Abuamam:


You do not know what you are saying. You are merely parroting what you read in the hate propaganda news. None of the points you raised above is tenable, but I have no intention to respond to your Gish Gallop techniques. Each specific case merits its own rulings. If you explain each of the cases which you refer to above in such haphazard manner, as it occurred with evidence, then I will be happy to provide you with the backing behind its sentence under Saudi law.

Society as I meant it, refers to the individuals living within a defined geographical location. All society structures must have a system of legislation that ensures the harmony of the whole. If one dissident decides to disturb that harmony, the society is obliged to ensure that harmony is restored, notwithstanding the degree of discomfort this will cause to the individual dissident. If every rebellious individual was allowed to corrupt the mind of the impressionable, anarchy would reign supreme and every person would follow his own rules.

Freedom of an individual should end when it infringes upon the right of another. Ask Libyans, Syrians and Iraqis what freedom has given them.

Incredibly, you state "what is wrong is wrong". That is total fallacy. What is wrong is what the governing members of society deem is wrong. Your belief that flogging is wrong arises from exposure to foreign influences and your background. It csnnot be proven to be inherently wrong. These ethical issues have centuries of deep philosophy behind them and are not dismissed with the kind of banal phrase that you used to drive home a personal opinion.

Na so Na...
Saying the truth about what happens in Islamic countries automatically means Im using the Gish Gallop technique ba?
#Issokay....

I would actually provide proof about my statements to you if I hadn't engaged In the same futile,lengthy,biased and misleading argument with other Muslims.They will ALWAYS ignore facts and start their usual round of apologetics.So I wont engage you.We both know these things happen in these countries.Lets assume some are "justified" and I'm wrong-it'll still be a tiny percentage.95% of these rulings and executions are wrong all the time.But of course,you will never admit tha t. I told you before,I'm not an Islam basher/hater.But I cannot condone injustice.I don't visit Islam sites or read "hate propaganda" news,as you asserted.My statements are mine.Maybe you are a mind reader after all.... I agree with your description of society,prevention of anarchy,and where human rights should be limited.But you contradict yourself by supporting this barbaric sentence.He has a right to his opinion,everyone does. Libya,Syria and Iraq? Which freedom,abeg?

So I have to be exposed to foreign culture to recognize what's wrong abi?Its not innate anymore ba?
#Issokay

And id just love to see you try and justify underage marriage,since you said everything has it's appropriate ruling.Enlighten me please.

The only sensible thing I could glean from your comment (maybe it's my lack of sense) is that everyone is entitled to his opinion. You are right and Islam fully concurs. What the said 'everyone' has no right to do, is disseminate his corrupting opinion with a view to causing disharmony in his environment, and gain personal popularity. You don't correct a percieved tyranny by creating anarchy; where Libya & co. find themselves today.

datopdlink:

And id just love to see you try and justify underage marriage,since you said everything has it's appropriate ruling.Enlighten me please.

Define "underage marriage". Under what age? I need to understand the meaning of your question before I can respond.

datopdlink:


To begin:
My great nation,that I love and respect,is not and never will be a laughing stock.We are facing hard times,and we shall overcome.

"They didn't even kill him."
^^
This is appalling.I'm sure they're saints worthy of emulation for locking him up for a decade,and lashing him a thousand times.They didn't kill him na.

He didn't curse,he criticized.And from your support of these laws,that destroy free speech and expression,I can only say I pity your children.You could beat them till they fainted cos they disagreed with you.Smh. Anyway,I've said it before,Nigerians know nothing about parenting.
#Issokay

And "God" supports this?Are these Gods laws or man made laws?

God supports freedom of speech? Is freedom of speech man made, or God permitted? Let us allow the bible to judge between us:

Deuteronomy 13:1-5
If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a sign or wonder, 2 and if the sign or wonder spoken of takes place, and the prophet says, “Let us follow other gods” (gods you have not known) “and let us worship them,” 3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death for inciting rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery. That prophet or dreamer tried to turn you from the way the Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.

