Any body that is in denial enough to suggest that islam despite all it's evil fruits from the time of demon possessed mohamad to date does not need to be reformed really needs to get his/her head examined. The so called religion is pure evil inspired by the devil and should not only be reformed but it should scrapped entirely and thrown. Into the dust bins of history.

Emusan:


So people never have this true knowledge of Islam since over 1000 years of Islam existence?

Are you telling me that even the Arabs where Islam itself originated from don't have this true knowledge?

The Quran is uncorruptible and was never lost. It was Muslims who neglected it, and the teachings of Islam..even Arabs; getting drowned in the man-made theories of 'democracy', 'communism' and 'socialism', and selling their souls for the wealth of this world... except for a few who retained their faith.
But recently, many more Muslims are becoming knowledgeable about the true tenets of Islam; which was suppressed under the era of colonisation and Arabisation. There is a strong Islamic revival under way. However, there are Muslims who have more enthusiasm than knowledge, and tend to be extreme in their view; while Islam teaches us to be moderate and wise in all dealings. With more access to standard Islamic educational facilities, we hope that such knowledge will be accessible to all Muslims from their youth, and so there will be less trend to act impulsively and more of a trend to wisdom and moderation as Islam preaches, and the recruitment pool of the ignorant extremists will gradually reduce, and their ideology gradually die down.

Some non-Muslim countries have already begun to see that violent opposition to Islamic extremists is actually counter productive, and are now seeking to better educate them Islamically, rather than fight them. So we are on the way insha Allah. The only reason why most xtians oppose this trend is because they find it impossible to convert the well-educated Muslims, and this will hit their pastors' pockets hard. Hence they want Muslims to remain ignorant, and to continue to point to the ignorant ones as 'true' Muslims so as to dupe the ignorant maajority...though of course, they will never admit that.

lanrexlan:
Much than you can ever think.

And this is hard for you to say

Do you know how many Muslims THAT were killed in Spain by crusaders for not accepting Christianity?

@underline-that's a lie, the crusades were not carried out FOR PEOPLE to accept Christianity BUT TO RE-CONQUERED Jerusalem and its territories which have been conquered by Islam. Muslims started it all. Just like what happened in Kaduna where Muslims have been killing Christians and the Christians rose up one day and start killing the Muslims back.

Mind you I didn't say the crusader didn't kill Muslims but my point here is THEY DIDN'T KILL THEM TO ACCEPT Christianity.

It is the people that needs reformation and not Islam. People need to get enlightened about what the scriptures say and not blind following what their leaders told them without verifying it.

Now if it's people who need reformation, isn't it the INTERPRETATION this people gave to Qur'an that needs to be reformed?

This makes your thread useless.

You don't change Islam to fit you, you can CHANGE yourself to fit into Islam.

The point is what Islam actually teaches that people need to change themselves to that Arabs Muslims didn't know?

Abuamam:
The Quran is uncorruptible and was never lost. It was Muslims who neglected it, and the teachings of Islam..

I always laugh at the way you reason sometimes, if MUSLIMS NEGLECTED QURAN how then was it preserved?

even Arabs; getting drowned in the man-made theories of 'democracy', 'communism' and 'socialism', and selling their souls for the wealth of this world... except for a few who retained their faith.

And you believe that when they drowned themselves in MAN-MADE this view was not incorporated into their book to make it more supportive.

But recently, many more Muslims are becoming knowledgeable about the true tenets of Islam; which was suppressed under the era of colonisation and Arabisation.

So what is the essence of this thread when some people have actually suppressed its tenets, which now called for open understanding?

There is a strong Islamic revival under way.

You called it REVIVAL but Christians called it REFORMATION which is let everybody understand CHRISTIANITY by themselves.

However, there are Muslims who have more enthusiasm than knowledge, and tend to be extreme in their view; while Islam teaches us to be moderate and wise in all dealings. With more access to standard Islamic educational facilities, we hope that such knowledge will be accessible to all Muslims from their youth, and so there will be less trend to act impulsively and more of a trend to wisdom and moderation as Islam preaches, and the recruitment pool of the ignorant extremists will gradually reduce, and their ideology gradually die down.

