johnydon22:

Exactly what am talking about.. If he knows exactly what you will do (and you cannot do the contrary) is that really freewill?

Because you know exactly what I will do tomorrow, does that mean I lost my will of thought and action? It only means that you have extraordinary talent in dissipating my moves though the probability is very minute among the pools of probabilities.

Misogynist2014:
Because you know exactly what I will do tomorrow, does that mean I lost my will of thought and action? It only means that you have extraordinary talent in dissipating my moves though the probability is very minute among the pools of probabilities.

That i know exactly what you do tomorrow doesnt mean you cannot do otherwise..
Since your are free to do all you want you can do contrary to what i know and it turns out my fore-knowledge was wrong. (mind you i didnt claim to have created you, if i created you and at the same time know exactly what you will do means i also created those actions in the process of creating you)

johnydon22:

That i know exactly what you do tomorrow doesnt mean you cannot do otherwise..
Since your are free to do all you want you can do contrary to what i know and it turns out my fore-knowledge was wrong. (mind you i didnt claim to have created you, if i created you and at the same time know exactly what you will do means i also created those actions in the process of creating you)

I wish you can read my post again and you'll know all but one hasn't been answered. As for the intelligent question in the bracket, you'll definitely have been right but for the fact that we were given freewill, removing the guilt from our Creator, who though knew the result of our creation, never was responsible for our actions.

Misogynist2014:
I wish you can read my post again and you'll know all but one hasn't been answered. As for the intelligent question in the bracket, you'll definitely have been right but for the fact that we were given freewill, removing the guilt from our Creator, who though knew the result of our creation, never was responsible for our actions.

none of them have been answered.. not even one, you just go on in contradicting circles..

Lol... Now check this out let me paint a clear picture.

[size=20] Before he created you, he already know exactly everything you will do. then knowing this he created you and all your actions already been known before you were even created that can never be wrong must go according to that fore-knowledge. You must do do exactly what he already fore-knew, going contrary to this will mean he was wrong but he cant be wrong... tell me where the freewill is here?[/size]

[size=20]He knew Adam and eve will eat the fruit even before he created them, how come he was surprised and angry they did?

If adam and eve didnt eat the fruit wouldnt it mean that his foreknowledge of them eating the fruit was wrong which means he was wrong but remember he cannot be wrong therefore they must eat the fruit.
[/size]

johnydon22:
none of them have been answered.. not even one, you just go on in contradicting circles..

Lol... Now check this out let me paint a clear picture.

[size=20] Before he created you, he already know exactly everything you will do. then knowing this he created you and all your actions already been known before you were even created that can never be wrong must go according to that fore-knowledge. You must do do exactly what he already fore-knew, going contrary to this will mean he was wrong but he cant be wrong... tell me where the freewill is here?[/size]

OK. It is like a man who knows Randy Orton is 42 years old, his friend then challenges him to betting his age, can he ever be wrong? Also, you have ten cubes numbered from 0 to 9, you misplaced the sixth one, can you ever be wrong if you find a cube and call it 6? All things being equal. It doesn't mean you made it so, it only means you have a perfect knowledge of it.

Misogynist2014:
OK. It is like a man who knows Randy Orton is 42 years old, his friend then challenges him to betting his age, can he ever be wrong?

This is not foreknowledge.. Randy orton was already 42 before you find out he was 42 and this cannot be likened to actions.. You could have said the man knew how exactly how many punches Randy would throw in a certain future match.

Misogynist2014:

Also, you have ten cubes numbered from 0 to 9, you misplaced the sixth one, can you ever be wrong if you find a cube and call it 6? All things being equal. It doesn't mean you made it so, it only means you have a perfect knowledge of it.

That you found another cube and call it 6 doesnt mean it is exactly the cube you misplaced.. Am wondering how you want to liken this to foreknoweldge

hmmmmm.... God is Almighty,Powerful and all Knowing. have you ever wondered if God had created mankind like Robbot having no free will of his own?
God created mankind giving it a free will that is the issue

johnydon22:
This is not foreknowledge.. Randy orton was already 42 before you find out he was 42 and this cannot be likened to actions.. You could have said the man knew how exactly how many punches Randy would throw in a certain future match.
That you found another cube and call it 6 doesnt mean it is exactly the cube you misplaced.. Am wondering how you want to liken this to foreknoweldge

I know they are not foreknowledge, I never meant them to be, but before you can have foreknowledge, you have to have perfect knowledge, that is what the illustration is all about. Now that the persons had perfect knowledge of things, their ability to predict the outcome was a 100%; a walk over.

