I was over at a friend's house yesterday, and unfortunately for me, they just happened to be watching a TV evangelist preaching. Of course, I had to be a good guest and endure the torture.
Now, this particular American evangelist happened to be much more intellectual and honest than most Tv evangelists that i have had the displeasure of listening to.
The Topic of the sermon was " Dealing with the problem of Homosexuality.
He started by saying that no one ever makes a choice to be homosexual. This was a groundbreaking admission of fact, coming from an evangelical preacher. He then went on to say that though it was not a genetic trait, no one knew for sure why people were born homosexual or became homosexual in the very early stages of life.

But then he went on to preach how god (the supposed creator of all things) hated it then in the old testament, and hates it now in the new dispensation(whatever that mean, lol).

As I thought about most of what he preached, it was easy to discern that none of it makes any sense in the context of everything that christians believe.

Even as I don't accept religious beliefs, I make very honest attempts to understand them, to at least see where they are coming from.
That is why religious belief has always been a problem for me to absorb and or digest.
Just as in my youth, it always seem that religious beliefs contradict religious beliefs.

The subject of homosexuality seems to be a rallying point of some sort for christians, notably evangelical christians.

I suspect that faith is sooo, eehhm . eehhmm, porous, so fragile, so unstable that religious folks always need one focal point or another to revalidate and recharge their beliefs and faith.
Homosexuality seem to be, for them, a permanent focal point, recharge station where christians can always look upon to recharge their porous and unstable faith when the faith-meter goes into reserve tank.

" I hate homosexuality, therefore I am a christian" seem to fill up the faith tank any time there is a need.

Therefore, I have a few very honest questions for very honest christians or religious folks on the issue of homosexuality.

1. Is homosexual fornication a graver sin than regular fornication? How and why?

1.1. Is your fraudster neighbor on your right less of a worry to you than your homosexual neighbor on your left?

2. Who created homosexuals, god or satan?
God, according to your beliefs, created everyone with every trait and every talent, good or bad.

3. Does god hate homosexuality? If yes, why? And who's fault is it?

4. Ok . So god hates homosexuality. Fine. So What else do you know for sure that god hates?

5. Did god ask you to hate homosexuality on his behalf as part of your devotion to him? If yes, then what else are you hating on his behalf?

6. God, for example, also hates people who do not keep the sabbat(saturdays) holy. Do you also extend this hate on his behalf?

7. In summary, as humans with all the crap that is hidden in your minds and in your hearts, are you at all competent to usurp the perrogative of god's ultimate judgement onto yourselves?
By anchoring your faith on hating one particular sin on behalf of god, are you not subconsciously implying that god is perhaps an incompetent judge of his creation?

My views on homosexuality in the light of Nigerian politics

http://yesufu..com/2014/01/on-nigerian-anti-gay-marriage-law.html

I will return to answer some of your questions

plaetton:

1. Is homosexual fornication a graver sin than regular fornication? How and why?

1.1. Is your fraudster neighbor on your right less of a worry to you than your homosexual neighbor on your left?

2. Who created homosexuals, god or satan?
God, according to your beliefs, created everyone with every trait and every talent, good or bad.

3. Does god hate homosexuality? If yes, why? And who's fault is it?

4. Ok . So god hates homosexuality. Fine. So What else do you know for sure that god hates?

5. Did god ask you to hate homosexuality on his behalf as part of your devotion to him? If yes, then what else are you hating on his behalf?

6. God, for example, also hates people who do not keep the sabbat(saturdays) holy. Do you also extend this hate on his behalf?

7. In summary, as humans with all the crap that is hidden in your minds and in your hearts, are you at all competent to usurp the perrogative of god's ultimate judgement onto yourselves?
By anchoring your faith on hating one particular sin on behalf of god, are you not subconsciously implying that god is perhaps an incompetent judge of his creation?

1. No. It is not. Society may have labelled homosexuality worse but both are equally grave sins before God. In fact the mere thought of immorality in ones hearth is equally as grave as the act of homosexuality. God is holy. And he judges all men by that standard.

1.1. Both are a worry to me, equally. If I live in a neighbourhood and have neighbours as you describe, I would be concerned for my kids. So I will teach my children the way of God so that on encountering these men, they can avoid them, both.