Well this is actually the reformation Islam needs with the view of civilization to see that era of Muhammad time has passed but now the need to follow the era of LOVE which Jesus preached has come.

Because from the foundation of Islam by Muhammad himself, followed by his successors till date killing has been part of Islam, why must it be like that? was it because Muhammad himself is enthusiasm and extreme or he's moderate in his dealings?

Some [size=14pt]non-Muslim countries[/size] have already begun to see that violent opposition to Islamic extremists is actually counter productive, and are now seeking to better educate them Islamically, rather than fight them. So we are on the way insha Allah. [size=14pt]The only reason why most xtians oppose[/size] this trend is because they find it impossible to convert the well-educated Muslims, and this will hit their pastors' pockets hard. Hence they want Muslims to remain ignorant, and to continue to point to the ignorant ones as 'true' Muslims so as to dupe the ignorant maajority...though of course, they will never admit that.

@bold 1-So these non-muslims countries are they Pagan or Christian?
@bold 2-I can see your problem with Christianity, yet Christians Missionaries always plant school any where they go including Muslims communities while Muslims never done 10% of such movement.
@underline-So what of those WELL EDUCATED Muslims (even know Qur'an & Hadith more than you) who have converted to Christians or Atheist?

Emusan:


I always laugh at the way you reason sometimes, if MUSLIMS NEGLECTED QURAN how then was it preserved?

Neglected in the sense that they refused to learn its teachings and were attracted by the glamour of the West who had colonised them.

Emusan:

And you believe that when they drowned themselves in MAN-MADE this view was not incorporated into their book to make it more supportive.

Which book? There have been books written by arab secularists, following the mindset of Attaturk and al Sisi, who called for reform and scrapping of Islam. Of course, they had followers in the Muslim world... but theyMuslim youth today, have largely seen through the lies of Western secularism and cut-throat capitalism. Hence the revival of Islamic teachings in their hearts. Unfortunately, the Islamic educational system was not ready for such a huge resurgence, so many of the youth, filled with enthusiasm, had no means of acquiring the proper knowledge, and some fell into the wrong hands of those who, in ignorance, they perceived to be heroes. But as more Muslims slowly develop true understanding, it will be harder for such people to find recruits.

Emusan:

So what is the essence of this thread when some people have actually suppressed its tenets, which now called for open understanding?



You called it REVIVAL but Christians called it REFORMATION which is let everybody understand CHRISTIANITY by themselves.

We are just discussing the issue. Actually, there is no question of a reformation to Islam. Islam is complete and perfect. Its tenets are established up to the Day of Judgement as the only way to God's Mercy and Forgiveness. It is how Muslims misinterprete Islamic sources to suit personal ideology that needs to be corrected. Islam is a religion of evidence and reason. It preaches justice and moderation in all aspects of life...according to numerous narrations of the prophet (saw).

Emusan:

Well this is actually the reformation Islam needs with the view of civilization to see that era of Muhammad time has passed but now the need to follow the era of LOVE which Jesus preached has come.

Because from the foundation of Islam by Muhammad himself, followed by his successors till date killing has been part of Islam, why must it be like that? was it because Muhammad himself is enthusiasm and extreme or he's moderate in his dealings?

The era of the Quran and the Sunnah is for ever, fighting exists because the devil will not rest until the only way to Allah's Mercy is closed. That is his only job... not as you xtians believe; to reduce your worldly wealth or block your wife's womb...etc. The devil has no interest in whether you die rich or poor, or childless; and he knows he has no power over all these anyway. The devil just wants you to follow him to hell, that is all. Having known that, Muslims have been given permission to defend their right to practice their faith. Some Muslims ignorantly go to extremes and fight for political or other reasons. Again, access to standard Islamic education will correct all these, insha Allah.

