The simple answer I can come up with is YES!!!

Evil does not exist because there is a devil somewhere. Evil is a direct fallout of our freedom to choose. If Satan had not existed, the tendency for man to fall would still have been there.

Man did not fall because of Satan. Man fell because he was built with the capacity to fall, just like he has the capacity to say no to sin. The question remains, would man had fallen if Satan was out of the picture?

I will not pretend to know the answer to that question but given the weakness in man, especially when he is asked specifically to avoid some things, the answer is greatly skewed towards the affirmative. Man's desires and freedom are his greatest foes.

Waiting for d scholars

Owk...

Striktlymi, i've known you as an intelligent Christian on this forum. I wonder what you want to achieve with this topic of yours, even as a Christian. This might just be your verge into apostasy.

Personally, albeit an agnostic, i do know that there's no Satan no where, only diverse opinions. As someone tolerant (i observed), i also feel that you should have come to terms with the subjectivity in this world. If an event occurs, and there happen to be eight people present, those eight people will give 8 different versions of how it happened, even in honesty.

Do not get me wrong. I am not trying to say that there is no evil, no. But, evil exists in the realm of perception.
To say that there were/are stipulated formulae/rules (and consequential rewards), will be denying reality. As evidenced by reality, "what works for Mr A, most likely may not work for Mr B."

Am thinking...

Man did not fall because of Satan. Man fell because he was built with the capacity to fall, just like he has the capacity to say no to sin. The question remains, would man had fallen if Satan was out of the picture?

Does the Yahweh character have this same "capacity to sin"?
Do the other angels have it as well?

If only the OP had studied his bible well, there might be no need for this thread.

Evil did not exist because of Satan.

Evil exists because of God

Isaiah 45:7

“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

The word Evil and God are on the same side of a coin. If the OP truly reads his Bible,he will realize Satan is nothing but a messaenger of God.

That being said,its all Mythology....no need to take it serious.

qstar: Striktlymi, i've known you as an intelligent Christian on this forum. I wonder what you want to achieve with this topic of yours, even as a Christian. This might just be your verge into apostasy.

Personally, albeit an agnostic, i do know that there's no Satan no where, only diverse opinions. As someone tolerant (i observed), i also feel that you should have come to terms with the subjectivity in this world. If an event occurs, and there happen to be eight people present, those eight people will give 8 different versions of how it happened, even in honesty.

Do not get me wrong. I am not trying to say that there is no evil, no. But, evil exists in the realm of perception.
To say that there were/are stipulated formulae/rules (and consequential rewards), will be denying reality. As evidenced by reality, "what works for Mr A, most likely may not work for Mr B."

The topic aim at bringing to the fore one very disturbing trait amongst a cross section of Christians. I have seen very many cases where people choose to shirk responsibility for one or more wrong done by blaming the Devil.

If indeed Satan is to blame for any wrong done then it would give credence to the doctrine: " Once saved, Always saved " where some have this falls notion that they cannot sin even when they do wrong.

Apatheist:
Does the Yahweh character have this same "capacity to sin"?
Do the other angels have it as well?

Angels did have that capacity. If they don't, Lucifer wouldn't have been able to revolt.

God has no capacity for sin. He is not governed by the laws of nature.

1) The heart is the thinking
aspect of man. “For as he thinks
in his heart, so is he.” (Prov. 23:7
NKJV) Jesus asks, “Why do you
think evil in your hearts?” (Matt.
9:4 NKJV) “For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts.” (Matt.
15:19 NKJV) “If that evil servant
says in his heart, ‘My master is
delaying his coming.’” (Matt.
24:48 NKJV) The evil servant says
this in his heart because that is what he is thinking. “But Mary
kept all these things and
pondered them in her
heart.” (Luke 2:19 NKJV) Mary
thought about these things and
mulled them over in her mind. One could go on and find verse
after verse in the Bible teaching
the same thing about the heart
being the place of thought,
reasoning, and understanding
within man.

rationalmind: If only the OP had studied his bible well, there might be no need for this thread.

Evil did not exist because of Satan.

Evil exists because of God

Isaiah 45:7

“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

Evil is a natural consequence of freewill. Everything in existence (whether good or bad) is a direct or indirect fallout of God's existence and His creative capabilities. This is what the verse you quoted reveals.

In itself, the creation of freewill in man is good, though it has some far reaching implications. Even at that, man was not created for evil.

Maybe, you'd need a Christian perspective to this. In my current disposition, i may not be good at it.

striktlymi:

If indeed Satan is to blame for any wrong done then it would give credence to the doctrine: " Once saved, Always saved " where some have this falls notion that they cannot sin even when they do wrong.

