@Olabowale,

Thank you for that small lecture. I think it went just the other way as it was irrelavant to the point being discussed with ayinba1. It did not take the media or the piper to blow any tunes before she made claims that I responded to. Thank you again, but the irrelevant whistling was unnecessary.

Thanks for exposing your ignorance and falsehood, pilgrim.

Hope you find your way!

I can't keep up with your load of c--p!

@Pilgrim1

If Jesus was in Hell he would have been the Light there. Know ye not that He shall create a new Heaven and a new Earth?

He said I go to prepare a place for YOU so that I will come back for YOU so that where I shall be you may be also.

The 3 hebrew students were about to be executed and they were ready to die saviour or no Saviour. We must be ready to follow Christ to any where, Why we are redeemed by Christ.

He is the Light of the world hell is hell because of the constitution not because of the Name.

@Backslider,

I still ask you to be careful what you say. Read Matthew 12:37. Cheers.

ayinba1:

Thanks for exposing your ignorance and falsehood, pilgrim.

Hope you find your way!

I can't keep up with your load of c--p!

@ayinba1, I was not surprised you would resign yourself to such fatalistic thinking. The "ignorance and falsehood" are actually a compliment - especially where my exposé of your false claims are evident. Cheers.

Matters of faith, hmmm very interesting indeed . I will try my best to make this not look like a coup d etat (hijack ).
First I want to call out on the mods(A_K_O, mukina), my brothers and sister wetin dey happen? why this bias, I have never posted in the islamic section, the tales of what you guys do to people who do so is quite alarming and since I like my username a lot I keep away even though there are loads of things posted over that make me wonder if they are real people there. Why would you allow a muslim( not sure if original poster is but certainly looks that way) post a question to a christian thread, not just any question but one that is the foundation of what they believe in, I can imagine going into the islamic section to post something about their sacred prophet calling him a prophet of doom. I don't know if anyone has tried before and I certainly don't want to try myself even though I have almost had to cut off my hand so I don't fall into the temptation.
But I respect and commend    christians because they even have the patience to sit and try to explain things to the muslims even though quite obviously they are not there to understand but to invalidate that which the christians believe in, please do well to throw the floor open for us to seriously probe islam however we want or simply create a christian thread and ask all muslims to stay away, but I don't think the christians really mind because I am sure if it were jesus christ's pictures that was made fun of in cartoons there would be no destructive protests by the christians and the muslims would not protest even though they say they believe jesus was a prophet of God.
Now to the crux of the issue at hand, what is basis for this discussion between christians and muslims? None whatsoever! The christians believe from their holy bible the nature of the personality of Jesus and if this is a discussion between the sects in christianity then fine the floor is open for them but you as a muslim HAVE NO MORAL RIGHT to question that which the christians have chosen to believe in.
None of us has seen God and you rely on what you have been told by those who either say they have heard from God or is the Son of God.
The christian position is simple God in three forms whats so difficult to understand, its so annoying that you are using physical things to explain the spiritual when you fully well know that one does not even have to go that far to invalidate the totality of Islam. How about you tell us more why there is sunni and shia sects or did the prophet forget to explain that to you.
Any religion that has enough time to directly invalidate another to me is already 100 percent man made.
I would be happy to engage you muslims on what you believe but that would be on my turf which is this particular board, I know the benevolent christians won't mind but I don't want to step on the toes of your mostly ill tempered brothers, and sisters( its a wonder they allow the ladies use the internet).

@Chrisbenogor

The Ladies?

Just let them move to a truely Sharialized State you wont hear from them again.

Lol I know na

Why are all these misguided muslims hell bent on imposing allah into the bible? the god of the bible in NOT the god of the koran, they are DIFFERENT, why is it so hard for you guys to understand that? the fact that prophet mohammed spoke about the judoe/christain god and his prophets as being the same with allah doesnt make it true, allah is the arabic god while jehova yaweh is the judoe/christain god, get it the christain god has a son and is 3 in one , allah believes that every human is his slave and thats the difference between them, the muslim god's name is allah and arabic is the language he prefers, the judoe/christains god's name is jehova yaweh and he is comfortable with any language(that has changed over they years though). . .  so muslims stop deluding yourselves by believing that allah and jehova are the same. . . .  that fact that mohammed  and the koran said so doesnt make it true. . . . . .(i must conceed that the old testament god is very similar to allah and there is very little difference between them)

Chrisbenogor:

Matters of faith, hmmm very interesting indeed . I will try my best to make this not look like a coup d etat (hijack ).
First I want to call out on the mods(A_K_O, mukina), my brothers and sister wetin dey happen? why this bias, I have never posted in the islamic section, the tales of what you guys do to people who do so is quite alarming and since I like my username a lot I keep away even though there are loads of things posted over that make me wonder if they are real people there. Why would you allow a muslim( not sure if original porter is but certainly looks that way) post a question to a christian thread, not just any question but one that is the foundation of what they believe in, I can imagine going into the islamic section to post something about their sacred prophet calling him a prophet of doom. I don't know if anyone has tried before and I certainly don't want to try myself even though I have almost had to cut off my hand so I don't fall into the temptation.
But I respect and commend christians because they even have the patience to sit and try to explain things to the muslims even though quite obviously they are not there to understand but to invalidate that which the christians believe in, please do well to throw the floor open for us to seriously probe islam however we want or simply create a christian thread and ask all muslims to stay away, but I don't think the christians really mind because I am sure if it were jesus christ's pictures that was made fun of in cartoons there would be no destructive protests by the christians and the muslims would not protest even though they say they believe jesus was a prophet of God.
Now to the crux of the issue at hand, what is basis for this discussion between christians and muslims? None whatsoever! The christians believe from their holy bible the nature of the personality of Jesus and if this is a discussion between the sects in christianity then fine the floor is open for them but you as a muslim HAVE NO MORAL RIGHT to question that which the christians have chosen to believe in.
None of us has seen God and you rely on what you have been told by those who either say they have heard from God or is the Son of God.
The christian position is simple God in three forms whats so difficult to understand, its so annoying that you are using physical things to explain the spiritual when you fully well know that one does not even have to go that far to invalidate the totality of Islam. How about you tell us more why there is sunni and shia sects or did the prophet forget to explain that to you.
Any religion that has enough time to directly invalidate another to me is already 100 percent man made.
I would be happy to engage you muslims on what you believe but that would be on my turf which is this particular board, I know the benevolent christians won't mind but I don't want to step on the toes of your mostly ill tempered brothers, and sisters( its a wonder they allow the ladies use the internet).