Emusan:

@bold 1-So these non-muslims countries are they Pagan or Christian?
@bold 2-I can see your problem with Christianity, yet Christians Missionaries always plant school any where they go including Muslims communities while Muslims never done 10% of such movement.
@underline-So what of those WELL EDUCATED Muslims (even know Qur'an & Hadith more than you) who have converted to Christians or Atheist?

Most of these countries are secular and detached from all forms of religion. Hence they are not blinded by the bigotry and hatred that xtians; especially evangelicals; seem to be full of.

I have no problem with xtianity. I was a xtian once. They have planted schools and hospitals, mostly the Catholics, at a period when Muslims were asleep and under colonial rule; with intention to win converts, and thereby benefited people in many ways, I readily admit that. But; to quote your Bible; what does it benefit man to gain the whole world and lose his soul?

As for Muslims that are more knowledgeable than myself becoming xtian, I doubt that such is possible. Of course, some so-called scholars do learn Islamic studies as a trade, and never imbibe the teachings of Islam, so do become atheists. But even I, with my limited knowledge, can never imagine becoming a xtian for any reason whatsoever. Is it vision where the devil appears to me as Jesus? Is it 'miracle' worked by every self-respecting babalawo; and which are more likely to be stage managed than not? Is it unverified stories of travelling from Lagos to Benin on empty tank, or a piece of pastor's chair that heals ebola and HIV? Come on.

Abuamam:
Neglected in the sense that they refused to learn its teachings and were attracted by the glamour of the West who had colonised them.

Try to help me understand something here, if actually this people left the teaching and tenets of Islam and ATTRACTED TO THE WESTERN who had colonized them, why are they still killing? Are western practice supported killing each other? Isn't it the same west that other religions live?

Which book? There have been books written by arab secularists, following the mindset of Attaturk and al Sisi, who called for reform and scrapping of Islam. Of course, they had followers in the Muslim world... [size=14pt]but they Muslim youth today, have largely seen through the lies of Western secularism and cut-throat capitalism.[/size] Hence the revival of Islamic teachings in their hearts. Unfortunately, the Islamic educational system was not ready for such a huge resurgence, [size=14pt]so many of the youth, filled with enthusiasm, had no means of acquiring the proper knowledge, and some fell into the wrong hands of those who, in ignorance, they perceived to be heroes.[/size] But as more Muslims slowly develop true understanding, it will be harder for such people to find recruits.

@bold 1-Is it the western secularism who put those verses into Qur'an?
@bold 2-Does Muhammad himself fill with enthusiasm or didn't acquire proper knowledge of Islam or fell into the wrong hands of anyone before he fought those war?
Do ALL Muhammad successors possess these weak attitudes before they conquered many places?

We are just discussing the issue. Actually, there is no question of a reformation to Islam. Islam is complete and perfect. Its tenets are established up to the Day of Judgement as the only way to God's Mercy and Forgiveness. [size=14pt]It is how Muslims misinterprete Islamic sources to suit personal ideology that needs to be corrected.[/size] Islam is a religion of evidence and reason. It preaches justice and moderation in all aspects of life...according to numerous narrations of the prophet (saw).

If the @bold is true, why the OP is talking about Christian reformation as if Christians change their Bible to suit today's world?

This is the point I'm making!

The era of the Quran and the Sunnah is for ever, [size=14pt]fighting exists[/size] because the devil will not rest until the only way to Allah's Mercy is closed. [size=14pt]That is his only job... not as you xtians believe; to reduce your worldly wealth or block your wife's womb...etc.[/size] The devil has no interest in whether you die rich or poor, or childless; and he knows he has no power over all these anyway. The devil just wants you to follow him to hell, that is all. Having known that, Muslims have been given permission to defend their right to practice their faith. Some Muslims ignorantly go to extremes and fight for political or other reasons. Again, access to standard Islamic education will correct all these, insha Allah.

Imaging this is coming from someone who think is knowledgeable than some people.

So Devil's only job is to fight! Devil's can't torment you either in the dream or physical, prevent you not to pray to Allah but can only make you to fight, no wonder Muhammad fought many war in his life time.

So that means Muhammad didn't access this STANDARD Islamic education too because History told me since the beginning of Islam Killing have been the other of the day.

