Pr0ton:
^^^^^^^^^
LordReed...


There is still no answer in your post.



Of what use is this answer to my objection please?

And your second assertion shows that you and Jesus don't understand yourself. Even, some new translation, like the RSV, omitted the "son of man who is in heaven". If we are to follow those new translation then we can infer that Jesus was just making an analogy in verse 14, and also gives more fault to Jesus's allegation about who has ever ascended up to heaven.

If you are not even going to critically look at the preceding verse but going to focus on what you believe to be you catching Jesus in a lie then it is obvious you are not looking for a conversation but an approval. I have made it abundantly clear that you need to consider the context but to you that is too hard, too confusing.

LordReed:


If you are not even going to critically look at the preceding verse but going to focus on what you believe to be you catching Jesus in a lie then it is obvious you are not looking for a conversation but an approval. I have made it abundantly clear that you need to consider the context but to you that is too hard, too confusing.

Considering the context doesn't make any difference bro

Pr0ton:


Considering the context doesn't make any difference bro

It makes a whole lot of difference man.

Consider Verse 11 Jesus is talking about testifying and witnessing. You don't testify or witness to what you neither saw nor experienced. This sets up the context for the following verses. Using that to understand what He is saying you will see that He is telling Nicodemus that in other to testify of heavenly things you must have seen or experienced them. Continuing He tells Nicodemus the words which you contest. If Jesus is talking about witnessing then He must be referring to witnesses. Are there any that have gone to heaven and come back? Obviously not but He the Son of man has been in heaven. Picking verse 13 out of context is like picking this "No man has been bitten by snake" when the full sentence is "No man has been bitten by snake, will tell you to experience it". The first part is going to look like a lie obviously without the explanation of the second.

Giitheon:
.its a choice,wada or nt to choose eternal life...bt God said'i will dat u choose eternal life'.....its a simple tin...GOD's plans 4 eternal life.

God didn't say anything. Did he say this to you?

LordReed:


It makes a whole lot of difference man.

Consider Verse 11 Jesus is talking about testifying and witnessing. You don't testify or witness to what you neither saw nor experienced. This sets up the context for the following verses. Using that to understand what He is saying you will see that He is telling Nicodemus that in other to testify of heavenly things you must have seen or experienced them. Continuing He tells Nicodemus the words which you contest. If Jesus is talking about witnessing then He must be referring to witnesses. Are there any that have gone to heaven and come back? Obviously not but He the Son of man has been in heaven. Picking verse 13 out of context is like picking this "No man has been bitten by snake" when the full sentence is "No man has been bitten by snake, will tell you to experience it". The first part is going to look like a lie obviously without the explanation of the second.

What justification does your explanation give John3:13a

Pr0ton:


What justification does your explanation give John3:13a

Taken out of context John 3:13a sounds like a contradiction but juxtaposed with the surrounding text you get a clearer picture. Elijah went to heaven but did he come back to testify or witness? This is what Jesus is saying, I am a reliable witness because I have been there and now I am here, you can believe me.

LordReed:


Taken out of context John 3:13a sounds like a contradiction but juxtaposed with the surrounding text you get a clearer picture. Elijah went to heaven but did he come back to testify or witness? This is what Jesus is saying, I am a reliable witness because I have been there and now I am here, you can believe me.

This would be distortion free if the verse reads:

" And no man has ascended up to heaven and then returned to testify of these things"

Besides, where did Jesus ascend up to heaven and come back to analyse things to Nicodemus?

Pr0ton:


This would be distortion free if the verse reads:

" And no man has ascended up to heaven and then returned to testify of these things"

Besides, where did Jesus ascend up to heaven and come back to analyse things to Nicodemus?

Now it is obvious you really are reading out of context. John 3:13 you have been quoting reads:

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he
that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

He was in heaven before He was on earth.

LordReed:


Now it is obvious you really are reading out of context. John 3:13 you have been quoting reads:

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he
that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

He was in heaven before He was on earth.

I know He was in heaven. But He never ascended up to heaven before He was on earth.

Pr0ton:


I know He was in heaven. But He never ascended up to heaven before He was on earth.

I don't understand. If He is coming from heaven why does He need to ascend first?

LordReed:


I don't understand. If He is coming from heaven why does He need to ascend first?

Since you are adamant to correction I decided to play along with you; watch you confuse yourself, scatter your brain till...



















You run mad

[quote author=Pr0ton post=26917584]Apostle Peter claims

" He committed no sin; no guile was found on his lips . "


Apocryphal, right?

Gonna leave Enoch (His own is not very convincing, I guess)

The problem ...

" Now when the LORD was about to take Elijah up to heaven by a whirlwind, Elijah and Elisha were on their way from Gilgal. " 2 ^nd Kings 2:1

" [color=green]And as they still went on and talked, behold, a

So u call Jesus a liar. Oh sinful and adulterous nation. Let all men be liars and let God be true. Christ can't lie. Pls meet ur pastor for counselling. That's if u have one.

Weah96:


God didn't say anything. Did he say this to you?

yes he did..tru his word d Bible.

Pr0ton:


Since you are adamant to correction I decided to play along with you; watch you confuse yourself, scatter your brain till...



