Balanced. . . thoughtful. . apt!

Chris God bless you

@pilgrim

I was about to say Nasa Creation again but I figured this one out


@affee
Gee thanks had someone pray for me yesterday too , yipee, 

look save youself all these arguements.if u truely want to know and u are sure u want to know and not to mock or for fun call any of these numbers 08036629800 or 08055111073 and 07030487305. i'm sure u wont regret u called.

dayo23:

look save youself all these arguements.if u truely want to know and u are sure u want to know and not to mock or for fun call any of these numbers 08036629800 or 08055111073 and 07030487305. i'm sure u wont regret u called.

Why don't the people behind these numbers come on here and say what they have to say so that the seasoned members of this forum can know too we are all seeking the truth.
Cheers.

Chrisbenogor:

Matters of faith, hmmm very interesting indeed . I will try my best to make this not look like a coup d etat (hijack ).
First I want to call out on the mods(A_K_O, mukina), my brothers and sister wetin dey happen? why this bias, I have never posted in the islamic section, the tales of what you guys do to people who do so is quite alarming and since I like my username a lot I keep away even though there are loads of things posted over that make me wonder if they are real people there. Why would you allow a muslim( not sure if original poster is but certainly looks that way) post a question to a christian thread, not just any question but one that is the foundation of what they believe in, I can imagine going into the islamic section to post something about their sacred prophet calling him a prophet of doom. I don't know if anyone has tried before and I certainly don't want to try myself even though I have almost had to cut off my hand so I don't fall into the temptation.
But I respect and commend christians because they even have the patience to sit and try to explain things to the muslims even though quite obviously they are not there to understand but to invalidate that which the christians believe in, please do well to throw the floor open for us to seriously probe islam however we want or simply create a christian thread and ask all muslims to stay away, but I don't think the christians really mind because I am sure if it were jesus christ's pictures that was made fun of in cartoons there would be no destructive protests by the christians and the muslims would not protest even though they say they believe jesus was a prophet of God.
Now to the crux of the issue at hand, what is basis for this discussion between christians and muslims? None whatsoever! The christians believe from their holy bible the nature of the personality of Jesus and if this is a discussion between the sects in christianity then fine the floor is open for them but you as a muslim HAVE NO MORAL RIGHT to question that which the christians have chosen to believe in.
None of us has seen God and you rely on what you have been told by those who either say they have heard from God or is the Son of God.
The christian position is simple God in three forms whats so difficult to understand, its so annoying that you are using physical things to explain the spiritual when you fully well know that one does not even have to go that far to invalidate the totality of Islam. How about you tell us more why there is sunni and shia sects or did the prophet forget to explain that to you.
Any religion that has enough time to directly invalidate another to me is already 100 percent man made.
I would be happy to engage you muslims on what you believe but that would be on my turf which is this particular board, I know the benevolent christians won't mind but I don't want to step on the toes of your mostly ill tempered brothers, and sisters( its a wonder they allow the ladies use the internet).

Even a christian could not have written a more concise riposte! Brilliant Chris!

Just a note of correction though, A.K.O has nothing to do with removing posts on the islamic board . . . that is the job of Mukina2 and Mustay.

Interesting find this morning on Yahoo News.

Scientists: Virginia shark's pup a 'virgin birth' By STEVE SZKOTAK, Associated Press Writer
Fri Oct 10, 2:32 PM ET

RICHMOND, Va. - Scientists have confirmed the second case of a "virgin birth" in a shark. In a study reported Friday in the Journal of Fish Biology, scientists said DNA testing proved that a pup carried by a female Atlantic blacktip shark in the Virginia Aquarium & Marine Science Center contained no genetic material from a male.


The first documented case of asexual reproduction, or parthenogenesis, among sharks involved a pup born to a hammerhead at an Omaha, Neb., zoo.

"This first case was no fluke," Demian Chapman, a shark scientist and lead author of the second study, said in a statement. "It is quite possible that this is something female sharks of many species can do on occasion."

The aquarium sharks that reproduced without mates each carried only one pup, while some shark species can produce litters numbering in the dozen or more. The scientists cautioned that the rare asexual births should not be viewed as a possible solution to declining global shark populations.

"It is very unlikely that a small number of female survivors could build their numbers up very quickly by undergoing virgin birth," Chapman said.

The medical mystery began 16 months ago after the death of the Atlantic blacktip shark named Tidbit at the Virginia Beach aquarium. No male blacktip sharks were present during her eight years at the aquarium.

In May 2007, the 5-foot, 94-pound shark died of stress-related complications related to her unknown pregnancy after undergoing a yearly checkup. The 10-inch shark pup was found during a necropsy of Tidbit, surprising aquarium officials. They initially thought the embryonic pup was either a product of a virgin birth or a cross between the blacktip and a male of another shark species — which has never been documented, Chapman said.

Tidbit's pup was nearly full term, and likely would have been quickly eaten by "really big sand tiger sharks" that were in the tank, Chapman said in a telephone interview from Florida.

That is what happened to the tiny hammerhead pup in the Omaha case.

"By the time they could realize what they were looking at, something munched the baby," he said of aquarium workers. The remains of the pup were used for the DNA testing.

Virgin birth has been proven in some bony fish, amphibians, reptiles and birds, and has been suspected among sharks in the wild. The scientists who studied the Virginia and Nebraska sharks said the newly formed pups acquired one set of chromosomes when the mother's chromosomes split during egg development, then united anew.

Absent the chromosomes present in the male sperm, the offspring of an asexual conception have reduced genetic diversity and, the scientists said, may be at a disadvantage for surviving in the wild. A pup, for instance, can be more susceptible to congenital disorders and diseases.

The scientists said their findings offer "intriguing questions" about how frequently automictic parthenogenesis occurs in the wild.

"It is possible that parthenogenesis could become more common in these sharks if population densities become so low that females have trouble finding mates," said Mahmood Shivji, one of the scientists and director of the Guy Harvey Research Institute at Nova Southeastern University in Florida.

The DNA fingerprinting techniques used by the scientists are identical to those used in human paternity testing.

Chapman, who is with the Institute for Ocean Conservation Science at Stony Brook, was assisted in the study by Beth Firchau of the Virginia Aquarium.

Chapman and Shivji were on the team that made the first discovery of virgin birth involving the Nebraska shark.

___

On the Net:

Virginia Aquarium: http://www.vmsm.com

Stony Brook School of Marine and Atmospheric Science: http://www.somas.stonybrook.edu

Oceanographic Center of Nova Southeastern University: http://www.nova.edu/ocean/ghri.