If Muhammad nor any of his successors fought any WAR people can say truly something has went wrong somewhere i.e maybe these Muslims might have truly misinterpreted what Muhammad handed down to them but History proves this wrong because the way Muhammad killed that's how his successors killed.

Most of these countries are secular and detached from all forms of religion. Hence they are not blinded by the bigotry and hatred that xtians; especially evangelicals; seem to be full of.

List at least two of this western countries
Of course I know you'll use the word SECULAR but tell me any western country that is not Christian majority?

I have no problem with xtianity. I was a xtian once. [size=14pt]They have planted schools and hospitals, mostly the Catholics, at a period when Muslims were asleep and under colonial rule; with intention to win converts, and thereby benefited people in many ways, I readily admit that.[/size] But; to quote your Bible; what does it benefit man to gain the whole world and lose his soul?

You've no problem with Christian
You're once a Christians yet you believe some more KNOWLEDGEABLE people than you can't convert to Christianity?

@bold-But your initially claim was The only reason why most xtians oppose this trend is because they find it impossible to convert the well-educated Muslims,

Can you see the contradiction?

[size=14pt]As for Muslims that are more knowledgeable than myself becoming xtian, I doubt that such is possible.[/size] Of course, some so-called scholars do learn Islamic studies as a trade, [size=14pt]and never imbibe the teachings of Islam, so do become atheists.[/size] But even I, with my limited knowledge, can never imagine becoming a xtian for any reason whatsoever. Is it vision where the devil appears to me as Jesus? Is it 'miracle' worked by every self-respecting babalawo; and which are more likely to be stage managed than not? Is it unverified stories of travelling from Lagos to Benin on empty tank, or a piece of pastor's chair that heals ebola and HIV? Come on.

Anyone reading this your post can see that there's no element of TRUTH in you.

It's evident that you know Jesus still reveals Himself to people has He promised in the Holy Bible "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." John 14:21 NKJV but you decided to call this wonderful encounter with Jesus as Devil's encounter.

NOTICE how many times the word LOVE appeared in that verse. Remember some Muslims do say WE LOVE Jesus more than Christians do but the truth is those Muslims who actually profess this statement wholeheartedly are the one Jesus truly revealed Himself to.

How will you believe in miracles when Muhammad never perform any?

It still beats my imagination how any right thinking person having studied the history of islam and it's pathetic criminally prophet can accept the vile religion he invented as one from the true God. The only plausible explanation is that mohamad was inspired by Satan as a means to get people to worship him through deceit and lead them to hell.

Emusan:


Try to help me understand something here, if actually this people left the teaching and tenets of Islam and ATTRACTED TO THE WESTERN who had colonized them, why are they still killing? Are western practice supported killing each other? Isn't it the same west that other religions live?

Please read the explanation through. You have totally missed my point.

Emusan:

@bold 1-Is it the western secularism who put those verses into Qur'an?
@bold 2-Does Muhammad himself fill with enthusiasm or didn't acquire proper knowledge of Islam or fell into the wrong hands of anyone before he fought those war?
Do ALL Muhammad successors possess these weak attitudes before they conquered many places?

The prophet (saw) fought to defend Islam from its opponents. They drove him out from his home, tortured his followers, stole thwir possessions, still pursued them to where they were taking refuge in Abissinya and Medinah, connived with other pagans as well as Jews to destroy the Muslims, yet you blame him for fighting back? Ad one western orientalist says; the biggest grouse xtians have against Muhammad is that he did not give himself up for crucifiction. Islam never pretended to be an ingratiating religion. True Muslims do not oppress; and do not allow themselves to be oppressed either... justice is both ways.

Emusan:

If the @bold is true, why the OP is talking about Christian reformation as if Christians change their Bible to suit today's world?

This is the point I'm making!

Perhaps you would need to direct your question to the op. However, I would venture to guess that he is referring to the fact that the scriptures that were accepted as 'holy', did not remain consistent over time. Martin Luther did not accept the Catholic version of the canon in entirety after the reformation. Even today, the Catholic Bible contains 7 whole chapters not accepted by protestants or pentecostals. This means that the Bible WAS changed.

