m4malik am not doing denying anything am just sayin i need the quotes thats all

Mukina2, but did you not just boast in another thread that you've studied the Christian faith for 3 years - and yet you are acting here like you're blank about these issues? Which one of the issues enumerated is would you say is not true or a misrepresentation of what Islam actually is?

m4malik:

Mukina2, but did you not just boast in another thread that you've studied the Christian faith for 3 years - and yet you are acting here like you're blank about these issues? Which one of the issues enumerated is would you say is not true or a misrepresentation of what Islam actually is?

just give me the quotes and i'll give you ur answers

mukina2:

@m4malik please bring out the facts get me the direct places in the Quran where this your claims exist then i'll get back to you.

@softie its mukina2 not murkina2 you want to know the spirit behind Islam find a translation Quran and study it well

1. Stop trying to play smart and attempt to deflect the real question. Does Islam have a spirit behind it or not? My answer is yes! What is yours? Explain why!
Every true christian will not tell you to "go study the bible well" to find out the spirit behind the bible, he'll gladly take his time to explain to you, i wonder why every muslim here has tried to dodge the question!

2. Are you trying to pretend you dont know that the quran is a book that sanctions murder, incest, lust, licentious living and many more immoralities? Which facts are you asking M4Malik to show you? The ones you intentionally forgot to read?

@mukina2, games, right? The moment you start denying them, you'll get a direct quote from Islamic sources. Just start denying them - afterall, you have studied the Christian faith for 3 years and know what Islam is all about.

@davidylan, just leave her to play games as much as she likes - I thought I was the only one that understood what she was up to.

lmao i dont have to play no games you people come here spewing hatred for a religion that was here before you were born,

get ur facts straight and i'll answer you,
the Quran is not a book i toy with, its a book of purity so give ur qoutes and i'll answer ur claims, if i want to play games i wont do it about a religion thats in ma blood

i forgot to read nothing i want him to know what he's sayin before he start making claims,same applies to softie she must research well before creating threads,
cuz if i start quoting here from ur bible and our Quran den u'll know wat am talking bout

thats why i want m4malik to give me the quotes,


i dont hate christainity cuz the country am from we hace religion tolerance,we mix,intermarry and so on,
so let him quote and i'll provide his answers,

mukina2:

i forgot to read nothing i want him to know what he's sayin before he start making claims,same applies to softie she must research well before creating threads,
because if i start quoting here from your bible and our Quran den u'll know what am talking bout
thats why i want m4malik to give me the quotes,


i don't hate christainity because the country am from we hace religion tolerance,we mix,intermarry and so on,
so let him quote and i'll provide his answers,

You have talked about NOTHING so far.

yeah but were are the quotes from m4malik?

mukina2:

yeah but were are the quotes from m4malik?

A good place to start would be to answer the question which is the topic of this thread, something you have conveniently been avoiding so far by pretending to be waiting for M4Malik to post obvious lies and contradictions from the quran.

@mukina2, I take it you don't play games - that is only if you'd be willing to let me know where you stand.

Do you deny those things - yes or no? If no, then why do you want me to provide the quotes? If yes, then simply state it in clear bold print that those things are not so - then you'll see the quotes. Take them one by one and deny them. If you can't do that, I take it that Islam is exactly as started in my assertions.

olabowale,if any 'church goer'  chooses to attend the mosque instead,God help them,we still love them and would not seek to harm them.
There are countless Muslims daily coming to Christ,some of them choose to remain secret for fear of death in the hands of your fellow Muslims as prescribed by Muhammad but Christ knows their hearts.

Practice your religion and let others do same without fear!!

If Muhammad,a pedophile,womanizer,rapist of war captives,murderer is your model,God help us.
He ain't no good example to follow.
davidylan answered you well.Read it again,your eyes may be opened.

Is this the tolerant Islam you proclaim?
Speak up now,from an article.

