From what I've read so far on this column and NL, atheists (if there ever was such) are not people who say there is no GOD but rather people who hate or are bearing serious hostility to God for one reason or the other or who are contemptuous against God and are seeking more reasons to do so. But all this wont be directed against a nought would it. Now for example when GEJ won 2011 elections, boko haram came out to say they dont recognise his govt that's because there was one which GEJ was to head(to atheists reading this, this is not to liken you to them, just an analogy) they made good their threat but it did not change the fact but rather proved that there was a govt in place. One of the atheists in Nigeria the late Tai Solarin became one (according to info I got) simply because God did not grant him a particular petition. Another pastor whose case was shown on NL, became an atheist because God had not given him the car of his choice and others on NL who accentuated the wounded pastor's new decision in their comments also alluded to the same problem of asking but not getting something. (Now even natural parents do not give their kids everything they ask for) etc. The aggressiveness, unleashing of harsh words (which should follow this topic:-)) and ruthless attack against any thing about God or the Bible only proves that These things are real others are more reserved but adamantly negative and would have nothing to do with God . It seems to me that the atheist is one who, having not had his way with God on some point or who, upon seeing something he did not understand in scripture etc had gone ahead to declare Him non existent. That's why they must needs remain in the religion section on NL else another section wont make much meaning because there'll be nothing much to say, no believer in God to bash with the vilest of hate speeches this being a vent for the bile of hatred they have for GOD. Inspite of the arguments they give, you can easily see that most of their premise, facts are one-sided and are obviously not an effort in searching but an activity in substantiating a predetermined conclusion. An objective search to prove the existence of God and the Bible being His Word viz a viz lives and death of true believers in church history (not the false prophet fruit rampant today) should satisfy an objective seeker. Well, God loves you still and will receive you if you will repent and surrender your lives to Christ.

If I showed you an atheist who uses harsh words against Allah or Sango or Zeus, would you concede to the existence of any of these Gods as the one true God?

Any harsh words you see are directed at your beliefs, not at an imaginary being. If someone truly believes that there is a God he can rant at, he will rant at that God the same way you pray to yours; privately and directly.

If indeed your focus of attack is the belief of others (though myriads of nairaland posts refutes this) , how do you separate a person's belief from the Person believed in? Why attack? Attacking presupposes the existence of an inner grudge or malicious intent. Quite similar to what the terrorists do when they attack those who dont believe what they believe (of course we all condemn this) only yours is on a mental level. And then what is your goal in attacking? Perhaps it gives vent to the inner grudge against God! Constant resorting to blasphemous statements is reminiscent of how some Nigerians resorted to using various derogatory names for the outgoing administration simply because they felt pained, and how some citizens the world over react to their Govt when they are not happy.The use of this analogy is because it's the secular example all can relate with. And if you'll be sincere, you'll agree with me that majority of atheists have focused on GOD not those ones you mentioned. Voltaire, Paine, etc never levelled their attacks against the other idols as far as I know. Even NL atheists are more against the Christian God. You see underlying all claims and 'proofs' is the same rebellion.

As an atheist I consider the person believed in to be non existent so there isn't anything to separate, there is just the belief.

There are many reasons to go on the offensive although not every atheist is interested in doing that. Most atheists consider religious belief to be unproductive. Some atheists want to burst a person's bubble, since most theists consider their beliefs untouchable and sacred. Practically all atheists find some of the myths and legends surrounding some religions hilarious. Its hard not to mock people who believe such stories. Some atheists want to repay theistic evangelism in its own coin. Some atheists use blasphemy to show that a deity is impotent and therefore non existent/improbable. The list goes on.

For my own part I've never taken christianity seriously, though I was born catholic. I don't know the God you say I'm angry at well enough to be anything at him. (I'm only referring to the God like it's a person for the purpose of discussion)

There are a lot of atheists dissing the Christian religion and God. While some supposed atheists are merely anti religious ex christians, there are some good reasons for what you notice. Christianity is the religion with the most followers. Its central deity is actually quite unpleasant if you don't make excuses for him. While Islam also has a large following and an unpleasant deity, it is far more perilous to apostatize in a muslim community than in a christian one. You can expect to hear more from atheists in Christian communities, who incidentally are more familiar with the Christian deity and can use that knowledge to make your encounter with them a more personal one.

You will agree that every religion has lost a member to atheism. That there are atheists who used to be members of one religion or the other is not a benefit to that religion.

If you get down to it, you'll see that the reasons for atheism are not limited in application. Christian, muslim, Jewish, Satanist, ATRist, Buddhist, Hinduist, etc, every deity gets the axe.

Hilarious! You are about becoming an atheist.

Let my start with that your analogy of boko haram. They claim not to RECOGNISE (not this word) the Jonathan government. That word means Jonathan government exist, but they chose not to acknowledge it. And the Jonathan government sent his boys (Nigerian army) after them to prove a point. Then this guys ran into the forest to protect their own lifes. They later came back fighting with that same government.

