe to their school of thought or anyone's for that matter, that I have my views about religion does not give me the right to enforce it on anyone, my code is simple would I like to be shot like a pig for believing what I do, HELL NO!

Lol, I might graciously condescend that my assumptions may be wrong - if at all you presented anything new. That's why I simply left you to go find out. What is the denominator again? 'A life without God' - was that any different from Hitler and Stalin? And was that different from the same premise you had opined earlier that you cannot believe in a 'God' of whom you read in the Bible? No, I have not classed you on the same ideology as Hitler's and Stalin - but I suggested all the same that it narrows down to just one code, viz - a life without God.

Chrisbenogor:

Again I think you are just dancing around the point which is simple really, making it complex will not really help either of us in this discussion dearie,

Hmm, if I wanted to be philosophically complex, I would have done so. That was as simple as I could put it across for you to digest; but if you could not, no worries. The basic assumptions from your arguments still await your own answers rather than merely postulating what you question but have no answers thereto.

Chrisbenogor:

was Hitler a prophet of some religion, did he drop a moral code that Christians live by? Better yet how about we sub Hither for Moses, I think Moses did pretty well without the state of the art technology he was responsible for the death of close to 25 million people, Hitler did 43 million with air planes and war tanks. I mean Moses was a five star General that killed women and kids same way Hitler did , still no one has a problem with that. Seriously Nne, me i think Hitler was a disgusting human being who had no reason to keep living, same goes for Moses no apologies.

I did not make Hitler a cross-breed of Moses; and I earlier stated clearly that even the other example outside of Hitler did not suggest that I was positing Communism, atheism and Christianity on parallels, remember? The one thing I had brought to your attention all along (details apart) was simply to turn your gaze to one thing: man does not need religion to be able to destroy himself. So, all the query of Moses and David et al is really scuttling behind the excuse of not really looking at the same issue from men without a religious affinity. Was that toooooo complex to grasp?

Chrisbenogor:

Moses's was even more despicable because he was annihilating people that lived in the lands they were born, there is no painting or rigmarole would get anyone out of this, how do you think this poll would fare, Do you think Hitler was evil? as against Do you think Moses was evil?

The slagging has gone on for much too long. My point? Atheism in the hearts of men does not project a better scenario.

Regards.

The one thing I had brought to your attention all along (details apart) was simply to turn your gaze to one thing: man does not need religion to be able to destroy himself. [/b]So, all the query of Moses and David et al is really scuttling behind the excuse of not really looking at the same issue from men without a religious affinity. Was that toooooo complex to grasp?

And which I agree with, only [b]that is not the issue here that's my point, the Issue is God ordered the mass killings, they were carried out by Moses , it was wrong to kill women and innocent children, that is the issue here.

The slagging has gone on for much too long. My point? Atheism in the hearts of men does not project a better scenario.

True , my point? God and Moses were responsible for the gruesome death of those twenty something million innocent people they have to moral right to tell me what to do!

Cheers

@Chrisbenogor,

Lol, calm down o. . no need for the frayed nerves. Let's talk, hmm?

Chrisbenogor:

And which I agree with, only that is not the issue here that's my point, the Issue is God ordered the mass killings, they were carried out by Moses , it was wrong to kill women and innocent children, that is the issue here.

And who ordered this:??

Hitler did 43 million with air planes and war tanks

. . see, we can go on and on and on about this issue, but you're missing the gist here. Let's assume that God was in the picture - your worry is the killings. Now again, let's assume that God is not in the picture - do you have your answer now? or did Hitler et al spare "women and children"?

And by the way, I find this refrain of "women and children" a really stupid thing for anyone to always say when trying to defend their position - as if the life of men are any less valued! What's with the thick emphasis in your quote on "women and children" - did men not go through those same worries? I'm not being particular on you; but it just sort of raises my brows to hear the same cliche every so often as if the lives of men are by any means devalued.

Chrisbenogor:

True , my point? God and Moses were responsible for the gruesome death of those twenty something million innocent people they have to moral right to tell me what to do!