2. God created all things good. Sin perverted human nature. If anyone says he is born with gay genes - it makes sense to me. We all are born sinners anyway. So God created all things good; Satan influenced all things evil.

3. No God does not hate homosexuals. He loves them and died for them. God hates homosexuality, same as he hates fornication, murder, envy or jelousy.

4. Answered.

5. No he did not. However, like him I do hate and detest the act. Same as I would hate and detest any other sin. However, I am called to love the homosexual. There is a challenge there. But as God gives wisdom and grace we maintain a balance. I must love the homosexual enough to show him his way and possibly help lead him out of it.

6. Questions on sabbath observance, like tithing, offerings, burnt offerings and circumcision, are done away with an old dispensation. Jesus gave us a dispensation of grace now, characterized by love, faith and hope.

7. No. All judgement belongs to God. My hatred for homosexuality however is imitating God's righteous nature, something he calls me to do as his son, Ephesians 5:1.

My questions to you:

1. You are atheist, are you gay also?

2. Do you find any command in the bible that commands Christians to hate gays?

3. Why these advocacy for gays?

4. If your child tomorrow announces he/she is gay, what will be your response?

5. Why does atheism sound more like hatred for Christians?

6. Do you, sir, hate Christians?

7. If indeed there is a God, do you think there is some wisdom in creating man male and female, and not male and Male or female and female?

DrummaBoy:


My questions to you:

1. You are atheist, are you gay also?

2. Do you find any command in the bible that commands Christians to hate gays?

3. Why these advocacy for gays?

4. If your child tomorrow announces he/she is gay, what will be your response?

5. Why does atheism sound more like hatred for Christians?

6. Do you, sir, hate Christians?

7. If indeed there is a God, do you think there is some wisdom in creating man male and female, and not male and Male or female and female?

My answers to your questons:

1. Yes, I am an atheist. And no , I am not gay.

2. I have found commands in the bible that commands to kill people for acts of homosexuality, as well as many other sins.

3. I don't don't know what you mean by advocacy for gays. I advocate acceptance and tolerance for everyone and of everyone.
As Africans, we have historically been the most rejected, the most humiliated, the most exploited, the most degraded, enslaved people on the planet. As a people who have suffered so much by virtue of our skin color, on the basis of just being who we are, we should be the most sympathetic to the causes of all those similarly rejected on the basis their natural traits.
I used to be very homophobic, and still feel a tad uncomfortable with it, but homosexuality poses no risk to my life and well being. I should not, and no one should hate another for harmless acts the person does in the privacy of their bedrooms.

Singling out gays or homosexual acts for recriminations, discriminations and hate for religious reasons is the most eggregious act of s.t.u.pidity, especially by an African, who himself has suffered centuries of degradation, also on the basis of the same religion.

4. My love for my child sacrosanct and unconditional. It would be a new challenge of love for me, but I would never reject my own child.

5. Well, most atheists that I know used to be , or were brought up in christian households or communities. Therefore it is easy for an atheist to understand christianity, many times much more than those that practice it.

Also, as former christians who are surrounded by christians in our communities, we are constantly harrassed, and suffer much the irrationality of the religious folks around us. Therefore, christianity is always in our minds. there is hardly a single that passes without some i.d.i.ot trying to show me the loving ways of the invisible skymonster.

Also, atheists are curious folks who take to time to study other religions in their present and historical forms. As far as my research and personal observations, I can tell you, and many many atheists agree, christianity is the most fraudulently contrived religion among the major world religions. It is , in my opinion, one founded on fraud, built on fraud, perpetuated by fraud, and currently sustained by fraud.

Since a cactus tree cannot bear banana fruits, it employs a lot of bizzaar and irrational slight-of-hand tricks to sustain itself. That is why it is soooo easy to tear apart and mock.

6. No , of course not.
Everyone is human first, before anything other titles. I can never in my being hate anyone on the basis of what they believe. If I can hate people for what they believe, then I too should be hated for what I don't believe.

In fact ,I have a fascination with the different belief systems found throughout the world.

Knowing the history of christianity, I am, nevertheless, bothered with my African people's obsession with it, especially in this era enlightenment and explosion of knowledge, in this same era where those who brought it to us as a tool to exploit us, have been gradually walking away from it because of it's toxic and destructive nature on the human mind.