Emusan:

Imaging this is coming from someone who think is knowledgeable than some people.

In all truth, I do not think that. The more you learn, the more you realise just how little you know.

Emusan:

So Devil's only job is to fight! Devil's can't torment you either in the dream or physical, prevent you not to pray to Allah but can only make you to fight, no wonder Muhammad fought many war in his life time.

So that means Muhammad didn't access this STANDARD Islamic education too because History told me since the beginning of Islam Killing have been the other of the day.

If Muhammad nor any of his successors fought any WAR people can say truly something has went wrong somewhere i.e maybe these Muslims might have truly misinterpreted what Muhammad handed down to them but History proves this wrong because the way Muhammad killed that's how his successors killed.

No. The devil does not cause fights directly. Rather, he tries to eliminate Islam by creating internal discord and misunderstandings; as well as inciting unbelievers to fight Muslims.

Emusan:

List at least two of this western countries
Of course I know you'll use the word SECULAR but tell me any western country that is not Christian majority?

Xtians differ. Many pay lip service to xtianity, or just write it on a foem as a matter of habit. It is no secret that churches in the West are emptying. In Europe, evangelicals are seen as oddballs. It is you who point to the fact that the West is now secular, when we point to spreading homosexuality, fornication, gambling and military campaigns all over the globe. Yet you rush in to claim them as xtians when they invent some new technology or behave in a manner pleasing to you. Make up your mind already.

Emusan:

You've no problem with Christian
You're once a Christians yet you believe some more KNOWLEDGEABLE people than you can't convert to Christianity?

@bold-But your initially claim was The only reason why most xtians oppose this trend is because they find it impossible to convert the well-educated Muslims,

Can you see the contradiction?

Again you deliberately misunderstand. The catholic and other xtian missionaries did not permit standard Islamic studies in their schools. They imposed subjects like philosophy, and European history, to drive a wedge between the Muslim youth and their Islamic heritage. The trend to educate Muslims in their religion is what xtians oppose. This is because they are impossible to convert. The ability to reason and the strength of faith through knowledge is very inimical to conversion through 'signs and wonders' and other forms of play on emotions.

Emusan:

Anyone reading this your post can see that there's no element of TRUTH in you.

It's evident that you know Jesus still reveals Himself to people has He promised in the Holy Bible "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." John 14:21 NKJV but you decided to call this wonderful encounter with Jesus as Devil's encounter.

NOTICE how many times the word LOVE appeared in that verse. Remember some Muslims do say WE LOVE Jesus more than Christians do but the truth is those Muslims who actually profess this statement wholeheartedly are the one Jesus truly revealed Himself to.

How will you believe in miracles when Muhammad never perform any?

The devil has been playing around with your Bible for centuries. It suits him to have you believe that Jesus 'manifests himself' to you, since that opens a door to the devil to put his own inspirations into you, under the guise of being Jesus... using this verse as proof. How many atrocities have pastors committed under the guise of commands from a 'manifestation' of Jesus or the 'holy spirit'? From impregnating parishioner's wives and daughters, to burning 'witches' out of little kids, to dispensing petrol as pineapple juice and grass as cake, to lining up bare naked spinsters and committing atrocities on them in public. The common thread...either Jesus or the Holy spirit told them to. Common sense and morals leads us to believe that the devil told them to, regardless of what they think. And if the devil can appear to them, why not to you? Perhaps the message given to you is more subtly evil than impregnating twenty parishioners wives.

The prophet Muhammad (saw) actually performed more miracles than Jesus according to extant sources, and taking the NT as authentic for the sake of argument. From feeding the multitudes, to producing water, to healing the sick, to driving out demons. I actually have a book titled; 'the one thousand and one miracles of the messenger of Allah'. We just do not boast of them because they were a sign for those who were there. The Quran is our miracle for us today. Having said that, please tell me how many miracles did the prophet Abraham perform in your Bible? Does this decrease his status as a prophet?

