The NT is regarded, both by the writers and Christians, as the word of God. That is, everthing written in the NT is inspired by God. So therefore if anything apparently and incontrovertibly invalidates their claim they are wrong and the NT is not God's word but man's handiwork.

Unfortunately for Christian theists there are lot of rebuttals to their claim, one of which is below.

There is a lot about the book of Enoch, but for issues concerning Christians and my post I'm going to post this summary from Wikipedia:

"Most Christian denominations and traditions may accept the Books of Enoch as having some historical or theological interest or significance, but they generally regard the Books of Enoch as non-canonical or non-inspired."

The catch is the book of Enoch is not the word of God, and thus the main reason for its non-existence in the Christian Bible. But what has this got to do with the invalidity of Christians' claims about the NT? It is the author of Jude, one of the writers of the NT. He made a "non-canonical or non-inspired" book his reference when writing to Christians about God's coming judgement.

"And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him." Jude 1:14.

He apparently quotes from Enoch 1:9, "the non-canonical or non-inspired book":

"And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His Saints To execute judgment upon all, And to destroy all the ungodly: And to convict all flesh Of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed, And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."

Since the Book of Enoch is not the word of God and is found in the NT, then the NT can't be the word of God but man's handiwork.

PEOPLE LIKE YOU HAVE COME AND GONE,THE BIBLE STILL REMANINED INTACT.

Toktee:
PEOPLE LIKE YOU HAVE COME AND GONE,THE BIBLE STILL REMANINED INTACT.

Of course, for delusional dummies.

Toktee:
PEOPLE LIKE YOU HAVE COME AND GONE,THE BIBLE STILL REMANINED INTACT.

the buybull remain what?pls go wash ur teeth
are u talking abt original buybull or todays one?pls reply

Op which faith do you belong to?

Pr0ton:


Of course, for delusional dummies.

what is this wahala about the bible not being God's word?! you leave naa! ShebI you say na for delusional dummies?! why are you loosing sleep over it! ..... or being delusional

tupem:
what is this wahala about the bible not being God's word?! you leave naa! ShebI you say na for delusional dummies?! why are you loosing sleep over it! ..... or being delusional

buybull don corrupt

tupem:
what is this wahala about the bible not being God's word?! you leave naa! ShebI you say na for delusional dummies?! why are you loosing sleep over it! ..... or being delusional

Do you agree that it's not God's word?

Pr0ton:


Of course, for delusional dummies.

as i said,only a fool said,there is no God.,and your death will be very miserably if you refuse to repent.

tupem:
what is this wahala about the bible not being God's word?! you leave naa! ShebI you say na for delusional dummies?! why are you loosing sleep over it! ..... or being delusional

leave the frustrated son of the devil.

Pr0ton:

Do you agree that it's not God's word?

you are on your own.

Toktee:
as i said,only a fool said,there is no God.,and your death will be very miserably if you refuse to repent.

Actually, only a fool alleges there is one.

Toktee:
leave the frustrated son of the devil.

Toktee:
you are on your own.

You can't even defend what you believe. Smh Dummy indeed.

What we don't know is when The Book of Enoch was written, who the author was, or what Jude was quoting. [b]The best I can tell, the Biblical figure Enoch was not the author, but rather, someone who lived closer to the time of Christ, or possibly even after, based on some of the references[/b]There are many arguments on all sides of this debate, but the real question in the back of many Christian minds is:

Is it Scripture?

Is this the Holy-Spirit inspired word of God? This is where we can pretty confidently say "no". If it were Scripture, we would expect it to be free of false doctrine. What we find instead is that false doctrine is one of the most prevalent themes in the book!

Taking a cursory look at the text up through Chapter 59, I found the following false doctrines. (I may be off on one here or there, but it should be sufficient to get my point across.)

1:1 Implies restoration during tribulation - not congruent with scriptures.

1:8 In conflict with the doctrine that peace was made at the cross. Also, in the last days tribulation will increase for the righteous - this "verse" seems to dispute that.

2:2-3 Appears to contradict 2 Pet 3:3-7

5:4 Is an admonition to some unknown party - this is very irregular relative to the scriptures (i.e. authentic ancient writings by God-fearing Jews) culled from christianity.stackexchange.com.