Atheists are not saying they don't recognise god, but that he doesn't exist. The word recognition from the dictionary means: "acknowledgement of the existence, validity, or legality of something". In other words, it exist, but you choose not bow to it. Let's assume the phrases "don't exist" is equal to "don't recognise", what has god done to prove his existence as Jonathan government did to boko haram? This same god is purported by the Bible, to cast fire on the people of the old, who never used cameras, that doubted his existence. Why has he not done that yet. What is his angel Michael doing?

People have different reasons for being an atheist. Personal life experiences helps reasonable people to draw analytical conclusions to general life phenomena. How else would you define life without your experiences. To understand life, you have to study it, and this is what scientists have been doing. The benefits of these studies is visible to all.

The attack was started by religious people in first instance. One would sit quietly, and then one person would come spitting to your face that: you go to hell for not believing in his religion that is only about 2000 years old. Children are forced to learn things that are of no benefit to them. This is what annoys some Atheists. Wasting your childhood learning fairy tales. People are blown up for not believing a certain type of Allah.

Christianity is at the centre of most atheist attacks, because most people have read the Bible. Most people know about the fairy tales in the book, and questioning it is very easy. The little most non-Muslims people know about the Quran is the physical barbaric actions perpetuated by its extreme adherents.

finofaya:

Practically all atheists find some of the myths and legends surrounding some religions hilarious. Its hard not to mock people who believe such stories. Some atheists use blasphemy to show that a deity is impotent and therefore non existent/improbable.

There are a lot of atheists dissing the Christian religion and God. While some supposed atheists are merely anti religious ex christians, there are some good reasons for what you notice. Its central deity is actually quite unpleasant if you don't make excuses for him.

But how do you dismiss the glaring reality of these 'stories and myths' when the names & places mentioned therein, occurences etc are still in existence today and the occurrences (backed by detailed genealogies) are clearly stated in the history of the nation concerned. We may call them stories but history attests to the fact that they actually occurred and all characters mentioned God inclusive are not fictitious. Prophecies and their obvious fulfilment in history, and in present times also stands as an able,eloquent defendant here. See these things are highly verifiable except if you choose to hold on to your atheistic stance sans evidence. Also, it will be strange to write off the testimony of myriads of people all through history down to contemporary times, of their experience with God. Concerning blasphemies and God's silence, even mature men know that you dont need to deal with every kid or nagging woman that calls your bluff,that will be an easy manipulative procedure. God's nature is such that HE gives you time to repent and will not reduce that time in a fit of rage.

And the issue of unpleasantness of God, well, note that choices come with a seed called consequence. We cant take one and reject the other. Why then would we blame another for the consequence of our choices? And will you say a judge is unpleasant if he sentences a defiant murderer to death? Or would you consider a leader unpleasant if, after repeated warnings, deals with offenders (this was one of the weakness of GEJ which made many opt for the seemingly incorruptible pres.-elect). When you talk of God being an unpleasant Deity it means you have chosen (your choice which only you can change) to close your eyes to His goodness and also the fact that those acts perceived to be acts of unpleasantness where simply the consequences of the actions of, and judgement deserved by those involved not without sufficient warnings and time to repent. Atheists do a lot of reasoning and I believe you need to apply the same mental process, with an unbiased mind to all these. Logic tells us that the conclusion should follow from the premise now most premises you alluded to are either 1. Personal opinions not subjected to a balanced literature review. (most unsafe because of its subjective nature) 2. Uninformed assumption (deliberately ignoring the objective testimony of history as regards these things). The afore statement points to a root cause - anger/bitterness against God and belief in Him. Reminiscent of how the council that sentenced Jesus to death had already passed their verdict but still sought for witnesses which Pilate, being objective, discerned was an action motivated by envy.

Scholar8200:
But how do you dismiss the glaring reality of these 'stories and myths' when the names & places mentioned therein, occurences etc are still in existence today and the occurrences (backed by detailed genealogies) are clearly stated in the history of the nation concerned. We may call them stories but history attests to the fact that they actually occurred and all characters mentioned God inclusive are not fictitious. Prophecies and their obvious fulfilment in history, and in present times also stands as an able,eloquent defendant here. See these things are highly verifiable except if you choose to hold on to your atheistic stance sans evidence. Also, it will be strange to write off the testimony of myriads of people all through history down to contemporary times, of their experience with God. Concerning blasphemies and God's silence, even mature men know that you dont need to deal with every kid or nagging woman that calls your bluff,that will be an easy manipulative procedure. God's nature is such that HE gives you time to repent and will not reduce that time in a fit of rage.

We are not disputing the existence of most of the locations. Naturally, most of the locations are on earth so there isn't much to dispute. However, if I told you that there is a 7 headed bull with a thermometer screening for Ebola at Abuja airport, the existence of Abuja airport would not in the least influence your skepticism. Its not the location that is the issue but the events that have been said to occur. As for genealogies, in addition to the fact that most religions have one, the Christian one lacks the vital detail of where Cain got a wife from. We can't place too much weight on genealogies.