And who was responsible for the "43 million with air planes and war tanks" quoted in yours? Your point is a bit on the tangent, bro. . . because it's easy to point fingers and harp always on "God and Moses dunnit!" And for all that, who "dunnit" in the atheist case?


Now, dear Chris. . I no wan vex you, so relax. You see eh, my palava is not the wars that worry you. Like I said, I have asked these questions, used them the way you did, even more than all this; but how did those queries settle the deepest longing of my own heart on the 'God' question? And yours? Does it make any sense to keep harping endlessly on this one issue as if that is the only thing that gives the atheism itself a pat on the back.

No, I'm not trying to wax philosophical or complex again: all I'm doing is asking you to calm down and think for yourself if those queries will answer the deepest longing of your own heart, or you would really need to get to grips with your own struggles? I assume we can agree that endlessly harping on these war questions does not bring anyone closer to the real answers for our own hearts.

@Chrisbenogor

the answer to the `concerns' you have raised about the old testament is very deep.

But as they say, if you cannot convey something in a sentence, then its most probably a lie. so short answer is given below:

Answer: The Hebrew God of the Bible apologises to nobody concerning the writings in the OT including the murders by Moses. Sounds harsh but true. This is because He who made can use what He has made for anything. Also, God's moral standard is always the highest!

Since you appear quite moral, will you take a bullet for ur friend? d answer is NO.

So you can see that ur supposed morality has fallen flat to the ground else you will have taken d bullet.

Therefore let us accept that God knows what He is doing and has done.

dear chris
you have once again raised some of the questions that really bothered me for the better part of my adult life. I understand these are legitimate questions any rational thinking person must ask about the personality of the God of the bible.
some of the posters here have attempted to answer the question albeit from their linited human capabilities, frankly speaking,those answers can't satisfy our curiosities. but one thing i do know now, that the way christianity was practiced in the old testament was quite different from what we saw in the new with the appearance of Jesus on the scene,im not sure whether God ordered any such purges again in the new testament and that my friend is what influences christianity as we know it today, no wars in the name of God, priciple of non violence adhered to and a generally peaceful disposition of most adherents.
My brother, what i do know personally is that we can never get all answers so i have stopped bothering about them.
All i know is this, accepting jesus did for me what human understanding can never fathom,its like me coming alive all of a sudden, like i wasnt living before,
so dear one, the answers dont even satisfy me fully but i dont think they are what matters most in christianity now,i know by and by God himself will reaveal these answers to us but for now, ill keep on pressing forward to know more of him.
may his peace be with you.

jesus is lord.

@pilgrim
I apologise if I was getting agitated a good nights sleep has remedied the issue,
Now to the other issues, pilgrim it would be stupid of me to hold on to this one issue and say that's why I do not believe in the way Christianity paints God, if you go some posts back you will see where I said it is one of the foundations, you can call it a pillar but it is just one of them.

Does it make any sense to keep harping endlessly on this one issue as if that is the only thing that gives the atheism itself a pat on the back.

Not at all, let me make something a bit clearer for you, I think personally that you or no one would be able to give reason to those mass killings what I always try to achieve is simple,
1 That the way God has been painted in the bible is askew, there is no Moral symmetry in the actions of God and his well known prophet, take the case of the Golden calf for example, people tell kids these stories without letting them even know that Moses ground the calf and mixed with water and gave the Hebrews to drink, what do I call that plain simple torture no amount of painting to me will make that right, he also went ahead and ordered the levites to draw their swords and murder their friends. Let's not forget that Aaron who made the calf in the first instance was honored with being the high priest. The point I am trying to underscore is that this does not fit into the moral, just and loving father God is often potrayed to be these days, there is a great shift in the NT and Christians still believe in this "God".
2. For Christians to admit that those actions were wrong, that is where I question Christian honesty, you might not agree here on Nairaland and I do not need you to all I intend to do is to strike that which is in you to show compassion even to the wicked which Christ came down and did, so how in the heck is he the Son of God, mind boggling.

