There are some who claim that it was built by Abraham to honor Allah.

The problem with this theory is that there is no historical evidence of Abraham ever having existed as described in the Bible/Torah/Koran.

There is evidence that the Kaaba was built prior to the foundation of Islam. There is more evidence that it was built to commemorate another god by the name of Hubal.

they said adam did... and that is where the biggest [size=20] lie [/size] of the plant began
.

mmsen:
There are some who claim that it was built by Abraham to honor Allah.
The problem with this theory is that there is no historical evidence of Abraham ever having existed as described in the Bible/Torah/Koran.
There is evidence that the Kaaba was built prior to the foundation of Islam. There is more evidence that it was built to commemorate another god by the name of Hubal.

Oh! An atheist thread. Good. That should be a refreshing interlude from those close-minded evangelical arguementators. At least atheists pride themselves on the use of reason, rather than cognitive disonance.

Now...

-What is the evidence that the Kaaba was built for Hubal's sake? (as per your final statement).

-What period do you percieve to be that of the 'commencement of Islam? (as per your penultimate statement).

-What do you think will serve as satisfactory 'evidence', that can be reasonably obtained?

johnydon22:
they said adam did... and that is where the biggest [size=20] lie [/size] of the plant began
.

Come on. I have told you before. Do not be a disgrace to atheists. Atheists claim to act only on REASON. You said something is a lie without having any proof of its being so. That was an emotional outburst, not a logical premise. Correct yourself please. Only we religious fellows are permitted such attitudes.

Abuamam:


Oh! An atheist thread. Good. That should be a refreshing interlude from those close-minded evangelical arguementators. At least atheists pride themselves on the use of reason, rather than cognitive disonance.

Now...

-What is the evidence that the Kaaba was built for Hubal's sake? (as per your final statement).

-What period do you percieve to be that of the 'commencement of Islam? (as per your penultimate statement).

-What do you think will serve as satisfactory 'evidence', that can be reasonably obtained?



Come on. I have told you before. Do not be a disgrace to atheists. Atheists claim to act only on REASON. You said something is a lie without having any proof of its being so. That was an emotional outburst, not a logical premise. Correct yourself please. Only we religious fellows are permitted such attitudes.

Before Muhammad appeared, the Kaaba was surrounded by 360 idols, and every Arab house had its god. Arabs also believed in jinn (subtle beings), and some vague divinity with many offspring. Among the major deities of the pre-Islamic era were al-Lat (“the Goddess”), worshiped in the shape of a square stone; al-Uzzah (“the Mighty”), a goddess identified with the morning star and worshiped as a thigh-bone-shaped slab of granite between al Talf and Mecca; Manat, the goddess of destiny, worshiped as a black stone on the road between Mecca and Medina; and the moon god, Hubal, whose worship was connected with the Black Stone of the Kaaba. The stones were said to have fallen from the sun, moon, stars, and planets and to represent cosmic forces. The so-called Black Stone (actually the color of burnt umber) that Muslims revere today is the same one that their forebears had worshiped well before Muhammad

In her book, Islam: A Short History, Karen Armstrong asserts that the Kaaba was at some point dedicated to Hubal, a Nabatean deity, and contained 360 idols that probably represented the days of the year. In Guillaume's translation of Ibn Ishaq, an early biographer of Muhammad, the Ka'aba itself was addressed using a feminine grammatical form.

Evidence would entail sources outside of the Koran, such as writings from Ptolemy (1st century CE) and others who preceded Mohammed (570 - 632 CE).

Lemme start here.

I know very well that Hubal is not Allah,

Okay good.

Hubal came before Allah

Can you please provide your prove.

and there is proof that the Kaaba was made for the purposes of Hubal.

Woww, please provide this prove.

The Kaaba was a pre-Islamic structure, how could it have been constructed for something that came much later?

I already told you on the other thread that it was built by Abraham.

Do you have outside verification (besides the Koran) that the Kaaba was constructed Abraham and that it was constructed for the benefit of Allah?

David made mention people performing pilgrimage as they pass through the valley of bakkah and to say that this is not the valley of bakkah of the Quran where pilgrimage is performed is really to career out of the common sense interpretation here, history knows of no other valley of bakkah which is associated with pilgrimage other than the one in Arabia.

Is there any historical evidence as to the existence of 'Abraham'?

And this is my problem with atheist.

Rilwayne001:
Lemme start here.



