slyfox5555:


The question is similar to asking why does "darkness" exist? Darkness exist because of the absence of Light. Evil exist because of the absence of God. God did not create evil. When you remove God's moral standards: you have a solid framework for evil.

slyfox5555:


The question is similar to asking why does "darkness" exist?

slyfox5555:

When you remove God's moral standards:

slyfox5555:

Evil exist because of the absence of God

Nope... They're not even remotely similar in any way

You mean men's moral standards that they claim was given to them by God.

You mean "...absence of good." The opposite of light is darkness I can understand that but, God hasn't even been proven, you don't know what or how it looks like, all you have is a gddamn hunch based on theories written by some bedouin shepherds years back. So, how the hell did you manage to know it had an opposite not to talk of knowing that it's opposite is evil?

slyfox5555:
LucemFerre
How so?

slyfox5555:

Really, can you prove how moral justification is a products of human-beings?

slyfox5555:
The same old school-boy argument . Since you are an intelligent person - can you prove something that we are familiar with. What you prove energy or tell me what it looks like?

slyfox5555:
What you prove energy or tell me what it looks like?

Good and evil are relative, light and darkness aren't.

Don't shift the burden of proof. Morality exists and God hasn't been proven to exist, it is only logical to conclude that the Bible/Qur'an was written by men who claim voices in their head told them to.

I don't want to misunderstand you but, I guess you wanted to write "Can you prove energy or tell me what it looks like?"
(Correct me if I'm wrong)

And I am highly surprised and disappointed that you are asking me to prove energy. Anyway, here goes... Slam your phone on the wall... Now, that ability that enabled you to temporarily oppose gravity a little bit to transfer your phone from one point to another is energy.

It is a non-physical existence that manifests by it's effect on physical objects. And that is a one way theory.

The theory of an invisible God is a two way theory... It's either it (God) did it or it didn't (independent progressive natural process)

slyfox5555:
LucemFerre
So, murder is relative? How so? I don't get where you are going with light and darkness part

slyfox5555:
I am not talking about the existence of morality; I am talking about the justification of morality - two BIG differences. On what basis, can you say something is right or wrong or something is good or evil?

slyfox5555:
You are not wrong; I was typing too fast and wrote the wrong thing
You have explained the transfer of energy from one form (force - slamming or throwing your phone) to another (friction - the phone hitting the wall) - that doesn't tell us what energy is or what it looks like?

slyfox5555:
You came close i.e. the non-physical part and you are right; the effects of energy on physical objects can be seen. However, none of us knows what energy is or what it looks like - we call it energy just to give it a name. You just confirmed it's non-physical/invisible; yet you believe it.

slyfox5555:
Two way or two thousand ways - makes no difference. The principle is the same. Remember, you termed energy as the non-physical existence. At this point, I will ask you what you mean by that - I don't want to assume.

malvisguy212:
You guys were running rampant , to and fro. Shouting God created evil, seeking who to devour and confusing innocent christians, hope you all have know the truth , God did not create evil but allow evil to exist for human to have option to love or hate God.

Owliver:
Illustration from Bible perspective In the garden of Eden God made it perfect then he put the forbidden fruit of sin. He could have removed the forbidden fruit but left it and warned adam. Do not eat from it. He gave life and death and then he said "choose life" He is a democratic God. He does not force you to serve him. He gives us free will. Happy sunday

jdilight:


Are you saying evil is as self existing as God?

LucemFerre:


God is not self existent, God is mind dependent (faith)

jdilight:


So God's existence started with man as against the teaching he existed before anything?

Also are you saying faith created God?

LucemFerre:


Yep... You are smart

jdilight:


Are you saying evil is as self existing as God?

malvisguy212:
evil is not really a created
thing. You can't see, touch, feel, smell or
hear evil. It is not one of the
fundamental forces of physics, nor does
it consist of matter, energy, or the spatial
dimensions of the universe.

jdilight:


Can you touch good or Satan or angels?

malvisguy212:
a sinner cannot touch God, and we all have sinned ,when God create adam and eve, He talk to them have a relationship with them until they sinned.

jdilight:


I didn't put God there. I said can you touch good or Satan or angels or air or light

malvisguy212:
satan and angels are spirit, you can fell the air,light is the absent if darkness but Good is in the same category of evil.you can't touch good or evil.what your points?

I mean good and evil are dependent. Without conscious beings they won't exist as good and evil. Light and darkness are independent existential REALITIES.

I wasn't talking about the existence of morality either I used the analogy to prove that moral model was created by human beings.

Energy is the property of matter and radiation which is manifest as a capacity to perform work (such as causing motion or the interaction of molecules) - Google

I do not know what energy looks like though.

I believe because it's effect is a fact not a probability that "God's" impact is.