Misogynist2014:
I know they are not foreknowledge, I never meant them to be, but before you can have foreknowledge, you have to have perfect knowledge, that is what the illustration is all about. Now that the persons had perfect knowledge of things, their ability to predict the outcome was a 100%; a walk over.

they didnt predict, they merely stated the obvious. ..

the question still lingers..

[size=20] If god know everything you will do before creating you how is there freewill seeing that the knowledge was already there even before you were created and the foreknowledge can never be wrong [/size] That sir is predestination..

johnydon22:

they didnt predict, they merely stated the obvious. ..

the question still lingers..

[size=20] If god know everything you will do before creating you how is there freewill seeing that the knowledge was already there even before you were created and the foreknowledge can never be wrong [/size] That sir is predestination..

They stated the obvious because they had perfect knowledge, that was exactly what YAHWEH (if indeed I am worthy putting down this holy and righteous NAME) did. Caso cerrado!

Misogynist2014:
They stated the obvious because they had perfect knowledge, that was exactly what YAHWEH (if indeed I am worthy putting down this holy and righteous NAME) did. Caso cerrado!

Lol they stated the obvious of what is not what is not..

But now this yahweh you claim know what is not already before it is... You now see the difference?

johnydon22:

Lol they stated the obvious of what is not what is not..

But now this is YAHWEH you claim know what is not already before it is... You now see the difference?

Pls, can I ask you a question?

Misogynist2014:
Pls, can I ask you a question?

by all means do..

johnydon22:

by all means do..

Do you base your thinking on proof?

Misogynist2014:
Do you base your thinking on proof?

Proof and plausibility and observable knowledge

johnydon22:
Proof and plausibility and observable knowledge

That is brilliant of you. What then is provable, Something from nothing or Nothing from something?

Misogynist2014:
That is brilliant of you. What then is provable, Something from nothing or Nothing from something?

And now since we are delving into a different issue all together i would like you to come out clearly and say what exactly you mean?

johnydon22:


And now since we are delving into a different issue all together i would like you to come out clearly and say what exactly you mean?

I actually wanted to catch you on the break, but you were wise enough to ask, so as to have PERFECT KNOWLEDGE of what we are delving into. Atheists claim that the world started from nothing, so there is no need for God, hence my question. Can I now have my answer?

Misogynist2014:
I actually wanted to catch you on the break, but you were wise enough to ask, so as to have PERFECT KNOWLEDGE of what we are delving into. Atheists claim that the world started from nothing, so there is no need for God, hence my question. Can I now have my answer?

Firstly i do not claim possess any knowledge of how the world started because i opened my eyes and saw the world.. Most atheist say "We dont know".

Now can you tell me what you mean by atheist say the world started from nothing? Throw more light to that statement.. I actually love this turn you have taken our discussion

johnydon22:


Firstly i do not claim possess any knowledge of how the world started because i opened my eyes and saw the world.. Most atheist say "We dont know".

Now can you tell me what you mean by atheist say the world started from nothing? Throw more light to that statement.. I actually love this turn you have taken our discussion

That's cumbersome, but let me quote you a post " Atheists argue that life popped out of nothing, therefore God is not needed in the
equation. They are quick at using M and B word. They say Earth is billions of years old
and man is millions of years old and evolved from tiny organisms. They have refused to
give us detailed reasons why it took so long and every process man took, if possible
catalyze the whole process, subsequently giving us a human being .
Let me use the experiment that Galileo Galilei used to stun the entire world of science;
the experiment that every object falls at same rate when air resistance is absent. To do
this, we have to pump out the air to give us a vacuum (though logic tells us the vacuum
is something, the absence of air molecules gives us a perfect example of nothing since
we are only concerned about the air molecules and its emptiness.)
Through this experiment, we see that for nothing(absence of air molecules) to exist,
something must have triggered it. What if we want to get our air molecules back(a very
important component of life itself)? Should we wait for a few days, months, years or
centuries for air molecules to pop out of nothing? A sane mind will realise that
something can't come out of nothing but nothing can come out of something. This proof
singlehandedly shows that the genesis of the 'faith' of atheists is shaky.
Since its now being proofed that life started from something and not nothing (even
nothing must come from something,) we can then try to highlight the properties and
characteristics this something must possess:
1) Must be called God because everything was created by him because without him was
anything made that was made.
2) He must be infinite because he is infinity, he came from infinity, therefore he has no
source, neither can he have an end because he is infinite.
3) He must be all powerful and infinitely intelligent. The works of his hands are sufficient
proof.
4) He must possess properties beyond normal, properties beyond our wisdom e.g an
invisible Spirit. People will wish to argue this one but Hebrews 11:3 says: Through faith,
we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that "things which are
seen are not made of things which do appear". This applies to everything in the universe,
including you and this knowledge is applied in the making of televisions and phones."

