The many opportunities that exist in the area of web development in Nigeria are not being taken by Nigerians especially where these opportunities require programming knowledge as more and more businesses or corporations are now demanding websites that are not just static websites.

Many website owners believe they want something more than 3 - 10 pages of static website with some animations. They want to achieve tasks online, they want their clients to be able to achieve certain tasks right on their websites.

Agreed, it takes time to learn programming and it takes practice, logical reasoning and experience to become a good programmer but that is where he money is.

You can do a project that takes you just 3 days and pocket N400,000.00 just like that.

A situation whereby a very great majority of web developers are either web designers or graphic designers is certainly not in the best interest of Nigerians as the likes of google, yahoo, youtube etc did not become successful by being static websites.

Anyone that wants to make real money should consider learning programming, not the usual claims that we see people make even when they don't have anything to backup those claims.

As a typical example of what you can achieve as a programmer I spent less than 3 days developing (from conception to completion) a database driven website for States to use in Nigeria.

Comes with an admin interface where every single thing can be changed or updated without any need to contact the developer.

So, if it takes less than 3 days to setup this website you can imagine what web applications Nigerians could come up with if we have a lot of programmers who will come to the table with many wonderful ideas that could generate money in a matter of days, weeks or months without having to do anything illegal.

The link to the website is - www.jwspreview.com/stategov

The website may not be flashy or beautiful but it has more useful functionalities when compared to a lot of government websites that are just static websites that are hardly updated.

Currently I am having a tough time deciding what to do with the website as I intended it to be given away to all the State Governments for free but 100% of the people I have discussed this free offer with believe that I should not do it.

The next couple of hours or days may decide the direction the 3 days project will go.

Very true, Afam. Static pages can only take you so far. There has to be some interaction with the user, and developing dynamic web pages (pages that talk to the back-end databases) are they way to go. However, the schools in Nigeria have done a total disservice to the current generation of computer science graduates. As you suggested, they have to learn and pickup application development skills on their own. It's true that programming is very rewarding, however it's also very challenging. So, I would not advice anyone that does not have OK analytical skills or that does not like problem solving to go into it.

@bossman
True talk and also inpatient people should not venture into programming at all,cus they tend to get easily frustrated.i honestly think,we Nigerians should step up our game in the areas of web development,lets leave the .html and go the dynamic way.Lets begin to build real web applications that will not only be used by us but the world.its really dissapointing coming to this forum which happens to be a big one,seeing webmaster-client discussions,nothing like 'i am building the next facebook,ebay,youtube,google'.Please lets step things up.

My 2 cents

and to throw in my 2 cents:

I don't think it is the university's job to teach a student any one programming language. It is their job to train you to think and in the case of computer science, train you to analyze a problem and come up with a solution. Once you have that ability to think, it is up to you the student to stay up to date with the latest technologies, thus keeping one's self marketable. Take me for example: when I was in school, I was trained in C, C++, Assembly Language, and Paschal. To this very day (from 9 years ago), I am yet to use any of the aforementioned languages. However, by keeping up with the latest trends, I have used ASP, JSP, PHP and a little Java.

Per the discussion regarding building sites vs apps, I will say that given what I have seen in Nigeria, in the area of web development at least, you have a situation where majority of pple/businesses don't even have a basic 5-page website. Without this, then it is going to be hard, in my opinion, to get them to think in terms of apps.

As far as the googles, youtubes, etc go, we have them all out there. We just lack a business objective/purpose. All we want to do is copy, in an attempt to make ourselves feel good that we can code a google site. The most ridiculous are the dating sites. Then we pepper the site with google ads in an attempt to make money. If all we do is copy, then we can't go far. We have to think original, out of the box. We have to challenge ourselves to do what isn't out there yet.

I guess with my comments, this post now has 4 cents

N400,000!

Wow! Im imagining what i wld do if i landed such a contract
Travel around the world mayb

Af m, hv u been pd that amt b4

i remember such figures when i first came to nland, alas they were just formed up figures
it took time to learn that u dont blieve wot pple post
d ones posting 500k, charge 20k

webguru:

Af m, hv u been pd that amt before

i remember such figures when i first came to nland, alas they were just formed up figures
it took time to learn that u don't blieve wot people post
d ones posting 500k, charge 20k

N400,000.00 for a web application is not much in the real sense especially when you spend anything more than a week to get the job done because if you divide that amount by the number of days spent you will get to see that it is not much.