I hope the bigger picture is getting clearer now, it is not that this one issue no, I am saying Christ had ample time to say well you know moses took it to the extreme to wipe out people like that, better still if Christ did not why is nobody saying it among the Christian community, why?

The main reason I was getting agitated was that no I am not lending credibility to the atheists, no be them holy pass we know but that is not what is disturbing me, it is how a God that is supposed to be loving order this when my mere mortal instincts are screaming that they are wrong.

And by the way, I find this refrain of "women and children" a really stupid thing for anyone to always say when trying to defend their position - as if the life of men are any less valued! What's with the thick emphasis in your quote on "women and children" - did men not go through those same worries? I'm not being particular on you; but it just sort of raises my brows to hear the same cliche every so often as if the lives of men are by any means devalued.

I have been fortunate, or unfortunate if you want to put it that way to be in crisis torn zones, in fact ever since 1999 I have had been encountering these things, most people never know what it is like to be in the real battle front, it is only then that you will appreciate the numbers, have you ever passed by the way and seen a ghastly motor accident where legs and arms were chopped off and you felt like you wanted to vomit, then you do not know what is going to hit you if the number we are talking about is in the hundreds not to talk of the thousands I do not even want to comprehend one million and for them to be killed with swords, gross.

Men like me could protect ourselves, we could run faraway and try to survive, but women and kids it poses a real challenge for them, more so, it is a known rule that when someone is unarmed you are not supposed to kill that person even if he was putting on a soldiers uniform that is why they are called prisoners of war POW, women and children are not taken because it is just inhumane to kill them, they are "weak" in a sense, please note that I am talking in a general sense.

@obalende
Hi,
Look at it this way, like you said he offers no apology, I am not too concerned with that at the moment, what I am concerned about is that the actions were not at all of a merciful father that loves all of his creation enough to send his only begotten son.
If he doesnt give two shakes of a duck's tail that on his orders millions were murdered why the heck do you think he suddenly cares enough to send his only begotten son? Better yet why do you think he gives two cheeks of a monkey's ass that you prayed this morning that someone you know who is sick should get well, besides that there are a lot of sicker people who needs his grace.
What does taking a bullet for a friend have to do with morality? Please enlighten me.

Dear Chrisbenogor,

Good morning. You did the right thing to have taken a good sleep and be refreshed to share your thoughts. I did the same.

Chrisbenogor:

Now to the other issues, pilgrim it would be stupid of me to hold on to this one issue and say that's why I do not believe in the way Christianity paints God, if you go some posts back you will see where I said it is one of the foundations, you can call it a pillar but it is just one of them.

I may be mistaken; but it seems to me that this very point (the 'mass killing') has often (or always) been the very underlying current for rejecting faith in the Biblical God. Let me remind you of a recent example that accentuates this:

[list][list]

That is my problem, not       that it is the christians that did it but it is the same God that ordered it you believe in, personally I cannot believe in a God that would order those mindless killing of women and children its sick, and that is where my problem with Jesus comes in

[/list][/list]

. . so there. Even reading through your reposte this morning, one is struck that it is that very feature that is highlighted yet for the same inability to believe in God. I already noted that as long as that is the one thing people are holding unto for their "inability" to put their trust in Him, they have not been asking the real questions of their own hearts - and that is why this search for a "cardboard religion" of a complacent 'god' will lead nowhere, nor will that satisfy the deepest longings of your own heart or anyone else's.

The two points you highlighted below are saying basically more or less the same thing; but even so, I'll oblige some comments on them:

Chrisbenogor:

Not at all, let me make something a bit clearer for you, I think personally that you or no one would be able to give reason to those mass killings what I always try to achieve is simple,

It all depends on what "answer" you're seeking. One possible reason was the sovereignty in God's holiness, which I hinted earlier as the one thing that terrifies man. Yet, that answer may not go down well with people holding on to this 'warfare' hiatus; and it is understandable why the natural mind is unable to grasp that point.