Besides, does your Bible not say that only an evil and adulterous generation seeks for signs? What does that make you evangelicals/ pentecostals that are signs and wonders junkies?

Abuamam:
Please read the explanation through. You have totally missed my point.

Your own is to point out where I've missed your points.

The prophet (saw) fought to defend Islam from its opponents. They drove him out from his home, tortured his followers, stole thwir possessions, still pursued them to where they were taking refuge in Abissinya and Medinah, connived with other pagans as well as Jews to destroy the Muslims, yet you blame him for fighting back? Ad one western orientalist says; the biggest grouse xtians have against Muhammad is that he did not give himself up for crucifiction. Islam never pretended to be an ingratiating religion. True Muslims do not oppress; and do not allow themselves to be oppressed either... justice is both ways.

So if Muhammad fought back because of what they did to him, what do you want disciples of Jesus who were humiliated and some crucified to do? AND what they did to Jesus' disciples/early Christians far worst than anything ever done to Muhammad, so why must he fight back?

If Muhammad fought because of what they did to him, his ALL his successors/followers do the same?

Baseless excuse...since you're not a believer of Bible I know you might say Jesus' disciple weren't humiliated.

Perhaps you would need to direct your question to the op. However, I would venture to guess that he is referring to the fact that the scriptures that were accepted as 'holy', did not remain consistent over time. Martin Luther did not accept the Catholic version of the canon in entirety after the reformation. Even today, the Catholic Bible contains 7 whole chapters not accepted by protestants or pentecostals. [size=14pt]This means that the Bible WAS changed.[/size]

@bold-if that's the case that means Qur'an has also been change, "Muhammad once told his followers to “Learn the recitation of the Qur’an from four: from Abdullah bin Masud—he started with him—Salim, the freed slave of Abu Hudhaifa, Mu’adh bin Jabal and Ubai bin Ka’b” (Sahih al-Bukhari 3808). Interestingly, [size=14pt]Ibn Masud (first on Muhammad’s list) held that the Qur’an should only have 111 chapters (today’s version has 114 chapters), and that chapters 1, 113, and 114 shouldn’t have been included in the Qur’an.[/size]

Because of this (along with hundreds of other textual differences), Ibn Masud went so far as to call the final edition of the Qur’an a deception! He said, “The people have been guilty of deceit in the reading of the Qur’an. I like it better to read according to the recitation of him [i.e. Muhammad] whom I love more than that of Zayd Ibn Thabit” (Ibn Sa’d, Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir, Vol. 2, p. 444).

So using this line to attack the Holy Bible is meaningless.

In all truth, I do not think that. The more you learn, the more you realise just how little you know.

Then what is the point of thinking that a well educated Muslims can't convert to Christianity?

[size=14pt]No. The devil does not cause fights directly. Rather, he tries to eliminate Islam by creating internal discord and misunderstandings; as well as inciting unbelievers to fight Muslims.[/size]

Your first statement was "...fighting exists because the devil will not rest until the only way to Allah's Mercy is closed. That is his only job..."

But Devil can create internal discord and misunderstanding...so if Devil can do these why do you think Devil can't cause someone's life to be poor? as you accuse Christian believe the other time.

[quote]Xtians differ. Many pay lip service to xtianity, or just write it on a foem as a matter of habit. [size=14pt]It is no secret that churches in the West are emptying.[/size] In Europe, evangelicals are seen as oddballs. It is you who point to the fact that the [size=14pt]West is now secular,[/size] when we point to spreading homosexuality, fornication, gambling and military campaigns all over the globe. Yet you rush in to claim them as xtians when they invent some new technology or behave in a manner pleasing to you. Make up your mind already.

The @bold is funny, so as Churches in west get empty Mosques are getting FULL, right
@bold 2-So if west are NOW becoming secular does that mean Islam is the biggest populated religion in the west?
We are not talking of who invent or not my POINT HERE IS VERY CLEAR your claim was "...Some non-Muslim countries have already begun to see that violent opposition to Islamic extremists is actually counter productive, and are now seeking to better educate them Islamically, rather than fight them..." I then asked for this NON-MUSLIMS COUNTRIES that are now doing this GREAT WORK OF ELEVATING these brainwashed Muslims from killing to a well educated ones. You refer to WESTERN and I then asked LIST TWO OF THESE WESTERN COUNTRIES. You started talking another thing.