Okay good.


Can you please provide your prove.



Woww, please provide this prove.



I already told you on the other thread that it was built by Abraham.




David made mention people performing pilgrimage as they pass through the valley of bakkah and to say that this is not the valley of bakkah of the Quran where pilgrimage is performed is really to career out of the common sense interpretation here, history knows of no other valley of bakkah which is associated with pilgrimage other than the one in Arabia.



And this is my problem with atheist.

Was Abraham a Muslim?

How could he be a Muslim and a Jew, as claimed in the Bible/Torah?

Abuamam:



Come on. I have told you before. Do not be a disgrace to atheists. Atheists claim to act only on REASON. You said something is a lie without having any proof of its being so. That was an emotional outburst, not a logical premise. Correct yourself please. Only we religious fellows are permitted such attitudes.

instead of this yapping why dont u first go and check the historicity of adam before believing crap... every atheist here and many religious folks know adam to be mythical.. Tackle the issue at hand, if you cant dont quote me again please... Ur ad hominems are annoying..

mmsen:


Before Muhammad appeared, the Kaaba was surrounded by 360 idols, and every Arab house had its god. Arabs also believed in jinn (subtle beings), and some vague divinity with many offspring. Among the major deities of the pre-Islamic era were al-Lat (“the Goddess”), worshiped in the shape of a square stone; al-Uzzah (“the Mighty”), a goddess identified with the morning star and worshiped as a thigh-bone-shaped slab of granite between al Talf and Mecca; Manat, the goddess of destiny, worshiped as a black stone on the road between Mecca and Medina; and the moon god, Hubal, whose worship was connected with the Black Stone of the Kaaba. The stones were said to have fallen from the sun, moon, stars, and planets and to represent cosmic forces. The so-called Black Stone (actually the color of burnt umber) that Muslims revere today is the same one that their forebears had worshiped well before Muhammad

Evidence would entail sources outside of the Koran, such as writings from Ptolemy and others who preceded Mohammed.

All that you said above is correct. Muslim sources narrate that after Ibrahim (as) built the Kaaba along with his son Ismail (as); for the worship of a Single, Creator Entity, subsequent tribes and immigrants who moved into the area brought their own gods along with them. These later were installed in the Kaaba and its environs. The worship of the Creator as Allah remained as the Supreme Diety. The new gods were seen as intercessors or 'daughters' of Allah; Who was percieved to be too Mighty to be worshipped or asked for favours directly. The rites of Hajj initiated by Ibrahim and Ismail (as) were incorporated into the god worship. These were;
-The tawaf around the Kaaba; who the pagans knew as the house of Allah.
- The standing at Arafat for seeking Allah's forgiveness. It was narrated that this is where Adam and Hauwa (as) pleaded for Allah's forgiveness after their act of disobedience, and were subsequently forgiven. (No original sin in Islam, but I digress).
- The throwing of stones which were to commemorate the event where Satan appeared to Ibrahim (as) 3 times; to try to dissuade him from proceeding to build the Kaaba at Mecca.
- The sa'y between the 2 hills of asSafa and alMarwa which reminds us of how Hagar, the wife of Ibrahim, sought water for her son after her abandonment in the plains of Mecca.

All these events were well known and the pagan Arabs acknowledged them; long before the advent of the prophet Muhammad (saw).
Upon his re-entry into Mecca, he cleansed the Kaaba and its surroundings of idols and revived the worship of Allah the Supreme Creator alone.

This is what our sources say. Now why do you think they are untrue? Obviously, Ptolemy and other Roman/ Greek sources were not comprehensive and Arabia was never under Roman or Greek rule, so documents from such sources will not be possible. However, I would like to know why Muslim or pre-Islamic Arab historians are not authentic?

mmsen:

Was Abraham a Muslim?
How could he be a Muslim and a Jew, as claimed in the Bible/Torah?

Abraham was not a Jew. Not even the jews say he was. The name Jew 'Hebrew: Yehudi' is derived from the fourth son of Abraham's great grandson; Judah (Yehudah), son of Jacob. The laws associated with the Jews were said to be of much later origin... revealed to Moses.
You need to understand the exegesis of the word 'Muslim'. In Islam, it means one who has submitted his will and desires to the laws and dictates of the Almighty. Abraham was one such. So were all the prophets of Islam. Therefore, they are recognised as Muslims (submitters to God) and monotheists.

johnydon22:


instead of this yapping why dont u first go and check the historicity of adam before believing crap... every atheist here and many religious folks know adam to be mythical.. Tackle the issue at hand, if you cant dont quote me again please... Ur ad hominems are annoying..