According to Muslim law, Christians, Jews, and the followers of other religions assimilated to Christianity and Judaism (the “Sabeans”) who live in a Muslim state belong to an inferior social order, in spite of their eventually belonging to the same race, language, and descent. Islamic law does not recognize the concepts of nation and citizenship, but only the umma, the one Islamic community, for which reason a Muslim, as he is part of the umma, may live in any Islamic country as he would in his homeland: he is subject to the same laws, finds the same customs, and enjoys the same consideration.

But those belonging to the “people of the Book” are subject to the dhimma, which is a kind of bilateral treaty consisting in the fact that the Islamic state authorizes the “people of the Book” to inhabit its lands, tolerates its religion, and guarantees the “protection” of its persons and goods and its defense from external enemies. Thus the “people of the Book” (Ahl al-Kitab) becomes the “protected people” (Ahl al-dhimma). In exchange for this “protection,” the “people of the Book” must pay a tax (jizya) to the Islamic state, which is imposed only upon able-bodied free men, excluding women, children, and the old and infirm, and pay a tribute, called the haram, on the lands in its possession.

As for the freedom of worship, the dhimmi are prohibited only from external manifestations of worship, such as the ringing of bells, processions with the cross, solemn funerals, and the public sale of religious objects or other articles prohibited for Muslims. A Muslim man who marries a Christian or a Jew must leave her free to practice her religion and also to consume the foods permitted by her religion, even if they are forbidden for Muslims, such as pork or wine. The dhimmi may maintain or repair the churches or synagogues they already have, but, unless there is a treaty permitting them to own land, they may not build new places of worship, because to do this they would need to occupy Muslim land, which can never be ceded to anyone, having become, through Muslim conquest, land “sacred” to Allah.

In Sura 9:29 the Koran affirms that the “people of the Book,” apart from being constrained to pay the two taxes mentioned above, must be placed under certain restrictions, such as dressing in a special way and not being allowed to bear arms or ride on horseback. Furthermore, the dhimmi may not serve in the army, be functionaries of the state, be witnesses in trials between Muslims, take the daughters of Muslims as their wives, be the guardians of underage Muslims, or keep Muslim slaves. They may not inherit from Muslims, nor Muslims from them, but legacies are permitted.

The release of the dhimma came about above all through conversion of the “people of the Book” to islam; but Muslims, especially in the early centuries, did not look favorably upon such conversions, because they represented a grave loss to the treasury, which flourished in direct proportion to the number of the dhimmi, who paid both the personal tax and the land tax. The dissolution of dhimma status could also take place through failure to observe the “treaty”; that is, if the dhimmi took up arms against Muslims, refused to remain subject or to pay tribute, abducted a Muslim woman, blasphemed or offended the prophet Mohammed and the Islamic religion, or if they drew a Muslim away from Islam, converting him to their own religion. According to the gravity of each case, the penalty could be the confiscation of goods, reduction to slavery, or death – unless the person who had committed the crimes converted to Islam. In that case, all penalties were waived.

CONSEQUENCE: THE EROSION OF CHRISTIANITY
It is evident that the condition of the dhimmi, prolonged through centuries, has led slowly but inexorably to the near extinction of Christianity in Muslim lands: the condition of civil inferiority, which prevented Christians from attaining public offices, and the condition of religious inferiority, which closed them in an asphyxiated religious life and practice with no possibility of development, put the Christians to the necessity of emigrating, or, more frequently, to the temptation of converting to Islam. There was also the fact that a Christian could not marry a Muslim woman without converting to Islam, in part because her children had to be educated in that faith. Furthermore, a Christian who became Muslim could divorce very easily, whereas Christianity prohibited divorce. And apart from all this, the Christians in Muslim territories were seriously divided among themselves – and frequently even enemies – because they belonged to Churches that were different by confession (Chalcedonian and non-Chalcedonian Churches) and by rite (Syro-oriental, Antiochian, Maronite, Coptic-Alexandrian, Armenian, Byzantine). Thus mutual assistance was almost impossible.

