Havila and gbadex God is good,all the time.

One of the greatest events recorded in the Bible is the conversion,baptism and holy Ghost infilling of Cornelius and his household in Acts 10.

That is where God not only taught Peter and all that all men(Jews and gentiles) were equal before him but most importantly that even a good man in the eyes of the law and in the eyes of men would be doomed without salvation.
Doing good or attempting to do good is not the answer,Christ is the answer .A little on the later part of that whole event.

Act 10:44   While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message.

Act 10:45   The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles.

Act 10:46   For they heard them speaking in tongues* and praising God.

Then Peter said,

Act 10:47   “Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”

Act 10:48   So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.


_{Peter was a jew,Cornelius a gentile both servants of God almighty}

@Babyosisi: In the Al Qur'an's Suratul Naml (The Ants, verse 60), Allah the Almighty declares: When you ask them, Who has created heavens and the earth and sends down water, to revive the vegetation for sustenance and beautification, they will answer, its Allah. In this verse, you will see that Allah proclaims His authority, without any ambiguity.
So this remind me of the story of an old Fulani man in Guinea in the days of French colonial imposition on them. So this man used to pay land tax on his properties and farm. So it came a time that this man was fed up with the payment of this unholy levies and surcharges. The night before the D. O. was to come for the collection of monies, the old man gave instruction to his family members, what to do as soon as they see the officer from afar.

In the morning, they saw the man approaching from a quarter of a mile away. So they followed their elder's instruction, by climbing up on trees and staying there , men and women, altogether! To the surprise of this French officer, the old mnan refused to give him any money. He told the frenchman to wrap up as a carpet, the land of France which is on top, so that the soil of the Almighty Allah be revealed out. This is what the old man said, which dumbfounded the Frenchman! I do not want to put Yoruba expression in here, but I am sure you understand where i am going with this.

The Frenchman went to his superior for strategy and came back a few days later. The family members climbed up the trees again and remained there, leaving the old man to deal with this issue. The condition was the same. The third time that this Frenchman came to this oldman, his superior gave him instruction that there is no more levies and taxes to be paid by this man. He is now given blanketed amnesty. The French knew that if they pressed the issue, the whole village will know and everyone will take the same stand and for sure the French will lose out.

Such is how Allah helps and hates oppression. America, is part of the earth. So is Nigeria, my birth country. I love both nations. I became an adult and a true man here in America. The 2 sons that I have were born in Brooklyn and Newark, both in the NYC metropolitan area. Apart from being educated in America, here is where I have engaged in my own business and have achieved Success. Here is also that I truly know about Islam. I say God bless and protect America, my parental and ancestral Country, Nigeria and the rest of the world. It is true that America is God's Country, so is the rest of the world! Allah creats every part of the world. Can any sane mind say that God created one part of the earth and not the other?

Again, when mankind is in distress, ag, as in Tsunami, Katrina and others, even the Atheist and the Agnostic call God, alone, to help them and extracate them from this clear and present danger! I declare again that there is Only One God. He begets no one nor is He begotten.

Was Allah The Moon God of Ancient Arab Pagan?



By Syed Kamran Mirza



Historical evidences, impartial logic, well versed references and all available circumstantial judgments can very well prove that—(a) Allah name of deity was pre-existed much before the arrival of Islam, (b) Pre-Islamic Pagan peoples worshipped Allah as their supreme deity (moon-god). Allah’s name existed in pre-Islamic Arab. In ancient Arab the Allah was considered to be the supreme God/deity (as Moon-God) and Arab Pagans worshipped Allah before Islam arrived.



Let us examine below some valid questions and answers :

Did the Pagan Arabs in pre-Islamic times worship 360 gods? Yes

Did the pagans Arabs worship the sun, moon and the stars? Yes

Did the Arabs built temples to the Moon-god? Yes

Did different Arab tribes give the Moon-god different names/titles? Yes

What were some of the names/titles? Sin, Hubul, Ilumquh, Al-ilah.

Was the title “al-ilah” (the god) used as the Moon-god? Yes

Was the word “Allah” derived from “al-ilah?” Yes

Was the pagan “Allah” a high god in a pantheon of deities? Yes.

Was he worshipped at the Kabah? Yes.

Was Allah only one of many Meccan gods? Yes

Did they place a statue of Hubul on top of the Kabah? Yes.

At that time was Hubul considered the Moon-god? Yes.

