davidylan:



Makes absolutely no sense. How can He be alpha and the Omega, begining and the end and yet not know Adam would sin?
Yes He created Adam with a freewill but He knew Adam would sin . . .

Before Esau was born the bible says - Jacob have i loved but Esau have i hated . . . why? Was it because He just had an inordinate hatred for anyone bearing Esau? No, it was because He could foretell the kind of person Esau eventually ended up becoming.

so god could foretell that the people living during the time of noah will all sin and he will eventually kill all of them? god could fortell that adam and eve will eventualy sin and he left them to sin  with the help of the devil(serpent)which resulted to their death but he still loves them? does that make sense to you? as a father will you test you child with death, after knowing before hand that the test will have a devastating result? why are you always talking about god giving adam free will? there was no free will in the old testament its either you obey god and his laws or he kills you. . . . god wrote all the laws in the old testament and gave no room for free will in his laws, infact he was the law and there was nothing like free will then so your free will argument falls flat. . . .  in the old testament its either you obey god and his commandments of you get killed simple. . . . . stop trumping the free will card it makes no sense. . . . .

mazaje:

so god could foretell that the people living during the time of noah will all sin and he will eventually kill all of them? god could fortell that adam and eve will eventualy sin and he left them to sin with the help of the devil(serpent)which resulted to their death but he still loves them? does that make sense to you? as a father will you test you child with death, after knowing before hand that the test will have a devastating result? why are you always talking about god giving adam free will? there was no free will in the old testament its either you obey god and his laws or he kills you. . . . god wrote all the laws in the old testament and gave no room for free will in his laws, infact he was the law and there was nothing like free will then so your free will argument falls flat. . . . in the old testament its either you obey god and his commandments of you get killed simple. . . . . stop trumping the free will card it makes no sense. . . . .

if i show you that free will is in the bible will you acknowledge your own despicable and baseless allegations?

I think it's about time the moderators start running a spell check! What's Christains?

Who am i to judge you guys? Besides, everyone is entitled to his/her own belief. But i want you guys to take a moment and see clearly. Those laws that were quoted, where in the old testament. The Israelite s were a stubborn people. There had to be law in order to keep the peace, so that what happened during Noah's time wouldn't happen again. They were living in the period of THE LAW, but after Jesus came down to die for mankind, we started living in the period of grace. God is not man, HIS ways are different from ours, we can not rationalize or understand HIM through human carnality.
Ok, lets say you are right, there is no GOD, how do you explain the perfect positioning of the earth in the cosmic space to support life? Could it be chance that every time an asteroid is approaching earth something mysterious happens? Look back into the book of Daniel and Revelation, and see if all the prophecies there are not coming to pass quickly. I mean, what other proof do you need to see the light. Its because Christianity is a peaceful religion, where we know we cant fight for our God, that's why it's been attacked like this. As for those who profess to be Christians or Born again, Christianity is not a religion, its a lifestyle. You are trying to be like the master not eve by your power but by His spirit. I pray that it would not be too late for any of us to see the light. May God continue to have mercy on us all. But still, i fear for this generation.

Now I would not like to argue with anyone who would not be ready to listen to answers to his or her questions. I have met a lot of atheists and I know very well that a lot of you are more confused than the people who you are trying to show their confusion.
So atheist in the house or even other people who have questions about Christianity should please ask.

First, let me say that this is the religion section.  Personally, I don't thing we should head our topic for christians only.  If an athiest/muslim answer your question, you have a choice (God gave us) to answer or not to answer

@poster

It's about free will. if we all went straight to heaven we'd have no choice in the matter - we'd be like robots.  Plus God made the earth for man, heaven is Gods dwelling place, flesh and blood cannot live in heaven.  Human (Adam and eve) was never meant to go to heaven God made the earth for them to live

Peace

Cayon, weren't you the same one claiming to be needing Jesus in a different thread?

onyinye2:

Cayon, weren't you the same one claiming to be needing Jesus in a different thread?

  I typed in spanish You need Jesus" (the person know I meant them) I didnt say "I need Jesus"  You know what, before I sin my soul - let me get off this forum now

Peace

Depending on the way one views freewill, then it becomes and illusion. Why? Its simple is God has a plan for you already then free will is an illusion, Adam did not really posses freewill if God knew before hand that he was going to mess up in the garden. In essence he had only one choice to make which was the wrong one.
Let us model the situation above mathematically:
Consider this A + B = C
Let A be Adam and B be the decision he had to make while C would be the outcome, which is the fall of man.
Now God being Omniscient will already know what the outcome will be which is the fall of man. If we plug that back into the equation we have above from an omniscient point of view we get

Adam + (decision) = Fall of man

Simply put there is only one decision that would have brought about the fall of man and that is Adam choosing to eat the apple.