My conclusion: God can create in any which way He pleases!

hey chris
always knew you have an aptitude for reality.

One of the facts i noticed about christianity is the fact that its followers allow open scrutiny of what they believe in, everything is done out in the open, they dont get violent when their faith is questioned unlike our other friends, who get voilent verbally and otherwise(making numerous death threats)when questions are asked about their faith, they delete posts that seek to unearth the truth about the falsehood they believe, the lock threads that have open discourse.All these make it obvious that theres something insecure, some information being 'protected that if the world is allowed to see will be 'damaging' to the pseudo religion.

if you want to try these go to the muslim section and post.

"is muhammad a prophet of violence"?

its wil probably survive 30mins!

I love jesus,he spoke about peace, about love and never for once took a man's life.

anyways copying the bible cant be the same with copying the spirit behind the bible, the holy spirit can't be faked.

jesus is lord!!!

@reindeer:

the holy spirit can't be faked.

Whats the name of the holy spirit? And whats it nature? What did she/he do in history?

We know some of name. His name was Jesus. I am just using the Bible now.
We know who you call father. You say his name is Yahweh, and Jehovah! But Jesus whom you called "lord," called God Eloi. This sound very close to Allah. Try it for size! Then getback to me on this.

I want to humor you alot. The Africans by and large can pronounce the Arabic Shin. They pronounce it sin!
The Indians and all the nations, that could be said to be in the "indian subcontinent can say the aphabet "V". They say it as if it is "W!" The Chinese can say the alphabet "R," but says it "L!" The Hebrews and other semitic nations could easily say Eloi, when the really are saying "Allah!"

Let me know ho wyou make out in this exercise. You see why Jesus can never be "lord!"?

And the gates of hell shall not prevail
Jesus is lord over all.

Alhaji, you know very well im not given to vain arguments, moreso lines that ive seen about 1 billion times from you .

I only pray that you'll come to know this person, i know jesus died for you, the bible says that he loved us even while we were yet sinners. he loves you and wants you,accept him and find peace and rest for your heart,jesus saves.
when all is said and done,arguments dont save, jesus does and i pray that the holy spirit will convict you in your heart that you come to know him. I love you still

jesus is lord!!!

@reindeer

One of the facts i noticed about christianity is the fact that its followers allow open scrutiny of what they believe in, everything is done out in the open, they don't get violent when their faith is questioned unlike our other friends, who get voilent verbally and otherwise(making numerous death threats)when questions are asked about their faith, they delete posts that seek to unearth the truth about the falsehood they believe, the lock threads that have open discourse.All these make it obvious that theres something insecure, some information being 'protected that if the world is allowed to see will be 'damaging' to the pseudo religion.

if you want to try these go to the muslim section and post.

"is muhammad a prophet of violence"?

its wil probably survive 30mins!

I love jesus,he spoke about peace, about love and never for once took a man's life.

anyways copying the bible can't be the same with copying the spirit behind the bible, the holy spirit can't be faked.

jesus is lord!!!

Hey brother, you dont have to be biased when making contribution but at the same time everyone is entitled to his or her opinion and its a free world. You may go the threads and see for yourself. Muslims are available for honest dbring it discussion. There is nothing hidden in the rfeligion and if you think you have, bring it out please

@reindeer
Am glad you noticed, how is your new found friend going for you? Hope good. See part of believing what I do(pilgrim says its deist) involves examining other people's beliefs and how close it obtains to reality. Islam is synonymous with violence and it is the truth, I am not saying christianity does not have its own share because there are really gruesome things that have happened in the bible that christians seem not to see and it disturbs me greatly. The one thing that has been on christianity's side is that it allows for questions it is open in a sense and hence has evolved into a religion that preaches peace. Islam on the other hand is rigid, look at todays world I mean which God will instruct women to cover themselves all over? Its insane most of their practices are inhumane and devoid of emotions, cutting of hands and legs, seriously sick but that is not to say they are not found in the bible. Thing is christians continually find ways to bend beliefs to fit with reality and I applaud that but the muslims just sit back and hope reality would bend to fit their beliefs and that is not happening anytime soon hence they are always on the alert looking for someone who would question why the sharia law does not sound like a stephen king novel to attack.
Anyway have fun.
Cheers.

@Chrisbenegor: I am happy that you are in China. How are the Muslims in China? Are they getting the best of treatment or being repressed? How is the Augar (I hope I spell it correctly) Muslim ethnic people?

How is the non violence religious practice of the Buhhdist, compared to the Christian's pseudo non violent religion. Now look around the world today: The people who have more Nukes than the others are the so called Christians! All the wars, less a couple of them, since Christianity sprang up in human history, i sexclusively the handwork of the practictioners of this non violent religion! Just Imagine it is labelled "Violent?!"

Maybe you think we are all asleep at the wheel. If Christianity is changing, adapting itself to human laws and conditions, regardless of the morality of it, then know that Islam will not. The simple reason is that we will stick with the laws and conditions set forth by God, Allah the Almighty. We will not compromise. Life is too short to compromise in some situations. The stand on religion is at the top of it.

@Chrisbenogor,

Chrisbenogor:

Am glad you noticed, how is your new found friend going for you? Hope good. See part of believing what I do(pilgrim says its deist) involves examining other people's beliefs and how close it obtains to reality.

@Chrisbenogor,

Actually, it is deism (rather than ‘deist’, which is the subject noun – just as the ‘theist’ is to ‘theism’). Anyway, just an asides.

I'm glad that you have this enquiring mind - and on many occasions I've both benefitted from such an attitude as well as appreciated your earnest desire to "examine other people's beliefs". The one thing is that if you take a little time to examine what you believe about other people, you may soon realise how far you have been from reality. Let me explain.

Chrisbenogor:

The one thing that has been on christianity's side is that it allows for questions it is open in a sense and hence has evolved into a religion that preaches peace.

Great.

Chrisbenogor:

Islam on the other hand is rigid, look at todays world I mean which God will instruct women to cover themselves all over? Its insane most of their practices are inhumane and devoid of emotions, cutting of hands and legs, seriously sick but that is not to say they are not found in the bible. Thing is christians continually find ways to bend beliefs to fit with reality and I applaud that but the muslims just sit back and hope reality would bend to fit their beliefs and that is not happening anytime soon hence they are always on the alert looking for someone who would question why the sharia law does not sound like a stephen king novel to attack.

Lol, here is something that might help you understand why you're far from reality when you discuss Christianity in relation to Judaism.