Was the Kabah thus the “house of the Moon-god”? Yes.

Did the name “Allah” eventually replace that of Hubul as the name of the Moon god? Yes.

Did they call the Kabah the “house of Allah”? Yes.

Were al-Lat, al-Uzza and Manat called “the daughters of Allah”? Yes.

Yusuf Ali explains in fn. 5096, pg. 1445, that Lat, Uzza and Manat were known as “the daughters of God [Allah]”

Did the Qur’an at one point tell Muslims to worship al-Lat, al-Uzza and Manat? Yes. In Surah 53:19-20.

Have those verses been “abrogated” out of the present Qur’an? Yes.

What were they called? “The Satanic Verses.”



The variable names (Sin, Hubul, llumquh, Al-ilah) of moon god were used by various tribes of pagan Arabs. Pagan god SIN was the name of Moon-god.





Who is actually Allah?



According to Islamic Theologians (Mullahs, Maulana, Moulavis, etc.), or Islamic teachings-- Allah is the supreme God or creator who (suddenly one day?) talked or introduced Himself with Prophet Muhammad through an Angel named Gabriel, disclosing the truth that it is the Allah who created everything in the universe. Surprisingly, Qur’an never defines the word “Allah” as to who actually Allah was or what was the relation of Allah with pagans. I believe, 99% percent of Muslims do believe that—Allah’s name was invented or started right from the time when Gabriel disclosed the truth (?) to Prophet Muhammad in the cave of Hira Parvat (Mountain) and gave Muhammad the Quran. They believe that before this truth was revealed—pagan Arabs were in the total darkness (Andhakar Zuug) and they used to worship various puppet goddess and that the pagans were very evil people. I can bet on this fact that no mullahs ever told us the real truth, neither they believe this clean truth that “Allah” was in fact a pre-existing deity in pagan Arabia. What a hypocrisy?



Some important factors which will suggest that the name“Allah” was already in use by Pagans as their chief God/deity:



(A) In pre-Islamic days, that Muslims call the Days of ignorance, the religious background of the Arabs was pagan, and basically animistic. Through Moon, Sun, Stars, Planets, Animals, wells, trees, stones, caves, springs, and other natural objects man could make contact with the deity. At Mekka, “Allah” was the chief of the gods and the special deity of the Quraish, the prophet’s tribe. Allah had three daughters: Al Uzzah (Venus) most revered of all and pleased with human sacrifice; Manah, the goddess of destiny, and Al Lat, the goddess of vegetable life. These three daughters of Allah (there is a Quranic verse about them) were considered very powerful over all things. Therefore, their intercessions on behalf of their worshippers were of great significance.

(B) Arabs used to give their children names such as—Abdullah (slave of Allah). Clean proof was the fact that, Muhammad’s father’s name was “Abdullah”. Logical analogy here is—had there been no “Allah” in pre-Islamic Arab, there could be no Abdullah or slave of Allah in Arabia.

(C) Even today, in the entire Arab World, not only Muslims but all other non-Muslim (Jews, Christians, Sabians, Bahai, an atheist etc.) Arabs says—“Ya Allah” as the expression of surprise or unhappiness/sorrow.

(D). Albert Hourani’s statement: “The Islamic name used for God was “Allah”, which was already in use for one of the local Gods (it now used by Arabic-speaking Jews and Christians as the name of God (A history Of Arab people by Albert Hourani, 1991, page-16, Belknap press of Harvard University, USA)



History tells us two theories of Allah’s existence in and around the Kaba Sharif: (1) Pagans used to call the largest Statue amongst the 360 deities as ALLAH—whom they used to consider the chief/supreme deity (god). Or, (2) Pagan Arabs used to worship 360 deities inside Kaba Sharif, and they used to consider them different smaller deities under the total control of a single most powerful chief deity called “ALLAH” who was invisible (Nirakar) and was the all-powerful, all-knowing, and totally unknowable.



Amazing Similarities with Hindu Religion:



In India’s Hindu religion is quite similar to the number two theory (above) of pagan belief. Although, Hindus worship many different Goddesses—they invariably have faith upon a single supreme invisible deity called “Bhagaban” (some call it “Ischhaar”) whom they call “Nirakar”. And, surprisingly there is no sculptural image/figure for this Bhagaban. But all Hindus worship Him along with other numerous deities. This Bhagaban is considered as the lord of all other deities. What would happen—if some intelligent prophet would have asked Hindus to give up worshipping other goddesses and keeping only Bhagaban as their only deity making it a monotheist religion just like Islam? Could it not be another religion like Islam?