@habiolah you might want to start from here

you seem to be getting things wrong here

There wasnt only one decision for Adam to make
He could decide to obey God or Disobey Him
two choices already
You put your hand in the fire, you get burned period.
He made the wrong choice and got punished sounds fair to me. Got to go home now. Will continue tomorrow.

habiolah:

you seem to be getting things wrong here

There wasnt only one decision for Adam to make
He could decide to obey God or Disobey Him
two choices already
You put your hand in the fire, you get burned period.
He made the wrong choice and got punished sounds fair to me. Got to go home now. Will continue tomorrow.

Shame you are leaving now, anyway whenever you come back to read this let me remove the scales that might have blinded your eyes. Just like any Chris angel Illusion it seemed as though Adam had two choices but it was really only one my brother.
Point is God is Omniscient he had knowledge of everything that would happen which was Adam doing the wrong thing! how is that two choices.

Adam had to make a choice, and Almighty God already knew the outcome of his choice would be the fall of man that leaves one choice for adam to make , the wrong one!

Chrisbenogor:

Shame you are leaving now, anyway whenever you come back to read this let me remove the scales that might have blinded your eyes. Just like any Chris angel Illusion it seemed as though Adam had two choices but it was really only one my brother.
Point is God is Omniscient he had knowledge of everything that would happen which was Adam doing the wrong thing! how is that two choices.

Adam had to make a choice, and Almighty God already knew the outcome of his choice would be the fall of man that leaves one choice for adam to make , the wrong one!

same old same old twisting the scriptures and forcing explanations that dont exist. I already explained that Adam had TWO (2) choices to make. If God is omniscient and we believe He can see tomorrow it means He can see what could have been if we had made different choices. It is those things that make Him regret when we make the wrong choice.

Keep up the facade.

davidylan:

No problem. Rather be a religious fanatic than a lukewarm "christian". Paul, Peter and John warned us against such (from such turn away). We see enough of you everyday . . . forever on the religion thread but contributing next to nothing but vexations to the spirit.

this model is a fallacy which forces God into a mortal mold - a mold where we can only see in one plane.
Now lets draw a more accurate model:

Since the bible agrees that God is Omnipresent and omniscien[/b]t . . . i.e. able to be in more than 1 place at one and able to see thousands of scenarios at once . . .

We can then conclude that Adam had 2 choices from God's point of view - to do right and enjoy the benefits or to do wrong and suffer the consequences.

[b]If Adam had refused to eat of the apple - God knew.
If Adam ate the apples - God still knew.

Ah, david my brother you know say my head dey touch like your own oh, I have been avoiding you like a plague and I can see you are already in a bad mood if you want make we continue later it will be fine with me I no want spill over volcano oh  

To reply to quote in bold, it seemed like two choices I agree but God being Omniscient knew the one in red bold would happen, that leaves one choice really my brother.
You have a point about scenarios but I want you to fine tune it yourself  

Chrisbenogor:

Ah, david my brother you know say my head dey touch like your own oh, I have been avoiding you like a plague and I can see you are already in a bad mood if you want make we continue later it will be fine with me I no want spill over volcano oh

To reply to quote in bold, it seemed like two choices I agree but God being Omniscient knew the one in red bold would happen, that leaves one choice really my brother.
You have a point about scenarios but I want you to fine tune it yourself

It leaves only one choice BECAUSE that was the one Adam wilfully chose.

davidylan:

It leaves only one choice [/b]BECAUSE that was the one [b]Adam wilfully chose.

Ah didnt take long for you to admit that, I think you saying God can see the different scenarios is what "might" reduce him to a mortal chess player, you have to add that he knew which particular scenario it would be dont you think?

Chrisbenogor:

Ah didnt take long for you to admit that, I think you saying God can see the different scenarios is what "might" reduce him to a mortal chess player, you have to add that he knew which particular scenario it would be don't you think?

Its pretty clear unless you really want to cling desperately to your own point of view.

Its simple . . . to obey or disobey was Adam's choice to make.

God could see the blessings Adam would reap for his obedience and the consequences that would result from his disobedience . . .