The one thing we note is that there are so many worldviews and faiths in the world today; but the mistake that people often make is to try and bend Christians to come under Judaism, just because we believe in the Old Testament. Just because Christians hold the Old Testament as part of the foundation of their faith does not necessarily or by any stretch make them Jews under Judaism. How in the world anyone would assume that the Old Testament makes Christians worshippers under Judaism?

So, when people assume that Christians have had their own “share” of violence based upon the Old Testament, it is merely confusing the identities and mistaking Christians for Jews. Yes indeed, people have gone to war and fought under flags raised with a ‘Christian’ appellation; but should that be taken to suppose that such people were fighting under the stipulations of the New Testament?

Even so, I used to make the mistake you’re making – by forcing the tenets of Judaism upon Christianity and assuming that Christians who try to show the difference are “bending” the rules. Far from it. When someone is not willing to read issues contextually, then how does dialogue for understanding come in? When con[/b]text is denied, the door opens for [b]pre[/b]text – and that is what so many people have been doing in order to confuse these matters for themselves. It is also for this reason I’ve followed the example of others who have made reference to specific terms like [b]exegesis and eisegesis, and also added that we check the deixis of anything we are investigating in matters like this.

@Chrisbenogor,

So, what’s the difference?

There is a huge difference, for the fact that the Old Testament forms the foundation of so many doctrines in the Christian faith does not make Judaism a continuum into Christianity; nor can they be mixed up as if they were synonymous – for they are not.

For instance, the Old Testament presents God as the Father of His covenant people. But it does not mean that He is ‘Father’ to believers based on the covenant of the old testament; but rather, He is Father to all who worship Him based on the foundation of the new birth by faith in Jesus Christ as the divine Son of God. Yet, both the OT and NT share the same faith and confession that God is ‘FATHER’ (Deuteronomy 32:6 and John 4:23).

Another example:

(a) both the OT and the NT share the same confession as regards:
            –  the nature of man (which is sinful) – Gen. 6:5 and Rom. 3:23
            –  sinful man’s need for redemption – 2 Sam. 7:23 and Rom. 3: 24

However, as you carefully read both the OT and NT, you will find that the basis of redemption in either case is not the same. Redemption under the OT is mainly by the blood of animals or money (see Lev. 25:51-52; Num. 3:48 and compare with 1 Peter 1:18); but in the NT, redemption is by Christ’s blood - Romans 3:24 (see also Eph. 1:7 and Col. 1:14).

One cannot mix issues up like this and wonder if Christians obey the Bible at all. Let me digress for just a bit with an observation and come back to this issue.

[list]Look around you in so many religions and cults of today that claim to have some identity with the Biblical worldview in as much as they point to Jesus Christ in one way or the other – Mormonism, Islam, Grail Message, Arianism, Bahá'ísm, some branch of Hinduism (which regards Jesus as an avatar of God), etc. It is remarkable that while Christianity does not try to “correct” them about how to define their own faiths, the one thing that strikes me is that all these worldviews do their best to “correct” Christians about the Biblical teaching of Jesus Christ! As you may have rightly observed, Christians are open to dialogue: they do not go on rampage when people say unfavourable things against Christ, the Bible, the Church, God, or Christianity. Yet, in Christian apologetics, one should be willing to let Christians define for themselves how they understand their faith in Jesus Christ.[/list]

Now, back to the main gist. When people seek to understand Christianity, the mind should be intelligently open to reasoning based on Christian deixis rather than on any other non-Christian perspective. The confusion for many people arise when they confuse the identities of the people they speak about, such as confusing Christians for Jews; or confusing Judaism for Christianity.

Let me underscore this point further. When anyone mentions the appellation “the Son of God” in respect to Jesus Christ, one immediately thinks of Christianity and Christians. I’ve got news for you. Did you ever wonder that  it is not only Christianity that preaches Jesus as ‘the Son of God’? Bahá'ísm (which was not a Christian faith but rather emerged from Islam) also believes and confesses that Jesus Christ is ‘the Son of God’ – and so do the adherents of the Grail Message. The remarkable thing is that Bahá'ísm will tell you that, while it agrees with both Islam and Judaism, it deeply disagrees on almost everything in Christianity (even though it uses Christian terminology)! When you come across a Bahá'ís and listen for a while, you might easily be taken in and assume you’re listening to a “Christian”!

What then am I trying to say? Simply this: please understand that even though Christians believe in both the OT and NT, they are not Jews under Judaism. This is the mistake many people make and try to force the ceremonies and culture of Jews upon non-Jews and then make everyone who holds the Biblical tenets to necessarily become Jews with a “Christian” tag. In just the same way, even though Bahá'ísm uses Christian terminologies, one should never make the mistake of confusing a Bahá'ís for a ‘Christian’. If you can understand this simple message, the rest should not be tedious to you either. It is because many people often confuse these issues, and that is why they find the wrong grounds for constantly arguing with Christians on the old covenant. Do these people care to also argue these matters with either the Jews, the Bahá'ís, or adherents of the Grail Message who also bend to the Christian confession of Jesus Christ as ‘the Son of God’?

Regards.

@Pilgrim.1: « #279 on: Today at 01:32:20 PM »

@Chrisbenogor,

So, what’s the difference?

There is a huge difference, for the fact that the Old Testament forms the foundation of so many doctrines in the Christian faith does not make Judaism a continuum into Christianity; nor can they be mixed up as if they were synonymous – for they are not.

This exact opinion I want you to think about it. You will see that it applies to Islam, in regards to God and His Angels, Mercy and Justice, Prophets, and Gods relationship to worshippers and the whole of mankind. You see, two, can play this game.

For instance, the Old Testament presents God as the Father of His covenant people. But it does not mean that He is ‘Father’ to believers based on the covenant of the old testament; but rather, He is Father to all who worship Him based on the foundation of the new birth by faith in Jesus Christ as the divine Son of God. Yet, both the OT and NT share the same faith and confession that God is ‘FATHER’ (Deuteronomy 32:6 and John 4:23).

Interesting concept. But full of misleading inuendos. The reality with God is that He, alone is the Creator! He created Adam from nothingness. Didn't He? Then clone from the body of Adam, Eve, who was Adam's mate, except that she was of a different gender! Was there an example of either of these human beings, until God decided what He decided? Is there a need for God Almighty to have a son, a partner? What is the purpose of such a son or partner? Is God not the one who forgave Adam and Eve after they have disobeyed his commandment, upon their seeking forgiveness?