That said, I agree that many people lie on public forums and make claims that cannot be substantiated. That was part of the reasons why I made it clear I was done with the Webmasters section of this forum. I cannot stand lies and fake claims.

Yes, I have been paid over that amount on several occasions and if you can solve problems using programming as a tool you too can make much more than that.

The companies don't pay you for the service you are rendering but for the value of that service, think in that direction and you will understand why a company will pay millions to get jobs done well even when others can quote 5% of the amount for the same job.

webguru:
Yes, you can get paid that amount.  It all depends on who you are approaching and how you present yourself.  Not to brag but I have charged 230K for a standard website (as in no DB or interaction.  Just threw in a few eye candy here and there to make the client say, "uuuuuuh" and "aaaah" and have charged 340K for a web app complete with DB and ability to pay via paypal.  Again, it all depends on who you work with and how you prevent yourself. 

I personally would rather stay the whole year and do 1 or 2 sites at 300K than do 100 sites at 50K.  Why? because I have noticed that those who pay low are the ones who give you the most trouble.  In fact, I spent the first 7 months of this year with not a single job.  Now, I am overwhelmed.    When you charge more and better yet, can justify why you charge that high, you start to notice that the way they look at you changes.  In fact, they yield to you with respect to your judgment because they know you know what you are doing.  Perhaps, Afam can affirm to this.  Of course, chances are that you can't just waltz in somewhere and start charging millions.  It starts one step at a time.  You steadily build your portfolio and word gets around.  Finally, another thing that I have come to observe is, the more you brief the client on progress, the higher they rank you.  I send emails at least every other day, I call to make sure everything is okay and if I tell them I will be done with a site in 2 weeks, I make sure I actually finish it in half the time.

Bottomline, steadily build your portfolio, and be true to yourself.  If it means staying the whole year not doing a single site, so be it.  Sprinkle your self-confidence and self-worth with  help from God, and the sky is the limit.

It all boils down to relevant knowledge and necessary skills combined with a very high level of professional integrity.

I have written cheques sometimes running into hundreds of thousands of naira to clients as a way of refunds for projects even over 80% for reasons ranging from unlimited scope growth to insults which I always remind my clients that the money paid for projects is strictly for the projects and does not give anyone the right to insult a service provider.

I have noticed that some clients talk down on developers especially when they have been short changed in the past and they carry this along and pass it on to the next developer they come across.

I always make it clear that what I owe my clients is to deliver on any projects based on the terms of reference and promises made. Friendship is completely optional and as a professional I believe that services rendered must be paid for even though sometimes I elect to do complete refunds so that I don't have any form of distractions whatsoever even though I always make it clear that none is entitled to any refunds as I never default on any project I handle, it's just that one must stick to a high level of professional integrity at all times.

I have had to turn down projects (alternative energy anyway) running into hundreds of millions of naira and in one extreme case billions based on principles and integrity.

It's your choice how you relate with people or how you make money.

I believe any intellectually inclined business is the way to go for the young and hardworking ones because there is always a shortage of people that can do these jobs and you cannot be scared of someone with lots of money running you out of business as programming is not a capital intensive business so no need to fear the likes of Dangote getting into the business at all.

yawa-ti-de:

I personally would rather stay the whole year and do 1 or 2 sites at 300K than do 100 sites at 50K.  Why? because I have noticed that those who pay low are the ones who give you the most trouble.  In fact, I spent the first 7 months of this year with not a single job.  Now, I am overwhelmed.    When you charge more and better yet, can justify why you charge that high, you start to notice that the way they look at you changes.  In fact, they yield to you with respect to your judgment because they know you know what you are doing. 

Bottomline, steadily build your portfolio, and be true to yourself.  If it means staying the whole year not doing a single site, so be it.  Sprinkle your self-confidence and self-worth with  help from God, and the sky is the limit.

Some clients laugh when I tell them that I would rather watch Tom and Jerry than do a site for N100,000.00 based on the features and functionality needed if the price should be around N500,000.00. It is better to do 10 projects for say N400,000.00 each than for you to do 1000 projects for say N20,000.00.