When you say "history attests", do you mean "the Bible attests" or do you mean that there is independent verification of every word in the Bible?

Regarding prophecies, obviously the only thing for us to do here is to tediously list each prophecy you say has been fulfilled and determine the criteria for fulfilment to see if any one has indeed been fulfilled.

People have testified both for and against God. It's not about the number but the weight to attach to the testimony. Surely you don't expect me to believe in a God I haven't seen simply because you say you can see him.

The Christian God has been known to smite people for blasphemy.

And the issue of unpleasantness of God, well, note that choices come with a seed called consequence. We cant take one and reject the other. Why then would we blame another for the consequence of our choices? And will you say a judge is unpleasant if he sentences a defiant murderer to death? Or would you consider a leader unpleasant if, after repeated warnings, deals with offenders (this was one of the weakness of GEJ which made many opt for the seemingly incorruptible pres.-elect). When you talk of God being an unpleasant Deity it means you have chosen (your choice which only you can change) to close your eyes to His goodness and also the fact that those acts perceived to be acts of unpleasantness where simply the consequences of the actions of, and judgement deserved by those involved not without sufficient warnings and time to repent. Atheists do a lot of reasoning and I believe you need to apply the same mental process, with an unbiased mind to all these. Logic tells us that the conclusion should follow from the premise now most premises you alluded to are either 1. Personal opinions not subjected to a balanced literature review. (most unsafe because of its subjective nature) 2. Uninformed assumption (deliberately ignoring the objective testimony of history as regards these things). The afore statement points to a root cause - anger/bitterness against God and belief in Him. Reminiscent of how the council that sentenced Jesus to death had already passed their verdict but still sought for witnesses which Pilate, being objective, discerned was an action motivated by envy.

I won't start quoting bible verses here, but there are many instances where your God killed or punished people who did no wrong. You have the example of Job, the 42 children mauled by bears over a prophet, original sin, the killing of Jesus for the sins of man, the hardening of the heart of Pharaoh, turning Lots wife into salt, inciting the Israelites to commit what would qualify as war crimes today, and many more.

I don't really understand the last few lines of your post. They read like you just pulled them out of your ass.

The way I see it, you'd have better luck arguing for the existence of God from outside the confines of organised religion. This is because by rejecting the arguments and doctrines of every religion but your own, especially when those other religions are based on similar arguments as yours, you implicitly acknowledge that the arguments which underpin your religion are inconclusive. It's also easier to defend God if you don't go and start giving him a hot temper, huge ego, an obsession with the details of human life and other such personal traits which turn out to be dead weight.

finofaya:



Its not the location that is the issue but the events that have been said to occur. As for genealogies, in addition to the fact that most religions have one, the Christian one lacks the vital detail of where Cain got a wife from. We can't place too much weight on genealogies.

When you say "history attests", do you mean "the Bible attests" or do you mean that there is independent verification of every word in the Bible?

Regarding prophecies, obviously the only thing for us to do here is to tediously list each prophecy you say has been fulfilled and determine the criteria for fulfilment to see if any one has indeed been fulfilled.

People have testified both for and against God. It's not about the number but the weight to attach to the testimony. Surely you don't expect me to believe in a God I haven't seen simply because you say you can see him.


I don't really understand the last few lines of your post. They read like you just pulled them out of your ass.
.

First, thanks for the bolded however it's not best to resort to expletives simply because you dont understand something just like the issue at hand.
If you go through most genealogies, this is not to mean that there were no females born at such times. Else we should wonder where, Noah, Enoch etc got their wives from.
As regards the occurrences, if you care to, try a study on Jewish history and use any other book except the Bible. Saying history attests (referring to the events you find ridiculous) is my way of leaving out much biblical quotes since your mind is made up already.
Talking of prophecies, I would need your go ahead to list those since I am not sure your comment suggests that you want the list. Notify if I am wrong I will be glad to list them.
Yes, if I am the only one making claims then ignore such but if millions from history down to the contemporary times make similar claims what then?

finofaya:


The Christian God has been known to smite people for blasphemy.

I won't start quoting bible verses here, but there are many instances where your God killed or punished people who did no wrong. You have the example of Job, the 42 children mauled by bears over a prophet, original sin, the killing of Jesus for the sins of man, the hardening of the heart of Pharaoh, turning Lots wife into salt, inciting the Israelites to commit what would qualify as war crimes today, and many more.

It's also easier to defend God if you don't go and start giving him a hot temper, huge ego .

Well apart from Herod (who beheaded John the baptist and James and also took his brother's wife unjustly and whose cup of iniquity became full) who took the place of God, I cant recall the other 'people' smitten for blasphemy.