Freedom of expression? Hmm, the gays say they should have freedom to express their 'love' for one another in public. I'm sure you do not support this, as a supposed follower of Christ. We can find many examples of people in the bible being put to death by the Most High, because they wanted to 'express' themselves and do what pleased them.


The reason you think man should say and do as he pleases is because God no longer inflicts on us the curse of the law, i.e. punishment by death.
Shall we continue in sin so grace may abound? God forbid.

My friend, the ways of the Most High, and his Elect (Israel), are different from the ways of the heathen. Come out from among them and be ye separate.

Rexyl:


if you claim to be a Christian, you lie and try all your best to lead those who are not matured spiritually astray. This piece defines your roles in Christendom


2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

2 Timothy 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

lol. God is not a name. Stop thinking like a child.

I am not a 'christian' in the modern sense. You christians today have nothing to do with the bible. You believe the Most High sent Yahshua (Jesus) to create a new religion for the heathen. Hilarious.

So let me prove what I say:

Read all of Jeremiah 23. But here are some interesting verses:

26 How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart;
27 Which think to cause my people to forget my name by their dreams which they tell every man to his neighbour, as their fathers have forgotten my name for Baal.
...

Ezekiel 36:5 Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Surely in the fire of my jealousy have I spoken against the residue of the heathen, and against all Idumea, which have appointed my land into their possession with the joy of all their heart, with despiteful minds, to cast it out for a prey.

This is why you live in Negroland today

Lol at multiculturalism when Islam is involved

you can't do business with armed robbers, that's silly. they are here to rob you, in this case of your rights. yet some people who live in lala land insist they can reason with them

no you can't. that's grand folly. they don't speak the same language as the rest of us modern folk; they speak fear, hate and force. they are bullies, and do you know how to best deal with bullies?

xtianity was bad, very, but Islam might just be the greatest cancer we've encountered as a species. and that's no hyperbole

JesusisLord85:


lol. God is not a name. Stop thinking like a child.

I am not a 'christian' in the modern sense. You christians today have nothing to do with the bible. You believe the Most High sent Yahshua (Jesus) to create a new religion for the heathen. Hilarious.

So let me prove what I say:

Read all of Jeremiah 23. But here are some interesting verses:

26 How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart;
27 Which think to cause my people to forget my name by their dreams which they tell every man to his neighbour, as their fathers have forgotten my name for Baal.
...

Ezekiel 36:5 Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Surely in the fire of my jealousy have I spoken against the residue of the heathen, and against all Idumea, which have appointed my land into their possession with the joy of all their heart, with despiteful minds, to cast it out for a prey.

This is why you live in Negroland today

so you are not a Christian but just out there to cause confusion by spreading erroneous beliefs and false teachings which we know far better how to handle. Satan while temping Jesus was equally quoting from scriptures to support unavailable victory. It was just a word of command by Jesus that defeated and placed him to where he really belonged. Likewise I think a word of command is enough to place you where you really belong.

Rexyl:


so you are not a Christian but just out there to cause confusion by spreading erroneous beliefs and false teachings which we know far better how to handle. Satan while temping Jesus was equally quoting from scriptures to support unavailable victory. It was just a word of command by Jesus that defeated and placed him to where he really belonged. Likewise I think a word of command is enough to place you where you really belong.

Paul was not a 'christian' either...in the modern sense.
I am an Israelite, and I follow the statutes of the Most High God.
You are a christo-pagan, and there are more denominations of your people than there are bible verses. That is confusion

JesusisLord85:


Paul was not a 'christian' either...in the modern sense.
I am an Israelite, and I follow the statutes of the Most High God.
You are a christo-pagan, and there are more denominations of your people than there are bible verses. That is confusion

Paul wasn't a Christian? Can you prove that? As you are bordered about more Christians than copies of Bible, I think you should be involved in the project, print and distribute more bible copies.

And what about this Christ's command?
Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations...

