KunleOshob:

My dear you miss the point again, my faith is not in the bible my faith is in God manifested to us trhough his son Christ Jesus. And his gospel is revealed to me in spirit and written on my heart. I see the bible as a tool which can aid spiritual growth if used correctly. The bible could also be used to perpetuate evil and deceive people if used with the wrong intentions.

Do you see how antithetical your claims are? That is why I asked you initially: is your faith a Biblical one of not? But you have only shown us that you do not have a Biblical faith - which is why we ask questions and still pray for you to discover what you are missing.

I may have missed the point in yours - but you have failed to even convince anyone with your postulations. There is no going round this issue, Kunle; for that was the reason why I intoned that you're inclining towards what is known as syncretism. Now syncretism is a bit confusing for many people, but as used in philosophy and religion, it basically means the joining of two or more seemingly contradictory ideas or beliefs. This is why you may declare that you faith is not in the Bible, and yet you are trying to convince us that you have a Biblical faith.

Friend, you do not have the manifest faith of God's Son if you deny the written Word. My dear sir, believing in Christ goes together with believing the scriptures - let me point out a few:

    ■   John 2:22 - "When therefore he was risen from the dead,
         his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them;
         ^(A)[/b]and they [b]believed the scripture,
         ^(B)[/b]and the [b]word which Jesus had said"

    ■   John 7:38 - "He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said,
         out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water."

If you want to believe in some other way apart from Scripture, that is just okay - we have no quarrels with anything you may find too well suited to your agenda. But like Jesoul said earlier, that would be some "false luxury" which will always wobble anytime you sit on it.

@Pastor AIO,

Pastor AIO:

It's not 'Great' that I don't agree with him. It's just the matter of fact. Why? Well for a start he hasn't really arrived at a conclusion to agree or disagree with. That is why I said Perhaps I don't agree. He has to take a position first before I can agree or disagree.

Which was the reason I asked why? Whatever position you assumed, it was great to note that you did not agree with him. . perhaps, or not, it stil was you did not agree - NO? Which is the same question that hinges there: why would anyone want to "agree" or "disagree" with him?

Pastor AIO:

Just what are these fundamentals of his faith? He has called to question the validity of the bible (as a whole) for basing your faith on. I think it is extremely duplicitous to try to pass the bible off as a single monolithic tome on which christianity is based.

The "duplicity" is not to those who believe the Bible for the Biblical faith - perhaps you may want to address that to the one who makes so much noise about the Biblical faith and at the same time calling for a concensus for it to be doubted. Can you defend that convoluted idea? Indeed, he has called for the questioning of "the validity of the Bible (as a whole)" - and answers have been offered to help him reflect on the basics of that questioning. If he finds it tenious to address that very fundamental question, what then is the substance of his own new found romance?

Pastor AIO:

The Bible consists of various books and letters. No one can doubt that the practice of christianity has changed over the millenia and it continues to change today. The early christians were not bible wielding legalists. There simply was no bible at that time. How can any christian today pass off his position as the veracity of the christian faith more than any other? It seems to irk you that he passes his position off as the veracity of the christian faith. Well, don't you do the same? How do you 'rationally justify such a position'?

I am not irked by anything, AIO. Please refrain from this hubris. If I have any rational justification for what I believe about the Bible, I have consistently outlined them and have continued to do so - unless you deliberately missed it for the fun of it. If I would adhere to the Christian faith and claim that the word of God is written on my heart, therefore I should dispense with the written word in Book format, then I would only be passing off as a hypocrite claiming such things whereas it is from that same Book that I could have got anything claims to make! If he does not want to believe the Bible, who is going to quarrel with that - is he the first, or is there anything new in such a position that no one has found a term to describe it prior to this time?

How does one begin to doubt the very Book that he quotes his adventures on, and yet claim that the words in that same Book are etched on his heart? What kind of gimmick is that?

Pastor AIO:

While I hate to speak for other people, and I'm quite sure that KunleOshob can speak for himself, I seem to recall his pointing out in previous posts that the early christian church was a hell of a lot more charitable in it's activities that the contemporary churches are. There were other practices that are today nonexistent in most churches. The question is . . . can you call it a duck when it goes 'woof' and wags it's tail.

Dear AIO, please understand something here: nobody is denying the historicity of Christian practices and doctrines. There are many denominations and sects today that hold extra-Biblical tenets - good for them; but did you miss the fact that Jesoul already addressed that in very few words? She has stated already that the fact some people misquote and abuse the Scriptures does not affect the Scriptures themselves.

Second, I wonder if this same adventure in this thread is not helping to add to the confusion. For surely it is. If one calls into question the veracity of the Bible, what business does he have in quoting the same Bible in defending his beliefs as "scriptural"?

But By Scripture was Jesus referring to the Bible?

@jesoul
Here i would give two glaring examples of issues in the bible that don't agree with the spirit of christ which should be a pointer to why i decide to take them with a pinch of salt.

In the book of Numbers 15: 32-36 Moses orders a man to be put to death for gathering firewood on the sabbath day but what does christ say about the sabbath in Mark 2:27 : and Jesus concluded. the sabbath was made for the good of man, man was not made for the sabbath the son of man is the lord of the sabbath. Jesus permitted working on the sabbath day and explained the reason behind the sabbath. Clearly Moses carried out the law to the extreme in his own understandng. This is one clear example of bible scripture that does not agree withthe spirit of christ.