Ok. Will not quote you again. Anyhow you keep insisting unsubstantiated statements like the one above. You insist on proof of every word everyone else makes and reserve the right to call it 'lies' without any evidence of your own. If I tell you I have ten naira in my pocket, you have no right to claim it is a lie unless you can prove it. My not showing you the ten naira does not mean that it is not in my pocket. Look at your statement...

'Every atheist here and many religious folks KNOW Adam to be mythical.'

Pray how did they arrive at such KNOWLEDGE. They have their beliefs, just as we do. They may not accept our evidence, but present none of theirs.

I promise not to quote you again.

mmsen:


Was Abraham a Muslim?

Yes

How could he be a Muslim and a Jew, as claimed in the Bible/Torah?

Whats your definition of "a muslim" and " a Jew"?

kaaba was a place of worship for the arabs before islam was invented, the muslims ransacked it, broke all the idols within it and turned it into an islamic centre.

Abuamam:


All that you said above is correct. Muslim sources narrate that after Ibrahim (as) built the Kaaba along with his son Ismail (as); for the worship of a Single, Creator Entity, subsequent tribes and immigrants who moved into the area brought their own gods along with them. These later were installed in the Kaaba and its environs. The worship of the Creator as Allah remained as the Supreme Diety. The new gods were seen as intercessors or 'daughters' of Allah; Who was percieved to be too Mighty to be worshipped or asked for favours directly. The rites of Hajj initiated by Ibrahim and Ismail (as) were incorporated into the god worship. These were;
-The tawaf around the Kaaba; who the pagans knew as the house of Allah.
- The standing at Arafat for seeking Allah's forgiveness. It was narrated that this is where Adam and Hauwa (as) pleaded for Allah's forgiveness after their act of disobedience, and were subsequently forgiven. (No original sin in Islam, but I digress).
- The throwing of stones which were to commemorate the event where Satan appeared to Ibrahim (as) 3 times; to try to dissuade him from proceeding to build the Kaaba at Mecca.
- The sa'y between the 2 hills of asSafa and alMarwa which reminds us of how Hagar, the wife of Ibrahim, sought water for her son after her abandonment in the plains of Mecca.

All these events were well known and the pagan Arabs acknowledged them; long before the advent of the prophet Muhammad (saw).
Upon his re-entry into Mecca, he cleansed the Kaaba and its surroundings of idols and revived the worship of Allah the Supreme Creator alone.

This is what our sources say. Now why do you think they are untrue? Obviously, Ptolemy and other Roman/ Greek sources were not comprehensive and Arabia was never under Roman or Greek rule, so documents from such sources will not be possible. However, I would like to know why Muslim or pre-Islamic Arab historians are not authentic?



Abraham was not a Jew. Not even the jews say he was. The name Jew 'Hebrew: Yehudi' is derived from the fourth son of Abraham's great grandson; Judah (Yehudah), son of Jacob. The laws associated with the Jews were said to be of much later origin... revealed to Moses.
You need to understand the exegesis of the word 'Muslim'. In Islam, it means one who has submitted his will and desires to the laws and dictates of the Almighty. Abraham was one such. So were all the prophets of Islam. Therefore, they are recognised as Muslims (submitters to God) and monotheists.

I have never said that Muslim/Arab sources are not authentic but what I do know is that there is a tendency by some people to physically destroy sources that do not match their own narrative - the Muslims are described as having cleansed the Kaaba of any earlier gods. We see it today with ISIS, we've seen it in the past with Muslims destroying icons in Egypt, Sudan and Iran. Does not the Koran make mention of the polytheistic Arab tribes in the region? We have evidence that tribes in the region had other gods and some of them were venerated at the Kaaba.

People from Greece and Rome would have traveled around the middle east, particularly traders who would have reported back - you do not have to be a ruler to visit and observe.

In Jewish tradition, Abraham is called Avraham Avinu (אברהם אבינו), "our father Abraham," signifying that he is both the biological progenitor of the Jews (including converts, according to Jewish tradition)

As far as I am aware there is no evidence of Abraham (as described in the Bible) ever having existed. As such there is no evidence that this same unproven Abraham built the Kaaba.

mmsen:


I have never said that Muslim/Arab sources are not authentic but what I do know is that there is a tendency by some people to physically destroy sources that do not match their own narative. We see it today with ISIS, we've seen it in the past with Muslims destroying icons in Egypt, Sudan and Iran.

