finofaya:


Can God even experience awe? Being the creator of everything, I don't think he can find anything captivating. If the greatest mind in the universe cannot be awed by anything, you have to wonder whether there is any thing that is truly awe inspiring.

Where did God tell you he can't be awed?

italo:
Where did God tell you he can't be awed?

Well there's a certain level of being awed that takes an "I don't know how this happened" stance to appreciate.

Take for example...a land next to a lake filled with flowers,do you appreciate it more when you know how it happens or when you don't?..

Or even take for example,tribal natives who don't know what a mirror is...they'll gaze in awe and you won't(that-is if you know what a mirror is)..

It can also be felt when something unexpected happens.....so can an "omnipresent,omnipotent,omniscient god" feel any of this without breaking any of its alleged attributes?

italo:
Where did God tell you he can't be awed?

Nowhere. He tends to ignore me. Davien has explained why God can't experience awe. I agree with him.

davien:
Can you tell us all what a "god" is and how you deduced it to be the "author" of nature?

By learning and experiencing what I learnt...just like you deduced all you know.
[quote author=davien post=29975641] So how does something that is termed by you as "perfect truth and love",responsible for beings like us that lack "perfect truth and love"

There's no law that says the creature must have the full properties of the creator. Correct me if I am wrong.

davien:
You seem to be pushing an ideology here, can you explain how the unknown(which we cannot find) is evident of an as yet undefined "god"?

You say "undefined" yet you associate him with omnipotence, omnipresence and omniscience.

davien:
I doubt I or anyone has the idea of what a " perfectly truthful being" would be,can you tell us anything concrete about where the idea of this being originated and how you know it to be true...

Do you want me to be perfectly truthful in answering you? Why do you want this? You got it from nature?

davien:
The term varies in contexts.....perfect may mean consistency...perfect may mean completion....perfect may mean alot of things....so the ball is in your court to tell us which aspect best applies to this idea of yours...

We are constantly seeking perfection in other humans, for example. That's why we are hurt when a spouse who has never lied to us tells just one lie.

Is the above kind of perfection achievable? If not, why are we hardwired to seek it.

*I'm not trying to prove the existence of God to you. I'm only telling you what I know to be the reason for our fascination with beauty and environment. You are free to keep seeking the answer all over the place...or to believe that beauty is the absence of fear like plaeton said...or anything else.

If you want proof for the existence of God I think you should open another thread.

Can you explain how the environment is beautiful and how it captivates you? (I can ask questions too)

italo:

There's no law that says the creature must have the full properties of the creator. Correct me if I am wrong.

The bible makes the claim of the "god" you worship and in it,it terms human beings as being made in "the image of god".....

You say "undefined" yet you associate him with omnipotence, omnipresence and omniscience.

I always employ fair skepticism to every theist....I want you to define your terms....the attributes I listed in my response to you(on a different subject) were alleged attributes(i even indicated that they were)....so do you agree with those alleged attributes or do you have yours?

Do you want me to be perfectly truthful in answering you? Why do you want this? You got it from nature?

Should I be seeking false information?...you claimed this below

Where does he get the idea of a perfectly truthful being?

And I asked you what a "perfectly truthful being" would be, because there is no theme I know of that qualifies..

*I'm not trying to prove the existence of God to you. I'm only telling you what I know to be the reason for our fascination with beauty and environment. You are free to keep seeking the answer all over the place...or to believe that beauty is the absence of fear like plaeton said...or anything else.

If you want proof for the existence of God I think you should open another thread.

You made positive statements here as though they were facts and I queried you on them...

Can you explain how the environment is beautiful and how it captivates you? (I can ask questions too)

No I can't,because it is a totally subjective experience(atleast in the context you're asking)

plaetton:
^^^
Therefore, I think beauty is better defined as the absence of fear. We see beauty when we are at comfort and ease.
A feared object can hardly ever take on the attributes of beauty.

I disagree. I see a beauty in snakes but it doesn't stop me from loathing them. I rather tend to believe that beauty is both an inherent quality and a state of mind. There are two qualities I believe define any beautiful thing, colour and aesthetic positioning. Take the star studded night sky for example, the simple contrast between the stars and their background plus their positioning lends them a beauty. These two qualities can be applied to humans, art works, landscapes, buildings, etc and still define what is beautiful. Where the state of mind comes in is the subjective viewing of any object, you nailed it where you said we all see things differently so sometimes not every one may see the beauty in a particular object, gorillas for example.

macof:

while reasonable people reason with their brains you most likely don't

Yes the same reasonable people who hard become confused, cynical and skeptical.
They have become professors in chasing shadows and they boast of their foolishness.