The regime of the dhimma lasted for over a millennium, even if not always and everywhere in the harsh form called “the conditions of ‘Umar,” according to which Christians not only did not have the right to construct new churches and restore existing ones, even if they fell into ruins (and, if they had the permission to construct through the good will of the Muslim governor, the churches could not be of large dimensions: the building must be more modest than all the religious buildings around it); but the largest and most beautiful churches had to be transformed into mosques. That transformation made it impossible for the church-mosques ever to be restored to the Christian community, because a place that has become a mosque cannot be put to another use.

The consequence of the dhimma regime was the “erosion” of the Christian communities and the conversion of many Christians to Islam for economic, social, and political motives: to find a better job, enjoy a better social status, participate in administrative, political, and military life, and in order not to live in a condition of perpetual discrimination.

In recent centuries, the dhimma system has undergone some modifications, in part because the ideas of citizenship and the equality of all citizens before the state have gained a foothold even in Muslim countries. Nevertheless, in practice, the traditional conception is still present. [, ] The Christian, whether he wish it or not, is brought back in spite of himself to the concept of the dhimmi, even if the term no longer appears in the present-day laws of a good number of Muslim-majority countries.

To understand the present condition of these Christians, we must refer back to the history of the 19th and 20th centuries. In the Ottoman empire of the 19th century, where the millet system was in force, the tanzimat, “regulations” of a liberal character, were introduced. [, ] From the second half of the 19th century to the end of the first World War, there was a “Reawakening” (Nahda) movement in the Arab world, under Western influence, in the fields of literature, language, and thought. Many intellectuals were conquered by liberal ideas.

On another front, the Christians created strong ties with the Western powers – France and Great Britain in particular – which, after the dissolution of the Ottoman empire, obtained the protectorate of the countries that had belonged to the empire. This permitted the Christians both greater civil and religious liberty and cultural advancement. Moreover, during the first half of the 20th century various political parties of nationalist and socialist, and thus secularist, tendencies were born, such as the Ba’th, the Socialist Party of the Arab Renewal, founded at the end of the 1930’s in Damascus by Syrian professor Michel ‘Aflaz, a Greek Orthodox. In 1953 this party was united with the Syrian Popular Party, founded in 1932 by Antun Sa’ada, a Greek Orthodox from Lebanon. In brief, political regimes inspired by the liberal and secular principles of Western Europe rose up in various Islamic countries.

THE BIRTH OF RADICAL ISLAM
These events provoked a harsh reaction in the Islamic world, due to fears that the secularist ideas and “corrupt” customs of the Western world, identified with Christianity, would endanger the purity of Islam and constitute a deadly threat to its very existence. This reaction was fed by strong resentment against the Western powers, which had dared to impose their political rule upon Islam, “the greatest nation ever raised up by Allah among men” (Koran, s. 3:110), and against their customs “despised” by the “nation (umma) that urges to goodness, promotes justice, and restrains iniquity” (ibid, s. 3:104).

Thus was born “radical Islam,” which set itself up as the interpreter of the frustrations of the Muslim masses. Hasan al Banna, Sayyd Qutb, Abd al-Qadir ‘Uda in Egypt with the Muslim Brotherhood; Abu l-A‘li al-Mawdudi in Pakistan, and the Ayatollah Khomeini in Iran are its most significant witnesses, and their followers have spread from Dakar to Kuala Lumpur. [, ]

THE PRESENT CONDITION OF CHRISTIANS IN THE MUSLIM WORLD
Radical Islam, which proposes that shari’a law be instituted in every Islamic state, is gaining ground in many Muslim countries, in which groups of Christians are also present. It is evident that the institution of shari’a would render the lives of Christians rather difficult, and their very existence would be constantly in danger. This is the cause of the mass emigration of Christians from Islamic countries to Western countries: Europe, the United States, Canada, and Australia. [, ] The estimated number of Arab Christians who have emigrated from Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, and Israel in the last decade hovers around three million, which is from 26.5 to 34.1 percent of the estimated number of Christians currently living in the Middle East.