I see these abrahamic religions in the same way I see radioactive nuclear wastes dumped in Africa, a toxic material, once useful for power, but now certain to cause very long term damages to unsuspecting victims in the present and the yet-to-be-born generations.

If you live in Nigeria, just stop and look around you, and honestly tell me if you do not see evidence of a toxic material devastating the mental and intellectual landscape of your environment.

In Nigeria, my neighbor's religious beliefs has direct negative impacts on my life, no matter how much I try to run away from it.
Have you ever been stuck on the Lagos-Ibadan expressway on a Friday afternoon evening? If you were critically ill and being rushed to the hospital through that road on such a day, you most likely would die in traffic because of your neighbor's religious belief.
I could go on and on, but I think you get my gist by now.

7. With all due respect, this last is kind of ...ehhm ehhm, silly.
First, as a christian, I am pretty sure you do not question your god's wisdom. You do not have the mental capacity to understand his wisdom and logic. This I have been reminded many many times by christians in and outside NL. If your god created homosexual gene, in the same way that he created left-handed people, very short people, very tall people, black people, white people, Mongoloid people, Pigmies, etc, then who are you to second guess his motives?
Who is the rebel and blasphemer here?

And also, when exactly does your bible say that satan came in and recreated humans with defective genes?
Satan is always the everpresent , very convenient fallguy for your imaginary god's many many failings.
lol.

Good day sir.

Thank you plaetton for the response.

I will make two posts here: this one responds to your last response and the next one to tell you my perception of atheist.

I want to say upfront that you answered all my questions, save for number 7, which I will endeavor to elucidate on right now. But before I do that, is there a need for you to look up my answers to your questions and to discuss them or we simply proceed?

Que 7 meant what it said: is there a wisdom in creating man male and female if indeed there is a God? That question is double edged bc it questions the root of atheism and homosexuality at the same time.

It actually is not sufficient to resort to the "God made genes argument" to discuss the answer bc I have told you earlier that God made all things good. Evil came into this world through satan and corrupted all the good that God made and thus even human genes might be born defective with homosexuality (if indeed this is true bc I permit that argument as it has become the leading argument among gays) but the gene problem can be "fixed" in a born again person.

Now we have a challenge with this discussion. I am speaking from the point of view of biblical knowledge. You are debating from the point of view of universal knowledge. Thus we do not have a basis for discussion. However we both can create one. Since most atheist are former Christians with some knowledge of scriptures, let's discuss all these based on the bible. And I will permit your reference to any other material, source which is verifiable.

Thanks and to my views on atheist...

plaetton: 1. Is homosexual fornication a graver sin than regular fornication? How and why?

No!

plaetton:
1.1. Is your fraudster neighbor on your right less of a worry to you than your homosexual neighbor on your left?

No! Both would worry me.

plaetton:
2. Who created homosexuals, god or satan?
God, according to your beliefs, created everyone with every trait and every talent, good or bad.

God!

All things (material or immaterial; good or bad etc) derive their existence from God, whether directly or indirectly.

plaetton:
3. Does god hate homosexuality? If yes, why? And who's fault is it?

Yes!

He intends humans to engage in the conjugal act in the appropriate way. Married and with the opposite sex.

No one's fault!

plaetton:
4. Ok . So god hates homosexuality. Fine. So What else do you know for sure that god hates?

Too numerous to start listing.

plaetton:
5. Did god ask you to hate homosexuality on his behalf as part of your devotion to him? If yes, then what else are you hating on his behalf?

Homosexuality is sinful and God wants us to avoid sin. So Yes, he asked us to hate Homosexuality.

I hate every sin. Not on his behalf.

plaetton:
6. God, for example, also hates people who do not keep the sabbat(saturdays) holy. Do you also extend this hate on his behalf?

God does not hate people! I agree that he hates sin but not people. There is a difference! Before now, you have been careful to focus on sin, so I wonder how we moved from that to the person.

plaetton:
7. In summary, as humans with all the crap that is hidden in your minds and in your hearts, are you at all competent to usurp the perrogative of god's ultimate judgement onto yourselves?
By anchoring your faith on hating one particular sin on behalf of god, are you not subconsciously implying that god is perhaps an incompetent judge of his creation?