If indeed Satan is not to blame, then his existence becomes redundant to Christians and somehow, even the existence of the Christian God. For, what purpose is the "devil"?

"an escape-outlet for its believers, a strategy, an excuse for failure and unfortunate happenings"
E'en though it saps them their maturity. The average Christian must use the Satan-strategy, else, you may be preaching heresy.

qstar:
Maybe, you'd need a Christian perspective to this. In my current disposition, i may not be good at it.

If indeed Satan is not to blame, then his existence becomes redundant to Christians and somehow, even the existence of the Christian God. For, what purpose is the "devil"?

"an escape-outlet for its believers, a strategy, an excuse for failure and unfortunate happenings"
E'en though it saps them their maturity. The average Christian must use the Satan-strategy, else, you may be preaching heresy.

The purpose of every creature (living and non-living) is first and foremost to do the the bidding of its Creator. From this any other purpose derive its meaning.

Satan did not exist to be God's adversary. That is not the purpose for which he was created. It is very possible to carve out one's path and create a whole new purpose different from that for which a creature was made.

Satan carved out his path and took up a different purpose. This is what many of us do today.

May be you are right that you aint the best person to engage in this conversation but for one who claims to be Agnostic you have some very strong 'Atheistic beliefs'.

striktlymi:

Angels did have that capacity. If they don't, Lucifer wouldn't have been able to revolt.

God has no capacity for sin. He is not governed by the laws of nature.

Ergo, God is incapable of making moral choices. Only humans and angels have that capability.
Your premise is faulty. I'd deal with it if I can find time.

striktlymi:

May be you are right that you aint the best person to engage in this conversation but for one who claims to be Agnostic you have some very strong 'Atheistic beliefs'.

I could accept the idea of a creator, who is all encompassing, and possess the duality found in nature. But the other minion- Satan, hell no. I can't understand why an almighty creator would have adversaries.

Concerning the Satan-irresponsibility-outlet, that is not tenable to me. lailai. You'd rather say "you did it, though you erred".

sonOfLucifer:
Ergo, God is incapable of making moral choices. Only humans and angels have that capability.
Your premise is faulty. I'd deal with it if I can find time.

To judge one's actions in terms of right and wrong would mean for the individual to be subject to some set rules. Humans and Angels are bounded by rules and that's the major reason their actions can be scrutinized in terms of what is right or not.

God is not subject to or bounded by any known rule, hence the capacity for him to do wrong is non-existent. It is not like he has a set of moral codes to abide by but not capable of making any choice. There is no moral code for him to abide by.

If I choose to snuff the life out of another human being deliberately with malicious intent, that would be murder for which I am culpable; but God can choose to take back the life he gave and it won't be counted as murder.

qstar:

I could accept the idea of a creator, who is all encompassing, and possess the duality found in nature. But the other minion- Satan, hell no. I can't understand why an almighty creator would have adversaries.

Concerning the Satan-irresponsibility-outlet, that is not tenable to me. lailai. You'd rather say "you did it, though you erred".

Hmmm...

I think you are closer to Deism than Agnostics.

Having adversaries has little or nothing to do with how powerful one is. You mentioned 'nature'. Take that as an example. Can you say nature, despite its power, doesn't have adversaries? One of nature's greatest adversary is man.

striktlymi:
To judge one's actions in terms of right and wrong would mean for the individual to be subject to some set rules. Humans and Angels are bounded by rules and that's the major reason their actions can be scrutinized in terms of what is right or not.
God is not subject to or bounded by any known rule, hence the capacity for him to do wrong is non-existent. It is not like he has a set of moral codes to abide by but not capable of making any choice. There is no moral code for him to abide by.
If I choose to snuff the life out of another human being deliberately with malicious intent, that would be murder for which I am culpable; but God can choose to take back the life he gave and it won't be counted as murder.

You sound confused, young man. Do you consider God to be amoral, like say a stone?

striktlymi:

Angels did have that capacity. If they don't, Lucifer wouldn't have been able to revolt.

You used "did". Does it mean they don't now?

God has no capacity for sin. He is not governed by the laws of nature.

If god has no capacity for sin, then he also has no capacity for good; ergo, he doesn't have freewill. meaning Yahweh is a robot.
According to you

Evil is a natural consequence of freewill.

If Yahweh has freewill then he's naturally inclined to sin.

We were supposedly made in his image, does it mean we have no capacity for sin, or did Yahweh not add that to the package?

qstar: Striktlymi, i've known you as an intelligent Christian on this forum.

Nice oxymoron.

sonOfLucifer:
You sound confused, young man. Do you consider God to be amoral, like say a stone?

I do hope you know the difference between living and non-living things? May be you would want to bring in 'animals' in this conversation?