Let me give an analogy . . . (not always perfect) . . . you know that if your child steals N5 you would beat him and if he doesnt you will give him an apple for being a good boy. However you DO NOT take the pains to hide your money since you expect that your son would instintively obey you and refuse to take the N5.
However your son is so hungry one day that he takes N10 from the table and buys himself a pack of groundnuts . . . you get angry and flog him.

Would you attribute that to be your fault? why did you leave money lying around temptingly knowing you would flog your son if he took the money?

davidylan:

Its pretty clear unless you really want to cling desperately to your own point of view.

Its simple . . . to obey or disobey was Adam's choice to make.

God could see the blessings Adam would reap for his obedience and the consequences that would result from his disobedience . . .

Let me give an analogy . . . (not always perfect) . . . you know that if your child steals N5 you would beat him and if he doesnt you will give him an apple for being a good boy. However you DO NOT take the pains to hide your money since you expect that your son would instintively obey you and refuse to take the N5.
However your son is so hungry one day that he takes N10 from the table and buys himself a pack of groundnuts . . . you get angry and flog him.

Would you attribute that to be your fault? why did you leave money lying around temptingly knowing you would flog your son if he took the money?

David I do not cling desperately to anything, it is you that feels that way, if you say something that would make me pause and think I would do that.

Now back to your (imperfect ) analogy, me thinks it needs a little modification, me being Omniscient in this case would know that my child would get hungry and that the temptation for him to collect the money would be too much for him to bear as a child. So like God I would even buy koboko on my way back because I know he will steal the money.

It is my fault because if I knew that my child would be hungry why not leave food behind, better yet why not just take away the money if I know his stealing the money would really offend me?

if i show you that free will is in the bible will you acknowledge your own despicable and baseless allegations?
 

show me where the word free will was used by the Hebrew god in the old testament and where it was applied by the people of the old testament. . . .  show me where the Hebrew god gave out commandment and told the people that they have the free will to obey or disobey. . . .  and i will show you where the malevolent Hebrew god ordered the killing and maiming of people because they did not obey the laws he spelled out. . . . .

davidylan:

same old same old twisting the scriptures and forcing explanations that don't exist. I already explained that Adam had TWO (2) choices to make. If God is omniscient and we believe He can see tomorrow it means He can see what could have been if we had made different choices. It is those things that make Him regret when we make the wrong choice.

Keep up the facade.

your argument makes no sense, will an all loving father give you a test that will lead to your death? will an all loving father give you a choice that involves death? as a father will you give your test your child with options that involves death and allow your enemy to come and test him knowing fully well that he will fall for the test once your enemy comes and deceives him? according to the bible adam and eve were living peacefully and obeying the laws of the god of the bible when the devil came and deceived eve, why did god allow the devil his arch enemy to come and deceive eve, knowing beforehand that she will fall and her fall will result to her death? and the same bible still claims that god loves adam and eve, where is the love when he allowed his enemy to come and deceive them for no reason of their own? will you as a father allow your enemy to come close your child talk less of deceiving him/her? does that make sense to you? then again you will say that god sacrificed himself through jesus so that sin can be defeated, but we all know that it is not true, sin still exist and can not be defeated. . . . . . even after god sacrificed himself sin still persist .

things are supposed to be the way they were during the times of adam and eve  in the garden of eden where there was no sin after the hebrew god sacrificed himself but they are not infact the hebrew god of the bible does not even know how to deal with sin. . . . . he destroyed the whole world during the time of noah according to the bible to get rid of sin but failed, he killed/ordered the killing of so many people because they sinned but sin still persisted, he sacrificed himself but still failed because sin still exist and he is still angry with sinners and he still dislikes sin. . . .  if he is all powerful as he claims why doesn't he just destroy sin, since according to the bible he strongly dislikes sin and doesn't want to see his children commit sin. if sin is the only thing that separate man from god and he wants to be with man why doesn't he destroy sin once and for all. . . . will you allow something to keep making your furious if you have the power or authority to end it? does the christain assertion make any sense to you?

then again let me ask you do animals commit sin? does a hawk that takes a chick away from its mother and feeds on it commit sin? does a lion commit sin when it kills and devours an antelope? do dogs commit sin when they fight each other to death?. . . .  what is sin? what might be sin to you might not be sin to me and what might be sinful to your god might not be sinful to mine so what is sin?

