Reyginus:
What design argument?

The design argument, the clockwork argument; that it is commonly used to validate God's existence.

Kay17:


The design argument, the clockwork argument; that it is commonly used to validate God's existence.

I don't know which of them as there may be different argument for design. Which of them are you talking about?

Kay17:


I think I was as clear as a glass

I think if it were I wouldn't ask.

Kay17:


I think I was as clear as a glass

if it were I wouldn't ask.

Kay17:


How do you reconcile design argument with first cause?

Kay17:


The design argument, the clockwork argument; that it is commonly used to validate God's existence.

Why do you pick out the design argument if i may ask> I asked cause i really don't think you need to isolate the design argument alone. I think arguments in general should be related to the first cause.

There are several arguments use to discuss or validate the existence of God. Popular arguments for existence of God includes;

1. the ontological argument,
2. cosmological argument,
3. moral law argument, and
4. the argument from Design. ( Which you refer to as the design argument )

The argument from Design or Design Argument is a more general version of the narrower perspective about irreducible complexity that forms the core of the Intelligent Design movement. Each of these arguments supports a certain belief in a creator.

addempsea:
I beg can someone tell me who created God, I don't
understand.

God is outside time were no cause or effect are real ,Christianity answers the question of who made God in the very first verse of the very first book, Genesis:
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth (Genesis 1:1)
This verse tells us that God was acting before time when He created
the universe. Many other verses from the New Testament tell us that
God was acting before time began, and so, He created time, along with
the other dimensions of our universe:

" No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before TIME BEGIN. (1 Corinthians 2:7)"
"This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the BEGINNING OF TIME (2 Timothy 1:9)"
"The hope of eternal life, which God... promised before THE BEGINNING OF TIME (Titus 1:2)"
To the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory,
majesty, dominion and authority, BEFOR ALL TIME and now and forever. Amen. (Jude 1:25)

The idea that God created time, along with the physical
universe, is not just some wacky modern Christian
interpretation of the Bible. Justin Martyr, a second century
Christian apologist, in his Hortatory Address to the Greeks, said
that Plato got the idea that time was created along with the
universe from Moses: "And from what source did Plato draw the information that time was
created along with the heavens? For he wrote thus: 'Time, accordingly,
was created along with the heavens; in order that, coming into being
together, they might also be together dissolved, if ever their
dissolution should take place.' Had he not learned this from the divine history of Moses?"

malvisguy212:
God is outside time were no cause or effect are real ,Christianity answers the question of who made God in the very first verse of the very first book, Genesis:
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth (Genesis 1:1)
This verse tells us that God was acting before time when He created
the universe. Many other verses from the New Testament tell us that
God was acting before time began, and so, He created time, along with
the other dimensions of our universe:

" No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before TIME BEGIN. (1 Corinthians 2:7)"
"This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the BEGINNING OF TIME (2 Timothy 1:9)"
"The hope of eternal life, which God... promised before THE BEGINNING OF TIME (Titus 1:2)"
To the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory,
majesty, dominion and authority, BEFOR ALL TIME and now and forever. Amen. (Jude 1:25)

The idea that God created time, along with the physical
universe, is not just some wacky modern Christian
interpretation of the Bible. Justin Martyr, a second century
Christian apologist, in his Hortatory Address to the Greeks, said
that Plato got the idea that time was created along with the
universe from Moses: "And from what source did Plato draw the information that time was
created along with the heavens? For he wrote thus: 'Time, accordingly,
was created along with the heavens; in order that, coming into being
together, they might also be together dissolved, if ever their
dissolution should take place.' Had he not learned this from the divine history of Moses?"

My question is how did God come by. I don't see any answer in wah u wrote.

addempsea:
My question is how did God come by. I don't see any answer in wah u wrote.

i said, God is outside time were cause and effect were not real,and i went on and prove to you God created this world with time,the bible say God framed this world through his word,in other word,when he speak the word,cause and effect became real,nobody created God because cause and effect were not real in outside time.

Ymodulus:



Why do you pick out the design argument if i may ask> I asked cause i really don't think you need to isolate the design argument alone. I think arguments in general should be related to the first cause.