So yes, I think reasoning with the heart is a better option.

macof:
yh we see how he went all emotional throughout the Bible killing discriminately

God is love.
Love is wisdom.
Such wisdom is incomprehensible by mere men.

macof:


Have you allowed god unleash his love in ur life?

Yes to an extent.

Hiswordxray:

God is love.
Love is wisdom.
Such wisdom is incomprehensible by mere men.

Does love keep a record of wrongs?

davien:
The bible makes the claim of the "god" you worship and in it,it terms human beings as being made in "the image of god".....

I always employ fair skepticism to every theist....I want you to define your terms....the attributes I listed in my response to you(on a different subject) were alleged attributes(i even indicated that they were)....so do you agree with those alleged attributes or do you have yours?
Should I be seeking false information?...you claimed this below

And I asked you what a "perfectly truthful being" would be, because there is no theme I know of that qualifies..
You made positive statements here as though they were facts and I queried you on them...
No I can't,because it is a totally subjective experience(atleast in the context you're asking)

To be frank, I don't intend to try to prove God's existence to you because I dont think you are ready for it.

I came here to tell you what I know for sure.

You are free to keep searching for meaning all over the place.

Many of us have found the essence of life long ago.

davien:
Does love keep a record of wrongs?

No, but love always put others first.

italo:


To be frank, I don't intend to try to prove God's existence to you because I dont think you are ready for it.

I came here to tell you what I know for sure.

You are free to keep searching for meaning all over the place.

Many of us have found the essence of life long ago.

Good for you then, the rest of us don't style with "god did it"...

Hiswordxray:

No, but love always put others first.

If love doesn't keep a record of wrongs then how can "god" atone for sins?....there should be no atonement if "god" is love and love doesn't keep a record of wrongs.

davien:
Good for you then, the rest of us don't style with "god did it"...

I know. "Nothing did it. It all just happened out of nothing."



Maybe someday I'll have enough faith to believe that.

italo:


I know. "Nothing did it. It all just happened out of nothing."



Maybe someday I'll have enough faith to believe that.

No one has made any positive claim here but you....thank you for your opinion though

Hiswordxray:

God is love.
Love is wisdom.
Such wisdom is incomprehensible by mere men.

Yet you have been able to comprehend it so well..
unless you are not a Man

Hiswordxray:

Yes to an extent.

Pls elaborate..how have u felt the warmth of God's love

Hiswordxray:

God is love.
Love is wisdom.
Such wisdom is incomprehensible by mere men.

If god is love and god is wisdom, then god should tot be feared.
God should not threaten or put people in hell under any circumstances.

In fact, if god is love and wisdom, then god should always welcome and encourage skepticism , challenge and even rebellion amongst his children, not fear and insecurity as we see in the bible.

italo:


To be frank, I don't intend to try to prove God's existence to you because I dont think you are ready for it.

Ha ha .
You have not been able to prove god's existence to your self, that's why you have something called faith.
You are a person of faith. simple.
Faith doesn't require proof.
Am I right, Italo?

plaetton:


Yes sir.
But question remains whether beauty is a qualitative thing or a state of mind.

Is it a real graspable quality or an abstract of the mind?

I don't get the dichotomy. Why should a qualitative thing not be a state or abstract of the mind?

Perhaps you could clarify what you mean there.

Let me press on with something that might interest you and perhaps it is what you are asking me, though I'm not sure.


I do believe that the World of Experience is Dual. There is the Empirical World and there is a World of Enchantment.


To demonstrate these two worlds let me cast your mind back to something that you've perhaps experienced before. Most people have. Some people claim it hasn't happened to them before.
Do you ever remember being heartbroken? There was this cute little sweetie pie that was the apple of your eye. Then one day she told you she wasn't doing anymore. Plaetton was crushed. Plaetton was distressed. Plaetton was deflated.

Now I want you to remember your dinner that evening. Maybe you couldn't even eat that evening so let's fast forward a couple of days and you have a dinner set before you. Let's imagine it is Eba and groundnut soup.

You can recognise the texture of the Eba. You can taste the groundnut in the soup. You can taste the fish. These three things are all recognisably eba groundnut and fish. No doubt about it.
Yet there is something missing. 'sweetness' of the soup is not there. The Delight you get from feeling the lump of eba descend your throat is not there. Yet empirically you don't miss a single thing in the sensation. You feel the solidness of the lump, you recognise the taste and texture as eba. The only thing missing is the delight that usually accompanies these empirical sensations. The 'yumminess' of it.