Abuamam:
The only sensible thing I could glean from your comment (maybe it's my lack of sense) is that everyone is entitled to his opinion. You are right and Islam fully concurs. What the said 'everyone' has no right to do, is disseminate his corrupting opinion with a view to causing disharmony in his environment, and gain personal popularity. You don't correct a percieved tyranny by creating anarchy; where Libya & co. find themselves today. Define "underage marriage". Under what age? I need to understand the meaning of your question before I can respond.

If you are allowed to have an opinion,as you say.... But you cannot share your views with others,or converse freely with those who have the same view... In short,if criticism is limited to one person,simply because the powers that be say it will encourage dissent.. Then that's not freedom of speech,shikena.I understand your point...the state must not be threatened(tho,it has been necessary throughout history,dissent is the origin of any revolution,and note,revolution that gets rid of tyrants)but if you want to criticize something/someone,and you're stifled,supressed and threatened with death for that criticism... How is that "freedom"? If he was plotting to overthrow the government by spreading dissent,you might've had a case.He was just expressing himself...and if,throughout history,people decided to keep quiet and obey laws blindly,we might still Be picking cotton today,or living under tyrants.I hope you understand.And I assure you,brother Raif didn't want popularity. As for the marriage issue,ages 1-17.

JesusisLord85:


God supports freedom of speech? Is freedom of speech man made, or God permitted? Let us allow the bible to judge between us:

Deuteronomy 13:1-5
If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a sign or wonder, 2 and if the sign or wonder spoken of takes place, and the prophet says, “Let us follow other gods” (gods you have not known) “and let us worship them,” 3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death for inciting rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery. That prophet or dreamer tried to turn you from the way the Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.

Freedom of expression? Hmm, the gays say they should have freedom to express their 'love' for one another in public. I'm sure you do not support this, as a supposed follower of Christ. We can find many examples of people in the bible being put to death by the Most High, because they wanted to 'express' themselves and do what pleased them.


The reason you think man should say and do as he pleases is because God no longer inflicts on us the curse of the law, i.e. punishment by death.
Shall we continue in sin so grace may abound? God forbid.

My friend, the ways of the Most High, and his Elect (Israel), are different from the ways of the heathen. Come out from among them and be ye separate.

I appreciate your response.

I'm not a Christian tho.

I get you..I'm a very liberal person,yet there are things even I disagree with.I don't support Homosexuality,but I'm no homophobe, and I definitely don't support thier jailing,persecution and gruesome execution.I believe there are ways to limit the influence of homosexuality in our society without resorting to 7th century trends.
I believe in righteousness and morality,and I hope for a better world,but if we decide to do things like to to everyone who has a different opinion and way of life,if we decide to take away peoples right to speak freely,how "moral" are we?
As I said,I understand you.There's so much I don't agree with,so much that's immoral today...but there are ways to counter these things without resorting to inhumane,barbaric methods.Plus, the blogger did nothing wrong,he just expressed his opinion.

Please think about this.

datopdlink:
If you are allowed to have an opinion,as you say.... But you cannot share your views with others,or converse freely with those who have the same view... In short,if criticism is limited to one person,simply because the powers that be say it will encourage dissent.. Then that's not freedom of speech,shikena.I understand your point...the state must not be threatened(tho,it has been necessary throughout history,dissent is the origin of any revolution,and note,revolution that gets rid of tyrants)but if you want to criticize something/someone,and you're stifled,supressed and threatened with death for that criticism... How is that "freedom"? If he was plotting to overthrow the government by spreading dissent,you might've had a case.He was just expressing himself...and if,throughout history,people decided to keep quiet and obey laws blindly,we might still Be picking cotton today,or living under tyrants.I hope you understand.And I assure you,brother Raif didn't want popularity. As for the marriage issue,ages 1-17.