Another important issue here is the terms of payment. I have found out that projects with 100% down payments are the best because the client will only be interested in you being able to deliver on promises made. When they need new features they understand that there will be cost implications.

On the other hand when you collect advance payment chances are that clients will always ask for more and because you still have your money pending probably until the completion of the project unnecessary disagreements come up and in most cases either or both parties will feel shortchanged.

So, get 100% payment for your projects. Some will say it is not possible for companies to pay 100% down payment but trust me if they believe you can do the job they will willingly pay you the 100% requested.

This is why it is important for you to have previous jobs you can point them to. Even if you do not have clients develop pet projects that will help you learn more and try out features that you like. Someone may be looking for an application that is just like your pet project. It has happened to me before.

It all depend on the level of your professionalism.
I don't see myself working on a project that involves database interaction and will do it for 100k.
Sometimes, when you price yourself too cheap, you may even loose the job, because the client will
think that this person will not deliver.

I marvel sometimes, when I see people selling themselve too cheap. Maybe we don't understand how to calculate the price of a project.

Weather you have an office or not dosen't matter : Before evaluating the cost of a project, take into considration the time and number of days that the project will cost you. Put into consideration your effort, office bill, light bill, generator bill and other miscellanous expenses that the project will consume.

Good service deserve good pay. Render good service and recieve good pay.

One love all programmers!

Yeah,  I feel you guys.


But my own point is that programming is a very challenging tasks.


And to me there is no good market for programmers as it's for developers or i'm I getting it wrong?


please if you find market for programmers i'm here.



Though, people say programming lets you get older than your age, yet I still love it.
The future is very bright

And to me there is no good market for programmers as it's for developers or i'm I getting it wrong?

Though, people say programming lets you get older than your age, yet I still love it.

There is a good market for programmers/developers (the 2 terms are synonymous ), anywhere in the world. If you are not having any luck, chances are that either you aren't doing anything to make yourself marketable, you aren't living in a city/state where there is a lot of programming work, you aren't presenting yourself well OR you aren't "swimming" in the right circles. Worse case, you could always bid for a job on freelancer.com, scriptlance.com et al.

I don't quite know how coding makes you older than your age. I am going to call that one an urban legend. Even if it did, if you are making money off of it, who cares?

"programmer" and "developer" are not synonyms.

hierachically programmer<developer<architect.

@logica:
This is not an English Language board. No need splitting hairs. I have worked for many years and have had many jobs and have had the following titles: User Interface Engineer, Production Specialist, Web Programmer, Web Developer, GUI Developer and Web Engineer.

Good for you.

Now since u know it's not an English language board u may want 2 switch 2 your vernacular (such as yoruba) which you allude to be ur best medium of communication, and not be making statements such as "the 2 terms are synonymous" when u apparently don't know what u r talking about.

Here you have the definition of a Programmer -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programmer
Here you have the definition of a Developer -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_developer

They even went into detail in distinguishing one from the other.

Now let me digress to address your signature for a minute. I believe those that criticize with the aim of humbling their targets cannot provide constructive criticism, which happens to be the only useful kind of criticism. Such people harbor negative sentiments such as feeling inferior or envy. They feel intimidated by their target who appears to dwarf them in some respects (like Gulliver did the Lilliputians), and for that reason try to bring the subject down "a notch or 2" as they would say. Hence criticism from such quarters are best ignored, and are not welcome.

With regards to the title:

Afam, about what you said about the state gov thing, I believe you may be reinventing the wheel. There exist quite a number of portal frameworks that simpify your goal. I am aware of those that are based on Java (JSR-168) such as Liferay. Liferay is free and is open-source. Based on JSR-168 and comes with a bunch of ready made portlets (widgets).

But I don't think there are enough development jobs out here to the point that we are short of hands. Our economy has not yet developed to the point where like in the U.S every major company has a group of developers in house and projects that are so huge that they actually usually bring in more programmers/developers/architects etc as contractors/consultants.

logica:

With regards to the title:

Afam, about what you said about the state gov thing, I believe you may be reinventing the wheel. There exist quite a number of portal frameworks that simpify your goal. I am aware of those that are based on Java (JSR-168) such as Liferay. Liferay is free and is open-source. Based on JSR-168 and comes with a bunch of ready made portlets (widgets).