Another glaring contrast with the spirit of christ found in the bible is found in 2 Kings 2:23-24:

   23He went up from there to Bethel, and while he was going up on the way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him, saying, "Go up, you baldhead! Go up, you baldhead!" 24And he turned around, and when he saw them, he cursed them in the name of the LORD. And two she-bears came out of the woods and tore forty-two of the boys.

Here Elisha cursed forty two children to be slaughtered by bears in the name of "god" clearly the contrasts with the spirit of our lord jesus christ. This is what Jesus as to say about children in  Matthew 19:14:
14but Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven."

Clearly what is written in the book of 2kings about what elisha did to the children is at variance with the spirit of christ and i would rather not live by or acccept it as scripture meant for me as a christian. There are several more examples but i would limit my self to these for now. It is not enough to accept something as divine just becos it is written in a book passed to us by the catholic church when i clearly contradicts the teachings of our lord jesus christ.

@Kunle,

KunleOshob:

To all my brethen who have been indoctrinated into believing the bible as it is compiled is divine, i asked a few questions earlier none of you as even offered to answe any of these potent questions. On whose authority was the bible compiled, for what purpose and who were those that compiled it. If you guys are aware of the crimes to humanity carried out by the very people who compiled this book and what they used this book for maybe you would have a re-think.

Dear sir, if you claim a fiat to Christianity, on what basis is that fiat? Is it a Biblical one, or absolutely un[/b]biblical?

Already, since you have declared that your faith is not in the Bible, what then are you struggling to seek answers for? You have arrived at a [b]predisposition, so what is the meaning of your seeking answers to the questions you are asking? It seems that none of the answers that would be proffered would make any sense to you - courtesy of your predisposition. At any rate, since the authority of Scripture is your problem, I asked you to dunk the theory and become a bit practical: ask the Holy Spirit directly to confirm with a loud 'YES' that the Bible contains 300,000 errors - have you done that?

Now, let's help you further with your theory. You believe in a soteriology that seeks to both question the veracity and authority of Scripture, not so? And you affirm that on the basis of a "manifestation" of words written on your heart, yes? No worries. Please help us understand one thing: WHY have you been applying so much strain at quoting the same Bible in affirmation of some of the doctrines you argue to buttress what you believe?

Further, if you believe in that same Christ in your "manifestation", have you wondered how He treated the Scriptures? The one thing you have to do first and foremost before you even claim to believe in Him, is to ask yourself directly why Jesus did not treat the Scriptures the way you have been treating it in this thread. I assume that you will find so many instances where Jesus Christ "questioned" the veracity of Scripture. He was bothered with your type of soteriology, wasn't He? He was also excuse His non-belief in Scripture on the basis of how many people have abused it to harm humanity, not so? Did He not also teach His disciples (consequently apostles) to question the veracity and authority of Scripture as well? Why then did He bother to quote the Old Testament in many instances without questioning their veracity?

These are basic observations that so many of us are asking you to take care of, if there's any basis to your predisposition. You want answers? So do we. We want to know if your "jesus" is actually the one who dispenses with Scripture and claims a "manifestation" of written words on the heart - or rather, he is that same Jesus who affirmed the veracity of Scripture with a resounding word that, "Scripture cannot be broken". Which of the "christs" are you claiming now? You want answers? So do we.

KunleOshob:

Today most of you view the catholic church with suspision for various reasons, yet you you can vouch 100% for the book they passed on to you even though Martin luther editted it. On whose authoritydid martin luther edit the bible and if the bible was divine why did it need to be editted?

We note well that several people within and outside the Church have tried (and are still trying) to "edit" the Bible. Should that faze you as a believer? Should I give you a list of recent work that is being done to reduce the Bible to just 5 books instead of 66? Their theory is that the number "5" represents creation, and "6" represents evil and depression and imperfection! Thus, those men who have canonized the Bible into "66" books were doing an "imperfect work", so that through history, people who have been adhering to the Biblical faith, have been struggling with "imperfection" and that is why there is so much misery!

The theory is catching on as wild fire! But while I am not fazed by that at all, my questions are: (a) upon whose authority are they doing that? [they claim to be doing so by a "manifestation" of God's "inner workings" in their hearts]; then (b) what books are they going to "blank out" and which would remain?

Dear Kunle, I don't wat to scare my brethren - but I have been researching the current issues in prophetic events in the world. That was one thing that drove me to open the thread "Orphic World"; but I changed my my mind and instead posted the "orphic" phenomena of supernatural occurences.

Back to the question - Martin Luther's editing does not take away from the fact that Jesus was often quoting from the "Scriptures". How would I be able to recognize that what I read are from God? A confirmation of the Holy Spirit brings the RHEMA to my heart. Do I have all the answers? Absolutely NOT. But do I follow Jesus by questioning the vearcity of Scripture? I doubt it so. If He used Scripture effectively, I would be a queer Christian to begin to question the same "Jesus" who used Scripture.

For some, this discipleship is why the "errors" are far more than 300,000 . . . so many today claim about 556,666 "errors". How? I don't know, but they said they wrote a software that could immediately detect those "errors" and then either blank them out bu colour codes (showing what was supposed not to be there) or by bold long lines (shoing that the texts have been tampered with), or by coded hieroglyphs (showing a deeper revelation that the "Catholic Church" tampered with)!