There is nothing like absolute freedom, well maybe in lala land or Enchantsia. It is also neither possible nor desirable. Also you need to understand that Islam is the constitution and the Government in Saudi. So dissent against Islam is dissent against the Government. The Government do not need to wait until he garners a large following of ignorant youth panting after anarchy before they act. An act of treason, as with any other crime, is best nipped in the bud. The Rwandan genocide was incited by a radio station preaching hate. It was called criticism then and the station did not call for killing Tutsis until much later. Initially, it just exercised its freedom of speech to malign them, criticise them and call them 'inyenzi'... cockroaches. The rest is history.
You also seem to conflate scientific creativity with societal rebellion. It was not the rebellion against societal laws that made us to stop picking cotton. It was constructive creativity. The Saudi government today is building state of the art scientific research facilities and universities, and this is in line with the prophetic command to seek beneficial knowledge. As for tyranny, I doubt if you yourself understand what that means. The westerners use it to label any leader who does not serve their interests so as to turn his people against him. For example, Gaddhafi of Libya was referred to as a tyrant. Yet he gave Libyans a quality of life that few 'free' countries can aspire to today. Now Libyans are free of the 'tyrant' and their lives are in shambles. This is the freedom that Saudis do not want.

For your question on marriage.
Marriage CONTRACT is allowed for girls of 1-17 years. However girls whose guardians arrange an early marriage contract, may reject the choice of husband; when they attain the age of discernment and before sexual relations, if they so wish, whereby the marriage contract is voided. This is in line with a number of authentic ahadith which make the approval of the bride an essential condition of marriage, and prohibit forced marriages (though some ignorant muslims do force their wards, thereby breaking the law). In a case where the bride is not physically mature at the time of marriage, she may remain with her parents until physical maturity... puberty or 15years old, whichever comes first, before being given the option of going through with the marriage or opting out as I explained earlier. Islam does not accept that every human suddenly develops physical and mental maturity overnight on the eve of his/her 18th birthday. Each individual person is looked at on his/her own merit.
I hope you now understand the principles of marriage age in Islamic law. It is also pertinent to point out that a girl may not be married off without the express approval of her guardian; the father normally; with the belief that he will be in the best position to look after his daughter's interests and ensure her rights and wellbeing; especially given the special status that daughters have in Islam. Of course there are some fathers who are monsters, like the one who gave up his daughter for a suicide mission in the North, but in a general way, fathers are seen as protectors of their girls.

lastmessenger:

This guy is really brainwashed. Check this out and see who your role model is.

Do you mean sheik abulazeez ibn mohammed was at the day care to pick-up his wife who was enrolled there?

Abuamam:


There is nothing like absolute freedom, well maybe in lala land or Enchantsia. It is also neither possible nor desirable. Also you need to understand that Islam is the constitution and the Government in Saudi. So dissent against Islam is dissent against the Government. The Government do not need to wait until he garners a large following of ignorant youth panting after anarchy before they act. An act of treason, as with any other crime, is best nipped in the bud. The Rwandan genocide was incited by a radio station preaching hate. It was called criticism then and the station did not call for killing Tutsis until much later. Initially, it just exercised its freedom of speech to malign them, criticise them and call them 'inyenzi'... cockroaches. The rest is history.
You also seem to conflate scientific creativity with societal rebellion. It was not the rebellion against societal laws that made us to stop picking cotton. It was constructive creativity. The Saudi government today is building state of the art scientific research facilities and universities, and this is in line with the prophetic command to seek beneficial knowledge. As for tyranny, I doubt if you yourself understand what that means. The westerners use it to label any leader who does not serve their interests so as to turn his people against him. For example, Gaddhafi of Libya was referred to as a tyrant. Yet he gave Libyans a quality of life that few 'free' countries can aspire to today. Now Libyans are free of the 'tyrant' and their lives are in shambles. This is the freedom that Saudis do not want.