Even sugar sef, you can taste it and empirically recognise that it is sugar and that it is sweet, yet it is sweet without a certain 'sweetness'. That certain 'sweetness' that delight belongs to the World of Enchantment. Thanks to your depression you are able to recognise that there are 2 worlds of Experience. The empirical world and the world of Enchantment which contains all the delight and zest and fervour with which you meet life every morning when you wake up.

It is certainly a qualitative thing. Enchantment adds quality to the World of experience. However can I say that it is not a subjective thing? That it doesn't occur in the mind too? I think everything occurs in the mind, both the Empirical and the Enchanted.

The fact that they can be separated demonstrates that they are two separate parallel worlds, though we usually experience them as commingled.

davien:
If love doesn't keep a record of wrongs then how can "god" atone for sins?....there should be no atonement if "god" is love and love doesn't keep a record of wrongs.

Sin is not just something bad that you did against God but it is also something that you do against yourself that could destroy you.
When God atone for your sin He is not doing it to appease His anger but He is doing it to save you from the destruction you and invited into your life. God atone for your sin because He loves you not because he is angry and keeping record of your sin.
Like I said before, love doesn't keep record of wrong but it cares about others. God atone for you sins because He cares for you.
“For this is like the waters of Noah to Me; For as I have sworn That the waters of Noah would no longer cover the earth, So have I sworn That I would not be angry with you, nor rebuke you." (Isa 54:9).
God had sworn never to be angry with you (His covenant people/born again Christians) therefore there is nothing we can do that could make God angry with us.

macof:


Yet you have been able to comprehend it so well..
unless you are not a Man

I do not claim to have comprehend it so well but I have to an extent. And this is because I am not a mere man. I am a child of God, I was given birth by the one who created the whole universe. I look like my father and I carry is nature. I am filled with the fullness of God. Inside me contains all the power of God, all His wisdom, all His righteousness, all His glory and all His holiness.

So yes I am not a mere man but a new creature, a new speices and an alien from another world. I am far, far, far greater than mere human being.

macof:


Pls elaborate..how have u felt the warmth of God's love

There was a time I was praying and suddenly I felt like I was in God's presence, sitting by His side and placing my head on His laps. I felt overwhelming love running through my body and soul, it almost melt me. It was so sweet and I never wanted to leave His presence. I wanted to remain there for eternity but I heard a voice saying I should leave. I didn't want to listen but I know I would have to leave eventually. After a while I left His presence and returned back to myself.

But whether I am in the spirit or not I know God loves me and I always experience His love.

Hiswordxray:

Sin is not just something bad that you did against God but it is also something that you do against yourself that could destroy you.
When God atone for your sin He is not doing it to appease His anger but He is doing it to save you from the destruction you and invited into your life. God atone for your sin because He loves you not because he is angry and keeping record of your sin.
Like I said before, love doesn't keep record of wrong but it cares about others. God atone for you sins because He cares for you.
“For this is like the waters of Noah to Me; For as I have sworn That the waters of Noah would no longer cover the earth, So have I sworn That I would not be angry with you, nor rebuke you." (Isa 54:9).
God had sworn never to be angry with you (His covenant people/born again Christians) therefore there is nothing we can do that could make God angry with us.

Okay....since "sin" is something bad you do to yourself is unbelief a "sin" and what harm is it to the unbeliever?

plaetton:


If god is love and god is wisdom, then god should tot be feared.
God should not threaten or put people in hell under any circumstances.

In fact, if god is love and wisdom, then god should always welcome and encourage skepticism , challenge and even rebellion amongst his children, not fear and insecurity as we see in the bible.

The kingdom of God is the kingdom of life. And there is a huge difference between life and death. Just as definitions of a term varies from one discipline to another so also definition of fear varies from the kingdom of life to the kingdom of death (the world).
In the kingdom of God fear means respect or to reverence.
But in the kingdom of death (the world) fear is something negative and it is association with torment and other negative feelings.
"The Bible, talking about the world kind of fear said "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love." (1John 4:18).