Now why 556,666? They said that if you calculate and reduce the sum of those numbers, you come up with a single number of perfection:

       5 + 5 + 6  = 10  +  6  = 16 = 1 + 6 = 7

       6  + 6 + 6 = 18  = 1 + 8 =  9

        so. . . 9 + 7 = 16  = 1 +  6  =  7

They postulate that anything in each of the Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic scripts of the Bible that does not add up to the code "7" is detected as "error", and the software is supposed to show the type of "error". Of course, they blame all these "errors" on the Catholic Church.

Dear Kunle, you want a syncretism? Please research more. . . you will find these things. These groups are hard to detect on the net - but I could send you some citations to check in some libraries. Why are they so elusive to detect on the net? I don't know. . . but the theory is that they want to be able to complete their research before they publish it in rapid billion of copies! It is a syncretism of ALL religious, agnostic, skeptic, oriental, new age, and atheistic philosophies! If you think these guys are joking, please understand they don't need anybody's money as donations for theior work! They HAVE the world's money and can do anything at any time!

KunleOshob:

PS: I am not out to discourage any christian but to try and assist us to understand our faith better and basis of it.

Good. If we are to understand our faith better, we ought to begin by examining what the Scriptures teach. The reason why I did not want to post those issues above, is because a lot of people will become so scared of their faith when they read them. Of course, people may call me names - such name-calling has nevr fazed me. But, even if I never mentioned them, it does not mean that these groups will not have been doing what they are about! What will you do when they release their billions of copies all at once around the world, Kunle?

@Pilgrim.1
I pray that you have understanding of the issues i am trying to raise and digest them. This is not about arguement or insulting any body's convictions, i have been were you are before and now the truth is clear to me. my christian faith isnot in question the issue is that you failed to understand me cause of the deep sitted indoctrination that as occured in the church over the centuries which would be very difficult to counter.
My observation is that you fail to see the difference between the scripture being refered to in the bible and the bible itsef that was compiled over two hundred and fifty years after the last book in it was written. you aslo fail to see the difference between the bible as it is today and christian faith, whilst conviniently forgetting that the early christians for three centuries never used it in the format in which we use it today.

KunleOshob:

Clearly what is written in the book of 2kings about what elisha did to the children is at variance with the spirit of christ and i would rather not live by or acccept it as scripture meant for me as a christian. There are several more examples but i would limit my self to these for now. It is not enough to accept something as divine just because it is written in a book passed to us by the catholic church when i clearly contradicts the teachings of our lord jesus christ.

At variance, ba? No worries - wait and you will find out if the JUDGEMENTS which Christ spoke about are at variance with "the Spirit of Christ".

@Kunle,

KunleOshob:

@Pilgrim.1
I pray that you have understanding of the issues i am trying to raise and digest them. This is not about arguement or insulting any body's convictions, i have been were you are before and now the truth is clear to me. my christian faith isnot in question the issue is that you failed to understand me cause of the deep sitted indoctrination that as occured in the church over the centuries which would be very difficult to counter.

Please refrain from the victim cry - nobody's been insulting anybody on this thread. You raised predispositions with a fiat to the Christin faith, and we are asking questions as much as you deem to be seeking answers as well. You haven't been where I have been, because you would then have understood where you are driving yourself to. See the hint I gave above about 556,666.

KunleOshob:

My observation is that you fail to see the difference between the scripture being refered to in the bible and the bible itsef that was compiled over two hundred and fifty years after the last book in it was written. you aslo fail to see the difference between the bible as it is today and christian faith, whilst conviniently forgetting that the early christians for three centuries never used it in the format in which we use it today.

Your problem here has been to question the Bible itself - not parts of it. That is where you are deliberately failing in your fiat, my dear. You have just cited from Numbers and 2 Kings - and the problem is not about the format; for today there is a plethora of formats of the Bible as it is today, and in various media. Some Bibles do not list Genesis as the first book in the Bible, they rather list JOB because they believe that it was written before Genesis. Besides that, there are annotations in some of those Bibles where they "question" the veracity of those texts. In all these, I have often asked myself if they demonstrate the true Spirit of Jesus Christ Himself. We are warned that living in the last days will expose us to some of these syncretistic phenomena and even more. I believe we haven't even seen half of the things that will happen in the last days in reference to people falling away from the faith (Luke 8:13 and 2 Thes. 2:3).

As per the errors detected in king james version, they are actually translation errors. Any bible scholar would tell you that king james was a word for word translation of the original hebrew and greek texts. Any student of linguistics would tell you that you can not capture the real meaning of a text in a word for word translation between languages cause exact words for each occurence may not mean the same thing in various languages. As such closely related words that might not accurately depict what is being said are used and even when the words are exact the scope of the definition or meaning it carries may vary from language to language. It was because of these detected errors that the new King's James version was written for a more accurate translation. also several other versions of the bible have been written becos of these perceived errors.

pilgrim.1:

@Kunle,

Your problem here has been to question the Bible itself - not parts of it. That is where you are deliberately failing in your fiat, my dear. You have just cited from Numbers and 2 Kings - and the problem is not about the format; for today there is a plethora of formats of the Bible as it is today, and in various media. Some Bibles do not list Genesis as the first book in the Bible, they rather list JOB because they believe that it was written before Genesis. Besides that, there are annotations in some of those Bibles where they "question" the veracity of those texts. In all these, I have often asked myself if they demonstrate the true Spirit of Jesus Christ Himself. We are warned that living in the last days will expose us to some of these syncretistic phenomena and even more. I believe we haven't even seen half of the things that will happen in the last days in reference to people falling away from the faith (Luke 8:13 and 2 Thes. 2:3).

