plaetton:


You still don't get it, do you?

Let me help you.

This type of co council referred to by Martian's link are the types of councils and synods that manufactured the entire sum of your Christian beliefs.
Do you get it now?

The name "Jesus" and the word "Christ" were formally joined together for the first time by one such councils, the Nicean Council.
Did you know that?

The Nice an creed was in imperial fiat legislating the godship of Jesus as the son of god, as well as adding a bonus third god, the holy spirit, as a buy-one-god-get-two-for-free special generously brought to you by his imperial majesty, the murderous Constsntine.

Those councils only validated what was widely known. They might have made formal but that doesnt mean that the body of thought origin at those councils. Jesus' life and teachings say much more about him that what the councils could have done.
Well done for the info though, I will make sure I research more abt dt.
Thanks

Martian:


I guess you have the correct interpretation. Nevertheless, it's not man's interpretation that is faulty, religious beliefs can be faulty because of the ignorance and prejudices of the people who created and sustain them .

Having erroneous beliefs is your prerogative, but trying to impose your beliefs on others and insisting that they are subject to your beliefs will get you nothing but scorn.



http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11044a.htm
"The emperor had by this time escaped from the influence of Eusebius of Nicomedia, and was under that of Hosius, to whom, as well as to St. Athanasius, may be attributed a preponderant influence in the formulation of the symbol of the First Ecumenical Council, of which the following is a literal translation:

We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten of the Father, that is, of the substance [ek tes ousias] of the Father, God of God, light of light, true God of true God, begotten not made, of the same substance with the Father [homoousion to patri], through whom all things were made both in heaven and on earth; who for us men and our salvation descended, was incarnate, and was made man, suffered and rose again the third day, ascended into heaven and cometh to judge the living and the dead. And in the Holy Ghost. Those who say: There was a time when He was not, and He was not before He was begotten; and that He was made out of nothing (ex ouk onton); or who maintain that He is of another hypostasis or another substance [than the Father], or that the Son of God is created, or mutable, or subject to change, [them] the Catholic Church anathematizes.

The adhesion was general and enthusiastic. All the bishops save five declared themselves ready to subscribe to this formula, convinced that it contained the ancient faith of the Apostolic Church. The opponents were soon reduced to two, Theonas of Marmarica and Secundus of Ptolemais, who were exiled and anathematized. Arius and his writings were also branded with anathema, his books were cast into the fire, and he was exiled to Illyria. The lists of the signers have reached us in a mutilated condition, disfigured by faults of the copyists. Nevertheless, these lists may be regarded as authentic.

No one is imposing anything on u. We are information regarding belief systems. U wont judge me based on blind mistakes of others.

Bobbysworld28:

Crazy talk. U hv sounded a bit intelligent... until now.
If this is d consensus amongst atheist, then ur lot is far worse. The universe has an origin. I wont even bore u with d physics of it all. All in all, it is safe to say dt u r r.etarded because of this statement

I didn't say the Universe has no origin, rather that it has no originator. There might be a fine line between the two and you must appreciate that.

Kay17:


I didn't say the Universe has no origin, rather that it has no originator. There might be a fine line between the two and you must appreciate that.

It has an origin but dt origin is uncaused? I still dont agree with u. Read up on articles regarding what even scientists have found out the universe's origins. It will change ur views

Bobbysworld28:

No one is imposing anything on u. We are information regarding belief systems. U wont judge me based on blind mistakes of others.

I'm judging you based on the OP. Aren't you endorsing his views by posting his essay? Besides, what do you have to say about what I posted?

Bobbysworld28:

Those councils only validated what was widely known. They might have made formal but that doesnt mean that the body of thought origin at those councils. Jesus' life and teachings say much more about him that what the councils could have done.
Well done for the info though, I will make sure I research more abt dt.
Thanks

Validated well known what ?
If they were validating anything, then why the imposition of anathema on anyone who disagreed with their so-called validations?

Doesn't it strike you as suspicious that it would take a murderous psychopath like Constantine to forcefully validate what is supposed to be divine truth?

And by the way, I forgot to mention, also, that when they voted that Jesus should be son of god, they also had a lengthy and acrimonious debate about to which god Jesus should be son of .
They eventually settled on Yahweh, the tribal deity of the ancient Hebrews to father to the newly born god-son. lol
Laughable , but very true.

That is why everyone can see that the Hebrew god's behavior, and the God that Jesus supposedly referred to, seem to differ like oil and water.
I guess that they had to force Yahweh to accept Jesus and be born again. lol

plaetton:


Validated well known what ?
If they were validating anything, then why the imposition of anathema on anyone who disagreed with their so-called validations?