Is a different way to create mankind going to be difficult with this Creator who created anew? Was Jesus not a human, who ate, slept, and do all things human do,including urinating and removing waste from his body, as gas, liquid and solid? Both Judaism and Christianity are regarded, like Buhhdism and others as regarded as disbeliefs. This is the position of Islam.

Is God not the same God that declared that Satan has no mercy from Him? And a proof of this is that Satan never seek forgiveness from God, ever! I want any one of the Christians, or whatever, to show where Satan has ever seeked any form of forgiveness from God! To sugarcoat a bad medicine, will not make it go down easy, especially it the sugar dissolves before swallowing is done!

Another example:

(a) both the OT and the NT share the same confession as regards:
– the nature of man (which is sinful) – Gen. 6:5 and Rom. 3:23
– sinful man’s need for redemption – 2 Sam. 7:23 and Rom. 3: 24

However, as you carefully read both the OT and NT, you will find that the basis of redemption in either case is not the same. Redemption under the OT is mainly by the blood of animals or money (see Lev. 25:51-52; Num. 3:48 and compare with 1 Peter 1:18); but in the NT, redemption is by Christ’s blood - Romans 3:24 (see also Eph. 1:7 and Col. 1:14).

While both of you struggle for who gives the bigger "blood sacrifice," Islam has no need of any "blood bath!" It simply say Oh God forgive me. Allah the Almighty God does accept "Sincere repentance!" He forgives, by His Mercy all sins! When there is no sin, one has practiced redemption. One has been redeemed.

One cannot mix issues up like this and wonder if Christians obey the Bible at all. Let me digress for just a bit with an observation and come back to this issue.


Look around you in so many religions and cults of today that claim to have some identity with the Biblical worldview in as much as they point to Jesus Christ in one way or the other – Mormonism, Islam, Grail Message, Arianism, Bahá'ísm, some branch of Hinduism (which regards Jesus as an avatar of God), etc.

You forgot Judaism that disregarded Jesus completely to nothingness. You also forgot that you dubiously regard all these religions, including Judaism, whom you stole their people, say if I satrt from Israel all th way to Jesus, as disbelievers! While Islam at least spoke about the fact that the Children of israel were one time believers, and the companions of Jesus were believers, you condemn or claimed the unclaimables about the Israel and his Children. You call Israel a trickster both with his brother and raising of animals in the land that he ran to to escape that certain death from his bother!

What will you say about Taoism and other Asiatic religions and practices that do not even care about Christianity and or jesus? PLease when you give us information, be kind to give us the full garmut. Finally, just because you are being corrected by Islam about your wrong concept about Jesus is not a crime. But something to take to heart by you and heed correction.

The correction given by Islam is the same thing as if a person who is ill is given the appropriate medicine to take. But he or she can refuse it, and the consequence of it is dire! You have refuesd to accept correction so far as a Christian! Don't blame any muslim in the day of Judgement!

It is remarkable that while Christianity does not try to “correct” them about how to define their own faiths, the one thing that strikes me is that all these worldviews do their best to “correct” Christians about the Biblical teaching of Jesus Christ! As you may have rightly observed, Christians are open to dialogue: they do not go on rampage when people say unfavourable things against Christ, the Bible, the Church, God, or Christianity. Yet, in Christian apologetics, one should be willing to let Christians define for themselves how they understand their faith in Jesus Christ.

You need not correct anyone, since you have brought out the booms, whips, food in one hand and Bible in the other! You only force feed people with your belief and dogma that it entails.

Its interesting to see that you who was a terror in the worst way, against the Christian, while you are lying about the prophet is making the statement above! Allah's messenger stated that those who tell lies about him should take their place in Hellfire. Even lying about an ordinary human being deserves punishment.

And it is interesting that you least church as one of the things you do not fight about. I wonder whta the Catholics will say about you on their belief and sect which has been around, over or close to a thousand years before Protestant's!?

olabowale:


[s]This exact opinion I want you to think about it. You will see that it applies to Islam, in regards to God and His Angels, Mercy and Justice, Prophets, and Gods relationship to worshippers and the whole of mankind. You see, two, can play this game.


Interesting concept. But full of misleading inuendos. The reality with God is that He, alone is the Creator! He created Adam from nothingness. Didn't He? Then clone from the body of Adam, Eve, who was Adam's mate, except that she was of a different gender! Was there an example of either of these human beings, until God decided what He decided? Is there a need for God Almighty to have a son, a partner? What is the purpose of such a son or partner? Is God not the one who forgave Adam and Eve after they have disobeyed his commandment, upon their seeking forgiveness?

Is a different way to create mankind going to be difficult with this Creator who created anew? Was Jesus not a human, who ate, slept, and do all things human do,including urinating and removing waste from his body, as gas, liquid and solid? Both Judaism and Christianity are regarded, like Buhhdism and others as regarded as disbeliefs. This is the position of Islam.

Is God not the same God that declared that Satan has no mercy from Him? And a proof of this is that Satan never seek forgiveness from God, ever! I want any one of the Christians, or whatever, to show where Satan has ever seeked any form of forgiveness from God! To sugarcoat a bad medicine, will not make it go down easy, especially it the sugar dissolves before swallowing is done!



While both of you struggle for who gives the bigger "blood sacrifice," Islam has no need of any "blood bath!" It simply say Oh God forgive me. Allah the Almighty God does accept "Sincere repentance!" He forgives, by His Mercy all sins! When there is no sin, one has practiced redemption. One has been redeemed.


You forgot Judaism that disregarded Jesus completely to nothingness. You also forgot that you dubiously regard all these religions, including Judaism, whom you stole their people, say if I satrt from Israel all th way to Jesus, as disbelievers! While Islam at least spoke about the fact that the Children of israel were one time believers, and the companions of Jesus were believers, you condemn or claimed the unclaimables about the Israel and his Children. You call Israel a trickster both with his brother and raising of animals in the land that he ran to to escape that certain death from his bother!

What will you say about Taoism and other Asiatic religions and practices that do not even care about Christianity and or jesus? PLease when you give us information, be kind to give us the full garmut. Finally, just because you are being corrected by Islam about your wrong concept about Jesus is not a crime. But something to take to heart by you and heed correction.

The correction given by Islam is the same thing as if a person who is ill is given the appropriate medicine to take. But he or she can refuse it, and the consequence of it is dire! You have refuesd to accept correction so far as a Christian! Don't blame any muslim in the day of Judgement!



You need not correct anyone, since you have brought out the booms, whips, food in one hand and Bible in the other! You only force feed people with your belief and dogma that it entails.