Now i see the point, you are definitely off course here my dear,  what i am questioning is parts of the bible not all of it. if you go back and read my previous posts you would verify i stated clearly i beleive what agrees with the spirit of Christ in the bible and take what doesn't with a pinch of salt. And that is why i gave the example of the sabbath and the forty two children to demonstrate what i meant. And please refrain from describing me as a syncretic cause that is totally at variance with where i stand on my absolute belief in the Christian faith. It is very clear to me you have not bothered to understand my position before drawing conclusions. Today i know and understand my faith better and i don't need to explain or convince any body about my convictions.

Okay, okay. . . please for those who have been inundating my YIM about the 556,666, let me say why I'm not responding on YIM. First, I cannot be answering to more than 13 different YIMs all at once. But for those who are asking me to share more and the name of the group, I shall do so only in terms of how much I was able to harvest from thier brochures.

1. Who are these people?

I don't know - I am not involved in that work. I only read them when I registered to research some work I was doing in the University of Manchester. I have tried to search if this was some sort of "joke", but when an organization with a helix (and no specific name yet) is claiming to sit on the world's money and economy, one has to pay attention; especially because in their brochure they spoke about the "big September of 2008" that will make a lot of families commit suicide from financial losses and fear - this was way back in 200[b]5[/b], and I read it in 200[b]6[/b] Oct.

2. The reason for the 556,666.

Again, I don't know the reason - I am not affiliated to them in any way. if anything at all, my faith is in Christ as revealed in Scripture, and not in a software. However, what I can remember from the notes I penned down at that time were these:

   In the number 55[/b]6, 666, the first two digits are emphatic.
   first "5" is taken from the end of the first creation
   next "5" points to an emphatic "yes" about creation, calling on
   naturalists never to doubt the "fact" of creation.

   then comes the first [b]6 in 55[b]6[/b] - it was to usher man into the scene
   but it is only one "6" in the first traid (5-5-6). What they mean by this is that
   the "Hebrew" text pointed that man is not "perfect" and needed "something"

   it was that "something" which they were seeking in building the tower of 'Babel'
   consequently, the "Light" and "Code" infused multiple languages into humanity
   but it is not only in humanity that such a language is to be found -
   the UFOs have been sending us messages and we have continued to reject them
   consequently, this rejection has brought in the "666" of the next triad (6-6-6)

   in the first triad, creation and man are complete (hence the sum is "7"
   but "7" is not "perfect" on its own, and must need a "zero" inbetween -
   because the basic of all software writing uses binary digits (0 and 1) to form codes
   "7" is not indented into the triads (556 or 666) because the Light and Code
   are waiting for us to heed the code that would come from the deep space of our world
   
   therefore, there is what is known today as "dark matter" -
   and this matter has 3 features:
   ■  it is composed of 1 and 9 (10% is visible, 90% is invisible but "real"
   ■  it is invisble and does not absorb light in our known spectrum
   ■  yet, its reality cannot be denied, it is only presently "unknown"

   hence, the second triad brings in the "9" (sum of 666)
   but 666 must come in and is the name of the "3" man
   the "first" man is not Adam, but was within the second "5" of the first triad (5-5-6)
   the second Man (Jesus) is not in any triad (556 or 666)
   because His number is 888
   the software does not spot His name in any holy writing
   because his name is "mysterious"
   and "mysterious" is not a known phenomena in any language

  blah-blah-blah

  Dark matter, Light and Code are here and now
  their contact will bring man in utter confusion and misery
  non-belief will be forced into belief
  belief in any religion will be forced to be re-arranged
  and they all must conform to the HELIX
  if anything does not conform to the HELIX
  it will confuse and destroy man

  thus, all religions must take from the Bible
  it does not matter what religion there is -
  they must all come under HELIX
  but HELIX is not a religion or orgnaziation
  to achieve this, the Bible has to be understood
  in the software code to see where the LIGHT and CODE point to
  surprisingly, DARK MATTER has been there all the time
  but science is only now affirming its reality
  it cannot be seen, but it is real

  blah - blah - blah

  hence, the two triads are pointing to this present things
  a third triad is coming - it is "mysterious"
  we don't know what it is, when it is, where it will first come to
  but it will first dissolve the Bible to just 5 books
  then there will be only 556,666 "useful errors"
  which will culminate in the rise of the "anti-mystery"
 

  the anti-mystery has been "mislabelled" as the "man of sin"
  he or it is only anti-mystery because he is necessary to complete "EVE"
  he is not "evil", and the software is always showing that it is "EVE"
  he or it is "revealed" as an anti-mystery because:
  ■  his time is short
  ■  he has a "wilderness" (see Num. 33:11)
  ■  he is the "strength of Egypt" (see Ezek. 30:15)
  ■  he also has a "helper" who is labelled "NO" (Ezek. 30:15)

  therefore, NO and SIN are simply anti-mystery which man uses daily
  they are "useful errors" and will round up 556,666 to 7!
  porn is anti-mystery
  death is anti-mystery
  EVE (not "evil" is anti-mystery
  DARK MATTER has no name and is anti-mystery
  LIE is anti-mystery
  TRUTH is mystery (nobody knows "truth"
  "what is truth" (John 18:38)

  blah-blah-blah

  WATCH OUT for SUPER SEPTEMBER 1
  "1" is the glyph of 2008
  ie., 2 + 0 + 0 +8 = 10
  and 10 = 1 + 0 = 1
  Sepetember is the 9th month
  9 + 1 = 10 = 1 + 0 = 1
  The economies of the world will seek a single market