I do not hate homosexuality on God's behalf.

plaetton:

My answers to your questons:

1. Yes, I am an atheist. And no , I am not gay.

2. I have found commands in the bible that commands to kill people for acts of homosexuality, as well as many other sins.

3. I don't don't know what you mean by advocacy for gays. I advocate acceptance and tolerance for everyone and of everyone.
As Africans, we have historically been the most rejected, the most humiliated, the most exploited, the most degraded, enslaved people on the planet. As a people who have suffered so much by virtue of our skin color, on the basis of just being who we are, we should be the most sympathetic to the causes of all those similarly rejected on the basis their natural traits.
I used to be very homophobic, and still feel a tad uncomfortable with it, but homosexuality poses no risk to my life and well being. I should not, and no one should hate another for harmless acts the person does in the privacy of their bedrooms.

Singling out gays or homosexual acts for recriminations, discriminations and hate for religious reasons is the most eggregious act of s.t.u.pidity, especially by an African, who himself has suffered centuries of degradation, also on the basis of the same religion.

4. My love for my child sacrosanct and unconditional. It would be a new challenge of love for me, but I would never reject my own child.

5. Well, most atheists that I know used to be , or were brought up in christian households or communities. Therefore it is easy for an atheist to understand christianity, many times much more than those that practice it.

Also, as former christians who are surrounded by christians in our communities, we are constantly harrassed, and suffer much the irrationality of the religious folks around us. Therefore, christianity is always in our minds. there is hardly a single that passes without some i.d.i.ot trying to show me the loving ways of the invisible skymonster.

Also, atheists are curious folks who take to time to study other religions in their present and historical forms. As far as my research and personal observations, I can tell you, and many many atheists agree, christianity is the most fraudulently contrived religion among the major world religions. It is , in my opinion, one founded on fraud, built on fraud, perpetuated by fraud, and currently sustained by fraud.

Since a cactus tree cannot bear banana fruits, it employs a lot of bizzaar and irrational slight-of-hand tricks to sustain itself. That is why it is soooo easy to tear apart and mock.

6. No , of course not.
Everyone is human first, before anything other titles. I can never in my being hate anyone on the basis of what they believe. If I can hate people for what they believe, then I too should be hated for what I don't believe.

In fact ,I have a fascination with the different belief systems found throughout the world.

Knowing the history of christianity, I am, nevertheless, bothered with my African people's obsession with it, especially in this era enlightenment and explosion of knowledge, in this same era where those who brought it to us as a tool to exploit us, have been gradually walking away from it because of it's toxic and destructive nature on the human mind.

I see these abrahamic religions in the same way I see radioactive nuclear wastes dumped in Africa, a toxic material, once useful for power, but now certain to cause very long term damages to unsuspecting victims in the present and the yet-to-be-born generations.

If you live in Nigeria, just stop and look around you, and honestly tell me if you do not see evidence of a toxic material devastating the mental and intellectual landscape of your environment.

In Nigeria, my neighbor's religious beliefs has direct negative impacts on my life, no matter how much I try to run away from it.
Have you ever been stuck on the Lagos-Ibadan expressway on a Friday afternoon evening? If you were critically ill and being rushed to the hospital through that road on such a day, you most likely would die in traffic because of your neighbor's religious belief.
I could go on and on, but I think you get my gist by now.

7. With all due respect, this last is kind of ...ehhm ehhm, silly.
First, as a christian, I am pretty sure you do not question your god's wisdom. You do not have the mental capacity to understand his wisdom and logic. This I have been reminded many many times by christians in and outside NL. If your god created homosexual gene, in the same way that he created left-handed people, very short people, very tall people, black people, white people, Mongoloid people, Pigmies, etc, then who are you to second guess his motives?
Who is the rebel and blasphemer here?

And also, when exactly does your bible say that satan came in and recreated humans with defective genes?
Satan is always the everpresent , very convenient fallguy for your imaginary god's many many failings.
lol.

Good day sir.

On a second thought, I have decided to suspend discussions on my thoughts on atheism. I think its not the subject of the thread. I will rather attend to some of the answers you provided to my questions.