You run mad

I am only baffled at your need for Jesus to ascend. He was already in heaven and then came down and is a witness but you want Him to ascend first before He can be a witness.

LordReed:


I am only baffled at your need for Jesus to ascend. He was already in heaven and then came down and is a witness but you want Him to ascend first before He can be a witness.

Yh.. According to what your contesting that Jesus was trying to let Nicodemus know that He had been in heaven so He could tell him heavenly things, hence your explanation for John 3:13a...

I then objected that if that was the case then Jesus, according to John 3:13a, actually ascended up to heaven and came back to tell of heavenly things which has no scriptural support.

Now your confused saying why would He have to ascend up to heaven first since He was coming from heaven; questioning what you once averred.

Pr0ton:


Yh.. According to what your contesting that Jesus was trying to let Nicodemus know that He had been in heaven so He could tell him heavenly things, hence your explanation for John 3:13a...

I then objected that if that was the case then Jesus, according to John 3:13a, actually ascended up to heaven and came back to tell of heavenly things which has no scriptural support.

Now your confused saying why would He have to ascend up to heaven first since He was coming from heaven; questioning what you once averred.

Oh I see your confusion. I never averred that Jesus ascended first. I explained to you that the context in which Jesus said No man has ascended needs to be read with the act of witnessing heavenly things. No man has ascended and come back. Jesus was already there and is now with Nicodemus to witness of heavenly things. The ascended never referred to Jesus.

LordReed:


Oh I see your confusion. I never averred that Jesus ascended first. I explained to you that the context in which Jesus said No man has ascended needs to be read with the act of witnessing heavenly things. No man has ascended and come back. Jesus was already there and is now with Nicodemus to witness of heavenly things. The ascended never referred to Jesus.

Wouldn't it, then, be logical of Jesus to say,

"No one has ever descended from heaven..." without the No one as ascended up to heaven?

If the ascended up isn't referring to Jesus who does it refer to then?

Pr0ton:


Wouldn't it, then, be logical of Jesus to say,

"No one has ever descended from heaven..." without the No one as ascended up to heaven?

If the ascended up isn't referring to Jesus who does it refer to then?

.

It would have been logical except He is referring to humans in general. The only way for a human to get to heaven would be to ascend.

LordReed:
.

It would have been logical except He is referring to humans in general. The only way for a human to get to heaven would be to ascend.

So Jesus can't ascend because He is not human?

Pr0ton:


So Jesus can't ascend because He is not human?

An odd question. Jesus eventually did ascend but that is beyond John 3:13.

LordReed:


An odd question. Jesus eventually did ascend but that is beyond John 3:13.

There you go I'm done with you bro.






Feeling bored

Pr0ton:


There you go I'm done with you bro.






Feeling bored

Yeah glad I was able to bore you to death.

[quote author=Pr0ton post=27069594]Alexis when you study the prophecies very well you'll see that they aint for Jesus. Show me how you calculated the weeks in Dan 9 and arrived at the proof for Jesus's authencity.

Later.. Off to chu

Pr0ton:
■ Apostle Peter claims " He committed no sin; no guile was found on his lips . " Apocryphal, right? Gonna leave Enoch (His own is not very convincing, I guess The problem ...
" Now when the LORD was about to take Elijah up to heaven by a whirlwind, Elijah and Elisha were on their way from Gilgal. " 2 ^nd Kings 2:1
" And as they still went on and talked, behold, a chariot of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven " 2 ^nd Kings 2:11
But the Omniscient Jesus ...
" And no man has ascended up to heaven but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man who is in heaven John 3:13
Apart from the lie Jesus told here, I can't imagine the absurdity in His words. He was on earth speaking with Nicodemus yet said "the Son of man who is in heaven" Maybe a confession afterall

I am afraid you are wrong! Elijah was recorded to have been taken up into [b]a [/b]Heaven — probably into the sky and then back down somewhere else here on earth afterwards — but not the Kingdom of God where Heaven(eternal reward) and Hell(eternal damnation) are both abodes in have yet to be opened to men even to this day. Yes, not a single human soul is in Heaven(eternal reward) or in Hell(eternal damnation) — the Kingdom of God — even to this very day that we speak of. Instead, as Jesus Christ informed you, He alone is the one who has been there and has gone back there to prepare a place for those who belong to Him. So what Jesus Christ said was not a lie. Instead, you misunderstand what is written.

Yes, Elijah was taken away but not to the Kingdom of God where Heaven(eternal Reward) and Hell(eternal Damnation) are both found.

Pr0ton:
■ Don't distort English words here. You said it yourself that ascend means 'climb'. Don't you think that going strictly by that word won't be rationally applicable to Jesus but more applicable to Elijah? Elijah went up to heaven; Elijah ascended to heaven what's the difference? Using one part of dictionary meaning ascend also means to 'rise'. Well, was Elijah rising or not? Rockets move up vertically, but aeroplane does its own a kindof horizontally, yet both of them are said to rise. I think that will suffice to illustrate my point.