Reinventing the wheel? That is what you hear when people don't want you to understand how things work in real life. Youtube reinvented the wheel, almost every single software that is not the first reinvented the wheel. What is important is to develop software that will solve problems you envisage or problems that are existing.

My goal is to have a standard framework for our state government websites. For starters I don't do JAVA so Liferay is not something I have used or intend to use.

There is always logical case for software ownership as regards being able to implement anything you want to implement.

I hope Liferay is not the one that is being used by Lagos State government because I remember reading on a forum (don't think it's this one) that it was badly implemented and some links actually take you to the software owner's page (not copyright info).

logica:

But I don't think there are enough development jobs out here to the point that we are short of hands. Our economy has not yet developed to the point where like in the US every major company has a group of developers in house and projects that are so huge that they actually usually bring in more programmers/developers/architects etc as contractors/consultants.

There is no week I don't get to face new request for core programming jobs. Many have been burnt already. I have seen companies that have paid up to 5 different people/companies for programming jobs yet nothing to show for it.

Just as many people lost money in the name of getting basic websites some couple of years ago many people are doing so again when it comes to programming.

@logica
I probably wouldn't rely on the wiki for certain things.  Most information there is based on subjectivity not objectivity.  But what do I know, I only speak yoruba 

I find it interesting that you resort to ad hominem attacks.  What does that say about you? In any event, if you read my last post again, and I know, I am not a native english speaker, you will see that I have specified the context within which I am making my speech.  Of course, generally speaking, a developer and programmer are not the same (I could have been talking about a utility developer but I digress) but within the context of my job titles, both are one and the same.

Regarding your last post before Afam's responses, it seems you need to take the proverbial plank out of your own eyes before you talk about the speck in your neighbor's.  You should learn to speak in generalities when you aren't sure of something and not based on "I think".  So you could have said, "in my opinion", but then again (for the umpteenth time), English is not my native language.

I can tell you from experience that there are tons of jobs out there. The issue is finding *the right* people. I hear this all the time and Afam has alluded to this. You could walk into any local uni and find tons of people. The key is, are they right people for the job (skill set, social skills, ability to read and interpret requirements, location, etc)? If you are not getting enough leads where you are, you need to either move to where the jobs are or organize yourself such that you can do a job for someone in Lagos from the middle of Lake Chad, that's all. I have recently done 2 web projects for people in Nigeria, from the US. My first question is, "why not use local talent?" Response (paraphrasing): The right people are hard to find. Even when you find, such people aren't responsive. They tell you they will be done in 2 weeks but you don't hear from them in a month. Then you have to trace them down, only to find out they haven't started, and this is after you have made 80% down payment." I have even worked with one such person who though he had paid 100% for a job, ended up dumping the developer/programmer (I do this on purpose to piss you off ) and paying me another amount of money, far more than what he paid the other lady, to do the job in the first place.

Now, let me also digress 
If what you are saying about critics and criticisms is true, then you are pretty much rubbishing someone like Benjamin Franklin, one of the greatest polymaths of his time who came up (in part at least) with my signature. I would tread softly in that regard.  At best, your commentary wreaks of some free ebook you read after doing a google search, at worst, it resembles something you got off of a TV/Radio show.  In essence, what I am saying is it isn't something you know to be true yourself.  It sounds too "textbookish".  Oh, sorry, "wiki-ish".  Oops, sorry, that's the Yoruba coming out of me 

Mo n lo si oja, e jo.

lol. if anybody was making anything "textbookish" that would be you, as you mentioned that ur signature was partly authored by benjamin franklin. if i ever use anything from another person's publication i provide the source (just as i did with wikipedia). i'm glad you think what i came up with simply by taking a glance @ ur signature came from a textbook. i can question even what benjamin franklin said without fear because he is just as human as i am, last time i checked he didn't have 2 heads (though i must confess there's a possibility he keeps the other head hidden under his shirts somewhere around his belly).

for the record, i did not "attack" you. i was merely irritated as ur response read as if you were being defensive, after all i merely pointed out the difference between a programmer and a developer and all you had 2 do was accept what i said or proffer an argument. if you ever take a job designation with "programmer" after being a developer, You have either demoted yourself or the company cannot differentiate one from the other.