Taking it by the numbers:

2. As regarding commands to kill gays under the Mosaic laws, this is true. But the laws of Moses are not Christian injunctions. Those laws were neccesary to administrate the civil and religious lives of the Jews of those days. With coming of Christ, there is a marked difference in handling such issues now. Nations have civil laws that govern them. Like the anti gay law just passed in Nigeria, different countries enact different laws to handle such issues. But religiously, no Christian has a command to kill gays.

3. I believe I spoke extensively against discriminating against gays in my blog, so we on the same page here.

But do you realize another twist in society today? Gays are the ones now discriminating against non gays. Clamping down heavily on them? Doing the same things they claim to have suffered in the past. Gays too should learn to respect people's views even if it is homophobic. We all must learn tolerance.

4. I will take a similar position. But you at least appreciate the fact that having gays in society or family is a challenge.

5. One thing that the atheist need to appreciate is that the true Christian also detest religion. The term Christian can generally depict three sets of people:

1. Folks who are generally steeped in the rituals and forms of Christianity. These individuals are not born again. They are mostly born into a Christian home and profess the name alone. The vast majority of Christendom consist of folks like these and they are the ones known to have perpetrated the worst evil against humanity through history. If you judge Christianity by these folks, you would always come off wrong. BTW they are found in every Christian denomination.

2. Those who are born again but still held captive by religious forms and rituals. These ones can be excused bc the Christian walk is a daily shedding of dead works, which these group are mostly bound to.

3. Born again Christians learning, daily, the way of the Spirit. These folks are not perfect; unfortunately only a tiny percentage of Christendom are in these class. These are the folks atheist need to learn from. I humbly submit this is the group I identify with.

Everyone of these folks can be found in all Christian denominations.

6. I agree that Christianity can be a source of nuisance sometimes. I will lay the blame at the doorsteps of group 1 and 2 above. The lag-ib express issue is a big embarrassment. I really pray that those churches will do something about it soon.

In all, the Christian perception of gays must be divorced from the unfortunate situation in which men without the holy spirit who populate majority of Christendom have handled it. This however does not justify homosexuality. Like I argued in the blog essay, I am convinced homosexuality is a psychological disorder that can respond to treatment. The world should proffer solutions to it, in the same manner it is pursuing cure to AIDS; and not justify it. This is the reason God created our first parents Adam and Eve and not Adam and Steve; or Madam and Eve.

striktlymi:

No!



No! Both would worry me.



God!

All things (material or immaterial; good or bad etc) derive their existence from God, whether directly or indirectly.



Yes!

He intends humans to engage in the conjugal act in the appropriate way. Married and with the opposite sex.

No one's fault!



Too numerous to start listing.



Homosexuality is sinful and God wants us to avoid sin. So Yes, he asked us to hate Homosexuality.

I hate every sin. Not on his behalf.



God does not hate people! I agree that he hates sin but not people. There is a difference! Before now, you have been careful to focus on sin, so I wonder how we moved from that to the person.



I do not hate homosexuality on God's behalf.

Thank you for your response.

My questions for you.

1. You said that god asked you to hate homosexuality.
Where in the bible did he say that?

Did Jesus not ask you to love others as yourself, treat others as you like them to treat you, and " Judge not others, for ye shall also be judged" ?

I also remember " he that is without sin should cast the first stone".

So,by arrogating to yourself the perogative of judgement, have you beforehand searched and scanned your soul to make sure that you have conquered all sins, not just today, but for the rest of your mortal life?

You see, this is one of the main reasons I hold that religion and faith are irrational.
The average human being faces myraids of challenges every single day of his life.
Trying to be good and virtuous is a great challenge, trying to be always truthful, honest, considerate, kind, patience, charitable, etc everyday of one's life is a great challenge for the average human being. So, in other words, the conquest of self is the greatest conquest of all, and is only really accomplished when the virtuous person finally dies.

Therefore, an ordinary human being like yourself, whom, if he is sincere, should be attending and battling his own inner demons ( and we all have one or two) should have zero time complaining and hating the speck in another human's eye, when he should be busy trying to pull out the log in his own eyes. This exactly what Jesus supposedly said.

So, sir,and all others, the next you are inclined to hate another person's purported sin, take a time off to contemplate on the logs scattered across your own eyes, and on your path.
If you do this, you will soon realize that you really have no time to see other people sins, talkless of hating them.

And sin you concede that god created homosexuals , and therefore the act of homosexuality itself, let him take responsibility and sort it out in his own way, at his own time.
" Judgement is mine, sayeth the lord ".
Not so?