Its interesting to see that you who was a terror in the worst way, against the Christian, while you are lying about the prophet is making the statement above! Allah's messenger stated that those who tell lies about him should take their place in Hellfire. Even lying about an ordinary human being deserves punishment.

And it is interesting that you least church as one of the things you do not fight about. I wonder whta the Catholics will say about you on their belief and sect which has been around, over or close to a thousand years before Protestant's!?[/s]

I knew you would not be able to contain yourself where you see my username. But my points were addressed directly to Chrisbenogor and not an argument for or against Islam. People have formed enough opinions for themselves to know the difference.

@olabowole
You sound like a broken record, it is always about Jesus being God to you nothing else matters that is only when you like to scream and even at that you cannot do it well. Your posts lack the ability to show an undecided reader that you are being rational you just go on and on about Jesus. I have said it a million times here why on earth do you think islam is right?
@pilgrim
Long time oh, I certainly missed your insights. Now down to business, your points made sense I should be saying jews and not christians point well taken. There is a small hitch though, I would like to say christianity takes judaism a step further by also believing in the new testament. That means you are not in dispute that God ordered those mass genocides as can be seen in the Torah and the book of joshua. That God struck someone dead for not allowing the ark to fall, God putting his seal of approval on Jehu's actions when if murdered Ahab and his sons, the same God and so on the list is long.
That is my problem, not that it is the christians that did it but it is the same God that ordered it you believe in, personally I cannot believe in a God that would order those mindless killing of women and children its sick, and that is where my problem with Jesus comes in, he had every right to say plainly stop all this things but clearly he did not. A God that orders to kill people who are in violation of non violent commandments is not one I want to believe in, death sentences were in place for those that violate these commandments.
Pilgrim I could go on but this is one of the foundations of why I refuse to believe in Christianity.
Cheers.

Its interesting to see that you who was a terror in the worst way, against the Christian, while you are lying about the prophet is making the statement above! Allah's messenger stated that those who tell lies about him should take their place in Hellfire. Even lying about an ordinary human being deserves punishment.

hmm , Olabowale u are shooting urself in the foot,

Does that mean ur Alllah is talking from both sides of the same mouth wen ur Alllah stipulates that its permitted for muusslims to lie to non-muuslims so long as its for the benefit of iisslam,

Olabowale, in as much as i pray for your salvation through Christ, i also fear for your life because i know that your muusslim brothers and sisters would not even hesitate to try to kill you once they realise u are denouncing alllah,

A Saudi Arabian father killed his own daughter for becoming a christian.
A Palestinian son of a Hamas stalwart fled palestine because he became a Christian,

The list goes on,

The issues here is the soul of men,

The Devil via issllam and others wants to keep people in boundage, Christ via His goodnews wants to set people free,

The choice is urs ,

@Chrisbenogor,

Chrisbenogor:

@pilgrim
Long time oh, I certainly missed your insights. Now down to business, your points made sense I should be saying jews and not christians point well taken.

No worries.

Chrisbenogor:

There is a small hitch though, I would like to say christianity takes judaism a step further by also believing in the new testament.

Lol, I may not actually get you here. Christianity does not take Judaism further - as I said, Christianity is not a continuum of Judaism. Christianity did not start out as Judaism which then gradulally morph into the NT. No; rather, the OT prophesied the blessings of the NT - and for all that, even the OT prophesied that the old covenant was not what God was establishing for all the nations of the world.

So, you may wonder as to the difference between the OT (O[/b]ld [b]T[/b]estament) and [b]OC (O[/b]ld [b]C[/b]ovenant). The OT is a specific body of documents in the Bible incusive of Genesis to Malachi; while the OC is the basis of Judaism as a distinct faith on its own ratified by the blood of animals.

Does this then mean we as Christians don't "believe" in the OT? Yes, we do; but as far as the OC is concerned, we as Christians are not called to live our lives under that covenant. Why? For the very same reason that was specifically delivered unto the Jews and not to any other nation -

(a) Deuteronomy 5:2-3
[b]²[/b]The LORD our God made a covenant with [b]us in Horeb.
³[/b]The LORD [b]made not this covenant with our fathers,
but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

(b) Romans 3:19
Now we know that what things soever the law saith,
it saith to them who are under the law:
that every mouth may be stopped,
and all the world may become guilty before God.

It is helpful to note these point, so that people are better informed when discussing issues of Judaism and mixing them up with Christianity.

Chrisbenogor:

That means you are not in dispute that God ordered those mass genocides as can be seen in the Torah and the book of joshua. That God struck someone dead for not allowing the ark to fall, God putting his seal of approval on Jehu's actions when if murdered Ahab and his sons, the same God and so on the list is long.

I don't have any problem with issues like that - and in the past I used precisely that same line of thought to attack Christians and Jews, as if my own (former) religion was any better than those I accused. In the same way, when people say that they have problem believeing in God just because of the wars they read of in the OT, I often wonder if those same people have taken the time to consider what mankind would have done to his humanity without the help of God. Nobody who proposes this line of thought ever stops for a moment to think about the murders and approval to murder that have been perpetrated without religion involved!

So, while I am not going to make excuses and euphemise those issues, I would not make that the basis for my decision to believe in God. Even without God, people have gone to war and destroyed themselves long before those passages that are often referred to. Example, I wonder why nobody using such excuses ever turns for a moment to think of Genesis 6:5 when man became uncontrollably wicked. Is the situation any different today? Or, are we going to pretend it has always been fair weather with nations who lived without any religious affinity whatsoever? What does history tell us, if we but care a little to find out?

Now, what about leaving Genesis 6 and fast forward to the Ark stumbling for which the man you referred to was struck (Uzza - 1 Chron. 13:10)? Do I still believe in the God who acted in that way? I admit - yes, I do - and I do so with all my heart. What people have failed to realize here is something called the sovereignty and holiness of God. But, of course, the holiness of God has always been a terrifying thing to behold, because man has always fixed his eyes on things that are clearly a departure from His holiness and tried to present God on man's fallible level.

How do I try to "defend" this issues?

I do not "try" to defend them. No, I have no answers and have never tried to explain or defend them on some esoteric explanations. Surprising as it may be, I am not called to "defend" such actions - for if I offer my own euphemistic exculpations and yet arrive at something clearly wrong even though it placates men, what value would it have achieved for either me or you?