Job's testing (not punishment, even Job knew and confessed same Job 23:10) was the devil's activit. God's twofold restoration of all that was lost after the testing was over, clarifies this. Note that it's not all times God allows the devil to do such ,a good example is when Balaam wanted to curse Israel but God refused and nothing was done.

But the same Jesus said , ...I lay down my life that I might take it again, no man takes it from Me but I lay it down of Myself' (Isaiah, some centuries back, prophesied of His birth in Isaiah 7:14 and death in Isaiah 53) and that is why on the night of arrest, He pointed out that He could ask for and receive (from the Father) twelve legions of angels for His deliverance but for the former declaration and the prophecies He came to fulfil.

Apart from Pharaoh,there was no Bible character that God dealt with after that pattern, a close look at the prophecy God gave to Abraham about this, centuries before it took place, gives us a clue viz Genesis 15:16b, Pharaoh's period of grace had passed.

Lot's wife and son-in-laws were all warned and told what to do but they disobeyed. Did similar thing happen to Lot and his two daughters who obeyed?

The nation Israel was sent to destroy were iron cast in abominations (Deut. 18:12,10 etc) that will make an average man today shudder, just like those in Noah's day (note that Noah did more than build the ark quietly, God also made him and Enoch preach(2Peter 2:5, Jude 1:14) and warn the people of judgement if they didnt repent; just like Jonah was sent to warn Nineveh but they repented and judgement was halted) and I believe they had their chance too but they chose to rebel still (though some like Rahab who surrendered was spared).

As regards the bolded I wonder if One who (for example) will condescend to admonish an angry Cain Genesis 4:6,7 on the need to avoid malice and tell him what to do to be accepted, will be regarded as having 'huge ego'. Or how One Who, haven been repeatedly disregarded by man accept same (Ezekiel 33:11)when they repent, be of 'hot temper'?

theAtheist101:



The attack was started by religious people in first instance. One would sit quietly, and then one person would come spitting to your face that: you go to hell for not believing in his religion that is only about 2000 years old. Children are forced to learn things that are of no benefit to them. This is what annoys some Atheists. Wasting your childhood learning fairy tales. People are blown up for not believing a certain type of Allah.

Christianity is at the centre of most atheist attacks, because most people have read the Bible. Most people know about[b] the fairy tales in the book[/b], and questioning it is very easy. The little most non-Muslims people know about the Quran is the physical barbaric actions perpetuated by its extreme adherents.

I believe subsequent posts answer your allegation.

boring.

Scholar8200:
I believe subsequent posts answer your allegation.

It is very easy to claim different sorts of things and that is what the Bible does. Every mythology also ascribed magnificent things to its god, but you decided to stick with that of the Jews. All you have quoted are baseless, because you do not have fact for the occurrence of these events. The location of these events exist doesn't make them true. Read other mythologies to see the magnificent of human imagination. The Bible failings began with the wrong prediction of the earth's age. The same book claimed women had fewer ribs than men.

Let's assume the Jewish Bible is correct, who is god and who created him? Why didn't he give you his followers/sons the manual to life? Why is god not consistent in his dealings -- murdering anyone that crosses his path in the old testament and forgiving infinitely in the new age? Also answer the questions this man asked: https://www.nairaland.com/2253684/questions-gods-omniscients

theAtheist101:


It is very easy to claim different sorts of things and that is what the Bible does. Every mythology also ascribed magnificent things to its god, but you decided to stick with that of the Jews. All you have quoted are baseless, because you do not have fact for the occurrence of these events. The location of these events exist doesn't make them true. Read other mythologies to see the magnificent of human imagination. The Bible failings began with the wrong prediction of the earth's age. The same book claimed women had fewer ribs than men.

Let's assume the Jewish Bible is correct, who is god and who created him? Why didn't he give you his followers/sons the manual to life? Why is god not consistent in his dealings -- murdering anyone that crosses his path in the old testament and forgiving infinitely in the new age? Also answer the questions this man asked: https://www.nairaland.com/2253684/questions-gods-omniscients

Now, it would be nice if you could prove your version of the earth's correct age and then give the wrong age written in the Bible (quotes will help substantiate this) Yes the ages of men were given expressly but pls show me where that of the earth is. Women had fewer ribs? Number of women's ribs not shown in any Bible else show us that too( stated expressly) indeed nothing was said about that of men either.

Murdering anyone that crosses His path? Pls mention the people you have in mind who were not consistently warned. (we condemn human govt when public money thieves are not prosecuted and we wonder why God judges those who, inspite of warnings, remained adamant!)

Forgiving infinitely in New testament? The same God forgave a whole nation (Nineveh) that repented; forgave David when he repented; was willing to spare Sodom & Gomorrah if just 10 righteous people were found, there fiendish vileness notwithstanding; forgave king Ahab the murderer when he, realising his evil deed, repented; declared judgment on a Jezebel in Church who refused to repent (revelation 2:21,22, New testament); denounced hardened pharisees who by their covetousness, corrupted the truth Matthew 23 etc I can logically say this debunks your claim.

regards.

emrain:
boring.

emrain:
boring.

