"I agree with people like Richard Dawkins that mankind felt the need for creation myths. Before we really began to understand disease and the weather and things like that, we sought false explanations for them. Now science has filled in some of the realm – not all – that religion used to fill."- Bill Gates

manichukk56:
I often ask my self, what is it in man that he needs a creator,why couldn't the universe just be created due to unknown uncertainties...why does the religious man need an invisible skydaddy to help him...when an argument arise between an atheist and a theist, the theist often starts with the false presupposition of a deity which in itself is circular reasoning and a logical fallacy.... Can any theist prove why the universe needs a creator..

Esiri111:

This IS Simple Logic.
CAUSE and Effect;
In logic there is a principle that states: every effect must have an adequate cause. This is the basis of all science. This “law” of correct thinking bears a relationship to the origin of the universe. It is well established that the universe has not existed forever. Dr. Robert Jastrow, internationally known space scientist, declared that “modern science denies an eternal existence to the Universe.”If the universe has not existed forever, how can its origin be explained? There are only two possibilities: it was self-created; or it was created by something or someone other than itself, and of a nature different than thematerial.However, no material thing is able to create itself. If that were possible, there would be evidence of such. But the First Law of Thermodynamics argues that matter is not nowbeing created. Since matter could not have formed itself, it must have anon-materialsource, i.e., a “mind” cause. Great thinkers have concluded that this Mind is God.

manichukk56:


first you have to tell me which God, is it the abrahamic god, the hindus god, krishna,thor which one of the 5000gods are you referring to....

Then you have to state what caused a particular God you are referring to and why the universe can't create itself due to the laws of physics

manichukk56:
True, what i can't wrap my head around is [size=14pt]why people always want a god/deity to create[/size] ... What of if sub_quantum fluactuations was what caused our universe to appear

manichukk56:
I often ask my self, what is it in man that he needs a creator,why couldn't the universe just be created due to unknown uncertainties...why does the religious man need an invisible skydaddy to help him... when an argument arise between an atheist and a theist, the theist often starts with the false presupposition of a deity which in itself is circular reasoning and a logical fallacy.... Can any theist prove why the universe needs a creator.. (i dey laff o! )

efficiencie:


Well bro if the universe had no creator then the law of conservation of matter (mass) is wrong and the foundations of classical and modern physics will be more or less bread crumbs!

law of conservation of matter - a fundamental principle of classical physics that matter cannot be created or destroyed in an isolated system
source: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/law+of+conservation+of+matter

Now what then was the state of matter that resulted in the singularity, infinite mass, near zero volume that resulted in the big bang?

You are a thinker and you know that by the 'kalam argument' every effect has a cause ...there are no such things as ACCIDENTS! Even philosophers agree to this...so tell me thinker, Is it logical to assume that a few seconds prior to the big bang the universe was a singularity with a near zero volume and infinite mass!? What existed 1000 years before the big bang (because the primordial singularity cannot be stable for that long)? I could use a lil lecture on particle physics!

Answer my questions, leave me speechless as in make me go and i'll renounce my faith ...

timonski:
do you now believe in God?

Emusan:


@bolded-I can't stop laughing at your ignorance.

Can any man want God to create?
Christianity which I belong to doesn't just want God to create to cause misunderstand between people about our universe RATHER God the Creator has revealed Himself to many people to let them know that He exists and He's the creator of all things.

I so much love this verse...
"Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools," Romans 1:22 KJV

Emusan:


@bolded-I can't stop laughing at your ignorance.

Can any man want God to create?
Christianity which I belong to doesn't just want God to create to cause misunderstand between people about our universe RATHER God the Creator has revealed Himself to many people to let them know that He exists and He's the creator of all things.

I so much love this verse...
"Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools," Romans 1:22 KJV

efficiencie:


Well bro if the universe had no creator then the law of conservation of matter (mass) is wrong and the foundations of classical and modern physics will be more or less bread crumbs!

law of conservation of matter - a fundamental principle of classical physics that matter cannot be created or destroyed in an isolated system
source: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/law+of+conservation+of+matter

Now what then was the state of matter that resulted in the singularity, infinite mass, near zero volume that resulted in the big bang?