There are several arguments use to discuss or validate the existence of God. Popular arguments for existence of God includes;

1. the ontological argument,
2. cosmological argument,
3. moral law argument, and
4. the argument from Design. ( Which you refer to as the design argument )

The argument from Design or Design Argument is a more general version of the narrower perspective about irreducible complexity that forms the core of the Intelligent Design movement. Each of these arguments supports a certain belief in a creator.

Thanks for the assistance.

malvisguy212:
i said, God is outside time were cause and effect were not real,and i went on and prove to you God created this world with time,the bible say God framed this world through his word,in other word,when he speak the word,cause and effect became real,nobody created God because cause and effect were not real in outside time.

Nobody created God, that's ur answer.

Kay17:


Thanks for the assistance.

You welcome

addempsea:
Nobody created God, that's ur answer.

yes.

addempsea:
Nobody created God, that's ur answer.

There are two possible interpretations of thoes verses i qoute.
One is that God exists outside of time. Since we live in a universe of
cause and effect, we naturally assume that this is the only way in
which any kind of existence can function. However, the premise is
false. Without the dimension of time, there is no cause and effect, and all things that could exist in such a realm would have no need of being
caused, but would have always existed. Therefore, God has no need of
being created, but, in fact, created the time dimension of our universe
specifically for a reason - so that cause and effect would exist for us.
However, since God created time, cause and effect would never apply
to His existence.

addempsea:
My question is how did God come by. I don't see any answer in wah u wrote.

I hope that the following helps.

Some people argue that if all things need a cause, then God must also need a cause. So if God needed a cause, then God is not God (and if God is not God, then of course there is no God). Also if we are to remain in the realms of science then we know that life produces life. Everyone knows that something does not come from nothing. So, if God is a “something,” then, of course, He must have a cause.

The question is tricky because it assumes a false assumption that God came from somewhere and then asks where that might be. The answer is that if you knew God then you would not even ask who created Him. God is the unoriginated (1), Almighty (2) {can we understand the concept that there is nothing that God is not powerful enough to do}, Whose understanding, and therefore His knowledge, is without any limits (3), Who is everlasting, has created everything and never becomes tired (4), Who is just and there is none beside Him (5). God is the everlasting, Almighty, all creating self existent I am and so Who could create Him? As God is by character or definition the uncreated creator of the universe, so the question ‘Who created God?’ is illogical. It is like saying, “Where can you get unwet water?”

We know that nothing produces nothing. Consequently if ever there was a time when absolutely nothing existed, then nothing would have come into existence from it. However people and things do exist. Therefore there could never have been a time when absolutely nothing existed. So something had to have always been in existence to start the whole process of time, space and matter. That ever-existing being is who we call God. God is the uncaused Being that caused everything else to come into existence. God is the uncreated Creator who created the universe and everything in it as as Romans c1v20 (6) teaches.
God is not like the universe, as He had had no beginning (7) and so doesn’t need a cause.

A more sophisticated questioner might ask: ‘If the universe needs a cause, then why doesn’t God need a cause? And if God doesn’t need a cause, why should the universe need a cause?’ As mentioned above the universe exists and we are the result of a process. We are marked by time and matter and therefore someone must have started the whole process. God is outside of and greater than matter, space and time. Therefore everything which has a beginning has a cause which includes the universe. God, as creator of time, is outside of time. Since therefore He has no beginning in time, He must have always existed and so did not need a cause. A further point is that as the creator of something is not subject to the constraints of their creation so God is not subject to the constraints of His creation.

Genesis c1v1 ( informs us that God was a being capable of at least the creation of time, space and matter before the time when He created the universe. Other New Testament verses tell us that God was acting before time, space and matter began (9. 10). As we live in a universe of cause and effect, we automatically assume that this is how all existence functions. However, the supposition is false. Since God created time the elements of cause and effect would never apply to His existence.
God has no need to have been created, since He exists outside time, space and matter where cause and effect do not work. The only possible escape for the atheist to support the idea, that the universe itself is eternal and so does not need God, is the invention of a kind of super universe, which can never be confirmed experimentally. Therefore it is metaphysical and not scientific theory.
What if some say that the universe had a beginning but not a cause? But, as shown above, it is plain that things that have a beginning have a cause. All science and history would collapse if this law of cause and effect were denied. Also, the universe cannot be self-caused, as nothing can create itself, because that would mean that it existed before it came into existence, which is absurd.
Therefore God is by character or definition the uncreated Creator of the universe, and also wants to save you from the effects of your sin, that is your wrong thinking, attitudes, words and actions and be your Saviour too (11).