Again you deliberately misunderstand. [size=14pt]The catholic and other xtian missionaries did not permit standard Islamic studies in their schools.[/size] They imposed subjects like philosophy, and European history, to drive a wedge between the Muslim youth and their Islamic heritage. [size=14pt]The trend to educate Muslims in their religion is what xtians oppose.[/size] This is because they are impossible to convert. The ability to reason and the strength of faith through knowledge is very inimical to conversion through 'signs and wonders' and other forms of play on emotions.

So if west are doing this to Islam ALONE what of ARAB where Islam ORIGINATED FROM?
Do the ARAB deprive their Children of gaining well Islamic education so that they can support west too?
Now your problem is on Christian but forgotten that both Christians and Muslims live in the same world.

The last @bold got me crack my ribs, so it's Christian that suppose to be educating Muslims about their religion now.

Please who does Christians oppose this trend?

[size=14pt]The devil has been playing around with your Bible for centuries.[/size] It suits him to have you believe that Jesus 'manifests himself' to you, since that opens a door to the devil to put his own inspirations into you, under the guise of being Jesus... using this verse as proof. How many atrocities have pastors committed under the guise of commands from a 'manifestation' of Jesus or the 'holy spirit'? From impregnating parishioner's wives and daughters, to burning 'witches' out of little kids, to dispensing petrol as pineapple juice and grass as cake, to lining up bare naked spinsters and committing atrocities on them in public. The common thread...either Jesus or the Holy spirit told them to. [size=14pt]Common sense and morals leads us to believe that the devil told them to, regardless of what they think.[/size] And if the devil can appear to them, why not to you? Perhaps the message given to you is more subtly evil than impregnating twenty parishioners wives.

So is Devil who puts this verse there, I remember one thread we're talking about Bible being corrupted YET still support the prophecy of Muhammad you said that day that "if a VERSE is corrupted then the WHOLE is corrupted too

For your information this same John 14 has been used by Muslims scholars to prove that Bible actually prophesied about Muhammad, now if it is the Devil who put this verse there then Devil has also deceived you poeple.

The funny part is that, Muhammad claimed that Jibrl (Holyspirit) appeared to him YET all these atrocities were also common in his life that means Devil is the one that actually appeared to him as confirmed by you @bold 2.

The prophet Muhammad (saw) actually performed more miracles than Jesus according to extant sources, and taking the NT as authentic for the sake of argument. From feeding the multitudes, to producing water, to healing the sick, to driving out demons. I actually have a book titled; 'the one thousand and one miracles of the messenger of Allah'. [size=14pt]We just do not boast of them because they were a sign for those who were there. The Quran is our miracle for us today.[/size] Having said that, please tell me how many miracles did the prophet Abraham perform in your Bible? Does this decrease his status as a prophet?

Imaging you want to take the record of Jesus NT miracles as authentic JUST FOR ARGUMENT SAKE whereas your own Qur'an talks more of Jesus' miracles.

I can see your objection to Christians miracles since Allah has limited his power to a BOOK but my God: the Great YAHWEH, I AM THAT I AM, UNSEARCHABLE GOD, UNLIMITED IN POWER proves His power whenever man's power is limited any day any time any where.

Besides, does your Bible not say that only an evil and adulterous generation seeks for signs? What does that make you evangelicals/ pentecostals that are signs and wonders junkies?

Lol...so why does Allah show signs to this evil and adulterous generation when they asked Muhammad?

Mind you we're not seeking for Miracles to PROVE THE EXISTENCE OF GOD as the Jews do to prove Jesus' Messianic which lead to that statement of Jesus that you misinterpreted but my Bible says wherever the SPIRIT OF THE LORD is, there's LIBERTY