Spice it.

Scholar8200:
Now, it would be nice if you could prove your version of the earth's correct age and then give the wrong age written in the Bible (quotes will help substantiate this) Yes the ages of men were given expressly but pls show me where that of the earth is. Women had fewer ribs? Number of women's ribs not shown in any Bible else show us that too( stated expressly) indeed nothing was said about that of men either.

Murdering anyone that crosses His path? Pls mention the people you have in mind who were not consistently warned. (we condemn human govt when public money thieves are not prosecuted and we wonder why God judges those who, inspite of warnings, remained adamant!)

Forgiving infinitely in New testament? The same God forgave a whole nation (Nineveh) that repented; forgave David when he repented; was willing to spare Sodom & Gomorrah if just 10 righteous people were found, there fiendish vileness notwithstanding; forgave king Ahab the murderer when he, realising his evil deed, repented; declared judgment on a Jezebel in Church who refused to repent (revelation 2:21,22, New testament); denounced hardened pharisees who by their covetousness, corrupted the truth Matthew 23 etc I can logically say this debunks your claim.

regards.

Are those the only questions I asked? Answer the questions about god.

Scholar8200:
First, thanks for the bolded however it's not best to resort to expletives simply because you dont understand something just like the issue at hand.
If you go through most genealogies, this is not to mean that there were no females born at such times. Else we should wonder where, Noah, Enoch etc got their wives from.
As regards the occurrences, if you care to, try a study on Jewish history and use any other book except the Bible. Saying history attests (referring to the events you find ridiculous) is my way of leaving out much biblical quotes since your mind is made up already.
Talking of prophecies, I would need your go ahead to list those since I am not sure your comment suggests that you want the list. Notify if I am wrong I will be glad to list them.
Yes, if I am the only one making claims then ignore such but if millions from history down to the contemporary times make similar claims what then?

That wasn't an insult.

Of course it is not practical to list every prophecy ever. Why don't you list your best five?

There are more non Christians on the planet than there are Christians. What then? It's not about the number, mate. One problem with testimonies about God and his ways is that the experience being testified about is at best evidence of a spiritual being, not a creator. It is also usually neutral; the being experienced might be any of the Gods claimed to exist. Worst, the being testified about appears to be one that exists subjectively, since it seems to readily show itself to the witness but not to the jury.

Scholar8200:
Well apart from Herod (who beheaded John the baptist and James and also took his brother's wife unjustly and whose cup of iniquity became full) who took the place of God, I cant recall the other 'people' smitten for blasphemy.

Of course I don't agree with any of your interpretations, but I'll address two.

I don't think a man should ever be killed for another's crimes, willingly or otherwise. I don't know any legal system in the world that allows it either. Saying that Christ volunteered his life may make it sound better until you realise that you find suicide morally reprehensible. Suicide, however, is equally the exercise of one's right to end his life at his pleasure.

Similarly, you would be loathe to admit that ISIS are carrying out the justice of Allah by murdering every human in sight. I'd bet that you don't find their conduct disagreeable simply because you don't think that Allah exists. You also think their methods are extreme. It is however no different from what God asked the Israelites to do.

If you weren't trying so hard to justify everything your God did, you might have noticed this.

theAtheist101:

Let's assume the Jewish Bible is correct, who is god and who created him? Why didn't he give you his followers/sons the manual to life? Also answer the questions this man asked: https://www.nairaland.com/2253684/questions-gods-omniscients

The question on Who God is is not that which can be delineated in a single NL post. He is introduced in Genesis as the Creator and Sustainer. (let me stop here for now) God is not a creature but the Creator. Sorry what do you mean by manual of life? If it's what I'm thinking, there are things that are the exclusive preserve of any leader and no subject complains of that not being in order (except for the rebellious subjects), GOD has such too. As regards Omnipotence, realise that in life there are only two parts - Good and Evil. God knows the end of the Good because the same is designed by Him; He also knows the end of the evil because the devil's plans are not hid from God, finally He knows our hearts (the place of our affection and will whence thoughts that controls us spring) and by this knowledge knows what our thoughts and choices will be. For example after God had delivered Israel b4 Moses' departure, God had this to say: Deuteronomy 31:21b for I know their imagination which they go about , even now, before I have brought them into the land. In other words some Israelites were already toying with the idea of disobedience. God knows our hearts but does not control it against our will hence He admonishes and warns either personally or through others , "see I have set b4 you . . Life and good, and death and evil . . Therefore choose life that . . . You may live. The ultimate choice is ours but the consequences are also ours and if we've influence, it may affect them too for either options (leadership is a great responsibility).. And that is why the Bible says keep your heart with all diligence for out of it are the issues of life. Any sincere, unbiased question on God's omnipotence should be covered by this framework.

finofaya:

Why don't you list your best five?

since it seems to readily show itself to the witness but not to the jury.