You cannot hide behind the assumption that wikipedia usually contains subjective entries. the debate on the difference between a programmer and developer had been settled years back. if You r into Java, You will notice that the Sun certifications at initiation had 3 tracks - Programmer (SCJP), Developer (SCJD) and Architect (SCJEA). So as early as 1999 I was well aware of the difference between a Programmer and a Developer as indicated by Sun.

@Afam,

You r right. The Lagos state government website runs on Liferay, and this seems 2 be a vindication of what I had said. The fact that a link takes you to Liferay's website is the fault of the portal developer. I have done plenty of work with Liferay and I would not make such a mistake. obviously the developer is an upstart, he/she didn't attempt 2 change the logo on the login page. matter of fact, the login page can be replaced but he/she had no idea of how 2 go about it. this is exactly what i did 4 a portal i did for VANSO Nigeria Ltd only that i'm not sure of the status of the portal @ this point.

And note that I said that I don't believe we are short of programmers or developers. The jobs are there of course, but simply because you feel that you r being swamped doesn't imply there is a shortage of man-power. of course there r just 2 many mediocre developers here in the country, as there are (believe it or not) in the US.

if you ever take a job designation with "programmer" after being a developer, You have either demoted yourself or the company cannot differentiate one from the other.

Again with the assumptions.  I have been working for 8+ years.  With every job I take, I get paid more.  Personally, I could care less if my job title is bus conductor.  As long as the pay is right for what I do, that is all that matters. I learned that lesson a long time ago. I am not into titles. I am into pay and how much money is left in my account after all the bills are paid.

That is a good point. YAWA-TI-DE

@ yawa

the point is not about your pay package. it's about the meaning of the designations "programmer" and "developer". no need 2 deviate from the real issue. but the fact is a programmer on certain levels (say level 3) in a wall street company may earn more than a developer in BOA (Bank of America) for instance. in an ideal world, a developer will always earn more than a programmer (and that includes the assumption that the role creators know the difference).

what platform(s) do You use? maybe we can chat on Yahoo I'm.

Thanks big star.

logica:  of course it isn't about pay but about titles but see, even you deviated when you said:

if you ever take a job designation with "programmer" after being a developer, You have either demoted yourself or the company cannot differentiate one from the other.

Why should that even come in?  As I said, I don't subscribe to the "do you know who/what i am?" syndrome.  if, in your words, you say:

but the fact is a programmer on certain levels (say level 3) in a wall street company may earn more than a developer in BOA (Bank of America) for instance.

why would you say what you said in your first quote above?  By that, what I get (I stand corrected) is that even if I a get the opportunity to get paid more, just because I am called a programmer, not a developer, I should dump the job. I know that is not what you said, but one could infer that from the statement.  Seems like dbl talk.

Sure, you can contact me via the address in my profile and we can take it from there.  Let that however not be an excuse to not continue the battle of ideas and "logica" posts.  I am actually enjoying it

"but the fact is a programmer on certain levels (say level 3) in a wall street company may earn more than a developer in BOA (Bank of America) for instance".

what that means is simply that some companies can afford to put their employees on a higher salary scale than others, and this results in the effect i pointed out in that quote. if u were a developer initially in a previous job role and then take on a job as a programmer even with higher pay than the previous then effectively you have demoted yourself (except of course if the creator of the role is just a non-techie without any idea of the difference between the roles). the role of a programmer is usually limited, and certainly not as wide as the role of a developer. on your next job applying for a developer position, if it is noted you are a programmer you will certainly not be offered a senior developer role for instance, which is the level a developer should have reached after a period of 3 years.

Well again, if that is the case, I could care less about my job position/title.  Here is what I do when applying for a job:

I visit a site like salary.com and see what my peers are making given a similar skill set, similar location and similar number of years.  I then visit 3 other type sites.  I then take an average based on those sites and aim for that, if higher than what I make currently (usually is), plus or minus $2K.