DrummaBoy:

On a second thought, I have decided to suspend discussions on my thoughts on atheism. I think its not the subject of the thread. I will rather attend to some of the answers you provided to my questions.

Taking it by the numbers:

2. As regarding commands to kill gays under the Mosaic laws, this is true. But the laws of Moses are not Christian injunctions. Those laws were neccesary to administrate the civil and religious lives of the Jews of those days. With coming of Christ, there is a marked difference in handling such issues now. Nations have civil laws that govern them. Like the anti gay law just passed in Nigeria, different countries enact different laws to handle such issues. But religiously, no Christian has a command to kill gays.

3. I believe I spoke extensively against discriminating against gays in my blog, so we on the same page here.

But do you realize another twist in society today? Gays are the ones now discriminating against non gays. Clamping down heavily on them? Doing the same things they claim to have suffered in the past. Gays too should learn to respect people's views even if it is homophobic. We all must learn tolerance.

4. I will take a similar position. But you at least appreciate the fact that having gays in society or family is a challenge.

5. One thing that the atheist need to appreciate is that the true Christian also detest religion. The term Christian can generally depict three sets of people:

1. Folks who are generally steeped in the rituals and forms of Christianity. These individuals are not born again. They are mostly born into a Christian home and profess the name alone. The vast majority of Christendom consist of folks like these and they are the ones known to have perpetrated the worst evil against humanity through history. If you judge Christianity by these folks, you would always come off wrong. BTW they are found in every Christian denomination.

2. Those who are born again but still held captive by religious forms and rituals. These ones can be excused bc the Christian walk is a daily shedding of dead works, which these group are mostly bound to.

3. Born again Christians learning, daily, the way of the Spirit. These folks are not perfect; unfortunately only a tiny percentage of Christendom are in these class. These are the folks atheist need to learn from. I humbly submit this is the group I identify with.

Everyone of these folks can be found in all Christian denominations.

6. I agree that Christianity can be a source of nuisance sometimes. I will lay the blame at the doorsteps of group 1 and 2 above. The lag-ib express issue is a big embarrassment. I really pray that those churches will do something about it soon.

In all, the Christian perception of gays must be divorced from the unfortunate situation in which men without the holy spirit who populate majority of Christendom have handled it. This however does not justify homosexuality. Like I argued in the blog essay, I am convinced homosexuality is a psychological disorder that can respond to treatment. The world should proffer solutions to it, in the same manner it is pursuing cure to AIDS; and not justify it. This is the reason God created our first parents Adam and Eve and not Adam and Steve; or Madam and Eve.

First, gays have always been a part of human society. the issues today have to do with acceptance and their rights.
In fact , a lot of positive contributions have been made to humanity by men who had been gay , and still do .
Yes, openly gay people have challenged the norms of society, more profoundly on conservative semi/primitive societies.

Have you ever met a gay man that said the he was sick and needed treatment?
It has never been medically classified as a disease, so why are you talking about a cure?

Most importantly. please honestly answer, in what way does a gay person pose a threat to you ,so much so that you think your society should fight it?

And finally, yes, it seems that gay groups are now the ones targeting persecuting others. It is a sad irony of human nature. The victim always turn the persecutor. It is the same with blacks, the most hated race and discriminated race always being the ones most vocal against gays, or like Israel's worse than apartheid inhuman treatment of Palestinians decades after going through the horror of the Holocaust in the hands of Germans.

plaetton:

Have you ever met a gay man that said the he was sick and needed treatment?
It has never been medically classified as a disease, so why are you talking about a cure?

Most importantly. please honestly answer, in what way does a gay person pose a threat to you ,so much so that you think your society should fight it?

My position that homosexuality is a psychological disorder is a personal deduction and not based on any scientific study; even though I have heard a renowned professor of psychiatry express the same sentiments. Generally in the bible, sin is considered a defect in the mindset; so that holiness and worship of God is the consequence of renewing ones mind, Romans 12:2. Therefore, "minor" sins are a little defect in the mindset. While "heinous" sins like serial killing, paedophiles, and homosexuality are a major defect in mindset: therefore the reason why I see them as psychologically deformed.