Furthermore, we must not underestimate grave recent actions against Christians in some Muslim-majority countries. In Algeria, the bishop of Orano, P. Claverie (1996), seven Trappist monks from Tibehirini (1999), four White Fathers (1994), and six sisters from various religious congregations have been brutally killed by Islamic fundamentalists, although the murders were condemned by numerous Muslim authorities. In Pakistan, which numbers 3,800,000 Christians among a population of 156,000,000 (96 percent Muslim), on October 28, 2001, some Muslims entered the Church of St. Dominic in Bahawalpur and gunned down 18 Christians. On May 6, 1998, Catholic bishop John Joseph killed himself for protesting against the blasphemy law, which punishes with death anyone who offends Mohammed, even only “by speaking words, or by actions and through allusions, directly or indirectly.” For example, by saying that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, one offends Mohammed, who affirmed that Jesus is not the Son of God, but his “servant.” With this kind of law, Christians are in constant danger of death.

In Nigeria – where 13 states have introduced shari’a as state law – several thousand Christians have been the victims of incidents. Serious incidents are taking place in the south of the Philippines and in Indonesia, which, with its 212 million inhabitants, is the most populous Muslim country in the world, to the harm of the Christians of Java, East Timor, and the Moluccas. But the most tragic situation – and, unfortunately, forgotten by the Western world! – is that of Sudan, where the North is Arab and Muslim, and the South black and Christian, and in part, animist. Since the time of president G.M. Nimeiry, there has been a state of civil war between the North, which has proclaimed shari’a and intends to impose it with fierce violence on the rest of the country, and the South, which aims to preserve and defend its Christian identity. The North makes use of all of its military power – financed by oil exports to the West – to destroy Christian villages; prevent the arrival of humanitarian aid; kill the cattle, which are the means of sustenance for many South Sudanese; and carry out raids, for Christian girls in particular, who are brought to the North, raped, and sold as slaves or concubines to rich, older Sudanese men. According to the 2001 report of Amnesty International, “at the end of 2000, the civil war, which started again in 1983, had cost the lives of almost two million persons and had caused the forced evacuation of 4,500,000 more. Tens of thousands of persons have been compelled by terror to leave their homes in the upper Nile region, which is rich in oil, after aerial bombardments, mass executions, and torture.”

We must, finally, recall a fact that is often forgotten because Saudi Arabia is the largest provider of oil to the Western world, and the latter therefore has an interest in not disturbing relations with that country. In reality, in Saudi Arabia, where wahhabism is in force, not only is it impossible to build a church or even a tiny place of worship, but any act of Christian worship or any sign of Christian faith is severely prohibited with the harshest penalties. Thus about a million Christians working in Saudi Arabia are deprived by violence of any Christian practice or sign. They may participate in mass or in other Christian practices – and even then with the serious danger of losing their jobs – only on the property of the foreign oil companies. And yet, Saudi Arabia spends billions of petrodollars, not for the benefit of its poor citizens or of poor Muslims in other Muslim countries, but to construct mosques and madrasas in Europe and to finance the imams of the mosques in all the Western countries. We recall that the Roman mosque of Monte Antenne, constructed on land donated by the Italian government, was principally financed by Saudi Arabia and was built to be the largest mosque in Europe, in the very heart of Christianity.

__________

Softee:

In Christianity:

1.)The sick are healed

Alledgedly. Chances are a good number are akin to the placebo effect, a good number are false and/or exaggerations, and others are just natural and would have happened anyway.

2.)Demons are cast out

Allegedly

3.)Tongues are spoken to speak to the spirit

Gibberish, at least to some denominations.

4.)Holy spirit enters people

So some claim.