In Jewish tradition, Abraham is called Avraham Avinu (אברהם אבינו), "our father Abraham," signifying that he is both the biological progenitor of the Jews (including converts, according to Jewish tradition)

ISIS and other past Muslims were not destroying historic sources for their historicity. They were destroying places that they felt could be; or already had been; turned to shrines, like tombs of famous scholars, or ancient relics that could be used for talisman purposes.

Jewish tradition does recognise him as their biological progenitor of the Hebrews through Isaac, Jacob and Judah, as well as that of the Arabs through Ishmael. They do not however, believe that he commenced the inception of the religion of Judaism. The laws of Judaism were brought by Moses... Abraham did not keep the law of Moses.

See this definition from the economist.

"Originally, the term Yehudi referred specifically to members of the tribe of Judah, as distinguished from the other tribes of Israel. However, after the death of King Solomon, the nation of Israel was split into two kingdoms: the kingdom of Judah and the kingdom of Israel (I Kings 12; II Chronicles 10). After that time, the word Yehudi could properly be used to describe anyone from the kingdom of Judah, which included the tribes of Judah, Benjamin and Levi, as well as scattered settlements from other tribes. The most obvious biblical example of this usage is in Esther 2:5, where Mordecai is referred to as both a Yehudi and a member of the tribe of Benjamin.

In the 6th century B.C.E., the kingdom of Israel was conquered by Assyria and the ten tribes were exiled from the land (II Kings 17), leaving only the tribes in the kingdom of Judah remaining to carry on Abraham's heritage. These people of the kingdom of Judah were generally known to themselves and to other nations as Yehudim (Jews), and that name continues to be used today.

In common speech, the word "Jew" is used to refer to all of the physical and spiritual descendants of Jacob/Israel, as well as to the patriarchs Abraham and Isaac and their wives, and the word "Judaism" is used to refer to their beliefs. Technically, this usage is inaccurate, just as it is technically inaccurate to use the word "Indian" to refer to the original inhabitants of the Americas. However, this technically inaccurate usage is common both within the Jewish community and outside of it"

Rilwayne001:


Yes



Whats your definition of "a muslim" and " a Jew"?

What makes you say that Abraham was a Muslim?

How could he follow the Quran without access to the Quran?

How could he follow Mohammed if he came before Mohammed?

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, known as the Patriarchs, are both the physical and spiritual ancestors of Judaism. They founded the religion now known as Judaism, and their descendants are the Jewish people. Of course, technically, it is incorrect to refer to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as Jews,
http://www.jewfaq.org/origins.htm

mmsen:


What makes you say that Abraham was a Muslim?

How could he follow the Quran without access to the Quran?

How could he follow Mohammed if he came before Mohammed?

You should answer this question first: Whats your definition of "a muslim" and " a Jew"?

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, known as the Patriarchs, are both the physical and spiritual ancestors of Judaism. They founded the religion now known as Judaism, and their descendants are the Jewish people. Of course, technically, it is incorrect to refer to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as Jews,
http://www.jewfaq.org/origins.htm

I hope you are not blind to see the bolded and the underlined

Rilwayne001:


You should answer this question first: Whats your definition of "a muslim" and " a Jew"?



I hope you are not blind to see the bolded and the underlined

Jews and Muslims self-identify, I would not tell someone what they are nor define them. The words are used so loosely.

Abraham is not referred to as a Muslim by anyone who is not Muslim - he is recognized more so as a Jewish icon than a Muslim. Alas, I take your point.

Again, how can he have been a Muslim?

Do you have proof of his existence?

mmsen:


What makes you say that Abraham was a Muslim?

How could he follow the Quran without access to the Quran?

How could he follow Mohammed if he came before Mohammed?

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, known as the Patriarchs, are both the physical and spiritual ancestors of Judaism. They founded the religion now known as Judaism, and their descendants are the Jewish people. Of course, technically, it is incorrect to refer to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as Jews,
http://www.jewfaq.org/origins.htm

'Muslim' does not mean follower of the Quran or of Muhammad (saw). It means a monotheist that has submitted to the will of Allah. It is your definition of the word 'Muslim' that holds back your understanding of its usage.