Doesn't it strike you as suspicious that it would take a murderous psychopath like Constantine to forcefully validate what is supposed to be divine truth?

And by the way, I forgot to mention, also, that when they voted that Jesus should be son of god, they also had a lengthy and acrimonious debate about to which god Jesus should be son of .
They eventually settle on Yahweh, the tribal deity of the ancient Hebrews to father to the newly born god-son. lol
Laughable , but very true.

That is why everyone can see that the Hebrew god's behavior, and the God that Jesus supposedly referred to, seem to differ like oil and water.
I guess that had to force Yahweh to accept Jesus and be born again. lol

I am sorry but I will have to get back to you on this matter. Pardon my ignorance on this issue

Bobbysworld28:

It has an origin but dt origin is uncaused? I still dont agree with u. Read up on articles regarding what even scientists have found out the universe's origins. It will change ur views

If something as complex as the universe needs a creator, does your god also need a creator?

What makes Yahweh's divinity more valid than Ahura Mazda's if they both have the same type of evidence for support? i.e the avesta and the bible/torah

What makes Jewish mythology special? After all they are not the only culture with epic tales about gods?

Bobbysworld28:

I am sorry but I will have to get back to you on this matter. Pardon my ignorance on this issue

Well, I am glad that you are honest about matters that you do not know.
That's a good sign.

Kay17:


I didn't say the Universe has no origin, rather that it has no originator. There might be a fine line between the two and you must appreciate that.

Interesting. Pls elaborate on that, cos what you just said is worse than magic. At least we see the magician and his bag. Pls elaborate, pls!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Martian:


If something as complex as the universe needs a creator, does your god also need a creator?

What makes Yahweh's divinity more valid than Ahura Mazda's if they both have the same type of evidence for support? i.e the avesta and the bible/torah

What makes Jewish mythology special? After all they are not the only culture with epic tales about gods?

U r trying to confuse urself by taking up too much at the same time.
Was there a creator or not?

@Op give ur life to the flying spaghettimonster before It's too late

Bobbysworld28:


No be u talk am? I believe in Christ!

You believe in a dead Jew?

Bobbysworld28:

U r trying to confuse urself by taking up too much at the same time.
Was there a creator or not?

Yes there was and there is a Creator he is the flying spaghettimonster

Bobbysworld28:

U r trying to confuse urself by taking up too much at the same time.
Was there a creator or not?

No, but I don't rule out the possibility entirely. If there were a creator, it would make sense that the knowledge of said creator would be unambiguous.

The only confused one is you, and I'm noticing that you don't answer questions!
So, what makes jews and their myths special?

Bobbysworld28:

It has an origin but dt origin is uncaused? I still dont agree with u. Read up on articles regarding what even scientists have found out the universe's origins. It will change ur views

Misogynist2014:
Interesting. Pls elaborate on that, cos what you just said is worse than magic. At least we see the magician and his bag. Pls elaborate, pls!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I didn't make any conclusions as to the origin of the Universe. And I don't know where/how you drew the conclusions. We, time, space, physical laws, causality, the entirety of the Universe is said to have a beginning, a starting point. All our reference points are unavailable at the beginning of the Universe, there is a fundamental shift in how we are able to conceptualize this beginning. All the basic assumptions we normally/naturally make are displaced.

Pls if you don't understand me, ask the necessary questions.

Misogynist2014:
Interesting. Pls elaborate on that, cos what you just said is worse than magic. At least we see the magician and his bag. Pls elaborate, pls!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You sef dey here?

Kay17:




I didn't make any conclusions as to the origin of the Universe. And I don't know where/how you drew the conclusions. We, time, space, physical laws, causality, the entirety of the Universe is said to have a beginning, a starting point. All our reference points are unavailable at the beginning of the Universe, there is a fundamental shift in how we are able to conceptualize this beginning. All the basic assumptions we normally/naturally make are displaced.

Pls if you don't understand me, ask the necessary questions.

Pls is it possible for a design to be without a designer? How?

MacCantStopMe:



You sef dey here?

follow me

Misogynist2014:
Pls is it possible for a design to be without a designer? How?

What do you understand by design?

Martian:


If something as complex as the universe needs a creator, does your god also need a creator?

What makes Yahweh's divinity more valid than Ahura Mazda's if they both have the same type of evidence for support? i.e the avesta and the bible/torah

What makes Jewish mythology special? After all they are not the only culture with epic tales about gods?

you agree the universe is complex,
but find it absurd to think it was designed and created. Yet, materialistically, nothing man made comes close to d universe and creation in complexity yet u wud find it absurd if sombody doubted a complex man made artifact because the creator of tht artifct was no where to be seen!