I say that to say this: in my 8-year career, I have bounced from being a senior to a "regular" to being a senior to being a "regular".  I have also been called "software engineer", "production specialist", and even "GUI developer". Would I rather be called something else (I prefer, "web developer" cos it is more direct)? YOu betcha! At the end of the day though, as I said above, I could care less what you call me, as long as my pay is rising with each job and I am paid comparable to what my peers are making, that's all.  I would much rather get paid more money than be in a situation where, just to hold my head up high among my peers, I say, "I am a senior developer".

I used to think this way until about 6 years ago when I got laid off for 2 years during the dot com bust.  That's when, like Malcolm X, I saw this world in a different light 

logica:


@Afam,

You r right. The Lagos state government website runs on Liferay, and this seems 2 be a vindication of what I had said. The fact that a link takes you to Liferay's website is the fault of the portal developer. I have done plenty of work with Liferay and I would not make such a mistake. obviously the developer is an upstart, he/she didn't attempt 2 change the logo on the login page. matter of fact, the login page can be replaced but he/she had no idea of how 2 go about it. this is exactly what i did 4 a portal i did for VANSO Nigeria Ltd only that i'm not sure of the status of the portal @ this point.

That the Lagos state government website runs on Liferay does not mean much especially when the flaw was what brought up the discussion on the forum that I read about it.

Why would someone build an application that would lead visitors to the application writer's home page (upon logging in) and not the restricted area where the application is installed?

Would the guy that used the software contact the original owner to remedy the situation or would he attempt to do so himself?

Either way it makes sense to have a local software that is developed from ground up to solve a unique problem as against a "one size fits all" approach.

In any case my reference to the state government framework was to demonstrate what Nigerians could come up with if we have more programmers as what you see on that page didn't take more than 4 or 5 days to complete from the thought process to the final code that was written before making the post.

Enjoy.

an open solution always beats a specialized solution. the portal technology has matured and is quite robust enough to provide a solution to the stated problem: state websites (portals). your solution will definitely be too restrictive, and will require too much extra work as more states come up with customization features that answer to their peculiar requirements, which you didn't think about. it seems you conveniently ignored the fact that i blamed the issue of the "flaw" found on the lagos state website on the developer. a seasoned developer would have done much better. i have designed customized login screens for portals based on liferay.

@yawa
we don't need to digress too much from a simple debate on the difference between a programmer and a developer. as i have stressed, a developer's job description is necessarily a super-set of a programmer's (and it follows logically that a programmer's job description is a subset of a developer's), meaning he has more and diversified tasks assigned to him and therefore gains more experience which in a perfect world leads to career advancement and better opportunities. for instance a programmer is not expected to partake in the software design and architecture definition stage, and therefore is not expected to be proficient in such skills as UML, Flow-charting, etc. Note that these are usually required skills in developer roles, which you as a programmer will normally not possess and you therefore will not qualify.

logica:

an open solution always beats a specialized solution. the portal technology has matured and is quite robust enough to provide a solution to the stated problem: state websites (portals). your solution will definitely be too restrictive, and will require too much extra work as more states come up with customization features that answer to their peculiar requirements, which you didn't think about.

Guy, it seems you are used to repeating stuff you read about on the web without paying too much attention to details.

An open solution always beats a specialized solution. Very very wrong and the key word that makes it so wrong is the word always. I will not bother giving a lecture on how wrong your assertion is.

My solution will be too restrictive while the Liferay is robust enough to provide a solution to the stated problems: state websites. Another general statement. A stadium is usually well suited for sporting activities much better than a large piece of land any day. Think about this.

Also you have again generalized and assumed that all states in every country would have the same needs and requirements. How wrong.

Open source solutions that are doing very well often times require paid support for customization and tweaking.

logica:

it seems you conveniently ignored the fact that i blamed the issue of the "flaw" found on the lagos state website on the developer. a seasoned developer would have done much better. i have designed customized login screens for portals based on liferay.

Do you do selective reading? How can you claim I conveniently ignored the fact that you blamed the issue of the flaw on the developer when I made it clear that it is wrong for an application developer to have any user login page redirect to his/her own website as against the particular website where the application is installed.

You get to find site or software credits in the footer area, copyright documents and agreements not on login pages so you are wrong in blaming the developer for the flaw that should rest squarely on the developer's shoulders.