Now some factors which will suggest “Allah” was the Moon-god of Arab pagans:



(A) In Qura’n there are at least a dozen verses in which Allah repeatedly swears by the names such as moon, sun, stars, planets, night, wind etc. It is a mystery why the creator Allah (?) should swear by his creations. Normally, we swear by the name of something much superior to us, such as we swear by God or by the name of our father (who is considered senior or superior to us). But we never swear by the name of something inferior to us. Here in the Quran swearing fashions of Allah (God) by moon or stars hinting us that Allah considered these things superior to himself. And this makes us to think (otherwise) as to who actually acted as Allah in Quran? However, in his explanation of why the Qur’an swears by the moon in Surah 74:32, “Nay, verily by the Moon,” Yusuf Alli comments, “The moon was worshipped as a deity in times of darkness”(fn. 5798, pg. 1644). Perhaps, this swearing of Allah was due to the usual/cultural habits of worshipping moon as their God in pagan customs.



(B) Yousuf Ali stated (Page-1921-1623 of his English Translation of Holy Quran):



“Moon-worship was equally popular in various forms………Apollo and Diana—the twin brother and sister, representing the sun and moon. …in the Vedic religion of India the moon god was Soma, the lord of the planets…….moon was male divinity in ancient India. Moon was also male divinity in ancient Semitic religion, and the Arabic word for the moon “qamar’ is of the masculine gender, on the other hand, the Arabic word for sun “shams” is feminine gender. The pagan Arabs evidently looked upon the sun as a goddess and the moon as a God.



The Pagan deities best known in the Ka’ba and round about Mecca were Lat, Uzza, and Manat.…the 360 idols established by the Pagans in the Ka’ba probably represented the 360 days of an inaccurate solar year. This was the actual modern pagan worship as known to the Quraish contemporary with our prophet”



(C) Influence of Moon in Islam:



Who can deny the paramount influences of moon in Muslim’s life? In Islam, moon is considered holiest astronomical object, and moon is the guiding light of all Islamic rituals/festivals. Contradictions and conflicts are very common with the dates of Eids and Ramadan and obviously it is a chronic problem and moon is the nucleus of this problem. Crescent moon and stars are the symbolic sign in the national flags of many Muslim countries, and it is present over the Mosques, in the Muslim graveyard etc.



Prophet Muhammad compromised to Pagans to establish Islam in Arabia:



Prophet Muhammad did his clever tactics of adapting many rites of paganism into Islam, in order to accommodate Islam among the pagan Arabs. He made lots of political pacts with the Pagan Leaders such as Abu Suffian to accommodate his new idea of religion and he agreed to incorporate many of the Pagan rituals in Islam. Prophet Muhammad asked the pagans to worship only the “Allah” the largest God,

And destroy the idols of all other gods and goddesses that existed in Kabah. To establish oneness (monotheist) of God, he repeatedly asked them not to make any partners to Allah (That is why we can find hundreds of Quranic verses “asking not to make any partners to Allah). Finally, the Prophet was able to convince (by force of course) the pagans to destroy all idols, and on return (he) agreed (perhaps) to keep the “Names” of the goddess of most famous Pagan tribes as the alternative names of Allah—hence Islam has 99 NAMES of Allah.



Prophet Muhammad did command his followers to participate in these pagan ceremonies while the pagans were still in control of Mecca. (Please See Yusuf Ali, fn. 214, pg. 78). , “the whole of the [pagan] pilgrimage was spiritualized in Islam, ” (Yusuf Ali: fn. 223 pg. 80). In the Tafsir (of Quran-2:200) maoulana Yousuf Ali stated: “After Pilgrimage, in Pagan times, the pilgrims used to gather in assemblies in which the praises of ancestors were sung. As the whole of the pilgrimage rites were spiritualized in Islam, so this aftermath of the Pilgrimage was also spiritualized. It was recommended for pilgrims to stay on two or three days after the pilgrimage, but they must use them in prayer and praise to God.(#223 of Shane’nazul by Maoulana Yousuf Ali, page-81)



In Islam many rituals performed (today) by devoted Muslims in the name of Allah are connected to the pagan worship that existed before Islam. Pagans practices of the Pilgrimage of Kabah once a year--the Fast of Ramadan, running around the Kabah seven times, kissing the black stone, shaving the head, animal sacrifices, running up and down two hills, throwing stones at the devil, snorting water in and out the nose, praying several times a day toward Mecca, giving alms, Friday prayers, etc. are strictly followed by Muslims today. Nobody can deny the fact that, all the above rituals of Muslim’s hajj today—existed well before the arrival of Islam.