For your question on marriage.
Marriage CONTRACT is allowed for girls of 1-17 years. However girls whose guardians arrange an early marriage contract, may reject the choice of husband; when they attain the age of discernment and before sexual relations, if they so wish, whereby the marriage contract is voided. This is in line with a number of authentic ahadith which make the approval of the bride an essential condition of marriage, and prohibit forced marriages (though some ignorant muslims do force their wards, thereby breaking the law). In a case where the bride is not physically mature at the time of marriage, she may remain with her parents until physical maturity... puberty or 15years old, whichever comes first, before being given the option of going through with the marriage or opting out as I explained earlier. Islam does not accept that every human suddenly develops physical and mental maturity overnight on the eve of his/her 18th birthday. Each individual person is looked at on his/her own merit.
I hope you now understand the principles of marriage age in Islamic law. It is also pertinent to point out that a girl may not be married off without the express approval of her guardian; the father normally; with the belief that he will be in the best position to look after his daughter's interests and ensure her rights and wellbeing; especially given the special status that daughters have in Islam. Of course there are some fathers who are monsters, like the one who gave up his daughter for a suicide mission in the North, but in a general way, fathers are seen as protectors of their girls.

Thank you for at least admitting that some people break the law,and not resorting to apologetics.I,however believe no form of agreement/contract should be procured for any female at all,much less below the age of 18.No one should choose who the girl should marry,even if she can decline..Plus,if she agrees,its still an underage marriage,at an age when these girls should be in school...this is not peculiar to Saudi/Islamic culture,so I wont argue anymore.I cannot judge all Muslims by the actions of very few.I just wish these laws didn't exist at all,in any part of the world.We are better than that.
As i said before,I understand your argument on human rights and its limitations...the point here,however is brother Raif did nothing wrong.You cannot compare his actions to the Rwandan genocide...he simply criticized archaic laws,customs and practices That shouldn't exist in the 21st century.Whats wrong is wrong,eternally.In Relation to Islamic countries tho...a change would be a miracle.

datopdlink:


Thank you for at least admitting that some people break the law,and not resorting to apologetics.I,however believe no form of agreement/contract should be procured for any female at all,much less below the age of 18.No one should choose who the girl should marry,even if she can decline..Plus,if she agrees,its still an underage marriage,at an age when these girls should be in school...this is not peculiar to Saudi/Islamic culture,so I wont argue anymore.I cannot judge all Muslims by the actions of very few.I just wish these laws didn't exist at all,in any part of the world.We are better than that.
As i said before,I understand your argument on human rights and its limitations...the point here,however is brother Raif did nothing wrong.You cannot compare his actions to the Rwandan genocide...he simply criticized archaic laws,customs and practices That shouldn't exist in the 21st century.Whats wrong is wrong,eternally.In Relation to Islamic countries tho...a change would be a miracle.

Your 'modern' laws, customs and practices are based on what logical process. For example, what specific criteria was used to peg the marriageable age at 18? Do all modern laws use this age or do some use other ages? and have they always done so? Which of the modern ages is right? You say "I believe..." based on what parameter? State the psychological, physical or anatomical studies that prove it. Deduce logical postulations to prove that 'modern' laws are superior to the shari'a. I can easily prove to any logical person that every single pronounciation in Islamic law, is superior in practical benefit than that of any other law, because the Omniscient God who created us, is in the best position to give us laws to guide us. Man made laws on the other hand, are based on man's flawed reasoning. A limited human brain can never assess all possible outcomes of a circumstance and therefore cannot make a fully applicable law that encompasses all the factors. For this reason, man made laws rarely work as desired, and are always in the process of review and amendment. Witness for instance, the crime rate differences between Shari'a compliant nations and those with modern laws. Which are lower? The results speak for themselves.