Well you requested five: Daniel ch 8:20-22 prophesied the conquering of Medo- persian empire by the Grecian and this occured under Alexander the great, in fact the prophecy speaks of a rough goat which interestingly was the symbol of Alexander. It talks of 4 kingdoms arising after Alexander and even history attests to the fact that after his death, the kingdom was divided among his 4 lieutenants. 2. Daniel 8:23 &11:21-45 spoke proximately of the man Antiochus Epiphanes prophesied pls refer to any website that has his history. 3. Isaiah 7:14 described the Conception of Jesus which was fulfilled in Luke 1:26-35. 4. Genesis 15:13 God told Abraham of the Egyptian bondage of 400 years that took off after 30years of sojourn in Exodus 1 some centuries after. 5. Revelations 13:15-18 tells of the mark of the beast and if you'll google 666 today I'm sure you'll be inundated with info. Already, there is a subtle climaxing of technology in that direction. The emphasis is smaller devices now even a chip but it's now at the test running stage. Rather He reveals Himself to all that seek Him sincerely and objectively. You dont need to help Him reveal Himself i.e. assume or think this or that 'feeling' is Him.. When He does you will know Him.

finofaya:
Saying that Christ volunteered his life may make it sound better until you realise that you find suicide morally reprehensible. Suicide, however, is equally the exercise of one's right to end his life at his pleasure.

Similarly, you would be loathe to admit that ISIS are carrying out the justice of Allah by murdering every human in sight. It is however no different from what God asked the Israelites to do.
.

Jesus did not only lay down His life but He took it up again: He rose up from the grave, Seen by about 500 people one of which insisted on seeing the place where the spear entered and he was shown! Why? The requirement of GOD's judgement we all deserved had been satisfied and Jesus had no sin of His. Isaiah 53 The nations Israel was sent to destroy were peers with the people of the ante-deluvian period, in abominations and must have spurned warnings just as the former spurned warnings from Enoch and Noah. Note that it was an act of judgement and when Israel too fell into the same abominations, despising warnings from God, they got the same judgement from God through other nations. Surely not at par with terrorists claim e.g Babylon as 2 Chronicles 36:14-21 moreover all the . . . People transgressed much after all the abominations of the heathen. . . And the Lord sent to them (warning)by His messengers. . . because He had compassion on His people. . . But they mocked the messengers and despised His Words and misused His prophets . . . till there was no remedy. . . (there's always an effort to warn eg Jonah was sent to warn Nineveh - a heathen nation) This is unlike the terrorists who kill others while committing sins viler than that of their victims. It's bloodlust.

Scholar8200:
Now, it would be nice if you could prove your version of the earth's correct age and then give the wrong age written in the Bible (quotes will help substantiate this) Yes the ages of men were given expressly but pls show me where that of the earth is. Women had fewer ribs? Number of women's ribs not shown in any Bible else show us that too( stated expressly) indeed nothing was said about that of men either.

Murdering anyone that crosses His path? Pls mention the people you have in mind who were not consistently warned. (we condemn human govt when public money thieves are not prosecuted and we wonder why God judges those who, inspite of warnings, remained adamant!)

Forgiving infinitely in New testament? The same God forgave a whole nation (Nineveh) that repented; forgave David when he repented; was willing to spare Sodom & Gomorrah if just 10 righteous people were found, there fiendish vileness notwithstanding; forgave king Ahab the murderer when he, realising his evil deed, repented; declared judgment on a Jezebel in Church who refused to repent (revelation 2:21,22, New testament); denounced hardened pharisees who by their covetousness, corrupted the truth Matthew 23 etc I can logically say this debunks your claim.

regards.

The genealogies listed in Genesis chapters 5 and 11 provide the age at which Adam and his descendants each fathered the next generation in a successive ancestral line from Adam to Abraham. By determining where Abraham fits into history chronologically and adding up the ages provided in Genesis 5 and 11, it becomes apparent that the Bible teaches the earth to be about 6000 years old, give or take a few hundred years.

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/earth-age.html#ixzz3XKO0HgCD

In the creation of eve, the Jewish Bible stated that god took one of Adam's rib to form her. Definitely, Adam should be one short of that of eve.

Why did he forgive David, when he specially stated in his ten commandments that "though shall not kill"? This is one the few irrational things the Jewish Bible attributes to god.