A seasoned developer may even develop web applications mush faster than trying to tweak codes written by another developer as the developer would need to read and understand the underlying codes before attempting to change anything. The time spent on understanding the code would do well in having the same application written from scratch in some cases.

Well, could you please point us to some of these customized login pages or full websites you have set up using Liferay?

Many thanks for your time.

"Also you have again generalized and assumed that all states in every country would have the same needs and requirements."

from that quote above it is apparent you have no idea of what you are talking about. you provided a template which you want to use for every single state. now compared to an open portal framework like liferay, who is generalizing and assuming that all states would have the same needs and requirements?

"Another general statement. A stadium is usually well suited for sporting activities much better than a large piece of land any day."

here you have wrong use of analogy. if stadium is to "a portal for states" as portal framework (like liferay) is to a "piece of land" then you missed it by a mile. if stadium is to "a portal for states" then it's best you think of a portal framework as a "stadium with no match fixtures". the framework is already the stadium and should not be compared to a piece of land with no infrastructure.

it seems you are not able to differentiate the portal developer (as in the web developer that delivered the lagos state portal) from the application/framework developer as in the team of developers that came up with liferay. i laid the blame of the "flaw" on the portal developer, not the app developer. the default behaviors of the liferay framework have to be customized by the portal developer to suit the requirements of the client, as well as wholly customized for the site in question. you cannot blame the app developer for having a default login page (which was what the portal developer used, and which you refer to as a "flaw".

as part of my portfolio, i already mentioned Vanso Nig Limited, whose portal i developed and which happens to be the only work i have done with Liferay existing in the public domain. but it has not been deployed because of some technical difficulties they ran into (poor performance of deployed mysql server instances). but if you want to see what can be done with liferay, feel free to visit their website and see a list of sites/portals that run on it, and you will be sure to find them almost unidentifiable as liferay portals due to the richness of the customization tools.

and more on the lagos state website. the dude that did this is obviously not familiar with the new paradigm of portals and portlets (widgets) from the crap i see there masquerading as the site of a state like lagos. he didn't make use of portlets which would have greatly enhanced the look of the site. he is obviously still stuck in the pre-portal mindset.

and note that i do not criticize to humble (yawa-ti-de ), but i criticize objectively for you to see the flaws in your assumptions.

logica:

"Also you have again generalized and assumed that all states in every country would have the same needs and requirements."

from that quote above it is apparent you have no idea of what you are talking about. you provided a template which you want to use for every single state. now compared to an open portal framework like liferay, who is generalizing and assuming that all states would have the same needs and requirements?

The good thing about an open forum like this is that it will give you all the opportunity in the world to show people how you think and how you process information.

A framework for all the states in Nigeria is more useful and straight to the point than a framework for states that belong to different countries for the simple fact that components of all the states in one country may not be the same with components of all the states in another country.

Base your argument on facts, common sense and logic. In your desperation to win an argument you may overlook very basic differences that will expose your lack of understanding of what you are talking about.

logica:

"Another general statement. A stadium is usually well suited for sporting activities much better than a large piece of land any day."

here you have wrong use of analogy. if stadium is to "a portal for states" as portal framework (like liferay) is to a "piece of land" then you missed it by a mile. if stadium is to "a portal for states" then it's best you think of a portal framework as a "stadium with no match fixtures". the framework is already the stadium and should not be compared to a piece of land with no infrastructure.

As stated earlier you seem not to pay attention to details. The word usually should make my point clear to you. I guess FIFA and Olymipic organizers would stop accrediting the sporting facilities in countries hosting major tournaments or competitions and instead look for a large piece of land that can do the job.

logica:

it seems you are not able to differentiate the portal developer (as in the web developer that delivered the lagos state portal) from the application/framework developer as in the team of developers that came up with liferay. i laid the blame of the "flaw" on the portal developer, not the app developer. the default behaviors of the liferay framework have to be customized by the portal developer to suit the requirements of the client, as well as wholly customized for the site in question. you cannot blame the app developer for having a default login page (which was what the portal developer used, and which you refer to as a "flaw".

If you tell me your local language I could repeat the same thing in your language. Thus far I have been explicit and precise in addressing the web developer and the application/software developer. Do not blame your lack of comprehension on me.