 The HELIX will be told to print a single currency
 towards that time, a HELIX-man will rise
 his name is the sum of the second traid (6-6-6)
 the internet will switch from IPS to 666
 telephones will switch as well
 man will talk to the HELIX-man
 he will be the "strength of Egypt"

 those who believe in JERUSALEM will DIE
 EGYPT will receive God's POWER
 (Ezek. 30:15 - "And I will pour my fury upon Sin, the strength of Egypt"
 the HELIX-man will be worshipped
 for the strength of his FURY
 HELIX will then receive his/its name
 and billions of copies will be distributed free around the world

 there must be 556,666 "useful errors" to complete man and creation
 the 556,666 useful errors cannot be found in any book
 it must be from the Bible
 it will first have a triad digit (3) then followed by a burning (0)
 then will be a man who will see the "lock" = 300,000 "useful errors"
 many advanced minds will follow the "lock"
 they need to "burn the Biblios" (not BIBLE) to zero
 they do not need to stop being "CHRISTO[/b]ses" (ie., Christians)

 then will be a manifestation of all SIN
 the man of SIN will begin to gain FURY
 his brother NO will be the household name
 children will REB-el
 REB = gay
 EL = strength
 thus they will [b]rebel
 they will seek NO and FURY
 and then governments will establish and propomote
 - assisted suicides
 - incorporated porn
 - parliamentarian lies
 - "assasinatory" elections
 - new ways of "EVE" - all types of SIN
 - HELIX-man will be furious against anyone trying to stop this!
 for his strength is from the LIGHT and CODE
 he is everywhere, 90% and is real!!
 scientists will make a great mistake to code him/it
 right now, they know he is there, but don't know what he is or his name!


Blah-blah-blah!!


Now, where did I see all these? I have search on the net endlessly and no fruit. I don't know if anyone has seen this HELIX thing - but it spoke about 300,000 errors of the Bible, and then about super sSeptermber 1, and then 556,666 "useful errors", and that "blasphemies" are the nature of DARK MATTER! It also says that anyone who wants to follow "mysterious" (888) will DIE before their time!

if you're wondering why I blanked in the YIM and not responding, here are a bit of the things I read. have to go now.

Kunle,

Please go and study your heart. You really don't have a clue about these issues, and even if one has to take you up on simple matters in the Bible, you still don't even know the ABCs of that Book. If you are seeking to protect your predispositions, no worries: but you haven't seen anything yet until stuff begin to happen to you!

This group promotes everything and perhaps. . . just perhaps. . . the one thing by which one may identify them is the sign of the HELIX. One thing is for sure: I don't know how long they have been doing their work, but I find some of the things they postulate to be intriguing indeed:

Super September "1"
Government "promotion" of porn
assisted suicide (which is now gaining grounds more and more)

The edition I browsed through was dated "helix-helix-7", which was "2005". I just laughed back then, but today I'm no longer laughing! As people scrabbled for the economic crash in Sepetember, I fished out that brochure and read it again to see what they were saying. It is a series in a box case of 6 pamphlets - glossy and attractive, and given free the very day I visited that library in University of Manchester. the guy who was giving it out free was a tall, smiley guy - people stood around asking questions but he was heard saying that he was not calling people to religion.

Now, I do not claim that the following is actually drawing from the HELIX-man thingy. But this is one of the closest I've seen that alludes to the same thing that we read in that brochure I've been talking about:

"The point I am trying to make here is that Melchizedek never lived as a person.
The word Melchizedek is symbolic word which represents dark matter
which in turn makes up 90% of the universe"

source: http://www.hiddenmeanings.com/Reflection.html

There are others which postulate by the same thing that neither "God" or Jesus or even David were historic or real beings - they say that these are DARK MATTER allegories!

Now people, please understand that just because I posted a fraction of the HELIX-man thingy does not mean that I believe in them. I find them intriguing at best, but that is not where my faith is, nor do I ascent to them to buttress my faith.

Another point, those who assume that I posted these things to allege anything against anybody should understand that I did not do so. Nor did I presuppose that is where Kunle was tending - not at all. The point is that the very things I'm seeing in this thread about 300,000 "errors" were mentioned in that brochure and the many things they said were going to happen and are happening, blah-blah, and then soon we shall be (or may be) hearing about the 'HELIX-man' or "GLYPH" or 556,666 "useful errors" should not come as surprise to anybody.