You are a thinker and you know that by the 'kalam argument' every effect has a cause ...there are no such things as ACCIDENTS! Even philosophers agree to this...so tell me thinker, Is it logical to assume that a few seconds prior to the big bang the universe was a singularity with a near zero volume and infinite mass!? What existed 1000 years before the big bang (because the primordial singularity cannot be stable for that long)? I could use a lil lecture on particle physics!

Answer my questions, leave me speechless as in make me go and i'll renounce my faith ...

Emusan:

I so much love this verse...
"Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools," Romans 1:22 KJV

manichukk56:


what is quantum fluctuation, this is the sudden appearance of energetic particles in vacuum.. Its been proven that in vacuum energtic particles can pop out of vacuum and disappear back into nothingness.. So before the singularity at a point these energetic particles would have collided together and keep getting bigger which might have lead to the bigbang, though there are other scientific theories prior to the big bang

Esiri111:

This IS Simple Logic.
CAUSE and Effect;
In logic there is a principle that states: every effect must have an adequate cause. This is the basis of all science. This “law” of correct thinking bears a relationship to the origin of the universe. It is well established that the universe has not existed forever. Dr. Robert Jastrow, internationally known space scientist, declared that “modern science denies an eternal existence to the Universe.”If the universe has not existed forever, how can its origin be explained? There are only two possibilities: it was self-created; or it was created by something or someone other than itself, and of a nature different than thematerial.However, no material thing is able to create itself. If that were possible, there would be evidence of such. But the First Law of Thermodynamics argues that matter is not nowbeing created. Since matter could not have formed itself, it must have anon-materialsource, i.e., a “mind” cause. Great thinkers have concluded that this Mind is God.

efficiencie:


Sir the bolded argument flies in the face of reason! accepting that those primordial particles could come into existence at one point and vanish at another, is dangerous don't you think! It means another universe could be forming somewhere else by accident! In addition if i'm to accept that space time started with the big bang then i must ask in what medium did this initial singularity exist...did it exist in space? How long did it take this singularity to build up from primitive particles? And if these questions are valid can be conclude that space-time existed before the big bang? If the last question is answered in the affirmative what must have resulted in space-time before the big bang? Would it be another big bang? I dey laff o

ifeness:
Does a volcanic mountain need a creator? No!

ifeness:
Does a volcanic mountain need a creator? No!

manichukk56:
True, what i can't wrap my head around is why people always want a god/deity to create ... What of if sub_quantum fluactuations was what caused our universe to appear

manichukk56:


first before i continue this interactive learning, i dim it best that you study a little quantum physics .. And yes another universe could be forming at this moment , there are theories on multiverses.. ¹ Also its been proven that energetic particles appear out of nothingness make your research... ² However spacetime cannot be formed before the universe, contemporary /classical physics and quantum physics has always had headon collisions with eachother hence the formation of the M-theory. ³ .finally we don't know everything yet we are just a speck in this vast universe but thats the joy in science the zeal to explore and research as a physicist i keep my mind open to the possibilities and not constraining myself to closedminded ideas

manichukk56:


if you agree with the creation story of the bible, then it is me who laughs at your ignorance... The bible in itself is a claim not EVIDENCE.. And also personal delusions are not enough proof for the existence of a deity
And you have to tell me why it has to be your God that creates not the hindus, muslim etc

efficiencie:


Sir on ur comment 1, that's a theory! An empirically unfounded theory... if multiverses exist then i ask again what is the medium within which the multiverses exist? Or did they just hang out somewhere?

On ur comment 2, if particles can pop out of nothingness then the cause-effect life of science is dead here. if something A can come out of nothing φ then A∈φ and that's a mathematical contradiction. How are these magical particles formed? Are these particles observed within our universe? And if they are, is it possible for another big bang to start another universe within our universe!?

On ur comment 3, if space-time did not exist before the big bang then in what dimensions did the particles that formed the initial singularity exist?

your answers lead to more questions!

Sir science is neither stable nor reliable. It asks more questions than it can answer and when it answers all it gives are conjectures and hypotheses... Even Karl Popper acknowledges this by ascerting that 'science is a series of refutations and corroborations'...