Scholar8200:
The question on Who God is is not that which can be delineated in a single NL post. He is introduced in Genesis as the Creator and Sustainer. (let me stop here for now) God is not a creature but the Creator. Sorry what do you mean by manual of life? If it's what I'm thinking, there are things that are the exclusive preserve of any leader and no subject complains of that not being in order (except for the rebellious subjects), GOD has such too. As regards Omnipotence, realise that in life there are only two parts - Good and Evil. God knows the end of the Good because the same is designed by Him; He also knows the end of the evil because the devil's plans are not hid from God, finally He knows our hearts (the place of our affection and will whence thoughts that controls us spring) and by this knowledge knows what our thoughts and choices will be. For example after God had delivered Israel b4 Moses' departure, God had this to say: Deuteronomy 31:21b for I know their imagination which they go about , even now, before I have brought them into the land. In other words some Israelites were already toying with the idea of disobedience. God knows our hearts but does not control it against our will hence He admonishes and warns either personally or through others , "see I have set b4 you . . Life and good, and death and evil . . Therefore choose life that . . . You may live. The ultimate choice is ours but the consequences are also ours and if we've influence, it may affect them too for either options (leadership is a great responsibility).. And that is why the Bible says keep your heart with all diligence for out of it are the issues of life. Any sincere, unbiased question on God's omnipotence should be covered by this framework.

You have wasted the better part of this post explain what was never asked of you. I asked who is god, not what has god done? You just wrote what god is purported to have done in the Bible. How did the creator become a creator? Who created that creator?

Why did your god create good and evil? Why did he create a being he couldn't handle? Why didn't he get rid of devil? Why did he allow the devil in this ream of ours? I know you don't have an answer to theses questions, neither does the Jewish Bible that promotes this god. The easiest way to solve this problem is to think outside your Bible and that is what atheists do.

Scholar8200:
Well you requested five: Daniel ch 8:20-22 prophesied the conquering of Medo- persian empire by the Grecian and this occured under Alexander the great, in fact the prophecy speaks of a rough goat which interestingly was the symbol of Alexander. It talks of 4 kingdoms arising after Alexander and even history attests to the fact that after his death, the kingdom was divided among his 4 lieutenants. 2. Daniel 8:23 &11:21-45 spoke proximately of the man Antiochus Epiphanes prophesied pls refer to any website that has his history. 3. Isaiah 7:14 described the Conception of Jesus which was fulfilled in Luke 1:26-35. 4. Genesis 15:13 God told Abraham of the Egyptian bondage of 400 years that took off after 30years of sojourn in Exodus 1 some centuries after. 5. Revelations 13:15-18 tells of the mark of the beast and if you'll google 666 today I'm sure you'll be inundated with info. Already, there is a subtle climaxing of technology in that direction. The emphasis is smaller devices now even a chip but it's now at the test running stage. Rather He reveals Himself to all that seek Him sincerely and objectively. You dont need to help Him reveal Himself i.e. assume or think this or that 'feeling' is Him.. When He does you will know Him.

1. The prophecy doesn't have a time frame. After the death of Alexander, his Kingdom was split into various parts at various times. It was five, then it was four, then it was three and today it's just Greece. The Kingdom was not even split into 4 until 40 years after the death of Alexander. I expect the prophet to be specific about when exactly his prophecy would've come to pass, given that the period starting from the minute of Alexander's death up to present day is what is in question. Why pick one specific period 40 years after his death over AD 1921?

2. I'd appreciate it if you could specify what the prophecy is and how it came to fruition.

3. You don't expect me to believe that a virgin was impregnated by a spirit and she bore a son. Even at that, your messiah is not called "Emmanuel" in the NT. Perhaps this imprecision as to identity contributed to why Jews reject your messiah.

4. There is no evidence that the Israelites were ever enslaved in Egypt.

5. Carefully explain when and how this prophecy came to fruition.

Scholar8200:
Jesus did not only lay down His life but He took it up again: He rose up from the grave, Seen by about 500 people one of which insisted on seeing the place where the spear entered and he was shown! Why? The requirement of GOD's judgement we all deserved had been satisfied and Jesus had no sin of His. Isaiah 53 The nations Israel was sent to destroy were peers with the people of the ante-deluvian period, in abominations and must have spurned warnings just as the former spurned warnings from Enoch and Noah. Note that it was an act of judgement and when Israel too fell into the same abominations, despising warnings from God, they got the same judgement from God through other nations. Surely not at par with terrorists claim e.g Babylon as 2 Chronicles 36:14-21 moreover all the . . . People transgressed much after all the abominations of the heathen. . . And the Lord sent to them (warning)by His messengers. . . because He had compassion on His people. . . But they mocked the messengers and despised His Words and misused His prophets . . . till there was no remedy. . . (there's always an effort to warn eg Jonah was sent to warn Nineveh - a heathen nation) This is unlike the terrorists who kill others while committing sins viler than that of their victims. It's bloodlust.

I don't know how you can find any of this acceptable.

theAtheist101:


The genealogies listed in Genesis chapters 5 and 11 provide the age at which Adam and his descendants each fathered the next generation in a successive ancestral line from Adam to Abraham. By determining where Abraham fits into history chronologically and adding up the ages provided in Genesis 5 and 11, it becomes apparent that the Bible teaches the earth to be about 6000 years old, give or take a few hundred years.