Misogynist2014:
That's cumbersome, but let me quote you a post " Atheists argue that life popped out of nothing, therefore God is not needed in the
equation. They are quick at using M and B word. They say Earth is billions of years old
and man is millions of years old and evolved from tiny organisms. They have refused to
give us detailed reasons why it took so long and every process man took, if possible
catalyze the whole process, subsequently giving us a human being .
Let me use the experiment that Galileo Galilei used to stun the entire world of science;
the experiment that every object falls at same rate when air resistance is absent. To do
this, we have to pump out the air to give us a vacuum (though logic tells us the vacuum
is something, the absence of air molecules gives us a perfect example of nothing since
we are only concerned about the air molecules and its emptiness.)
Through this experiment, we see that for nothing(absence of air molecules) to exist,
something must have triggered it. What if we want to get our air molecules back(a very
important component of life itself)? Should we wait for a few days, months, years or
centuries for air molecules to pop out of nothing? A sane mind will realise that
something can't come out of nothing but nothing can come out of something. This proof
singlehandedly shows that the genesis of the 'faith' of atheists is shaky.
Since its now being proofed that life started from something and not nothing (even
nothing must come from something,) we can then try to highlight the properties and
characteristics this something must possess:
1) Must be called God because everything was created by him because without him was
anything made that was made.
2) He must be infinite because he is infinity, he came from infinity, therefore he has no
source, neither can he have an end because he is infinite.
3) He must be all powerful and infinitely intelligent. The works of his hands are sufficient
proof.
4) He must possess properties beyond normal, properties beyond our wisdom e.g an
invisible Spirit. People will wish to argue this one but Hebrews 11:3 says: Through faith,
we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that "things which are
seen are not made of things which do appear". This applies to everything in the universe,
including you and this knowledge is applied in the making of televisions and phones."

Good those atheists aired their opinion, its theirs and none of my business. it has nothing to do with others who disbelief in Gods, so do not generalize their views and impose it on all atheists. Refer to that opinion as their own view. . atheists do not have one common doctrine, being an atheist doesnt mean believing big bang or evolution it only entails [size=20] Disbelief in God(s) [/size] . . . so that right there is their opinion most atheist just say "we dont know"

And you as a creationist actually is the one that have something in common with those atheist (something came out of nothing.) And i think you know how

johnydon22:
Good those atheists aired their opinion, its theirs and none of my business. . atheists do not have one common doctrine, being an atheist doesnt mean believing big bang or evolution it only entails [size=20] Disbelief in God(s) [/size] . . . so that right there is their opinion most atheist just say we dont know

anything else?

Whether you believe in God or not, the earth didn't jump from somewhere, it had a beginning, don't shy away from this.

P.S. I've just followed you, follow back.

Misogynist2014:
Whether you believe in God or not, the earth didn't jump from somewhere, it had a beginning, don't shy away from this.

P.S. I've just followed you, follow back.

First i have not argued with you that the earth popped out of nothing, i made my stance clear to you that "I do not know" or claim to know how the world or universe came to be.. "I opened my eyes and saw the world just like you did, so i dont claim to possess such knowledge..

You on the other hand still like those atheists you pointed out believes the earth popped out of nothing..

johnydon22:
First i have not argued with you that the earth popped out of nothing, i made my stance clear to you that "I do not know" or claim to know how the world or universe came to be.. "I opened my eyes and saw the world just like you did, so i dont claim to possess such knowledge..

You on the other hand still like those atheists you pointed out believes the earth popped out of nothing..