Dapo777:


What do you understand by design?

give an example of any functioning system you know of that had no designer?
Systems in nature excluded,because God is the designer and maintainer of them.

asalimpo:

give an example of any functioning system you know of that had no designer?
Systems in nature excluded,because God is the designer and maintainer of them.

You still didn't answer my question. What is design to you?

asalimpo:


you agree the universe is complex,
but find it absurd to think it was designed and created. Yet, materialistically, nothing man made comes close to d universe and creation in complexity yet u wud find it absurd if sombody doubted a complex man made artifact because the creator of tht artifct was no where to be seen!

What do you use in measuring complexity and What does complex mean to you?

Kay17:




I didn't make any conclusions as to the origin of the Universe. And I don't know where/how you drew the conclusions. We, time, space, physical laws, causality, the entirety of the Universe is said to have a beginning, a starting point. All our reference points are unavailable at the beginning of the Universe, there is a fundamental shift in how we are able to conceptualize this beginning. All the basic assumptions we normally/naturally make are displaced.

Pls if you don't understand me, ask the necessary questions.

mister, your arguments are not only logically unsound they are extremely foolish.
There is simply no simple or complex functioning system that has no designer. None.

If you appeal, to "nature" to make your case,you're floored because, it is not universally believed tht nature has no creator. Christians for one,believe differently.

Dapo777:


You still didn't answer my question. What is design to you?

if u hav a point to make,make it stop tapping ur feet needlessly stallg for an answer.
Wat is creation to u?
Wat is existence to u?
Wat is materiality to u?

How about derivg the complete definition of every term used bf making ur point.

Dapo777:

What do you use in measuring complexity and What does complex mean to you?

go and sleep. It's past ur bedtime.

asalimpo:


if u hav a point to make,make it stop tapping ur feet needlessly stallg for an answer.
Wat is creation to u?
Wat is existence to u?
Wat is materiality to u?

How about derivg the complete definition of every term used bf making ur point.

I won't bite u If u don't know d answer to my question. Just swallow ur pride and say So

asalimpo:


go and sleep. It's past ur bedtime.

That doesn't answer my question. If u don't know d ansa u can humbly say So.

Misogynist2014:
Pls is it possible for a design to be without a designer? How?

asalimpo:


mister, your arguments are not only logically unsound they are extremely foolish.
There is simply no simple or complex functioning system that has no designer. None.

If you appeal, to "nature" to make your case,you're floored because, it is not universally believed tht nature has no creator. Christians for one,believe differently.

There can be no general premise that a design necessitates a designer because it will end up being circular. It would mean everything must be designed (even the designer), and in the worst cases self contradictory. Imagine a premise that all letters must be preceded and succeed by a letter. Letters will run ad infinitum without an end. Same with this case too.

My second problem is that the "design argument" is an observation of man's creativity, and transposing that creativity with the Universe. We as humans see a human form equally responsible for the Universe. We say Man creates boats, cars, buildings and rocket why not a greater form of man create the Universe. In other words, Gods are anthropomorphic. In fact all Gods are.

^^^^
philosophically speaking, the question of "A design doesnt require a designer"
can be converted to this categorical question:
Can a complex or simple system exist without a creator/designer?
ignoring the question "wat is a system?"
the burden will be on the person sayg it is impossible to support his answer with understood examples.

To strenghten his answer,he'll appeal to "systems" in real life:
physcal systems,ideological systems ,abstract systems.
But since we are debating about a physcal system-the earth here - his example will hav to b physcal and complex.
Since there is no such example, the philosophical position must agree with an acceptable example or crumble.
It still boils down to d same thing.
A (complex) system cannot exist without a designer

Sure, you can try to negate d argument by sayg if the complex system is created by a designer and d designer is a complex system himself who is created by a complex system who is created by .... In other words,a recursive paradox emerges.
But logic itself doesnt support this view.

One, if there is a recursve paradox, then there wud b no emergence. I mean, if the recursion doesnt terminate at some point,then there would b no time for lower systems created by higher systems to create lower systems because their identity is still being established.
This assuming the recursive paradox is true and accepted.
if the being called God was created,then He is lower than His Creator, wat then is His creator? God? Then who created His creator? Then who created who created his creator?
If God is created then He isnt God

this is a recursve situation. But we know, there's an alternative to this.
One, there's a base case, from which other cases bulid on.
The first situation is , God being created is impossible because of the recursve spiral.
The second situation,is God isnt Created.
God is the base case.

This are the only two possibilities on the God origin question.

If you harmonise this view,you have a base case that triggers other cases (systems).

Theyre many physcal systems that support this position.