Abraham and other prophets were Muslim obeying their own God-given laws. Successive prophets brought the same broad message if monotheism, and submission to the Will of Allah. The prophet Muhammad (saw) in a hadith, stated that there were about 140,000 prophets through the ages; all monotheists (or Muslim if you like). Some came with modified laws. Some came as warners and reminders of older laws from previous prophets. The prophet Muhammad (saw) was just the latest of them all. He was only unique in the sense that he was to be the final prophet, so his message had to be protected from being corrupted as the messages before his were. Another unique quality was that all other prophets were sent specifically to their tribes or nations. The prophet Muhammad's (saw) message was to be universally applied.

mmsen:
There are some who claim that it was built by Abraham to honor Allah.

The problem with this theory is that there is no historical evidence of Abraham ever having existed as described in the Bible/Torah/Koran.

There is evidence that the Kaaba was built prior to the foundation of Islam. There is more evidence that it was built to commemorate another god by the name of Hubal.

It must have been built by the Meccan pagans based on this evidence:

https://www.nairaland.com/2253144/islam-among-arabs

Going by the biblical fable of Abraham. He was from the land of Ur in mesopotamia.. so taking from this fable Abraham is of Sumerian descent..

Abuamam:


'Muslim' does not mean follower of the Quran or of Muhammad (saw). It means a monotheist that has submitted to the will of Allah. It is your definition of the word 'Muslim' that holds back your understanding of its usage.

Abraham and other prophets were Muslim obeying their own God-given laws. Successive prophets brought the same broad message if monotheism, and submission to the Will of Allah. The prophet Muhammad (saw) in a hadith, stated that there were about 140,000 prophets through the ages; all monotheists (or Muslim if you like). Some came with modified laws. Some came as warners and reminders of older laws from previous prophets. The prophet Muhammad (saw) was just the latest of them all. He was only unique in the sense that he was to be the final prophet, so his message had to be protected from being corrupted as the messages before his were. Another unique quality was that all other prophets were sent specifically to their tribes or nations. The prophet Muhammad's (saw) message was to be universally applied.

I did not even attempt to define 'Muslim'.

Muslims believe the Quran is the word of Allah.

Do you believe that Allah is infallible? If so how is that he allowed his message to become corrupted and for his people to be lead astray?

mmsen:


I did not even attempt to define 'Muslim'.

Muslims believe the Quran is the word of Allah.

Do you believe that Allah is infallible? If so how is that he allowed his message to become corrupted and for his people to be lead astray?

Yes, but the majority of western-educated people who do not speak Arabic define Muslim as a follower of prophet Muhammad (saw). That was even implied in your question about Abraham (as). Muslim means anyone who submits to the Will of Allah and is monotheist. This includes Adam.

Yes. Muslims after the prophet Muhammad (saw) believe the Quran is the word of Allah. We also believe that other messages/ Books were sent with some of the other prophets (not all prophets though came with Scriptures). Over the times, these messages were corrupted and people incorporated sectional or personal interest themes into them, in order to give these themes Godly sanction. For this reason, Allah made the last Scripture (the Quran), incorruptible, by inculcating in the final set of Muslims, a tradition of memorising; partially or fully; the complete scripture by heart; by every Muslim man, woman or child; since the time it was revealed to the prophet Muhammad (saw). He also ensured the perpetuation of the Quran by mandating its recitation in every prayer, 5 times daily, and encouraging its complete recitation during the lunar month of Ramadhan... for 15centuries; by literally BILLIONS of Muslims. This assured its authenticity, since there was no total reliance on books or written documents that were exclusive to a specific class of people alone; and hence, easily corruptible. In addition, we have narrations about the prophet (saw), his life and sayings, which supplement our understanding of the Quran, to minimise false exegesis... each person giving his own understanding.

Yes, we believe Allah is infallible. The corruption of His earlier scriptures were by His permission. People were entrusted with the scriptures and they deliberately changed them, through the free will invested in them, in order to suit certain sectarian purpose. Many might have believed that their versions were superior to the original. Different versions and hearsay writings emerged and meanings and authors got lost in translations. All these events were permitted by Allah, since those Scriptures were meant for a specific time and place. Only the Quran was meant for all places and till the end of time, which is expected. Therefore it was kept intact and pure.