Cayon:

LOL - you are sooo misguided. prophets not necessarily as prophets mentioned in the bible per se. Jesus said wearing sheep clothing. That does not mean folks are literally going to wear wool. LOL, A false prophet (person)claims to speak God's Words, while actually uttering human ideas. And that's you.

Its becoming more obvious you havent read the bible at all.
Matt 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Do you know who a "prophet" is? I doubt it because by your warped, unbiblical definition EVERY CHRISTIAN who speaks the word of God is a prophet?

Read what Ezekiel says about FALSE PROPHETS in Ez 13. It is clear he isnt merely refering to the sheep (i.e. average born again christian) BUT to those who pretend to be christian leaders but lead the people astray with false doctrine.

I have said it and will repeat . . . christianity is not a badge you wear on your chest . . . your inability to understand simply scripture will always find you out.

Cayon:

You are quoting the Bible scriptures but you have no clue what it means. Pray to God to let the Holy Spirit reveal to you the meaning of what you are reading before you begin to read the Bible.

I'm sorry ma'am but i think the problem is sincerely yours. Ever read that you shld pull the LOG out of your eye before casting out the MOTE in they brothers? I genuinely hope you will do this.

Cayon:

My peace i leave with you

Ma'am . . . what peace do you have to leave with me? When did you become The Prince of Peace who ONLY made that statement in the bible? Pls do not include blasphemy to your numerous problems.

mazaje, you've been repeating the same thing like a broken record for millenia, what's new? At least Chris and the others try to take apart my arguments . . . you just say "makes no sense" and then revert back to your tired arguments. Try and be innovative.

Chrisbenogor:

Now back to your (imperfect ) analogy, me thinks it needs a little modification, me being Omniscient in this case would know that my child would get hungry and that the temptation for him to collect the money would be too much for him to bear as a child. So like God I would even buy koboko on my way back because I know he will steal the money.

It is my fault because if I knew that my child would be hungry why not leave food behind, better yet why not just take away the money if I know his stealing the money would really offend me?

You seem not to have understood my analogy at all. Ok let us look at it this way? What is the purpose of exams or tests? Since you know some students will fail (infact by their performance in class you already know their names!) why then do you still go ahead and set a tough test?

God has given man a choice/freewill . . . YET obedience is NOT obedience until you have had an option to be disobedient and wilfully chosen to remain obedient. Get my point?

Its just like saying why do we have speed limits? People will still inadvertently drive above the speedlimit anyway and since the police cant be there every second why have the law in the first place? What of the poor fellow who would be caught and made a scapegoat out of the thousands who flout the rules and go away scott free? Get my point?

mazaje:

show me where the word free will was used by the Hebrew god in the old testament and where it was applied by the people of the old testament. . . .  show me where the Hebrew god gave out commandment and told the people that they have the free will to obey or disobey. . . .  and i will show you where the malevolent Hebrew god ordered the killing and maiming of people because they did not obey the laws he spelled out. . . . .

I have 2 verses right now but unfortunately talking with you is a waste of time. Go ahead and ignore the malevolent hebrew God. I doubt He's listening to you anyway.

davidylan:

I have 2 verses right now but unfortunately talking with you is a waste of time. Go ahead and ignore the malevolent hebrew God. I doubt He's listening to you anyway.

how can he listen to me when he is does'nt exist? keep on running around the circle. . . . . . . .what is it with 2 verses

mazaje:

how can he listen to me when he is does'nt exist? keep on running around the circle. . . . . . . .what is it with 2 verses

why then are you reading his book and beating your head against a rock? No one forced you to the religion section.

davidylan:

why then are you reading[b] his[/b] book and beating your head against a rock? No one forced you to the religion section.

his book the bible is a book that was written by men like you and me who then ascribe it to their god just like the koran,torah, hindu writtings etc. . . men write books, gods do not. . . . . .

mazaje:

his book the bible is a book that was written by men like you and me who then ascribe it to their god just like the koran,torah, hindu writtings etc. . . men write books, gods do not. . . . . .

And why are you inordinately bothered about men's books about the God who doesnt exist?
You're getting boring.

davidylan:

And why are you inordinately bothered about men's books about the God who doesnt exist?
You're getting boring.

for the same reason i aforementioned. . . . you are getting boring as well. . . . .

davidylan:

mazaje, you've been repeating the same thing like a broken record for millenia, what's new? At least Chris and the others try to take apart my arguments . . . you just say "makes no sense" and then revert back to your tired arguments. Try and be innovative.