The way these people interprete Ezekiel 30:15 - "And I will pour my fury upon Sin, the strength of Egypt; and I will cut off the multitude of No". . . folks, I don't know how they came about the idea from that verse that the "anti-mystery" is the man of SIN who is the "strength of Egypt" and whose brother is a household name or word: NO. Also, I would have liked to say as someone said sometime ago - "there's nothing to it. .  just some excited pinche". But hey, the promotion of porn is a reality today (whether before or after that publication, I don't know). That someone would find a LIE to be a "useful error" is beyond me; but ask them about TRUTH, they say it has no name because it/he or whatever is 888 - mysterious ("Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret?" - Judges 13:18).

When they said "burn the BIBLIOS" (not "Bible", they put a footnote there that the Greek word is not "Bible" but "BIBLIOS", because it is made up of "books"; and the "burning" is not to be taken literally, but an affirmation of what is inevitable - that it would be questioned and "reduced" to just 5.

Me, I apologise upfront to anyone who might be disturbed about these things; but please be careful - these things have been forewarned in the Bible. Be careful that that you don't allow your faith as a believer to fall victim of the HELIX-GLYPH.

pilgrim.1:

Kunle,

Please go and study your heart. You really don't have a clue about these issues, and even if one has to take you up on simple matters in the Bible, you still don't even know the ABCs of that Book. If you are seeking to protect your predispositions, no worries: but you haven't seen anything yet until stuff begin to happen to you!

I would rather you address the various issues i raised instead of this intellectual/knowledge high ground position you are assuming.

KunleOshob:

I would rather you address the various issues i raised instead of this intellectual/knowledge high ground position you are assuming.

There's nothing "high ground" in what I submitted. And as regards your various issues, I think it is fair to say that I addressed them and also left you a few queries - which you did not address.

Shall I remind you?

1. https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-191998.32.html#msg3050808
"You raised predispositions with a fiat to the Christin faith, and we are asking questions
as much as you deem to be seeking answers as well."

2. Yours: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-191998.32.html#msg3050634
"Clearly what is written in the book of 2kings about what elisha did to the children
is at variance with the spirit of christ and i would rather not live by or acccept it
as scripture meant for me as a christian."

If (2) is your worries, my comment followed thereto - https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-191998.32.html#msg3050766

Is there anything beyond that same issue?

@Pilgrim.1
I have checked out your references and NONE of them attempts to address any of the issues or questions i raised. your responses can at best be described as running round in circles which i can now safely assume is typicalof you.

KunleOshob:

@Pilgrim.1
I have checked out your references and NONE of them attempts to address any of the issues or questions i raised. your responses can at best be described as running round in circles which i can now safely assume is typicalof you.

@KunleOshob, I asked a simple question after pointing to those links: "Is there anything beyond that same issue?" You always cry the victim's song of people insulting you, but are very much at home to use such slobbers when you don't ever want to discuss. If there were issues, the sane and simple thing to do was point them out and request answers - not demand them and then cry the victim's song again. Thanks for the "typical" assumption, though.

Now this is actually a really cool topic , at least one raised by a christian( if others still agree he is).

Kunle has a very big point, and he allowed himself to be drawn away from the real issue at hand, which is that

The hand and influence of man is heavily manifest in the bible even if you choose to deny it.

I think the above really sums this up, the bible was compiled, these books or letters or epistles were not written with the intention of being compiled into one book. Most Christians do not realize that there was a lot of controversy surrounding how the bible was compiled some three hundred and twenty five years after Christ.

I would try to buttress what kunle is trying to say with a very good example the first council of nicea. I do not even know how to start putting that down here because everything seemed dodgy at best, what was evident though was the confusion . There is just no way these books could have been written and compiled without serious human influence on them, no way. Today Christians find out that some men of God are bad, are you saying that all the people who wrote books about God and Jesus were allowed in the bible, if so why are theirs thrown away?

The whole think sha smells of a group of men seeking ways to psychologically bind people and rule them, just imagine GOD of all people giving man instructions on how to treat slaves!
Na wa for una sha.

@Chris,

Chrisbenogor:

Now this is actually a really cool topic , at least one raised by a christian( if others still agree he is).

Kunle has a very big point, and he allowed himself to be drawn away from the real issue at hand, which is that

The hand and influence of man is heavily manifest in the bible even if you choose to deny it.

I think the above really sums this up, the bible was compiled, these books or letters or epistles were not written with the intention of being compiled into one book. Most Christians do not realize that there was a lot of controversy surrounding how the bible was compiled some three hundred and twenty five years after Christ.

Dear Chrisgenobor, let us take that same highlighter within your quote as the main gist of the concerns raised in this thread - barring every other, yes? Now what have we been looking at?

I don't think anyone has argued against these two facts:

    * the Bible was written by the hand of man

    * man was also involved in its canonization

Has anyone been arguing against those two? The thing is not so much to even argue against them, but what implications those two issues point to. If those who question the veracity of the Bible have any substance to their own argument, which text in the Bible was not written by the hand of man? And which of the books was not compiled to be included in the canon by the hand of man as well?

See, we don't think there's any substance to that highlight, because we have addressed that as a non-issue. But even if someone would want to make an issue of it, then we have asked: does the OP have a Biblical faith or not? And he has told us plainly that his faith is NOT in the Bible. We thank him for that open confession - is there anything there again to argue? The point here from that very confession is not whether or not the OP accents to or consents to some of the Biblical texts - the huge question is: which one? If others are suspect, which ones then are not suspect by the same rule? And if all or none are suspect, then again, where is the rational for his defence of a fiat he holds in the Christian faith? Here, it is not a "yes and no" adventure - for the same rule he applies in one should apply to all. WHERE does he stand? The answer has been given already - which makes the highlighted quote within yours to be unnecessary.