5.)Words spoken out of another persons mouth can come directly from God

Why God doesn't just quit her age old game of hide and go seek, and just speak directly for herself, is an issue that is usually handwaved away by them with teh voices in tehir head.

6.) Beauty of Jesus can be seen in People

Surprisingly, or not so unsurprisingly, they are usually not Christians.

All this is done in Jesus name. However muslims see him as just a prophet, can you do the above in mohammed's name?? So how can Jesus be a prophet??

Who said he was a prophet?

As always the KAG is here hacking God as usual.

Denying Him in your head wont stop the nagging in your heart

Dont even bother to respond, i am just an ignorant religious person

xkape:

As always the KAG is here hacking God as usual.

The KAG? You make me sound like some kind of a machine or something, in fact, I like it, I'll use it. Also I'm not, or was not hacking God as usual (more difficult than you could probably imagine - no pun intended), I was hacking claims made in her name.

Denying Him in your head wont stop the nagging in your heart

My heart doesn't nag, she's good; but yeah, denying Allah in your head won't stop the nagging in your heart either, so there.

Dont even bother to respond, i am just an ignorant religious person

Yes, yes you can be sometimes, but it isn't because of religion.

KAG:

The KAG? You make me sound like some kind of a machine or something, in fact, I like it, I'll use it. Also I'm not, or was not hacking God as usual (more difficult than you could probably imagine - no pun intended), I was hacking claims made in her name.

My heart doesn't nag, she's good; but yeah, denying Allah in your head won't stop the nagging in your heart either, so there.

Yes, yes you can be sometimes, but it isn't because of religion.

KAg, you go around all nigerian forums denying God and making him look like he doesn't exist.
I actually look at most of your religion related posts and laugh, you know why?
Cos of your clear ignorance. your posts show you have been deceived by obvious lies and that speaks a lot.
You need to stop denying God in you, he may just decide to forget you and that will be very bad for you and anybody associated to you.
And watch your speeches and writeups so you dont end up in apostacy.

In the eyes of God there is no difference between someone who denies him and someone who worships a false god.
Kag needs repentance and so does anyone who has not yet accepted Jesus as Lord and saviour.

babyosisi:

In the eyes of God there is no difference between someone who denies him and someone who worships a false god.
Kag needs repentance and so does anyone who has not yet accepted Jesus as Lord and saviour.

I doubt God will ever prove himself to him. God will prove himself to someone who is completely ignorant of him, not one who knows himand keeps denying him.
What he does is allow such a persons cup to get full before dealing finally with that person.

@KAG
yes God can be that mean, he is not all goody goody.

Viper:

KAg, you go around all nigerian forums denying God and making him look like he doesn't exist.

No, good heavens no. I only post in TWO Nigerian forums, this one and the Ryders one. I only came to this forum, because the admin posted some good satire on NR, which of course made me want to read more, which in turn led me to this section, so no I don't do what you've claimed, so please retract.

P.S. Story on how how I came accross NR by accident, will have to be saved for another day.

I actually look at most of your religion related posts and laugh, you know why?
Cos of your clear ignorance. your posts show you have been deceived by obvious lies and that speaks a lot.

That's wonderful, obvious lies for those that don't subscribe to your school of thought, and inerant truth for those on your side. Who needs to actually back up claims and give reasons, when flippant statements are a dime a dozen anyway.

You need to stop denying God in you, he may just decide to forget you and that will be very bad for you and anybody associated to you.

And you need to stop denying Brahma in you, or *all of that*.

And watch your speeches and writeups so you don't end up in apostacy.

I thought I was already an apostate? Must try harder I guess.

Viper:

@KAG
yes God can be that mean, he is not all goody goody.

Indeed, I mean who can forget that whole Titanic debacle.

Viper:

Retract to where? Where u post on doesn't realy bother me, its you that does.

Retract your claim that I "go around all nigerian forums denying God and making him look like he doesn't exist". That isn't true.