You seem not to have understood my analogy at all. Ok let us look at it this way? What is the purpose of exams or tests? Since you know some students will fail (infact by their performance in class you already know their names!) why then do you still go ahead and set a tough test?

God has given man a choice/freewill . . . YET obedience is NOT obedience until you have had an option to be disobedient and wilfully chosen to remain obedient. Get my point?

Its just like saying why do we have speed limits? People will still inadvertently drive above the speedlimit anyway and since the police can't be there every second why have the law in the first place? What of the poor fellow who would be caught and made a scapegoat out of the thousands who flout the rules and go away scott free? Get my point?

Sorry for the break I had to take in the sights of the what Naija is supposed to be, your analogy is a lot clearer and viewing it from that perspective it does make a lot of sense, but one little monster is still rearing its head and that's the fact that if I had one(or two) students in my class and I know the student is going to fail then there would be no need of setting an exam or at least make the exam one they can pass. I will not be fair if I give an exam meant for an Undergraduate student to a Junior secondary school students that would be a big mistake on my part and I should be held responsible regardless of whether some students pass or fail.
I understand your point though sha and maybe you get me too.

Lol it seems you're trying so hard to twist the analogy around but at the end of the day your interpretation of it makes very little sense (no pun intended).

Chrisbenogor:

but one little monster is still rearing its head and that's the fact that if I had one(or two) students in my class and I know the student is going to fail then there would be no need of setting an exam

This is as laughable as it is untrue. Have you ever seen a school that declined to set exams because it knows some students would be too lazy to study and pass? There is a reason students who fail are asked to withdraw for failing exams duly set for them . . .
Exams are the only criteria for judging that a student is intellectually competent enough to advance to the next level. If you refuse to set an exam what happens to the student? You just pass them all the same?

Chrisbenogor:

or at least make the exam one they can pass.

The idea of an exam is to TEST a student not to set them an exam they can easily pass. Many people fail JAMB every year, i dont remember them deciding to "at least make the exam one they can pass".

Chrisbenogor:

I will not be fair if I give an exam meant for an Undergraduate student to a Junior secondary school students that would be a big mistake on my part and I should be held responsible regardless of whether some students pass or fail.

this is not credible. Some students will still fail JAMB, is it because the JAMB syllabus is above their level? We are talking about standard exams based on what the students have been duly taught here not just any exam.

Adam knew his exam very well - Gen 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Infact we can say God allowed him to bring orijo to the exam hall . . . he knew how to pass that exam, he knew the consequences of failing the exam . . . you would have had a point if God never told Adam anything about the fruit.

@david
Again your analogy is missing something Important, that only some students fail, is there anybody on earth that has not succumbed to temptation at one point or the other? All students Fail! and that is a sign that the teacher is not Good
Would Jamb still be existing if all the students that take the exams fail it?
If a school sets an Exam where it knows all the students will fail if they write the exam, that is not giving the students an  option to pass. In essence no matter what they do they will fail , and even though the illusion is there that when they write the exam they might pass or fail( which is the two choices I have been taking about) the school knows they will fail meaning they really have only one choice which is to do badly in the exam.

Chrisbenogor:

@david
Again your analogy is missing something Important, that only some students fail, is there anybody on earth that has not succumbed to temptation at one point or the other? All students Fail! and that is a sign that the teacher is not Good
Would Jamb still be existing if all the students that take the exams fail it?

my analogy missed nothing. Not all students fail, true. But Adam was one man and he could either pass or fail.
Assume one student from one family fails the JAMB exam, shld we then scrap it? Afterall some others are passing no?

Chrisbenogor:

If a school sets an Exam where it knows all the students will fail if they write the exam, that is not giving the students an option to pass. In essence no matter what they do they will fail , and even though the illusion is there that when they write the exam they might pass or fail( which is the two choices I have been taking about) the school knows they will fail meaning they really have only one choice which is to do badly in the exam.

The God "exam" has and is still being passed with flying colors by millions . . . so this analogy falls flat on its face.
Thankfully this exam was not deliberately set to fail the students, rather the school has sacrificed itself to provide answers to the exams already. It is up to you to go peep at the answers and then take the exam . . . it is not cheating . . . the school wants you to pass at all costs.

Your case is similar to students who of their own free will have chosen to fail themselves out of school because they believe a degree is not important to their future. Pls leave the school quietly, dont attempt to disrupt other students who are interested in taking the exam OF THEIR OWN FREE WILL.

thank you.

Davidylan makes sense