Here is something that we just fail to understand: Biblical apologetics is not about "defending" issues that we find unpalatable, because that s not what the big picture is. Talk about warfare and murders and all other vices - everybody's hand is stained with blood, and let the atheist not come here with a hubris of pretending that no atheist has ever killed anyone. However, Biblical apologetics (at least, for me) has only one main aim found in 1 Peter 3:15 & 16 --

__________________________________________________________________

But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer
to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness
and fear: Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you,
as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation
in Christ.
__________________________________________________________________

Let me break it down the way it has helped me: that verse is positing that Biblical apologetics is useful when applied to 3 things:

(a) my hope: reasons why I am a Christian; and not why I should argue for not being an atheist

(b) my conscience: the convictions of my own heart; and not the pretences endless arguments

(c) others' false accusations: based on my lifestyle, people will always seek to accuse a Christian of all
sorts of things - for simply being a Christian.

I know. . . I know. . . one may say that I was digressing there. But certainly, I have answered the question in simple terms: it is not in my place to proffer some euphemistic and esoteric "explanation" about those warfares. In as much as I do not have an answer as to why non-religious people have also been involved in some of the bloodiest inhumane things in history, I do not see why it is only the warfares of the OT that should be the excuse for why they cannot believe in God. I facetiously sometimes ask why they would choose to remain atheists and irreligious of we know that the hands of atheists are as stained with blood from murders in human history! I have never seen such people honestly faced up to make the same excuses to "defend" the murders of atheists and claim the same thing: "Oh, that's just why I cannot be a human being!"

Chrisbenogor:

That is my problem, not that it is the christians that did it but it is the same God that ordered it you believe in, personally I cannot believe in a God that would order those mindless killing of women and children its sick,

I understand; and no, I cannot be judgemental on you. It is not a problem for me to believe in that same God. Mindless killing of women and children - "sick", is it? Okay - I guess we should take a look (an HONEST look) at the same mindlessly sick games of atheistic murderers like Stalin and Hitler. . . and let's see if it makes us feel any better. I know a lot of people would like to parry round these issues and try to make excuses for Hitler and Stalin; some even claiming that Hitler was a Catholic. Mindless people who never reason. If someone derides the same people he murders, does that make him any more a "Catholic" on the basis of his murders? So, what's my point? Simply this: even without the help of God (as in Genesis 6:5) , man has done unprintable things to his fellow. Many people who carry out state-sponsored brutality (such as in Communist China) do not wait for a religion or "god" to believe in before they murder "women and children". . . and yet, we don't read of people using that as excuse why they cannot believe that they are Chinese citizens.

The one thing I appreciate in discussing with you is your forthrightness and calmness to reason, rather than a forced and deliberate irrationality to hyperventilate on religious issues, just because it is "religion". However, if we take the facade away fro a moment and honestly examine our assumptions, we would defintely find enough reasons why we don't want to be human beings and alive - afterall, those who have done more grievious things than we read in the OT have never claimed to be religious; and we still see them even in our day. We could make the same excuse as ~~

'Communist China carries out State-sponsored brutality --
therefore, I don't want to be Chinese'

'Hitler and Stalin were atheists and murdered millions of people --
therefore, I don't even want to be a human being'

'Obasanjo being a Nigerian, did so many politically shameful things --
therefore, I don't want to be a Niegrian'

Haba! Just as we may smile benignly at these excuses as sorry redresses, is it not the same thing we are saying with the idea that just because we read the history of the Jews, therefore I don't want to be a believer in God?

Chrisbenogor:

and that is where my problem with Jesus comes in, he had every right to say plainly stop all this things but clearly he did not. A God that orders to kill people who are in violation of non violent commandments is not one I want to believe in, death sentences were in place for those that violate these commandments.

I understand you. Jesus did not come to ask men to stop being human. He came to do more than "speaking" - He laid down His own life for us.

This is the problem many people have (including me when I wandered in ignorance of the meaning of Christianity) - we often thing that Christianity is a matter of somebody saying this or that. The words of Jesus are important, no doubt; but merely speaking does not define the mission of Jesus as "Christ". Let me remind you that Genesis 3 (promise of redemption in Christ) came before Genesis 6 (man's denegerate wickedness). Man knew that he had to stop his wickedness as plainly as we can find in Genesis 4 (where Cain murdered his own brother Abel even though the former had been warned before that time - verse 7). Do we not find that man was warned enough to stop his wickedness before Genesis 6? Why then is it said God's Spirit would no longer strive with man (Genesis 6:3), if not that the Spirit of God had been warning man's conscience about these same evil that later became full-blown when we come to verse 5?

Besides, one may claim that he cannot believe in a "god" who "orders" murders, because Jesus should have just announced to everyone to stop all these killings. Uhm, even if He did (Matt. 26:52), did man come to himself and stop the killings? I have said time and again already that man is a murderer without God's help, and no amount of shouting from any platform can help man stop his own killings, brutality and murders. Now, these things being so, would it not be utter foolishness on my part to keep searching for a "god" who is so complacent and speaks the cardboard religion of 'peace to every man' in a world that has no respect for itself?

Chrisbenogor, I have searched like you are doing. I have made the same assertions as you have. I have read and delved deep into the minds and philosophies of many worldviews (except the occult). No matter how you slice it, you will find the type of "god" you are looking for, believe me. You can only find one thing, though: the God who shows man who exactly he is without His help, and yet offers divine love in His Son.

It doesn't matter how philosophical one excuses these issues or argue against them. For me, man's decadent history did not start at the wars in later books of the OT - one needs to go back to as early as Genesis 4 and 6 and see man's heart for what it truly is, before any understanding of the subsequent history.

Chrisbenogor:

Pilgrim I could go on but this is one of the foundations of why I refuse to believe in Christianity.
Cheers.

I understand you, bro. The thing is that the very same rule we excuse ourselves upon doesn't stand any chances when really scrutinized for what they are. Regards.

but as far as the OC is concerned, we as Christians are not called to live our lives under that covenant.

OK so one can basically ignore all instructions in the old testament, let me be more clear all those instructions that accompanied the ten commandments and the commandments itself are Christians bound by them? I asked this before if you can remember but that is even by the way side,

I do not see why it is only the warfares of the OT that should be the excuse for why they cannot believe in God. I facetiously sometimes ask why they would choose to remain atheists and irreligious of we know that the hands of atheists are as stained with blood from murders in human history! I have never seen such people honestly faced up to make the same excuses to "defend" the murders of atheists and claim the same thing: "Oh, that's just why I cannot be a human being!"