What proofs do you want before you believe? You want God to come down fromheaven because of you?
I don't think that will happen, at least not now, you are not proving to him that you are worth it even.
You get what you deserve, if you want God to prove himself to you, you have to prove yourself worthy first.
You are too little for the sky to drop for you. you better think about your life and your seeming all-knowing self.

I don't expect anything from the non-existent, I have thought about my life, and I have never claimed to be all knowing.

You can't even prove that God doesn't exist. You can't prove your exisence yourself.

No, I can't.

You amuse me truely. Keep rolling in the mud of ignorance, i only pray it wont be too late for you.

Indeed.

Keep trying, you might just meet what you never wished you met

That would be bizarre, yes. Imagine meeting Ritchie Falzone, that would truly suck.

Kag start a thread about your non belief and we shall join you there.

babyosisi:

Kag start a thread about your non belief and we shall join you there.

What a thread titled "I'm an atheist", followed by "now what"? Sure, why not.

dear Softee,

in reply to:

1.)The sick are healed
2.)Demons are cast out
3.)Tongues are spoken to speak to the spirit
4.)Holy spirit enters people
5.)Words spoken out of another persons mouth can come directly from God
6.) Beauty of Jesus can be seen in People

and not to mention the nice Christian image of the Cross with the title "The greatest gift is for one to lay down his life for another"



In Islam, from my observation, and please forgive me I am not a muslim but am a Christian, I think, In Islam the sick are healed, demons are cast out, Tongues have been spoken to speak to the spirti, the Holy Spirit is in everyone and resides throughout the Earth sent by Allah, The holy spirit is in everyone, words spoken out of another persons mouth (I dunno, say, the Prophet Muhammed (peace be upon him) did come from God, well actually the angel Gabriel who as we all know is the angel who speaks for God, and the beauty of Jesus is seen in the people.

And as far as the greatest gift one can give is to lay down their life for another, what do you think a suicide bomber is doing? They are layinng down their lives so their people will be avenged for all the evil donkey fodder that has be prescribed to them by the west covert groups and capitalistic hate mungers.

enjoy

will u be my friend?

babyosisi is a sisi

Hey babyosisi!

According to Muslim law, Christians, Jews, and the followers of other religions assimilated to Christianity and Judaism (the “Sabeans”) who live in a Muslim state belong to an inferior social order, in spite of their eventually belonging to the same race, language, and descent. Islamic law does not recognize the concepts of nation and citizenship, but only the umma, the one Islamic community, for which reason a Muslim, as he is part of the umma, may live in any Islamic country as he would in his homeland: he is subject to the same laws, finds the same customs, and enjoys the same consideration.

Is this why the Chaldean Christian community in Mosul iraq has had fewer atrocities commited against them by the former Baathst Regime members, Insurgents of any type whether it is Shia or Sunni, Saddams group, or by foreign terrorists? 1.3 million Christians, (real Christians might I add) and I dont even think more than a 100 of them have been killed by any radical group within Iraq since the war began. Curious? Why is that? our leadership in the states say they hate us! They hate our freedom! They hate our Christianity! But a significant Christian group in one of the most violent areas within the middle east go about their daily lives as best as possible with fewer incidences of agression commited against thm, than there are of their islamic counterparts. Why is this? Is it becase you never stop to look at these situatons?

hu?

?

Also Babyosisi,

yes they may state that Sabians belong to a lower/different social order because we would in a muslim land. Because of their "community" based social structure, with all the laws that govern their states being the same we (the occident) would find it unorthodox. But some of the social differences of the islamic nations are actually quite unique in many ways. To exemplify: No payment of interest is allowed or mandated by any financial institution for interest is against the law of the book. I dont know about you, but if I did not have to pay interest on my morgage or student loans I would be happier than a mofo.

bajoule

willu bemy friend
I hate rednecks. And I hate the fact that I hate.

did I scare u guys away.

oh NO here comes bajoule, Ruuuuuuuuuunnnn!