Bible References
1. John c5v26 “For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself.”
2. Genesis c35v11 “And God said unto him, I am God Almighty.”
3. Psalm 147v5 “Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.”
4. Isaiah c40v28 “Have you not known? Have you not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, faints not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding.”
5. Isaiah c45v21 “Tell and bring them near; yes, let them take counsel together: who has declared this from ancient time? who has told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.”
6. Romans c1v20 “For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.”
7. Psalm 90v2 “Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever you had formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, you are God.”
8. Genesis c1v1 “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.”
9. 1Corinthians c2v7 “But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory.”
10. Titus c1v2 “In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began.”
11. Romans c1v16 “For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believes; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.”

I just wanna know the how everything began.

ifeness:
We created God because we think we ain't good enough. We want to think we couldn't be perfect. Therefore anything good we do is being attributed to God,our creation.

First of all, we have to know that nothing and something are two independent but complementary phenomena. It is actually right to say something is the absence of nothing and vice versa. It is also right to say both are mutually exclusive i.e they cannot co-exist. But can something come out of nothing? No! Can nothing come out of something? Yes! Therefore it is very right to say Something existed before nothing, that something is God (alpha and omega).

Kay17 what do you think about this priceless.....?

addempsea:
I just wanna know the how everything began.

The answer is right below your post

Runwellnow:


I hope that the following helps.

Some people argue that if all things need a cause, then God must also need a cause. So if God needed a cause, then God is not God (and if God is not God, then of course there is no God). Also if we are to remain in the realms of science then we know that life produces life. Everyone knows that something does not come from nothing. So, if God is a “something,” then, of course, He must have a cause.

The question is tricky because it assumes a false assumption that God came from somewhere and then asks where that might be. The answer is that if you knew God then you would not even ask who created Him. God is the unoriginated (1), Almighty (2) {can we understand the concept that there is nothing that God is not powerful enough to do}, Whose understanding, and therefore His knowledge, is without any limits (3), Who is everlasting, has created everything and never becomes tired (4), Who is just and there is none beside Him (5). God is the everlasting, Almighty, all creating self existent I am and so Who could create Him? As God is by character or definition the uncreated creator of the universe, so the question ‘Who created God?’ is illogical. It is like saying, “Where can you get unwet water?”

We know that nothing produces nothing. Consequently if ever there was a time when absolutely nothing existed, then nothing would have come into existence from it. However people and things do exist. Therefore there could never have been a time when absolutely nothing existed. So something had to have always been in existence to start the whole process of time, space and matter. That ever-existing being is who we call God. God is the uncaused Being that caused everything else to come into existence. God is the uncreated Creator who created the universe and everything in it as as Romans c1v20 (6) teaches.
God is not like the universe, as He had had no beginning (7) and so doesn’t need a cause.

Why is it necessary for 'something to start everything else?'

A more sophisticated questioner might ask: ‘If the universe needs a cause, then why doesn’t God need a cause? And if God doesn’t need a cause, why should the universe need a cause?’ As mentioned above the universe exists and we are the result of a process. We are marked by time and matter and therefore someone must have started the whole process. God is outside of and greater than matter, space and time. Therefore everything which has a beginning has a cause which includes the universe. God, as creator of time, is outside of time. Since therefore He has no beginning in time, He must have always existed and so did not need a cause. A further point is that as the creator of something is not subject to the constraints of their creation so God is not subject to the constraints of His creation.

Genesis c1v1 ( informs us that God was a being capable of at least the creation of time, space and matter before the time when He created the universe. Other New Testament verses tell us that God was acting before time, space and matter began (9. 10). As we live in a universe of cause and effect, we automatically assume that this is how all existence functions. However, the supposition is false. Since God created time the elements of cause and effect would never apply to His existence.
God has no need to have been created, since He exists outside time, space and matter where cause and effect do not work. The only possible escape for the atheist to support the idea, that the universe itself is eternal and so does not need God, is the invention of a kind of super universe, which can never be confirmed experimentally. Therefore it is metaphysical and not scientific theory.
What if some say that the universe had a beginning but not a cause? But, as shown above, it is plain that things that have a beginning have a cause. All science and history would collapse if this law of cause and effect were denied. Also, the universe cannot be self-caused, as nothing can create itself, because that would mean that it existed before it came into existence, which is absurd.
Therefore God is by character or definition the uncreated Creator of the universe, and also wants to save you from the effects of your sin, that is your wrong thinking, attitudes, words and actions and be your Saviour too (11).