You see, it is not your fault. You have been indoctrinated from birth to believe in the system as infallible. You have chosen others to think for you, and therefore, will find it hard to make radical changes in your comfortable worldview, even when you see clear evidence to the contrary... the herd mentality. That is why a teenager loves a song. Because all his influential friends think the song is hip. If all those friends thought otherwise, so would he. At no time is the song judged on its own merit. Islam however, forces us to open our minds, and think. Therefore, the current worldview of Islam is that of rebellion, and words like 'archaic', 'barbaric' etc are just thrown around because CNN and BBC (your influential forces) say it is so. I would advise you to free your mind from all prejudice, then face every issue, based on merit alone, getting all your facts from non-biased sources. Only then would you be making use of the intelligence that was gifted to you.

Abuamam:
Your 'modern' laws, customs and practices are based on what logical process. For example, what specific criteria was used to peg the marriageable age at 18? Do all modern laws use this age or do some use other ages? and have they always done so? Which of the modern ages is right? You say "I believe..." based on what parameter? State the psychological, physical or anatomical studies that prove it. Deduce logical postulations to prove that 'modern' laws are superior to the shari'a. I can easily prove to any logical person that every single pronounciation in Islamic law, is superior in practical benefit than that of any other law, because the Omniscient God who created us, is in the best position to give us laws to guide us. Man made laws on the other hand, are based on man's flawed reasoning. A limited human brain can never assess all possible outcomes of a circumstance and therefore cannot make a fully applicable law that encompasses all the factors. For this reason, man made laws rarely work as desired, and are always in the process of review and amendment. Witness for instance, the crime rate differences between Shari'a compliant nations and those with modern laws. Which are lower? The results speak for themselves. You see, it is not your fault. You have been indoctrinated from birth to believe in the system as infallible. You have chosen others to think for you, and therefore, will find it hard to make radical changes in your comfortable worldview, even when you see clear evidence to the contrary... the herd mentality. That is why a teenager loves a song. Because all his influential friends think the song is hip. If all those friends thought otherwise, so would he. At no time is the song judged on its own merit. Islam however, forces us to open our minds, and think. Therefore, the current worldview of Islam is that of rebellion, and words like 'archaic', 'barbaric' etc are just thrown around because CNN and BBC (your influential forces) say it is so. I would advise you to free your mind from all prejudice, then face every issue, based on merit alone, getting all your facts from non-biased sources. Only then would you be making use of the intelligence that was gifted to you.

Maybe you are indeed a mind reader,I stated previously that I am not influenced by anyone or any body.....my conclusions are mine. Forget how the 18 year age was deduced.....majority of females bodies are matured,at least to some degree at that age....which Is better compared to an "agreeing" female who hasn't reached puberty and will have inter course with a man who is old enough to be her grandfather.Plus the risk of pregnancy and childbirth,at this age....this "logic" just doesn't sit well with me,and i do not and will never need anyone to tell me that. I don't believe that the Creator,who is above all human flaws,who is the embodiment of perfection,would approve of a lot of laws attributed to him today.I may be wrong.But my convictions say no. Sir,you defend these laws so strongly...so you have no issues with ANY of these laws?With females being stoned to death(I don't give a damn what they did,there's lethal injection,which is terrible on its own,but obviously better),With people killed for apostasy(change of belief)?And please don't liken apostasy to treason.With females treatment(they cant even drive,smh),and a lot of other laws?You're fine with this?It doesn't bother you?And you say I am indoctrinated and influenced.Okay,please explain,how are these laws better than other laws?(Your own question,you can just explain the few I've stated) Your song analogy doesn't apply to me,at all.At all.Im a music enthusiast,and I recognise good music when I see it,same applies to bad music.I don't and will never need anyone's influence on my choice of music,or my decisions and character.Maybe other people are indeed tied to the herd mentality .I am not and will never be one of those people. To the issue of crime,the only reason(which is very obvious)why there are lower crime rates in these countries is fear.And anyone who uses fear to control people is weak.I prefer to live in a society where I'm not scared of everything,yes,even with the crime rates.At least,mentally,I'm not shackled by fear...im not so scared to the point where I support the same laws that shackle me,and when someone challenges these laws I support a barbaric and very archaic sentence. Hmph.And you say I'm indoctrinated.Funny,funny indeed.