Abuamam:


Yes, but the majority of western-educated people who do not speak Arabic define Muslim as a follower of prophet Muhammad (saw). That was even implied in your question about Abraham (as). Muslim means anyone who submits to the Will of Allah and is monotheist. This includes Adam.

Yes. Muslims after the prophet Muhammad (saw) believe the Quran is the word of Allah. We also believe that other messages/ Books were sent with some of the other prophets (not all prophets though came with Scriptures). Over the times, these messages were corrupted and people incorporated sectional or personal interest themes into them, in order to give these themes Godly sanction. For this reason, Allah made the last Scripture (the Quran), incorruptible, by inculcating in the final set of Muslims, a tradition of memorising; partially or fully; the complete scripture by heart; by every Muslim man, woman or child; since the time it was revealed to the prophet Muhammad (saw). He also ensured the perpetuation of the Quran by mandating its recitation in every prayer, 5 times daily, and encouraging its complete recitation during the lunar month of Ramadhan... for 15centuries; by literally BILLIONS of Muslims. This assured its authenticity, since there was no total reliance on books or written documents that were exclusive to a specific class of people alone; and hence, easily corruptible. In addition, we have narrations about the prophet (saw), his life and sayings, which supplement our understanding of the Quran, to minimise false exegesis... each person giving his own understanding.

Yes, we believe Allah is infallible. The corruption of His earlier scriptures were by His permission. People were entrusted with the scriptures and they deliberately changed them, through the free will invested in them, in order to suit certain sectarian purpose. Many might have believed that their versions were superior to the original. Different versions and hearsay writings emerged and meanings and authors got lost in translations. All these events were permitted by Allah, since those Scriptures were meant for a specific time and place. Only the Quran was meant for all places and till the end of time, which is expected. Therefore it was kept intact and pure.

Yes, we believe Allah is infallible. The corruption of His earlier scriptures were by His permission

Anyway, we've moved far from the issue of the Kaaba and we still do not have any proof for the existence of Abraham.

mmsen:


Yes, we believe Allah is infallible. The corruption of His earlier scriptures were by His permission

Anyway, we've moved far from the issue of the Kaaba and we still do not have any proof for the existence of Abraham.

SOMEONE built the Kaaba. You have not disproved that his name was Abraham either. My sources are not acceptable to you; being the Quran, hadith and pre-Islamic poets/ historians narrated by later Muslims. If you insist on Ptolemy saying "Abraham father of Ismail from Mesopotamia built a Kaaba in a land called Mecca" , I do not know how to get such evidence. There are little or no writings on the Kaaba before the prophet (saw) by western historians. However, wikipedia provides some scanty info by non muslim historians. Not enough to satisfy you though, since they also quote Muslim sources... as expected.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaaba

Hun muslims and their insanity.

Abuamam:


SOMEONE built the Kaaba. You have not disproved that his name was Abraham either. My sources are not acceptable to you; being the Quran, hadith and pre-Islamic poets/ historians narrated by later Muslims. If you insist on Ptolemy saying "Abraham father of Ismail from Mesopotamia built a Kaaba in a land called Mecca" , I do not know how to get such evidence. There are little or no writings on the Kaaba before the prophet (saw) by western historians. However, wikipedia provides some scanty info by non muslim historians. Not enough to satisfy you though, since they also quote Muslim sources... as expected.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaaba

You want me to prove a negative?

I asked who built the Kaaba and I asked if anyone could prove that Abraham existed.

So far there is no evidence that Abraham existed.

mmsen:


You want me to prove a negative?

I asked who built the Kaaba and I asked if anyone could prove that Abraham existed.

So far there is no evidence that Abraham existed.

Who built the pyramids? Refer only to non-Egyptian evidence please.

Abuamam:


Who built the pyramids?

No one is claiming that Abraham built the pyramids or that they were built for the glory of Allah.

That is the difference.

If you said that you did not know I would accept that.

Abuamam:


Yes, but the majority of western-educated people who do not speak Arabic define Muslim as a follower of prophet Muhammad (saw). That was even implied in your question about Abraham (as). Muslim means anyone who submits to the Will of Allah and is monotheist. This includes Adam.