Chrisbenogor:

1 That the way God has been painted in the bible is askew, there is no Moral symmetry in the actions of God and his well known prophet, take the case of the Golden calf for example, people tell kids these stories without letting them even know that Moses ground the calf and mixed with water and gave the Hebrews to drink, what do I call that plain simple torture no amount of painting to me will make that right, he also went ahead and ordered the levites to draw their swords and murder their friends. Let's not forget that Aaron who made the calf in the first instance was honored with being the high priest. The point I am trying to underscore is that this does not fit into the moral, just and loving father God is often potrayed to be these days, there is a great shift in the NT and Christians still believe in this "God".

Chris, hang on a minute - it seems to me that you've run ahead of your thinking here. Listening to someone like you narrate reports the way you just did would just mislead the listener. Please go back and understand the reason for Aaron giving in to the desires of the people - the Golden Calf idea did not start with him; and all he did to restrain the people involved just didn't yield any fruit. You know what? Even in our day, this principle holds true: if a man is set in his ways to do evil, God will let that man drive on his desire and face the consequences - and that is after several warnings have been given.

Secondly, I wonder that if your problem is that people don't tell kids the details of the event such as the driking of ground dust etc, why is it that history classes do not tell kids the details of atheistic murders? Yea, I know that will flag up the same excuse again as to "condemning" every sort of mass killing; but are you not here doing the same thing in highlighting the case in the OT and yet never able to grasp the reason for how it is that a man opposed to Jews in particular would become a killing machine without God's help?

Third, when you posit that this issue rests on the moral nature of God as being called a loving 'Father', the question drives right back to ask what kind of morality you are envisaging for yourself. On the one hand, you offer that this warfare is not the real issue for your lack of faith in Him; on the other hand you are not too keen to seriously face up to the question of what man is without God - loving Father or not. Like I said, the warfare is not the one thing that kept me from His love; and if that is even an issue, my simple question is this: show me a morality that has helped man stop his own destruction without the help of God or religion.

Fourth, people who go on and on about God's morality not fitting with His loving nature based on those warfares are failing to see that even in the NT, the same God declares that He will definitely judge evil men! NO? Now, dear Chrisbenogor, what kind of 'god' serves your morality if he/it leaves wicked men unjudged at the end just because you cannot believe in 'God'? That's why I'm not pushing the Biblical God on your submissions; but the problem here is that even trying to discuss your own assumptions are giving you more questions unanswered than you are seeking from harping on the warfare of the Bible.

If we are going to be honest on this point, then the very thing you are asking should be applied both ways - history classes for kids should also be as revealing in telling kids the details of the murders from atheist leaders; and if that is not 'good' for their health, where is your own morality to ask that kids be told the details of Moses case but not the ones done by atheists?

Chrisbenogor:

2. For Christians to admit that those actions were wrong, that is where I question Christian honesty,

I'm not one of those who "admits" that those actions were wrong. People may allege therefore from this that such a thinking makes me a killer, and that would be a wasted idea based on deliberate falsehood. To "admit" that such actions were wrong is to deliberately ignore the very foundation of man's own nature way back in Genesis 4 and 6 and then keep harping again and again on the warfare of the Israelites.

Chrisbenogor:

you might not agree here on Nairaland and I do not need you to all I intend to do is to strike that which is in you to show compassion even to the wicked which Christ came down and did, so how in the heck is he the Son of God, mind boggling.

Aren't you postulating an imploding statement that suffers a sudden inward collapse here? You are asking me to show the same compassion as in Christ, and then you question that same Christ as being the Son of God! You're already creating a huge problem for yourself and your readers. If you are asking to "strike" a compassion in me which I derive from Christ, and then question that same Christ, what in the world are you really saying?

Chrisbenogor:

I hope the bigger picture is getting clearer now, it is not that this one issue no, I am saying Christ had ample time to say well you know moses took it to the extreme to wipe out people like that, better still if Christ did not why is nobody saying it among the Christian community, why?

If you're waiting to put words in Christ's mouth, does that solve your dilemma? Let us even assume that many people in the Christian community would say what you're asking, would you jump at the offer to receive God's love then? If not, why NOT?