Indeed Enoch prophesied and in fact the very name of his son -Methuselah- was a prophecy of the deluge after the demise of Methuselah. However, the book was written by someone else who simply quoted Enoch's prophecy. Hence Jude's quoting the same prophecy does not in any way invalidate the NT Since:
1. The author only quoted Enoch but wrote other things different from Scripture.
2. We can count on the inspiration of the prophecy of a righteous man however I doubt if writing was an activity then!
3. There are many like heretical books today that also quote the Bible. This does not mean such books are inspired.
4. It is possible that Jude wrote that through direct inspiration else which book was quoted when reference was made to the conflict over the body of Moses? Note that no Israelite knew the burial place of Moses let alone the occurrences after his death.Jude 1:9
5. Since God revealed what was to come to the prophets of old, is it any big deal that He revealed those things that were past too moreso the very words He inspired?

Many eg Voltaire etc have tried to conquer, defame, refute the Bible but the Bible has continued long after they exited the world! Others who tried were rather conquered thereby eg Augustus,Finney etc. The choice is yours. Millions have found Christ through these same Word and have been transformed, many more are doing so on a daily basis.

Pr0ton:


Do you agree that it's not God's word?

guy! what is your concern about what I believe?! it is your believe that is up for takes here. you started the thread didn't you?! and my take on it was y loosing sleep over what you believe?! in Patience Ebele's voice "continu"

Pr0ton:




You can't even defend what you believe. Smh Dummy indeed.

i don't owned you any explaination,your case is beyond redemption.
Attention seeker,dnt expect to hear frm me again.

Pr0ton:
The NT is regarded, both by the writers and Christians, as the word of God. That is, everthing written in the NT is inspired by God. So therefore if anything apparently and incontrovertibly invalidates their claim they are wrong and the NT is not God's word but man's handiwork.

Unfortunately for Christian theists there are lot of rebuttals to their claim, one of which is below.

There is a lot about the book of Enoch, but for issues concerning Christians and my post I'm going to post this summary from Wikipedia:

"Most Christian denominations and traditions may accept the Books of Enoch as having some historical or theological interest or significance, but they generally regard the Books of Enoch as non-canonical or non-inspired."

The catch is the book of Enoch is not the word of God, and thus the main reason for its non-existence in the Christian Bible. But what has this got to do with the invalidity of Christians' claims about the NT? It is the author of Jude, one of the writers of the NT. He made a "non-canonical or non-inspired" book his reference when writing to Christians about God's coming judgement.

"And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him." Jude 1:14.

He apparently quotes from Enoch 1:9, "the non-canonical or non-inspired book":

"And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His Saints To execute judgment upon all, And to destroy all the ungodly: And to convict all flesh Of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed, And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."

Since the Book of Enoch is not the word of God and is found in the NT, then the NT can't be the word of God but man's handiwork.

your argument does not make sense proton, Enoch did not spend enough time on earth, God took him, and the reason is this, none of the people closer to him were righteous, if Enoch had write a book, who confirmed it? In the bible the messages of God were confirmed either by there servant or family members, Enoch live with ungodly men who would've have no interests in Enoch work. Christians believe the book of Enoch may be a sacred text.

read this thread, https://www.nairaland.com/2276353/since-ive-joined-nairalandwhat-ive

Scholar8200:
What we don't know is when The Book of Enoch was written, who the author was, or what Jude was quoting. [b]The best I can tell, the Biblical figure Enoch was not the author, but rather, someone who lived closer to the time of Christ, or possibly even after, based on some of the references[/b]There are many arguments on all sides of this debate,

Why doubt his historicity? We can safely conclude here that Jude believed Enoch to be a historical figure and the one who made the prophecy...

"And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied..."

but the real question in the back of many Christian minds is:

Is it Scripture?

Is this the Holy-Spirit inspired word of God? This is where we can pretty confidently say "no". If it were Scripture, we would expect it to be free of false doctrine. What we find instead is that false doctrine is one of the most prevalent themes in the book!

Taking a cursory look at the text up through Chapter 59, I found the following false doctrines. (I may be off on one here or there, but it should be sufficient to get my point across.)

1:1 Implies restoration during tribulation - not congruent with scriptures.

1:8 In conflict with the doctrine that peace was made at the cross. Also, in the last days tribulation will increase for the righteous - this "verse" seems to dispute that.