Bible References
1. John c5v26 “For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself.”
2. Genesis c35v11 “And God said unto him, I am God Almighty.”
3. Psalm 147v5 “Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.”
4. Isaiah c40v28 “Have you not known? Have you not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, faints not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding.”
5. Isaiah c45v21 “Tell and bring them near; yes, let them take counsel together: who has declared this from ancient time? who has told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.”
6. Romans c1v20 “For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.”
7. Psalm 90v2 “Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever you had formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, you are God.”
8. Genesis c1v1 “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.”
9. 1Corinthians c2v7 “But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory.”
10. Titus c1v2 “In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began.”
11. Romans c1v16 “For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believes; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.”

My second question to you is; why is God as the uncreated Creator the immediate Cause of the universe?

Misogynist2014:
First of all, we have to know that nothing and something are two independent but complementary phenomena. It is actually right to say something is the absence of nothing and vice versa. It is also right to say both are mutually exclusive i.e they cannot co-exist. But can something come out of nothing? No! Can nothing come out of something? Yes! Therefore it is very right to say Something existed before nothing, that something is God (alpha and omega).

Kay17 what do you think about this priceless.....?

am I to assume I'm Nothing?! Cos if I'm Something then I'm Alpha and Omega

Kay17:


am I to assume I'm Nothing?! Cos if I'm Something then I'm Alpha and Omega

I think you are just kidding. Like maybe you are a pastor's son. I might be wrong tho.

addempsea:
I think you are just kidding. Like maybe you are a pastor's son. I might be wrong tho.

Extract my point, I'm Something too; where am I in your conclusion?

Kay17:


Extract my point, I'm Something too; where am I in your conclusion?

'Cos if I'm Something
then I'm Alpha and Omega'

Kay17:


am I to assume I'm Nothing?! Cos if I'm Something then I'm Alpha and Omega

Oh boy! The topic is about what started the world, if its something or nothing, and I think I have debunked the notion that the world started with nothing, even nothing has to be created by 'something.' With all certainty, I think this 'proof' is substancial and breeds no logical argument(s).

Misogynist2014:
Oh boy! The topic is about what started the world, if its something or nothing, and I think I have debunked the notion that the world started with nothing, even nothing has to be created by 'something.' With all certainty, I think this 'proof' is substancial and breeds no logical argument(s).

But who argued there was Nothingness in the beginning? Nobody did. It is a red herring argument you have made above. Again, I wonder why God becomes the something when the rest of us are not nothing. It only proves the poverty of your argument.

I have my own question for you: "why is there something rather than nothing?"

Kay17:


Why is it necessary for 'something to start everything else?'
It is a scientific fact that only life produces life. Therefore who produced the first life? I do not know if you believe in Evolution but today it is constantly being stated as a fact when in fact it is only a theory with a lot of unanswered scientific questions. If you want good scientific answers then do log onto the good Creation/Evolution websites who have scientists, who are Christians, that can give genuine scientific answers.

My second question to you is; why is God as the uncreated Creator the immediate Cause of the universe?

The fact that we exist shows that someone outside of time, matter and space must have created the universe and started the process of life. What knowledge, and therefore, answer do you have as to Who that Great Being is and what, and how great, is the source of your knowledge? "All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable ..." (The Bible - 2 Timothy c3v16) The great Creator Being has been revealed in the Bible, which is available to us human beings, despite the fact that we have corrupted our ways upon the earth with its impact on creation.

i. You did not answer the second question, because if you did, you would have realized how vulnerable your position is.

ii. My second contention with you is that these quotes of yours don't flow together;

Runwellnow:

The fact that we exist shows that someone outside of time, matter and space must have created the universe and started the process of life. What knowledge, and therefore, answer do you have as to Who that Great Being is and what, and how great, is the source of your knowledge? "All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable ..." (The Bible - 2 Timothy c3v16) The great Creator Being has been revealed in the Bible, which is available to us human beings, despite the fact that we have corrupted our ways upon the earth with its impact on creation.