You see Chris, I wasn't kidding when I said I've been through this issue before I became a Christian. The one thing that brought me to Him was an honest evaluation of my own heart. In simple terms: if I set some moral standards for myself, would I truly believe in and apply that standard in my own life? In the same way: if anyone said what you're asking them to say, would that have made you believe in this "loving God known as FATHER"??

The real issue here is not what you're suggesting - and may I dare say that we (you and I) know it deep in our hearts. This is why I said that I'm not one of those who "admits" those actions you complain about in the Bible are "wrong" - because even if I should acquiesce, you still would stand where you are not not make a move closer to Christ. What then would have been the benefit of my compromise?

Chrisbenogor:

The main reason I was getting agitated was that no I am not lending credibility to the atheists, no be them holy pass we know but that is not what is disturbing me, it is how a God that is supposed to be loving order this when my mere mortal instincts are screaming that they are wrong.

"Mere moral instincts" instincts should have told you that consistency is seriously lacking in your submissions - and I don't mean that in a rude way. If you tell me that the warfare is not the one thing that disturbs your ideology, we would have seen the other things that you would have presented. But it's even more difficult for you to convince anyone that you have any other real issue than this one, and while trying to disengage from it, you're still harping on it.

Lol, Chris. . I should not have gone this length - but just to show you what I meant at the beginning: you're still on the same page on this issue even though you say it is actually not this one.

Chrisbenogor:

I have been fortunate, or unfortunate if you want to put it that way to be in crisis torn zones, in fact ever since 1999 I have had been encountering these things, most people never know what it is like to be in the real battle front, it is only then that you will appreciate the numbers, have you ever passed by the way and seen a ghastly motor accident where legs and arms were chopped off and you felt like you wanted to vomit, then you do not know what is going to hit you if the number we are talking about is in the hundreds not to talk of the thousands I do not even want to comprehend one million and for them to be killed with swords, gross.

While I appreciate your narration there, may I also suggest to you that so many of us here have seen warfare - both religious and non-religious violence. Not many Nigerians are ignorant of recent civil unrests in Nigeria; I also have seen things happen right in front of my eyes in Pakistan; others have been and still live with wars every single day. In spite of this, how in the world are these people able to come to a saving faith in the same loving God that people have a problem with because of Jesus? The excuse has always been the same for those who say they cannot believe - it has always been the "killing with swords", not so? Ask some of these people why that should even be a reason at all - and you would predictably hear them say that is not the issue they hold unto for their inability to believe. You sound more like doing that same thing Chris. . and I'm sorry that there's nothing new here that you have presented. That is why I have not sought to push the "God" question on your submissions - but rather asked you to take a look at the morality of man without God. Do you feel any better then?

Chrisbenogor:

Men like me could protect ourselves, we could run faraway and try to survive, but women and kids it poses a real challenge for them, more so, it is a known rule that when someone is unarmed you are not supposed to kill that person even if he was putting on a soldiers uniform that is why they are called prisoners of war POW, women and children are not taken because it is just inhumane to kill them, they are "weak" in a sense, please note that I am talking in a general sense.

I appreciate your general sense; but if you actually look at real scenarios in warfare - how many men are able to "run"? At least, I have seen things with my own eyes and very thankful to have stayed alive. But even when people are running, how many men died in such running is something that may stagger us.

Regards.

@Chrisbenogor,

In the replies just above, I noted that you were holding on to just one premise for your inability to believe in the Biblical revelation of God; even though you argued that it is not so. No wahala. However. .

Chrisbenogor:

Now to the other issues, pilgrim it would be stupid of me to hold on to this one issue and say that's why I do not believe in the way Christianity paints God, if you go some posts back you will see where I said it is one of the foundations, you can call it a pillar but it is just one of them.

Let me just ask a question here: since I observe the highlight above as to your concerns, question is -

      WHAT are you going to do now, since you cannot believe in God as revealed in the Bible?

Just curious, if anything other than that.

Bless.