2:2-3 Appears to contradict 2 Pet 3:3-7

5:4 Is an admonition to some unknown party - this is very irregular relative to the scriptures (i.e. authentic ancient writings by God-fearing Jews) culled from christianity.stackexchange.com.

All the way.

Indeed Enoch prophesied and in fact the very name of his son -Methuselah- was a prophecy of the deluge after the demise of Methuselah. However, the book was written by someone else who simply quoted Enoch's prophecy. Hence Jude's quoting the same prophecy does not in any way invalidate the NT

Whether or not from Enoch himself, the prophecy is regarded as non-canonical or non-inspired.

Since:
1. The author only quoted Enoch but wrote other things different from Scripture.

Lol. This is somewhat funny. If the prophecy was not in line with "other different things he wrote from the Scripture", why did he quote it at all?

2. We can count on the inspiration of the prophecy of a righteous man however I doubt if writing was an activity then!

Even if the prophecy is non-inspired? Did you read what you pasted up there?

3. There are many like heretical books today that also quote the Bible. This does not mean such books are inspired.

Oh yeah. Never. But then the Bible should have greater reputation. Even if other non-inspired books quote from it, it, being divinely inspired, shouldn't quote from non-inspired ones, else, its claim of uniqueness tarnishes - it becomes like others, non-inspired.

4. It is possible that Jude wrote that through direct inspiration else which book was quoted when reference was made to the conflict over the body of Moses? Note that no Israelite knew the burial place of Moses let alone the occurrences after his death.Jude 1:9

You should compare the verses again. Jude 1:14-15 and Enoch 1:9.

5. Since God revealed what was to come to the prophets of old, is it any big deal that He revealed those things that were past too moreso the very words He inspired?

Are you saying the prophet of old i.e Enoch received his inspiration from God?

Many eg Voltaire etc have tried to conquer, defame, refute the Bible but the Bible has continued long after they exited the world! Others who tried were rather conquered thereby eg Augustus,Finney etc. The choice is yours. Millions have found Christ through these same Word and have been transformed, many more are doing so on a daily basis.

Just as others have succeeded and many others are de-converting.

malvisguy212:
your argument does not make sense proton, Enoch did not spend enough time on earth, God took him, and the reason is this, none of the people closer to him were righteous, if Enoch had write a book, who confirmed it? In the bible the messages of God were confirmed either by there servant or family members, Enoch live with ungodly men who would've have no interests in Enoch work. Christians believe the book of Enoch may be a sacred text.

read this thread, https://www.nairaland.com/2276353/since-ive-joined-nairalandwhat-ive

In sum what are you trying to say? Because I can't find any connection between the OP and your post, except for the one I guess... You mean the book is inspired?

tupem:
guy! what is your concern about what I believe?! it is your believe that is up for takes here. you started the thread didn't you?! and my take on it was y loosing sleep over what you believe?! in Patience Ebele's voice "continu"

Toktee:
i don't owned you any explaination,your case is beyond redemption.
Attention seeker,dnt expect to hear frm me again.

Bigots.

Toktee:
as i said,only a fool said,there is no God.,and your death will be very miserably if you refuse to repent.

Typical brainless zombies always respond to death threats when they are prodded to think.
And BTW,
Is death supposed to be pleasant for anyone?
If Jesus could die a miserable death, then what's the big deal about miserable death?

I wonder if being crushed to death in a church building constitutes a miserable or blissful death.

Pr0ton:


Why doubt his historicity? We can safely conclude here that Jude believed Enoch to be a historical figure and the one who made the prophecy...

"And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied..."

No doubt about Enoch's existence but the book in question was the reference.

Whether or not from Enoch himself, the prophecy is regarded as non-canonical or non-inspired.

The issue of non-inspiration relates to the book of Enoch, not Enoch's prophecy. That is why I said there are also heretical books that might quote scripture. This neither proves such books are inspired nor refutes the inspiration of the passage thus quoted.

Lol. This is somewhat funny. If the prophecy was not in line with "other different things he wrote from the Scripture", why did he quote it at all?

The 'he' you are referring to, is definitely not Jude but the writer of the book of Enoch.

Even if the prophecy is non-inspired? Did you read what you pasted up there?

Of course it was inspired. Enoch was a man that walked with God 2 Peter 1:21," Holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.". But anyone can quote an inspired prophecy in his literary work to gain acceptance among a larger audience even though he is peddling error.