I'm just saying, you are driving towards asking me why I believe in energy when it is invisible and not believe in an invisible God. So, I gave the answer... because we can see the manifestation of what we call energy and there is no other way to look at it. While on the other hand what people call the manifestation of God's work is logical in two ways as I have said earlier... I'm a realist on this matter so, I can't just choose to take one explanation based on preference.

Now back to the matter of saying evil exists because of the absence of God... I say, It is highly inappropriate to base a theory (evil exists) on a probabilistic evidence(God). That was why I went around talking about the truth about creation by God. It would be more appropriate (convenient debatable point) however, to say evil (an objective fact) exists because of the absence of good (another objective fact). Despite that isn't even why evil exist. The absence of good isn't always evil and the absence of evil isn't always good but, that's another story... Don't wanna get into that now.

jdilight:


Lol bro, God created everything from faith to evil. Without him was not anything made that was made..Evil inclusive. The bad thing about evil is its use and so good. If neither is use no result.

LucemFerre:


Hmmm... God made evil (a force as strong as it (God) is) and punish us for choosing it... Aint that a b|+ch... Who's he f\/|<ing with? Us?

jdilight:


My point is all things were made by God. Evil, good, throne which can not be touched, dominion, ppprincipality, powers can not be touched but were created by God.

They all have their purpose.

Do you know why l stop writing here? It is only God that can draw man to himself. Logic cannot do it. Gods ways are not our ways, everything has its purpose in God

malvisguy212:
I see your points, and am happy you are not an atheists. Read the thread again, I believe all what you need to know is in there. Thank you for your contribution.

slyfox5555:

First of all, darkness doesn't exist as we can't measure it.

slyfox5555:
Besides that, the same rule applies, light and darkness will not exist without conscious beings as one have to be conscious to know they exist.

slyfox5555:
You have to be conscious to know what light is; the same way you have to be conscious to know what morality is. However, my point was morality is not the same as human behavior. The fact that murder is wrong is not a human invention.

No it wasn't. Simple example; let us say there were no laws that defined murder and rape was wrong. Someone raped your sister and killed your brother - on what basis would you say what they did was wrong?

slyfox5555:
You have defined the transfer of energy and the effects of energy but still haven't told me what it is. Truth is - no one knows; not even the wisest of scientist.

Thanks for been honest. That is the point after all; you are not the only one that doesn't know what it looks like or it's origin. However, we don't call you irrational or intellectually dishonest because you don't know what energy, it's origin or what it looks like.

I didn't ask you for the effects of energy. I asked you what it was/is. What it looks like or where did it come from. It's effect can clearly be seen. My point is simple - you believe in something that you don't know what it looks like, it's origin or what it is.

I asked you because the same standard you used to describe energy i.e. non-physical or meta-physical. You confirmed that you don't know what it looks like or it's origin. You are not using the same standard when it comes God. You are not being objective when applying the same criteria to the concept of a meta-physical being called God.

It is nice debating with you - I like the fact that you are straight-forward and generally objective. My point is simple, like energy, morality is a meta-physical principle that is justified by a God that gave it. Without morality, the best you can say when something is evil is that - "to you, you don't like it but you have no justifiable basis to say its evil or wrong".

jdilight:


Do you know how we all became sinners? Give me your opinion, l want to show you something.

jdilight:


Bros atheists is spiritually blind, a spiritist has more hope. Don't waste your time, say what you want to say and get going.

You don't mean that, do you?

Right, "One has to be conscious of them to KNOW they exist." Not, "they exist because one is conscious of them"

What you should have said is, "KNOWLEDGE of light and darkness would not exist without conscious beings." If a tree falls in a forest and no one is there, does it make a sound? Yes, but, there was no one to hear it.

"Do unto others as you would want done to you" and please don't quote Jesus... The history of the rule dates as far back as around 600 BC.

Again, refer to the Golden rule. And again not because I do not like it but, because I "act on the maxim that I wish it to be a universal rule"

I don't like repeating myself but, here it is one more time... If you say "God gave the principle that justifies morality" you'd be begging the question because God hasn't been factually proven. And an unproven God appears to be a valid factor in all your argument. Your arguments fall flat.

So, I say (again)... Morality is a fact but, God is a probability and humans are real so, it would be logical to conclude that humans develop morality as something embedded in their consciousness from birth.

And that is the same reason why I'm not treating the existence of God the same way I would treat any other objective reality.

slyfox5555:


The question is similar to asking why does "darkness" exist? Darkness exist because of the absence of Light. Evil exist because of the absence of God. God did not create evil. When you remove God's moral standards: you have a solid framework for evil.

slyfox5555:


The question is similar to asking why does "darkness" exist? Darkness exist because of the absence of Light.