@reindeer
Yes I agree that there is a total difference between how it is practiced in the new testament, but I feel something very important was missed. Why were these things not fully banished? Jesus himself said he did not come to abolish these laws.
Did you know that the punishment for disobeying most of the ten commandments was death by stoning? And there are instances in bible where an example was set out for each? A boy stoned because he cursed in God's name, people were to be stoned if they worshiped another God or if they had graven images in fact if it was your brother or husband you were to start the stoning yourself.
Take the case of slavery Jesus could have said keeping anyone against their wish is not right stop it. Simple but he does not.
My dear there are powers beyond our reasoning I agree but the nature of these powers cannot be found in any holy book the bible inculsive.
Have a nice day!

@Chrisbenogor,

Chrisbenogor:

@reindeer
Yes I agree that there is a total difference between how it is practiced in the new testament, but I feel something very important was missed. Why were these things not fully banished? Jesus himself said he did not come to abolish these laws.

Were the LAWS you are referring to given to Gentiles?

@pilgrim
Na wa oh, did you read the first sentences of my post last? Just asking oh because you are trying to drum into my head that it is only this one issue.
I said at the beginning that this is just a pillar just one of the issues. In case you did not understand although I am certain you did, it is just one issue and my initial post tended towards this because of the title of the thread. So instead of us running around in circles and posting long replies, let me say it again it is just one of the issues not the only issue.
Now another thing we need to get off our necks is this, atheists have killed people too I know loads of people, and history classes should always say this. There is a defence system you use that I call the PILGRIM BLOCK it dazzled me for some time but right now I know how to deal with it. What am I saying here, you often throw a cloud to cover an issue, mostly it is made up of how you think the opposite or other sides as the case may be have done something wrong too.For example if one raises a question on christianity you counter by saying hey atheists cannot even agree on what atheism is, the person usually loses focus and then it suddenly becomes a battle of who can define theirs. Another example is this some christian ministers are a disgrace, it suddenly becomes about atheists who were a disgrace, what I am saying here is let us TACKLE THE ISSUE WE HAVE IN FRONT OF US. We know hitler did bad things too, maybe the historians are not saying much about that we can tackle that later, for now do you see the actions Moses took as wrong, and you said no which is fine, that is the issue here for me all other things added would distract us from the main goals.
You are right, anyone accepting that they are wrong would not move me an inch closer to God, neither would you answer that they are not draw me farther. I try to be as honest as possible in my post, any thoughts I have that I post and come out to be wrong is because maybe I did not know the facts or pass across my messge well.
If I set moral standards for myself would I be able to stand them, probably not, I would certainly fall short. For me it is not the fact that I fell that is important but for me to admit that I did. Knowing these things would help someone form the right image on the nature of God as per morality.
As for the case of aaron for instance I personally think his head should have been chopped off first, he feared what man would do to him and not what God would do to him is a flimsy excuse. He was Moses's brother he knew fully well what the consequences of serving other god's were, anyway I really do not want to digress much.
Since you asked what I think life would be without a God. You know at the thought of this most people are like there would be total chaos but I tend to see it differently, I think it will be much better, and since I do not want to digress further on this issue we can open another thread to tackle that.
What will I do now that I cannot believe in this biblical revelation of God. My dear believe it or not ever since I dropped the act of pretending to believe after quite serious encounters like yourself my life has actually taken a turn for the best so far! In every aspect of my life I apply the principles by which I live my life now it has only gotten better for me. I have been able to really respect a human being regardless of where ever they are in the strata of life, regardless of colour, religion. I have been able to listen with an open mind what other people believe and even if I do not agree that it applies to me I say if that is what you believe by all means follow it.
I am going to make a crazy assumption which is that in 2500 years organised religion would be extinct.

Dear Chris,

Lol, thank you for sharing your thoughts and trying to persuade me that you haven't been on the same page ever since. The only problem is that the issue of the warfares is what has kept recurring in your musings, and that was why it was difficult for me to see any other thing you might have presented as the real current for your situation.

All the same:

Chrisbenogor:

I am going to make a crazy assumption which is that in 2500 years organised religion would be extinct.