Apatheist: You used "did". Does it mean they don't now?


If god has no capacity for sin, then he also has no capacity for good; ergo, he doesn't have freewill. meaning Yahweh is a robot.
According to you If Yahweh has freewill then he's naturally inclined to sin.

We were supposedly made in his image, does it mean we have no capacity for sin, or did Yahweh not add that to the package?

Did was used deliberately. I know of then but not sure how it works now.

The bold is already explained.

striktlymi:

Did was used deliberately. I know of then but not sure how it works now.

Fair enough.

The bold is already explained.

Explain it to me.

striktlymi:

I do hope you know the difference between living and non-living things? May be you would want to bring in 'animals' in this conversation?

I already noted that your premise is faulty. Non-living things are amoral. To be amoral is to have no proclivity to any moral code. To be strict, all morality is viewed from a human angle, as it concerns us.
All I see on this thread is a desperate attempt to absolve the Christian God of any kind of moral responsibility. You claim God can do no wrong, I counter that in the same vein he can do no right. If he's incapable of doing wrong, then he is subject to do right. He MUST do right. And he never had a choice. Therefore, he is amoral. What he does is right.

evil start when man has the knowledge of the law,when God command adam not to eat the fruit,that is were the idea of evil start.paul was teaching in romans 7:9-13. Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin
sprang to life and I died. 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and
through the commandment put me to death. 12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. 13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what
is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment
sin might become utterly sinful.

Verse 9-13> sin taking advantage of the law.
But here is what verse 21 say.....
21 Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me.

Evil start when the law was mention to man, but when satansay "HAS GOD SAID YOU SHULD NOT EAT FROM THE TREE?" HE PUT THE IDEA INTO MAN TO DISOBEY GOD, IF IT NOT SATAN WE WULD'NT HAVE GOT THE IDEA FOR EVIL.

malvisguy212: evil start when man has the knowledge of the law,when God command adam not to eat the fruit,that is were the idea of evil start.paul was teaching in romans 7:9-13. Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin
sprang to life and I died. 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and
through the commandment put me to death. 12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. 13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what
is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment
sin might become utterly sinful.

Verse 9-13> sin taking advantage of the law.
But here is what verse 21 say.....
21 Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me.

Evil start when the law was mention to man, but when satansay "HAS GOD SAID YOU SHULD NOT EAT FROM THE TREE?" HE PUT THE IDEA INTO MAN TO DISOBEY GOD, IF IT NOT SATAN WE WULD'NT HAVE GOT THE IDEA FOR EVIL.

Why did God creat the tree if he wans't evil ?

striktlymi:

I know of then but not sure how it works now.

Hahahaha!

Maybe they are dead. Or their freewill have made them gay and they fled to the other side of Jupiter. Who knows.
Yeye xtians.

striktlymi:

Hmmm...

I think you are closer to Deism than Agnostics.

Actually, i do not mind the label.

Having adversaries has little or nothing to do with how powerful one is. You mentioned 'nature'. Take that as an example. Can you say nature, despite its power, doesn't have adversaries? One of nature's greatest adversary is man.

From my current standpoint, you do not understand how silly the Satan concept is. It's multifarious.

ifeness:

Why did God creat the tree if he wans't evil ?

if i want my son to love me genuely, i will give him option of love and hate, i will not interfer in his decision, i will let him chose,if he chose love,him and me will no that our love for each other is genue.the tree is our option, obey God or disobey God, it is your choice.IF GOD HAD NOT PUT THE TREE IN THERE,OUR LOVE FOR GOD WILL NOT BEEN PUT TO TEST.

WILL YOU ACCEPT OR YOU WILL PASS BY?

malvisguy212: if i want my son to love me genuely, i will give him option of love and hate, i will not interfer in his decision, i will let him chose,if he chose love,him and me will no that our love for each other is genue.the tree is our option, obey God or disobey God, it is your choice.IF GOD HAD NOT PUT THE TREE IN THERE,OUR LOVE FOR GOD WILL NOT BEEN PUT TO TEST.

WILL YOU ACCEPT OR YOU WILL PASS BY?

The bible god seem to me as a corny,emotional ,manipulate individual. Put a time bomb in the garden knowing it will explode sooner or later. My goal is to disobey the bible god. He hates sin,i love sin. He loves having sex with virgins, i prefer when they are disvvirgined.

ifeness:

The bible god seem to me as a corny,emotional ,manipulate individual. Put a time bomb in the garden knowing it will explode sooner or later. My goal is to disobey the bible god. He hates sin,i love sin. He loves having sex with virgins, i prefer when they are disvvirgined.

like i said earlier, it a choice. Thank you for your time.