Yes. Muslims after the prophet Muhammad (saw) believe the Quran is the word of Allah. We also believe that other messages/ Books were sent with some of the other prophets (not all prophets though came with Scriptures). Over the times, these messages were corrupted and people incorporated sectional or personal interest themes into them, in order to give these themes Godly sanction. For this reason, Allah made the last Scripture (the Quran), incorruptible, by inculcating in the final set of Muslims, a tradition of memorising; partially or fully; the complete scripture by heart; by every Muslim man, woman or child; since the time it was revealed to the prophet Muhammad (saw). He also ensured the perpetuation of the Quran by mandating its recitation in every prayer, 5 times daily, and encouraging its complete recitation during the lunar month of Ramadhan... for 15centuries; by literally BILLIONS of Muslims. This assured its authenticity, since there was no total reliance on books or written documents that were exclusive to a specific class of people alone; and hence, easily corruptible. In addition, we have narrations about the prophet (saw), his life and sayings, which supplement our understanding of the Quran, to minimise false exegesis... each person giving his own understanding.

Yes, we believe Allah is infallible. The corruption of His earlier scriptures were by His permission. People were entrusted with the scriptures and they deliberately changed them, through the free will invested in them, in order to suit certain sectarian purpose. Many might have believed that their versions were superior to the original. Different versions and hearsay writings emerged and meanings and authors got lost in translations. All these events were permitted by Allah, since those Scriptures were meant for a specific time and place. Only the Quran was meant for all places and till the end of time, which is expected. Therefore it was kept intact and pure.

How could allah permit corruption of his word and still say:

Perfected is the
Word of thy Lord in truth and justice. There is naught (nothing) that can
change His words. He is the Hearer, the Knower (Quran 6:115).

Where did he permit the corruption as he said nothing can change his words? Muslims and their lies.

mmsen:


No one is claiming that Abraham built the pyramids or that they were built for the glory of Allah.

That is the difference.

If you said that you did not know I would accept that.

I know, because I have historical sources which you do not accept, because they have been passed down by Muslims. It was as well known in pre-Islamic Arabia as the stories of Alexander in Greek history. My mentioning the pyramids is just to show that you cannot limit my proof to only that which suits you.

It is like saying; "using only Grant's Anatomy textbook", prove that Buhari won the elections, because Grant's anatomy is the only book I trust."

BTW, I do not know where atheists get the belief that proving a negative is impossible. Proving a negative is in fact, the basis of all scientific research... the null hypothesis is always a negative. Negatives can be proven all the time. I can prove that Mmsen did not build the pyramids; a negative; because my grandfather recalls visiting the pyramids with his father. So, unless mmsen is at least the age of my great grandfather, he could not have built the pyramids. I also know that mmsen is not my great grandfather's age because my great grandfather would have been almost 200years old now had he been alive. No human lives that long. Conclusion mmsen did not build the pyramids. There.

Abuamam:


I know, because I have historical sources which you do not accept, because they have been passed down by Muslims. It was as well known in pre-Islamic Arabia as the stories of Alexander in Greek history. My mentioning the pyramids is just to show that you cannot limit my proof to only that which suits you.

It is like saying; "using only Grant's Anatomy textbook", prove that Buhari won the elections, because Grant's anatomy is the only book I trust."

Could you list your sources please for the Kaaba being built by Abraham.

Thanks.

Also sources that prove Abraham's existence.

mmsen:


Could you list your sources please for the Kaaba being built by Abraham.

Thanks.

Also sources that prove Abraham's existence.

Apart from the Quran and the hadith, speculative history is the best available. We are talking of a single person over 2000 years ago, at a time when there was no birth/ marriage/ death certificates; and in pure wilderness.

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/print/features/world/asia/israel/abraham-text

There are other speculations like it. But this sums it up. Also the traditions of historic Arabs passed down through generations.

Abuamam:



Apart from the Quran and the hadith, speculative history is the best available. We are talking of a single person over 2000 years ago, at a time when there was no birth/ marriage/ death certificates; and in pure wilderness.

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/print/features/world/asia/israel/abraham-text

There are other speculations like it. But this sums it up.

Yet when I asked scholars the question, "Was there ever a man called Abraham?" as often as not they were respectful (we can't disprove it) but convinced of the futility of trying to find a flesh-and-blood individual. "Abraham is beyond recovery," said Israel Finkelstein, a biblical archaeologist at Tel Aviv University. Without any proof of the patriarch's existence, the search for a historical Abraham is even more difficult than the search for a historical Jesus.

Another unproven historical figure but when all else fails the religious fall back on faith.

Why can they never say that they do not know?