Oh yeah. Never. But then the Bible should have greater reputation. Even if other non-inspired books quote from it, it, being divinely inspired, shouldn't quote from non-inspired ones, else, its claim of uniqueness tarnishes - it becomes like others, non-inspired.

2 Peter 1:21," Holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit." Enoch's prophecy spoken by Enoch, being a holy man of God in the ante-deluvian period, was inspired; the book of Enoch, written by another person who quoted Enoch's inspired prophecy, was not inspired. Hence the denominating of the book itself appears deceptive. Perhaps, the only words traceable to Enoch are the ones quoted while the rest of the book are the author's.

You should compare the verses again. Jude 1:14-15 and Enoch 1:9.

The very import of Methuselah's name is enough to preserve the prophecy down through the ages. Else, it is nothing for God who inspired Enoch, to inspire Jude through His Holy Spirit to write it exactly as it happened same applies to the case of Moses Jude 1:9

Are you saying the prophet of old i.e Enoch received his inspiration from God?

Yes. 2 Peter 1:21," Holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit." Once again note that Enoch did not write the book of Enoch it was written centuries later and apart from the prophecy quoted by the author, others were his. This is accentuated by the fact that the art of writing as it is known today was almost non-existent then.

Pr0ton:


Actually, only a fool alleges there is one.

only a frustrated , depressed , deluded and hopeless being will say there is no God because he has failed all roundly then decided to show his forsaking life on internet. Huh don't loose it shall well right, be patient.

plaetton:

Typical brainless zombies always respond to death threats when they are prodded to think.
And BTW,
Is death supposed to be pleasant for anyone?
If Jesus could die a miserable death, then what's the big deal about miserable death?

I wonder if being crushed to death in a church building constitutes a miserable or blissful death.

see there is free visa to iraq and a very handsome salary waiting for you there but when reach there tell the isis menber that you have better Idea of living peacefully on earth by denouncing there is no allah then wait for his respond.

jcross19:
see there is free visa to iraq and a very handsome salary waiting for you there but when reach there tell the isis menber that you have better Idea of living peacefully on earth by denouncing there is no allah then wait for his respond.

Another senseless post.

There must be something special about Sundays and the amount of senseless posters that come out.

mcheew

jcross19:
only a frustrated , depressed , deluded and hopeless being will say there is no God because he has failed all roundly then decided to show his forsaking life on internet. Huh don't loose it shall well right, be patient.

On the contrary sir.
I see and hear Christians of all shades shouting, crying, wailing and stomping their feet in prayers every single day, beseeching invisible skydaddy to please shown his presence, do a better job than what they are getting.

Praying 5 times a day is surest sign of frustration.
Going to church every day or every other day is a surest sign of frustration.
Going for SPECIAL PRAYERS ( ?) ( what is the difference between ordinary and special prayers?) is surest sign of frustration.

Christians feel so frustrated with skydaddy that they even offer him monetary bribes to for him to show that he exists and answer their prayers.

plaetton:


On the contrary sir.
I see and hear Christians of all shades shouting, crying, wailing and stomping their feet in prayers every single day, beseeching invisible skydaddy to please shown his presence, do a better job than what they are getting.

Praying 5 times a day is surest sign of frustration.
Going to church every day or every other day is a surest sign of frustration.
Going for SPECIAL PRAYERS ( ?) ( what is the difference between ordinary and special prayers?) is surest sign of frustration.

Christians feel so frustrated with skydaddy that they even offer him monetary bribes to for him to show that he exists and answer their prayers.

what posted show that you are frustrated soul and you don't know who to blame. I was in your shoe before until found joy in christ infact I was worst when I was a medical student well, relax it shall be well don't give up.

jcross19:
what posted show that you are frustrated soul and you don't know who to blame. I was in your shoe before until found joy in christ infact I was worst when I was a medical student well, relax it shall be well don't give up.

Lol.
I have neither seen nor heard of anyone who found real lasting joy in religious faith.
What Christians have is hope, largely based on the fear of the unknown.

Perhaps you explain to us the meaning of "special prayers" , and how it differs from ordinary prayers that you repeat , zombie like, five or more times everyday.

Anyone who looks daily to the empty sky for bailouts is still a child in life, incapable of facing the realities of human daily existence.