You won't run away from this. Did you come from something or Nothing?

Misogynist2014:
You won't run away from this. Did you come from something or Nothing?

Lol i came from my mother...

So funny that you are arguing against how the world came from nothing when you believe it did.. .. whats the difference between you and those atheist when you both believe the world came out of nothing?

johnydon22:


Lol i came from my mother...

So funny that you are arguing against how the world came from nothing when you believe it did..

That means you came from something. Why then do you claim the universe came from nothing? Why then do you argue the universe has no source (which MUST be called God)?

Misogynist2014:
That means you came from something. Why then do you claim the universe came from nothing? Why then do you argue the universe has no source (which MUST be called God)?

Lol it means you have not been reading my posts because if you have you would noticed when i said this

First i have not argued with you that the earth popped out of nothing, i
made my stance clear to you that "I do not know" or claim to know how
the world or universe came to be.. "I opened my eyes and saw the world
just like you did, so i dont claim to possess such knowledge..

and this

Firstly i do not claim possess any knowledge of how the world started
because i opened my eyes and saw the world.. Most atheist say "We
dont know".

These was my replies to you from the onset of our discussion, show me where i asserted the world popped out of nothing..
I need not remind you that fallacy is a big sin in an argument, so please desist from it bro, Don't attribute what i didnt say to me.
Or do you want to force me to accept your ideology that the world came out of nothing?

johnydon22:


Lol it means you have not been reading my posts because if you have you would noticed when i said this
Or do you want to force me to accept your ideology that the world came out of nothing?

Then it's not kinda right to be an atheist without having the fundamental and basic knowledge of your Faith (substance of things hoped for, evidence of things not seen). If then being a man who believes not in things without proof, I think then that it is right not to contradict your stance by remaining a theist till you have enough proof to back an earth from nothing (without GOD).

johnydon22:


Lol it means you have not been reading my posts because if you have you would noticed when i said this

and this
These was my replies to you from the onset of our discussion, show me where i asserted the world popped out of nothing..
I need not remind you that fallacy is a big sin in an argument, so please desist from it bro, Don't attribute what i didnt say to me.
Or do you want to force me to accept your ideology that the world came out of nothing?

Johny , I must say I admire ur intelligence so much ... Have been followin ur discussion from page 0 with that religious guy ! But ur points are very valid .

If God know that Adam and Eve would sin, then their freewil is tampered with . Exactly, and that will mean they are not different from programmed robots .

But if on the other hand , God have the power to know .. But use self - control (one of his vital attributes) from knowing such, then the freewill is not tampered with. (comp. Gen)

Misogynist2014:
Then it's not kinda right to be an atheist without having the fundamental and basic knowledge of your Faith (substance of things hoped for, evidence of things not seen). If then being a man who believes not in things without proof, I think then that it is right not to contradict your stance by remaining a theist till you have enough proof to back an earth from nothing (without GOD).

I am an atheist because i lack belief in any God. and thats the only thing atheism means nothing more..

Lol actually on the contrary, I maintain i do not know when i lack the knowledge but you believe that the world came to be out of nothing only that it comes in a more finer wear..

First your argument on first cause states that something can't come out of nothing. Very good.

But then again you believe your god just started existing on its own without needing to be created, that is failing in your own argument.

Let me say i agree with you that something can't come out of nothing, it means your god being existent on his own contradicts your argument. It must have a cause, another god i suppose and that other god must also have another god resulting in a chain of infinite regress. So you see you failed in your own argument by believing your god existed from nothing.

Secondly, As a creationist you believe the universe was created with words (is not material so its nothing) from this your god that still yet popped out of nothing.
He said the word and the universe magically popped out from nothing thereby you still failed in your own argument...

So now do you see the difference between you and i? You think the universe popped out from nothing (a word) said by a god that popped out of nothing (self existent) but i on the other hand say [size=20] I do not know how the universe started[/size]

CAPTIVATOR:


Johny , I must say I admire ur intelligence so much ... Have been followin ur discussion from page 0 with that religious guy ! But ur points are very valid .

If God know that Adam and Eve would sin, then their freewil is tampered with . Exactly, and that will mean they are not different from programmed robots .

But if on the other hand , God have the power to know .. But use self - control (one of his vital attributes) from knowing such, then the freewill is not tampered with. (comp. Gen)

makes a whole more sense to me