Chrisbenogor:

The whole think sha smells of a group of men seeking ways to psychologically bind people and rule them, [b]just imagine GOD of all people giving man instructions on how to treat slaves![/b]Na wa for una sha.

This what i have been trying to point out to my christian bethren, these are clear examples of what we find in the bible that those not agree with the spirit of God, but my brethren choose to turn a blind eye to it just because a group of men included it in the canon passed down to us as scripture in the 4th century. The passage chrisbenogor is refering to is this:

Exodus 21

   “These are the regulations you must present to Israel.

  2 “If you buy a Hebrew slave, he may serve for no more than six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. 3 If he was single when he became your slave, he shall leave single. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife must be freed with him.

  4 “If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave and they had sons or daughters, then only the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. 5 But the slave may declare, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children. I don’t want to go free.’ 6 If he does this, his master must present him before God.[a] Then his master must take him to the door or doorpost and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will serve his master for life.

  7 “When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. 8 If she does not satisfy her owner, he must allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. 9 But if the slave’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave but as a daughter.

  10 “If a man who has married a slave wife takes another wife for himself, he must not neglect the rights of the first wife to food, clothing, and sexual intimacy. 11 If he fails in any of these three obligations, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.





Does this sound like the word of God to you? Or does it sound like what Jesus christ who is one with the father would instruct? You be the judge.

This thread gives the perfect example of why I no longer use the term christian for myself.

I just want to give Kunle some encouragement from where I am sitting.  No one can tell you what is in your heart.  This is your own personal journey.  Don't be bullied by their doctrines and aggressive orthodoxology.

pilgrim.1:

Kunle,

Please go and study your heart. You really don't have a clue about these issues, and even if one has to take you up on simple matters in the Bible, you still don't even know the ABCs of that Book. If you are seeking to protect your predispositions, no worries: but you haven't seen anything yet until stuff begin to happen to you!

KunleOshob:

Those this sound likethe word of God to you? Or does it sound like what Jesus christ who is one with the father would instruct? You be the judge.

We are not turning a blind eye to any passage of the Bible - and I for one would answer with a strong YES, that passage is the Word of God to me. A lot of people today are looking for some esoteric form of "god" whom they have made in their image and then sit uncomfy when they read such passages or about the wars in the Bible. I know - human nature is today to complacent to stand in the face of such issues, and while fingers are being pointed at the same God, none of you stops for a moment and wonder about the brutality of man in crucifying the very Son of God on the Cross. WHY is that a part of the Bible you would like to believe in while worrying yourself to death over the parts on slavery?

Please tell us, Kunle, which book in the NT do you reject?

Pastor AIO:

This thread gives the perfect example of why I no longer use the term christian for myself.

I just want to give Kunle some encouragement from where I am sitting. No one can tell you what is in your heart. This is your own personal journey. Don't be bullied by their doctrines and aggressive orthodoxology.

I have not defined for him what was in his own heart - my asking him to go and study his own heart for himself should not be misconstrued as "bullying" him or anyone. Things have been said to many people - which Kunle himself has been happy to use without qualms - did that make them stop using the term "Christian" for themselves?

Pastor AIO:

This thread gives the perfect example of why I no longer use the term christian for myself.

I just want to give Kunle some encouragement from where I am sitting. No one can tell you what is in your heart. This is your own personal journey. Don't be bullied by their doctrines and aggressive orthodoxology.

Thanx for this words of encouragement.

Aunty pilgrim, my style is quite simple because I believe the best way to confuse someone is to throw in so many things that do not matter into , in this instance his christian faith.

I might not have the right words but I will put it as simply as possible so that any and everyone can understand and to best reduce anyone reading another meaning to what I have said. What I see kunle is trying to say is that there is no way you can say when it came to the bible man was suddenly perfect, even the so called great men of God these days differ on certain sections in the bible, I think it is suspect of you Christians to suddenly believe that mans inspiration to write books made him perfect.

What do you know about the lives of these people who wrote these things down? I doubt if it there was proof that paul for instance had affairs with women or men for that matter that everyone would take what he wrote down as the undiluted word of God.

No amount of justification pilgrim would make those mass murders in the old testament good, nothing whatsoever. Men killed Jesus Christ, yes they did or is that not why Jesus came, did he come to live forever no, does it make killing anyone right? NOT AT ALL. You see when men indulge in these dastardly acts we say they are EVIL and I will condemn anyone that kills innocent women and children and also holds anyone captive.
But wait God also killed people without good reason does it make him EVIL, yes it does.
Did a loving God order those killings or Moses did?

Pilgrim, justify the killing of those people in the old testament.

pilgrim.1:

Please tell us, Kunle, which book in the NT do you reject?

I do not reject any book in the new testament neither do i reject any book in particular in th old testament. They all contain truths( especially the new testament) how ever within some of those books, the words, opinions and the biases of men have found there way in to them.

Chrisbenogor:

No amount of justification pilgrim would make those mass murders in the old testament good, nothing whatsoever.