It is interesting to note that you consider it normal for a user login page on an application instance to redirect to the software owner's website.

logica:

as part of my portfolio, i already mentioned Vanso Nig Limited, whose portal i developed and which happens to be the only work i have done with Liferay existing in the public domain. but it has not been deployed because of some technical difficulties they ran into (poor performance of deployed mysql server instances). but if you want to see what can be done with liferay, feel free to visit their website and see a list of sites/portals that run on it, and you will be sure to find them almost unidentifiable as liferay portals due to the richness of the customization tools.

and more on the lagos state website. the dude that did this is obviously not familiar with the new paradigm of portals and portlets (widgets) from the crap i see. he didn't make use of portlets which would have greatly enhanced the look of the site. he is obviously still stuck in the pre-portal mindset.

Websites please? What is Vanso Nig Limited? Poor performance of deployed mysql server instances should not stop a company website from going live as it takes less than 30 minutes to deploy a new mysql server on most machines.

It also does not make sense to try to change the issue at hand as regards the need for more programmers in Nigeria to software supremacy battle between your robust state framework (without any fully functional one in Nigeria) and what I spent less than 4 days to come up with which I hope would be useful to a lot of states in Nigeria considering the fact that many states do not have websites and some of those states with websites have sub standard websites based on functionality.

Are you a programmer? If yes, can you point to projects you have developed from scratch?

Enjoy the weekend ahead.

logica:

Again, I think you are the one digressing. I am not the one who mentioned that (to paraphrase), it would be demoting ones self to be called/to do the work of a programmer rather than developer. In all others, I have no problem but on this issue of "demotion". Again, I could care less how demoted I am, as long as I am paid right.

Can we end this please?

lol. afam is simply over-emotional that i'm not buying his idea.

i will ignore most of the rabble. who's throwing wild punches trying 2 win an argument?

i have pointed out the problems with your idea, you should take it as constructive criticism and not a personal attack, but i really could care less how you take it.

with regards to the mention of mysql, you didn't even have an idea of what i was talking about before talking about mysql installation. ok, i will go a bit further by telling you that one of the components was to deal with data in the range of 20 million, but they hadn't taken this into consideration. the test data i was given was less than 10,000. during deployment the problem became apparent and i advised them to upgrade the db to oracle.

i am more than a programmer. i am an architect. no need beating chests like gorillas do though. i will keep it @ that. but you can take a look @ carefirst.com, starwood.com. you will find some of my work there. . and if you can also get access into the principal financial US wide intranet . well, also try the loans app @ university of penn -> upenn.edu. maybe i should keep it short and simply mail you my resume.

@logica,

It is common to hear from Nigerians statements like "you are missing the point" or "you don't get it" and when you sit back and listen to their explanations you begin to wonder if they could reason at all.

You think you have pointed out problems. It is not the same thing as pointing out problems. You stated that the implementation of the application on Lagos state website is crap (according to you) and the only work you have done with the same application is not live due to mysql problems and you want people to prefer that framework over something that is customized to suit our own peculiar need as regards the 36 states in Nigeria (plus or minus Abuja).

You cannot be both the judge and the jury and that is the good thing about the forum.

Again you have displayed your lack of understanding of technology as regards mysql.

20 million is certainly lower than the benchmark for mysql. Do yourself a favor and learn to argue based on facts, logic, common sense and thorough knowledge about what you wish to dabble into.

I have seen the site you referenced and by just taking a look at the home page I saw a link that said "Return to Home page" on the home page of the website and it shows that the developer never paid attention to details.

Why would I need to see a link on the home page that is telling me to click on it to go return to the home page?

To be honest with you, if you had posted this site long before now coupled with the mysql issues you claimed stopped your implementation of LifeRay from going live I wouldn't have wasted time responding to your many incoherent statements that seem to come from ebooks.

Go back to your client and admit to them that 20 million is small for mysql database to handle and their is actually no economic sense in moving to oracle.

You have again shot yourself here. You are advising your client to move from mysql (Open source) to oracle (Closed source). Don't you think you are being too inconsistent when you claimed that an open solution always beats a specialized solution a couple of posts back?