■ Using a whirlwind doesn't change anything; both Elijah and the whirlwind ascended/went up to heaven. If you must argue about this then your saying something like this--boy A rode a motorcycle to Lagos, but Boy B trekked to Lagos therefore both of them didn't go to Lagos.
■ If Jesus referring was to a different heaven He would have specified, but He didn't-- He was talking about heaven for real.
■ Where's Enoch after God took him Gen5:24 floating in space or in heaven?
■ Eccl 12:7

1. Not trying to hold brief for the other one there, but the Kingdom of God that is spoken of in the New Covenant was never made available to men before Jesus Christ showed up on the scene. So it is erroneous to conclude that it is the same Heaven that was written of in the book of Kings that Jesus Christ must have also come from. Given that Elijah was later returned in the person of John, it is more reasonable to conclude instead that Elijah never left the earth, wherever it was he may have been taken to — from dust you came(he was after all reborn from right here on earth)..... and there is no mention of him being returned to earth to be reborn. (I watch a lot of scifi.)

2. Jesus Christ did specify it, only you haven't been paying attention is all. For one, Jesus Christ made it abundantly clear that except a man is born-again, He cannot enter into the Kingdom of God where Heaven(eternal reward) and Hell(eternal damnation) are both found. Elijah was not born-again and hence could not have gained access to the very same Heaven that Jesus Christ came from and went back to.

3. Enoch was also not born-again and so could not have entered into the Kingdom of God.

4. As for Ecclessiastis 12, according to Genesis 2 vs 6 - 7, man(mind, body, and soul included) was created from the physical clay of this earth, after which God then put His breath(spirit) into a man in order to animate Him. God put the same breath — spirit— into pretty much all living creatures when He created them - Genesis 6 vs 1 - 15. And that is the spirit that returns to God when man's time of earth expires. As for man, the sentence since the beginning for all those who die without knowing God remains the same — from dust you(mind, body, and soul) were made and to dust you(mind, body, and soul) shall return - Genesis 3 vs 19.

Pr0ton:
■ second problem is that your answer shows a clear circumvention based on allegations. Jesus had no such intention of what you claim when He was stating the 'fact' in John 3:13. The statement is clear. Jesus stated this as a fact. No man has ever ascended up to heaven. Obviously after resurrection Jesus was still a man. Remember He showed Thomas those wounds which a ghost couldn't have.

Yes, Jesus Christ ascended into Heaven clothed in flesh and blood — human.

Pr0ton:
I know the term "Son of man" isn't labelled to Jesus only. Ezekiel is also called Son of man in Ezekiel 4:16-17(? But in the context of John13 the Son of man is apparently Jesus.

Son of man simply is another term for a human being or a descendant of Adam.

Pr0ton:
Apostle Peter claims

" He committed no sin; no guile was found on his lips . "


Apocryphal, right?

Gonna leave Enoch (His own is not very convincing, I guess)

The problem ...

" Now when the LORD was about to take Elijah up to heaven by a whirlwind, Elijah and Elisha were on their way from Gilgal. " 2 ^nd Kings 2:1

" And as they still went on and talked, behold, a chariot of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven " 2 ^nd Kings 2:11



But the Omniscient Jesus ...

" And no man has ascended up to heaven but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man who is in heaven John 3:13


Apart from the lie Jesus told here, I can't imagine the absurdity in His words. He was on earth speaking with Nicodemus yet said "the Son of man who is in heaven" Maybe a confession afterall

Enoch and Elijah were taken up or guided there because they do not know the way there themselves. Jesus knows the way there because He came from there, hence He could ascend there all by Himself without being guided there.
He was indirectly telling Nicodemus that 'I know the way there because I'm from there.'
Nicodemus clearly understood what Jesus was saying. Nicodemus himself was a scholar. Rather than challenge Jesus, he actually became a disciple. Jesus didn't lie. You didn't understand what Nicodemus understood.

FxMasterz:

Enoch and Elijah were taken up or guided there because do not know the way there themselves. Jesus knows the were there because He cane from there, hence He could ascend there all by Himself without being guided there.
He was indirectly telling Nicodemus that 'I know the way there because I'm from there.'
Nicodemus clearly understood what Jesus was saying. Nicodemus himself was a scholar. Rather than challenge Jesus, he actually became a disciple. Jesus didn't lie. You didn't understand what Nicodemus understood.

The Kingdom of God where Jesus Christ came from is a reference to the Kingdom of Priests which God said He would make of His Isreal - Exodus 19 vs 6. The promise was foretold by God as coming only when the New agreement arrived to the people, meaning no man had ever entered into that Kingdom before Jesus Christ came died and ascended into Heaven after His resurrection. As Jesus Christ made clear, only those who are born-again can enter into the Kingdom of God and last I checked, Enoch and Elijah were not born-again.

FxMasterz:

Enoch and Elijah were taken up or guided there because they do not know the way there themselves. .

1. There are more than 1 heavens

2. Guile means cunning and deceit, so where is the deceit here?

Did we suffer any harm or loss because this statement was Said or not?

This is just devils looking for something to say. I am sure the idiot has been destroyed and lived and died horribly because of his blasphemy.

Thank God he would soon be transferred to lake of fire for the main service of his punishment.