  Chris you asked a similar question on the other thread and I'll give you the same answer here:

A lotta people have a hard time reconciling a loving, caring, righteous God with some of the events recorded in the OT . . . what we forget is that God is as much loving as He is fearful, as much caring as He is consuming fire, as much as God is to be worshipped, He is to be equally feared, We only get the fairy-tale description of God in most churches & in the world, they fail to teach that God disperses immense love but God also unleashes intense wrath. And we see this love and wrath all through the OT.

  So maybe the problem is with our preconceived definition of who God is and His characteristics? instead of starting at ground zero in the bible and building our understanding of God from there, the problem is we've made up in our minds a 'moral, loving' box and then tried and failed to fit God into it. God is far beyond the grasp of our human intellect, which is why we need His spirit to indwell us and reveal to our spirit who God is & why certain things He permitted seem so crazy & immoral to us.


  Pilgrim could not have said this better:

pilgrim.1:

A lot of people today are looking for some esoteric form of "god" whom they have made in their image and then sit uncomfy when they read such passages or about the wars in the Bible. I know - human nature is today to complacent to stand in the face of such issues, and while fingers are being pointed at the same God, none of you stops for a moment and wonder about the brutality of man in crucifying the very Son of God on the Cross. WHY is that a part of the Bible you would like to believe in while worrying yourself to death over the parts on slavery?

My dear you miss the point again, my faith is not in the bible my faith is in God manifested to us trhough his son Christ Jesus. And his gospel is revealed to me in spirit and written on my heart. I see the bible as a tool which can aid spiritual growth if used correctly. The bible could also be used to perpetuate evil and deceive people if used with the wrong intentions.

wow what can be said after reading this? Not much at all.   

Kunle the problem is not that God is "misrepresented" in some "evil" events in the bible.
the problem is your flawed definition of God that only includes love and peace as His attributes. Pls read my reply to Chris.

@Chrisbenogor,

Chrisbenogor:

Aunty pilgrim, my style is quite simple because I believe the best way to confuse someone is to throw in so many things that do not matter into , in this instance his christian faith.

If that is a way of saying that I was throwing anything into his faith to confuse him, thank you. I wasn't doing that - thus my simple questions offered him. The questions I offered him was so he could let us know where he stood in the fiat he claims. If he does not have a Biblical faith, we do not argue or quarrel that with him: it is his own faith, and I have not sought to define it for him.

Chrisbenogor:

I might not have the right words but I will put it as simply as possible so that any and everyone can understand and to best reduce anyone reading another meaning to what I have said. What I see kunle is trying to say is that there is no way you can say when it came to the bible man was suddenly perfect, even the so called great men of God these days differ on certain sections in the bible, I think it is suspect of you Christians to suddenly believe that mans inspiration to write books made him perfect.

I really don't see how you could afford to dribble this idea in here. Perhaps you have come across so many "Christians" who make such claims - I do not; nor do I see its relevance here. That is why the Scriptures are there and open to show the honesty of such men who did not seek to hide their imperfections. What I observe has been happening some times is that people make appeal to so many irrelevant issues and use them as a fausse patte to argue what we have not been arguing - as in this thread.

Chrisbenogor:

What do you know about the lives of these people who wrote these things down? I doubt if it there was proof that paul for instance had affairs with women or men for that matter that everyone would take what he wrote down as the undiluted word of God.

And that was supposed to mean. . .?

Chrisbenogor:

No amount of justification pilgrim would make those mass murders in the old testament good, nothing whatsoever. Men killed Jesus Christ, yes they did or is that not why Jesus came, did he come to live forever no, does it make killing anyone right? NOT AT ALL. You see when men indulge in these dastardly acts we say they are EVIL and I will condemn anyone that kills innocent women and children and also holds anyone captive.

Chris, we have been through this before - yes or no? And what was my answer to this assumption? Did I seek to "justify" anything? If I did not because you would never listen, why bring it here again? The one thing that is a put off is this type of attitude where some people drag issues and use them in other threads to misrepresent my position - I take objections to that attitude: and that is why I sometimes just fold myself away from people who are not really reading but just using the same thing over and over again as if that is the new thing since slice bread.

Chrisbenogor:

But wait God also killed people without good reason does it make him EVIL, yes it does.
Did a loving God order those killings or Moses did?

Yes, "God killed" - I know that. Thank you. But does that reduce my faith in HIM? No.

Chrisbenogor:

Pilgrim, justify the killing of those people in the old testament.

Lol, Chris grow up. I already answered that question before and I will answer the same way: I do not justfy anything. Does that therefore make me call God "evil"? No.

@Jesoul,

JeSoul:

Chris you asked a similar question on the other thread and I'll give you the same answer here:

Oh well. . . he has asked me that question before and I gave him my answer. I wonder why people just like to re-harsh the same thing over and over again.

JeSoul:

My dear you miss the point again, my faith is not in the bible my faith is in God manifested to us trhough his son Christ Jesus. And his gospel is revealed to me in spirit and written on my heart. I see the bible as a tool which can aid spiritual growth if used correctly. The bible could also be used to perpetuate evil and deceive people if used with the wrong intentions.

wow what can be said after reading this? Not much at all.

Lol, wetin I wan talk again? His faith no dey for Bible, but still e no reject any book of the bible. I hear. See what I said earlier about syncretism? They will never tell you that the reject the Bible - but wait a lil and hear them out a bit more, and all things become clear.