I read the of Randy Thomas ( www.ex-gaytruth.com/encyclopedia/randy-thomas/ ) who was delivered from homosexuality through the careful ministration of a Christian group. Today he works as a counsellor to gay people finding solutions to these lifestyle. Thus the reason I say not to justify it but to see it as a problem that can solved.

I have not in any post here suggested that gays were a threats to me or that I was fighting them. Those were your own words. What I maintain is that gays should not be persecuted or maligned but can be tolerated. Gay people should also know they have problems that can be solved. Hopefully, as true Christian communities venture out to reach more and more gay people to minister to them Jesus' love, the world would realize that Christians do not hate homosexuals after all.

DrummaBoy:

My position that homosexuality is a psychological disorder is a personal deduction and not based on any scientific study; even though I have heard a renowned professor of psychiatry express the same sentiments. Generally in the bible, sin is considered a defect in the mindset; so that holiness and worship of God is the consequence of renewing ones mind, Romans 12:2. Therefore, "minor" sins are a little defect in the mindset. While "heinous" sins like serial killing, paedophiles, and homosexuality are a major defect in mindset: therefore the reason why I see them as psychologically deformed.

I read the of Randy Thomas ( ex-gaytruth.com/encyclopedia/randy-thomas/ ) who was delivered from homosexuality through the careful ministration of a Christian group. Today he works as a counsellor to gay people finding solutions to these lifestyle. Thus the reason I say not to justify it but to see it as a problem that can solved.

I have not in any post here suggested that gays were a threats to me or that I was fighting them. Those were your own words. What I maintain is that gays should not be persecuted or maligned but can be tolerated. Gay people should also know they have problems that can be solved. Hopefully, as true Christian communities venture out to reach more and more gay people to minister to them Jesus' love, the world would realize that Christians do not hate homosexuals after all.

I appreciate your candour.

plaetton:

I appreciate your candour.

Thank you.

plaetton:

Thank you for your response.

My questions for you.

1. You said that god asked you to hate homosexuality.
Where in the bible did he say that?

God asked us to hate sin. Verses abound in scriptures against homosexuality but I would prefer not to quote any.

plaetton:
Did Jesus not ask you to love others as yourself, treat others as you like them to treat you, and " Judge not others, for ye shall also be judged" ?

I also remember " he that is without sin should cast the first stone".

Correct!

plaetton:
So,by arrogating to yourself the perogative of judgement, have you beforehand searched and scanned your soul to make sure that you have conquered all sins, not just today, but for the rest of your mortal life?

I haven't judged anyone actually. I only stated my dislike for homosexuality. I never said anything about homosexuals, except that the individual would worry me just like someone engaging in any other sinful activity. How or why I am worried, I am yet to say.

plaetton:
You see, this is one of the main reasons I hold that religion and faith are irrational.
The average human being faces myraids of challenges every single day of his life.
Trying to be good and virtuous is a great challenge, trying to be always truthful, honest, considerate, kind, patience, charitable, etc everyday of one's life is a great challenge for the average human being. So, in other words, the conquest of self is the greatest conquest of all, and is only really accomplished when the virtuous person finally dies.

Agreed!

plaetton:
Therefore, an ordinary human being like yourself, whom, if he is sincere, should be attending and battling his own inner demons ( and we all have one or two) should have zero time complaining and hating the speck in another human's eye, when he should be busy trying to pull out the log in his own eyes. This exactly what Jesus supposedly said.

I am not particularly concerned about someone else' sins. My concerns are more about mine. I hate sin in general, it really doesn't matter whether it is homosexuality or not; or whether someone commits it or not. I hate sin even if no one commits sin. If there is no homosexual on Earth I would still hate the act of homosexuality.

plaetton:
So, sir,and all others, the next you are inclined to hate another person's purported sin, take a time off to contemplate on the logs scattered across your own eyes, and on your path.
If you do this, you will soon realize that you really have no time to see other people sins, talkless of hating them.

Hate for sin is not same as hate for the sinner. I hate the sins I commit too. My hate for sin has nothing to do with the individual who choose to commit the sin.

plaetton:
And sin you concede that god created homosexuals , and therefore the act of homosexuality itself, let him take responsibility and sort it out in his own way, at his own time.
" Judgement is mine, sayeth the lord ".
Not so?

I am not trying to sort it out.