It would have been a good stake to bet your money on - if you had enough to stake it! Lol, aside from that, if man is still here by that time, religion will remain. Religion has a long and definitely durable history - most of which we know absolute zilch about. However, no be today people begin fight religious beliefs. . it's been longer than twice 2,500 years. The more people make these "predictions" about the end of religion, the more they wake up to see how far from reality that prediction is.

Shalom.

Oyoibadan,you are back?
Now to your question;Jesus is not God and has never claimed to be.the bible is loaded with proofs of this vital and indispensable fact.
When he asked;if you have seen me you have seen the father.if one goes out on behalf of one's father and the visited wonders where is your father?who they apparently have no way of meeting(or seeing in Jesus case)is one not the representative of one's father in that instance? the clear cut question and answer was what Jesus gave them; probably understanding that they have problems believing him.
God is love and Jesus forever has his name in history because he died for all humans,whether or not one likes it,he died for all of us and redeemed all therefore letting all to avail of the opportunity of attaining to life eternal.
We have been bought at a price;a ransome was paid for all.
We must not forget that he was the firstborn of all creation and through him all things were created and for him.Jesus alone;son of the most high is saviour of mankind. Praise JEHOVAH and all the children of God said,

Next,Oyoibadan.

james1:

Now to your question;Jesus is not God and has never claimed to be.the bible is loaded with proofs of this vital and indispensable fact.

But you have a problem about Jesus being the Son of God, then?

I and My Father are one.

---Jesus

gamine
longest time, u travel?

take kia

Affee

How bodi, i was travelling back n forth

izz well o

Jesus is Lord

Who is still asking whether Jesus is God

LORD Jesus Christ is God Indeed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Gamine:

I and My Father are one.

---Jesus

Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: Matthew 11:11


"Among the Jews are those who distort words from their (proper) places (i.e., usages)." (Qur’an 4:46).

MC Usman:

". . those who distort words from their (proper) places (i.e., usages)." (Qur’an 4:46).

"those who distort words" . .are you not doing that very thing?

Go tell it on the Mountains, Over the Sea and Every where

That Jesus Christ is GOD!

John10:30 "I and my Father are one."

God in old testament presented Himself to man as Father,
God in new testament presented Himself to man as Son,
God presented in this grace period as Holy Ghost.

Jesus is God. There4 Father Son Holy Ghost is equal to God

SuperT: « #318 on: Today at 12:04:13 AM »

John10:30 "I and my Father are one."

So how do you explain this here? Matthew 27: 46, Mark 15:34: My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

God in old testament presented Himself to man as Father,

He instructed to kill many of his own children; Pharaoh and his army, Goliat, Phillistines, people of Jericho, just to name a few. Yet He drowned people of Noah, rain brimestones of people of Lot. And some of His children, another group of childen said He is not even their God and definitely not their father, knowing fatherhood will be impossible,

God in new testament presented Himself to man as Son,

but it isthesae son who mounted his mother Mary. As a ghost got her prgnant by overshadowing her, coming upon her. This is edipus complex, so father watch out.

God presented in this grace period as Holy Ghost.

But theholy Ghost gor Mary pregnant some 33 years, earlier. How many holy ghost were thre and where can I find the record of what he taught, reminded of Jesus's earlier statements just some few days or months before, glorified and poke exactly what he heard, etc as Jesus foretold? There must be a book somewhere because thi Holy Ghost as COMFORTER was to abide forever. And a written material that is unchanging from whence it was first revealed (what he hars he will speak), his a perfect way to preserve and aide forever.


[quoteJesus is God. There4 Father Son Holy Ghost is equal to God[quote][/quote]From your statement it seems that you are arguing that each of these fully God(s) all become a single God. Will this nw God that they becme be grater than the God that each one is in his own indivdua Godship? If this is not so, then it is clear that each is an incompete God.No woner Jesus was easily killed. And Ghost was the one sent on errant every time. And father cantdo all tings without depening on either Jesus and or Ghost.

If each is indvidually a complete God, then one is to wnder if it was necessary to hear Jesus beg God Whom he could not even call father, but called Him "my God" on the cross and "my Lord, my God" when saying hear yea oh Israel.