No they are an excuse it is the way they were carried out that is difficult to comprehend that the loving father who ordered it sent his son, I do not have a problem with the war, even though quite clearly the Hebrews did provoke it most of the time but no problem you can kill the soldiers, but the women and children that is sick and there is no excuse for that, take the case of the guy who stole some gold after Jericho fell down, not only was he killed his family was killed too and they were burnt, that is sick plain plain sick.

'Hitler and Stalin were atheists and murdered millions of people --
therefore, I don't even want to be a human being'
'Obasanjo being a Nigerian, did so many politically shameful things --
therefore, I don't want to be a Niegrian

'


Hitler, Stalin and all atheists who killed people fall into the same category and I give no excuses for them or anyone regardless of color religion or political affiliation anyone who engages in killing the innocent and defenseless , if Hitler and Stalin did drop a code and I am living by that code or even looking at that code as some sort of moral guide then I am guilty.

To make it clearer would be more like saying Hitler was a German dictator that murdered people, would that make anyone not want to be a German, certainly not! but if Hitler were a prophet of GOD then I do not think anyone would want to associate himself with that religion, see you cannot help being a German if you were born one, but religion is a choice and God does not change, he has been there and reading the history of the Jews gives us an insight into the nature of God who the Christians still believe in.

man has done unprintable things to his fellow. Many people who carry out state-sponsored brutality (such as in Communist China) do not wait for a religion or "god" to believe in before they murder "women and children". . . and yet, we don't read of people using that as excuse why they cannot believe that they are Chinese citizens.

Again I think the assertion isn't quite the same thing as what we are discussing, we are not born christian, we are talking about the being that supposedly put us in existence, yes man is wicked no doubt you are right, man will do bad things without order from God again you are right, but that does not take an inch away that they were utterly sick, but I think it is Ludicrous for God himself to join the fray only to send his son later to redeem man, theory doesn't cut it for me.

If Obasanjo or Abacha was in the history of the bible say maybe in the place of King David, many people today will not have a problem with what he did, they would say it is not in my place to question why he had death squad that unleashed mayhem on the people. Anyway sha every one with their own.

Cheers.

@Chrisbenogor,

Chrisbenogor:

OK so one can basically ignore all instructions in the old testament, let me be more clear all those instructions that accompanied the ten commandments and the commandments itself are Christians bound by them? I asked this before if you can remember but that is even by the way side,

Yes, I remember we were having a discussion on the Law in relation to the NT, before it was invaded. The decalogue (Ten Commandments) in principle apply to the Christian life - but again, one has to ask a basic question of what covenant he/she is asking to live by the principles of the decalogue.

Chrisbenogor:

No they are an excuse it is the way they were carried out that is difficult to comprehend that the loving father who ordered it sent his son, I do not have a problem with the war, even though quite clearly the Hebrews did provoke it most of the time but no problem you can kill the soldiers, but the women and children that is sick and there is no excuse for that, take the case of the guy who stole some gold after Jericho fell down, not only was he killed his family was killed too and they were burnt, that is sick plain plain sick.

The problem here is that the murders we sometimes excuse on the hands of men in warfare without religion also involve women and children as victims. If it is sick just because you read it in a religious text, is it any better to excuse the history of these issues outside such texts? You see, the difficulty that many people make for themselves here is to magnify the case of Bible warfare and pretend that we do not find a sicker event in our own history around the world outside of a religious text. Why are we not complaining as much about those cases?

Chrisbenogor:

Hitler, Stalin and all atheists who killed people fall into the same category and I give no excuses for them or anyone regardless of color religion or political affiliation anyone who engages in killing the innocent and defenseless , if Hitler and Stalin did drop a code and I am living by that code or even looking at that code as some sort of moral guide then I am guilty.

Lol, you simply may be unaware that you're living by that code. What is the code? I would leave you to go and find out about the basic premise of their philosophical ideology of a life without God.

Chrisbenogor:

To make it clearer would be more like saying Hitler was a German dictator that murdered people, would that make anyone not want to be a German, certainly not! but if Hitler were a prophet of GOD then I do not think anyone would want to associate himself with that religion, see you cannot help being a German if you were born one, but religion is a choice and God does not change, he has been there and reading the history of the Jews gives us an insight into the nature of God who the Christians still believe in.

There's something that you have touched upon here - I deliberately left it in my previous reply. And that is this: Hitler was not born a German. Go and do a little research, and then come back and see that just in the same way, people cannot afford to be narrow about this issue and blame it on 'I was not born a German'. That is why I extended this issue to look outside of Hitler and talk about State-sponsored brutality as in the example of communist China. What is the connection there? Simply this - people choose to join Communism in just the way you highlighted for religion. They could leave Communism as well - at a very dire cost upon themselves.

I am not supposing to draw a parallel between Communism, atheism and Christianity. Rather, I'm asking that we calm down and look at a basic principle here: just because one finds this painful event of warfare should not be excuse enough to reject the other issues involved in any worldview. If I were looking at atheism, for instance, it is not Hitler, Stalin, Communist China that would be the big issue for me. Rather, I would be asking more serious questions that those and trying to find a foundation for the raison d'etre of my very core existence. You would agree with me here, at least, that the matters of sad warfare experienced in the hands of atheists is not the decider for me - and that is the same thing why excuses on warfare as reason for rejecting the Christian faith is not substance enough to form a well reasoned postulation.

Chrisbenogor:

Again I think the assertion isn't quite the same thing as what we are discussing, we are not born christian, we are talking about the being that supposedly put us in existence, yes man is wicked no doubt you are right, man will do bad things without order from God again you are right, but that does not take an inch away that they were utterly sick, but I think it is Ludicrous for God himself to join the fray only to send his son later to redeem man, theory doesn't cut it for me.

Redemption did not come as an after-thought, and that was the issue I wanted you to note. When people jump from Genesis 3 straight on to the warfares, the whole point is missed by a couple of miles. Of course, redemption would have taken place if we so wished it on a human level - but that would be asking more questions for ourselves for which we cannot even attempt to answer. Now, if God "joined the fray" (even ignoring the fact He already warned about the consequences of choosing sin over our humanity), how does that settle the question of our own search for something, someone, somehow, and somewhere about the questions we ask for ourselves?

Chrisbenogor:

If Obasanjo or Abacha was in the history of the bible say maybe in the place of King David, many people today will not have a problem with what he did, they would say it is not in my place to question why he had death squad that unleashed mayhem on the people. Anyway sha every one with their own.

Precisely my point - we see the past and are many times unable to translate it into the present. We question David and the kings of Israel; but we make passive excuses for men in ourr own time. . . or at best, we euphemise their own actions. As you said, efry-bodi get 'im own talk.

Warm regards.