Runwellnow: We know that nothing produces nothing. Consequently if ever there was a time when absolutely nothing existed, then nothing would have come into existence from it. However people and things do exist. Therefore there could never have been a time when absolutely nothing existed. So something had to have always been in existence to start the whole process of time, space and matter. That ever-existing being is who we call God.

Since you have effortlessly reasoned why Nothing can not exist, you concluded Something must exist which invariably includes all existent entities including you and I, time, space, energy and everything else. So you don't have a starting point from which to begin to argue about time, space, you and I beginning to exist. I hope you understand me. In other words, why is God isolated as the only Something.

iii. Think about this carefully, time itself is a progression of motions and events, it constructs action. Now, how is it possible for GOD to create a Universe in the absence of time. How is cause and effect possible in the timeless realm?

Kay17, you're obviously very interested in philosophy or you wouldn't have joined this discussion. Given that this is the case, it would be interesting to know where you stand. It's fairly obvious that I am a Christian Theist, but what's your system?
As to your questions concerning God and the dawn of time, I think one of the most important things we can do here is try and clarify in our minds as to what we mean when we talk about God. The God of the Bible is regarded as the only non-contingent being, self existent and self sustaining, requiring no prior cause. He is His own reality, and indeed must be, if He is to be called 'God' at all. If you're interested in looking at this further then why not check out 'Reasonable Faith', an excellent website where people a good deal more competent than I am deal with this along with many other philosophical and theological issues.

Runwellnow:
Kay17, you're obviously very interested in philosophy or you wouldn't have joined this discussion. Given that this is the case, it would be interesting to know where you stand. It's fairly obvious that I am a Christian Theist, but what's your system?
As to your questions concerning God and the dawn of time, I think one of the most important things we can do here is try and clarify in our minds as to what we mean when we talk about God. The God of the Bible is regarded as the only non-contingent being, self existent and self sustaining, requiring no prior cause. He is His own reality, and indeed must be, if He is to be called 'God' at all. If you're interested in looking at this further then why not check out 'Reasonable Faith', an excellent website where people a good deal more competent than I am deal with this along with many other philosophical and theological issues.

Is this an indication that you are not interested? I'm commonly referred to as an atheist.

THE Creator. "THE" with an emphasis.

gatiano:
THE Creator. "THE" with an emphasis.

The article used to describe the creator is irrelevant, what matters is whether the universe is indeed a creation.

Kay17:


Is this an indication that you are not interested? I'm commonly referred to as an atheist.

Kay17, This is not an evidence that we are not interested but what is your attitude, please, to these matters?
If you want to get at the truth then I suggest, if you have not already done so, that you read "Is there any Convincing Evidence for God?" on the Wallington Gospel Hall website, and "God Does Not Believe in Atheists" and "Is Somebody Out There?" by John Blanchard, and "Cries of the Heart" by Ravi Zacharias, (in case you might not have come across him, he is a Christian philosopher with talks also on Youtube), Reasonable Faith website, and concerning Evolution that you look at "Creation Ministries International" and "Answes-in-Genesis" and there are others.

If you want to get to the truth then I will try and help.

Runwellnow:


Kay17, This is not an evidence that we are not interested but what is your attitude, please, to these matters?
If you want to get at the truth then I suggest, if you have not already done so, that you read "Is there any Convincing Evidence for God?" on the Wallington Gospel Hall website, and "God Does Not Believe in Atheists" and "Is Somebody Out There?" by John Blanchard, and "Cries of the Heart" by Ravi Zacharias, (in case you might not have come across him, he is a Christian philosopher with talks also on Youtube), Reasonable Faith website, and concerning Evolution that you look at "Creation Ministries International" and "Answes-in-Genesis" and there are others.

If you want to get to the truth then I will try and help.

This is more like an abdication. You have effectively 'outsourced' a discussion to external apologists. I'm not unaware of these authors, but I find them to place an undue emphasis on faith. Faith in my belief is too subjective to form a concrete foundation.