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/earth-age.html#ixzz3XKO0HgCD

In the creation of eve, the Jewish Bible stated that god took one of Adam's rib to form her. Definitely, Adam should be one short of that of eve.

Why did he forgive David, when he specially stated in his ten commandments that "though shall not kill"? This is one the few irrational things the Jewish Bible attributes to god.

The earth existed before Adam's creation so that calculation may not be accurate.

This (Adam being short of one rib) is your assumption, bear in mind that it was not done by a surgeon.

Now you wonder why God (Who you see as being unpleasant) shows mercy to a truly repentant sinner? Because He is merciful and has no pleasure in the death of a sinner provided the latter will turn away(not just confess) from sins in repentance.

theAtheist101:


You have wasted the better part of this post explain what was never asked of you. I asked who is god, not what has god done? You just wrote what god is purported to have done in the Bible. How did the creator become a creator? Who created that creator?

Why did your god create good and evil? Why did he create a being he couldn't handle? Why didn't he get rid of devil? Why did he allow the devil in this ream of ours? I know you don't have an answer to theses questions, neither does the Jewish Bible that promotes this god. The easiest way to solve this problem is to think outside your Bible and that is what atheists do.

GOD is the Eternal,Self - Existent One. Well, you are right, I wont assume answers that are not in the Bible. also, thinking outside the Bible does not mean your hypothesis is correct.

But the devil has a beginning not as the devil but as an angel, perfect in beauty- But for the animals, all creatures have their choice, and I think God was fair by that. Hence submission to Him will be by personal choice and not compulsion. The devil desired God's glory and enlisted the help of some subordinate angels all of which were hurled out from Heaven. The devil has his time, that he runs amok now doesnt mean God cant handle him, even his subordinates continually pleaded with Jesus not to destroy them before the time Mark 1:24 Matthew 8:29. just like any other creature, he has no other realm while time lasts. his time is coming and that of all those who, like the angels he swayed, followed him in his rebellion.

finofaya:


1. The prophecy doesn't have a time frame. After the death of Alexander, his Kingdom was split into various parts at various times. It was five, then it was four, then it was three and today it's just Greece. The Kingdom was not even split into 4 until 40 years after the death of Alexander. I expect the prophet to be specific about when exactly his prophecy would've come to pass, given that the period starting from the minute of Alexander's death up to present day is what is in question. Why pick one specific period 40 years after his death over AD 1921?

2. I'd appreciate it if you could specify what the prophecy is and how it came to fruition.

3. You don't expect me to believe that a virgin was impregnated by a spirit and she bore a son. Even at that, your messiah is not called "Emmanuel" in the NT. Perhaps this imprecision as to identity contributed to why Jews reject your messiah.

4. There is no evidence that the Israelites were ever enslaved in Egypt.

5. Carefully explain when and how this prophecy came to fruition.

your response to No 1 already tells me not to bother for 2 & 5, you will most likely pick holes ( using principles that cant be correctly applied even in secular issues but are used here because they'll help for that purpose). 3.There are many Names pointing to the Messiah- Isaiah 9:6, Zechariah 3:8. 4. We cant rewrite the history of a Nation for them.It's good that the nation in question is still in existence and has this event and other miraculous ones in their history.. By the way, the occurrence happened more than two millenia ago before the advent of the AD calendar.

Scholar8200:
your response to No 1 already tells me not to bother for 2 & 5, you will most likely pick holes ( using principles that cant be correctly applied even in secular issues but are used here because they'll help for that purpose). 3.There are many Names pointing to the Messiah- Isaiah 9:6, Zechariah 3:8. 4. We cant rewrite the history of a Nation for them.It's good that the nation in question is still in existence and has this event and other miraculous ones in their history.. By the way, the occurrence happened more than two millenia ago before the advent of the AD calendar.

Our agreement was for me to pick holes. I think you should be more concerned that there are holes to be picked. What incorrect principles have I used? We should probably just agree to disagree at this point.

finofaya:


Our agreement was for me to pick holes. I think you should be more concerned that there are holes to be picked. What incorrect principles have I used? We should probably just agree to disagree at this point.

Alright, thanks for your time.

Scholar8200:


The earth existed before Adam's creation so that calculation may not be accurate.

This (Adam being short of one rib) is your assumption, bear in mind that it was not done by a surgeon.

Now you wonder why God (Who you see as being unpleasant) shows mercy to a truly repentant sinner? Because He is merciful and has no pleasure in the death of a sinner provided the latter will turn away(not just confess) from sins in repentance.

Why are you confusing yourself? God created everything in under six days, claims the Jewish Bible. Why wouldn't it be correct?

So how did he take Adam's rib? Your stated that he took one of Adam's ribs, when Adam was sleeping. So Adam should be one short of Eve's.

There are still so many erroneous statements stated in the Bible, but I just don't have time pointing them out.

And yet he hardens Pharaoh's heart? That is racism.

You need to sleep Scholar8200. All your mumbling is going nowhere.