As a father would you rejoice when your child is always questioning your authority, love and words?
As a father would you set up a party when your child rebel?
Let me tell you a story:
There was a man who had trained his child to always obey his command before questioning it. One day he was walking (in a place filled with very tall grass)with is son and wife and the son was ahead of them. They reached a cross road and the son was too small that he couldn't see a car coming. The father saw this car but was too far away to save his son from being hit by the car. All he could do is to call out his son and order him to stop immediately. The son stopped and as he stopped the car pass by and didn't hit the small boy. If the boy had taken one more step further he would had been crushed by that car. But luckily for the boy he had learn to obey his father without asking any question. If the father hadn't teach his son to always obey before asking questions his son would had died that day.

God loves you so much the he wants to train you in a way that you always believe and obey him before asking questions so the he would be able to save you at anytime in order to prevent you from causing damage to yourself.

Yes God is love and love is wisdom.
Wisdom and love prefer to train children in certain way that will allow them to be rescued by learning to obey commandments without questioning. Love and wisdom will do this for the sake of the child.

davien:
Okay....since "sin" is something bad you do to yourself is unbelief a "sin" and what harm is it to the unbeliever?

Unbelievers are spiritually dead and that is the greatest disease in the whole universe. God loves you so much that he provided a cure which is Jesus. Therefore not believe in Jesus is the greatest harm anyone could do to himself.
This terrible disease call "death" would lead to a meaningless and frustrated life and at the end Hell. You would experience both hell on earth and Hell after you die.
God loves you and desire to cure you, so take the cure now.

Hiswordxray:

Unbelievers are spiritually dead and that is the greatest disease in the whole universe. God loves you so much that he provided a cure which is Jesus. Therefore not believe in Jesus is the greatest harm anyone could do to himself.
This terrible disease call "death" would lead to a meaningless and frustrated life and at the end Hell. You would experience both hell on earth and Hell after you die.
God loves you and desire to cure you, so take the cure now.

What led to the disease of death and why is the cure not free for unbelievers?......since "god" is love and love is unconditional,why is "god" conditional towards unbelievers?

davien:
What led to the disease of death and why is the cure not free for unbelievers?......since "god" is love and love is unconditional,why is "god" conditional towards unbelievers?

.
You keep asking questions but all the questions you have asked are the wrong ones. The right question is "how can I be saved?".
Well, I'm getting tired of answering the wrong questions but I would answer this last one.
When Adam sinned all men died. Everybody was born dead but yet every person still has the ability to limit the advancement of death in their lives but we all failed. We couldn't manage this disease but we allowed it to spread still it totally intoxicated us.
We fail, but God still loves us and He ran to our rescue because we can't help ourselves. God didn't give us any conditions, He simply gave us the cure.
"Namely, the righteousness of God which comes by believing with personal trust and confident reliance on Jesus Christ (the Messiah). [And it is meant] for all who believe. For there is no distinction" (Rom 3:22).
The cure is meant for everybody, their is no needed requirements because God's solution is all inclusive. All you have to do is take this cure by believing because it is by faith we receive that which He had already given us.

Hiswordxray:
.
You keep asking questions but all the questions you have asked are the wrong ones. The right question is "how can I be saved?".
Well, I'm getting tired of answering the wrong questions but I would answer this last one.
When Adam sinned all men died. Everybody was born dead but yet every person still has the ability to limit the advancement of death in their lives but we all failed. We couldn't manage this disease but we allowed it to spread still it totally intoxicated us.
We fail, but God still loves us and He ran to our rescue because we can't help ourselves. God didn't give us any conditions, He simply gave us the cure.
"Namely, the righteousness of God which comes by believing with personal trust and confident reliance on Jesus Christ (the Messiah). [And it is meant] for all who believe. For there is no distinction" (Rom 3:22).
The cure is meant for everybody, their is no needed requirements because God's solution is all inclusive. All you have to do is take this cure by believing because it is by faith we receive that which He had already given us.

What's the use of you insisting i join your religion when i'm not convinced of any of its claims?...And you've failed miserably to account for everything I asked.....so goodbye..

davien:
What's the use of you insisting i join your religion when i'm not convinced of any of its claims?...And you've failed miserably to account for everything I asked.....so goodbye..

Well, keep running from the reality. But you can't run forever...

plaetton:
^^^
Therefore, I think beauty is better defined as the absence of fear. We see beauty when we are at comfort and ease.
A feared object can hardly ever take on the attributes of beauty.

“For beauty is nothing but the beginning of terror
which we are barely able to endure, and it amazes us so,
because it serenely disdains to destroy us.
Every angel is terrible.”


― Rainer Maria Rilke, Duino Elegies