It is highly plausible to consider the fact that by incorporating much of the Pagan’s rituals in new religion Islam—Prophet successfully reduced the pagan-risk and it was perhaps one of the most important milestone-attempts to conquer the minds of Pagans resulting in massive breakdown of the Pagans’ moral and support to oppose Islam.

The central shrine at Mekka was the Pagan’s Kaaba (called House of Allah), a cube like stone structure which still stands though many times rebuilt. Imbedded in one corner is the black stone, probably a meteorite, the kissing of which is now an essential part of the Muslim’s pilgrimage.



It is the historical fact that the Ka’aba, the sacred shrine which contains the Black Stone, in Mecca was used for pagan idol worship before Islam and even called the House of Allah at that time. The name of the God whom the Arabs worshipped was the god of pantheon—Ali-ilah the god, the supreme, the predeterminer of everybody’s life or destiny—the chief God “Allah”



Who did not read the story of BLACK STONE which was very sacred (povitra) to all various tribes of Quraish. When one day this sacred stone was needed to transfer from one place to another, there was a quarrel amongst the various tribes, as to who will carry that sacred stone? Then most intelligent and righteous young boy Muhammad (was not a prophet then) invented the solution of this serious problem. He (Muhammad) put this sacred stone over a Chaddor (piece of cloth) and asked one representative from each tribe to hold the Chaddor and carry the stone. I narrated this story briefly just to prove that—black stone did exist long before Islam was invented.

In summary, it has been truthfully and logically proven with all possible available circumstantial evidences/rational that, Islam was not a new religion but it is a reformed paganism. I believe thatall these monotheistic religions have more or less similar origins. This idea of monotheistic religion was not a brand new invention. Monotheistic thought was declared by Ancient Pharaoh Kings, Mesopotamia’s king Hamarubi (3000 B.C.), and Alexander the Great (300 B.C.). Differences were, these kings demanded that they themselves were the God whom everybody should worship.



References:



1. The Holy Qur’an, Translated by A. Yousuf Ali, Published by Amana Corporation, Brentwood, Maryland, 1983

2. Buchari Sharif, Bengali Translation by Maulana Muhammad Mustafizur Rahman, Sulemani Printers and Publishers, Dhaka, Second edition-1999

3. A History of the Arab peoples, by Albert Hourani, the Belknap press of Harvard University press, Cambridge, Massachusetts, 1991

4. Dr. Robert Morey, 1996 Research and Education Foundation.

5. Gilchrist, The Temple, The Ka’aba, and the Christ (Benoni, South Africa, 1980), p. 16.

6. G. J. O. Moshay, Who Is This Allah?, (Dorchester House, Bucks, UK, 1994), pg. 138

7. Ibn Warraq, Why I Am Not A Muslim, (Prometheus, Amherst, 1995) p. 42.



8. Encyclopedia of Islam, eds. Lewis, Menage, Pellat, Schacht (Leiden: E. J. Brill, 1971, II:1093.)

@Babyosisi,
Thanks and God bless for that post, may His mercies endure for ever. Let's continue to pray that God in his mercy will open the hearts of those who still do not know him. Let's continue posting the true word of God to back up our claims of His mercies and love; and not 'stories from office-banters' or just 'headless' and 'tailess' stories. Let's continue to expose the works of flesh and deception in the world today that tends to keep people from understanding the gift of salvation. For example, We know that the actual reason why Islam especially deny the Cross/Crucifixion of Jesus Christ is to keep people from believing in, and knowing of the free gift of SALVATION. Take away the Cross, then there is no Salvation!!!. It is a deception from the pit of Hell handed over to the false pedophilia prophet Muhammed in a cave to keep people in perpetual darkness. God in his mercy will open their hearts, take away the heart of stone and replace it with a heart of flesh to get understanding of the free gift of salvation from God the father through His Son Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour, Amen. The Lord said we 'should be of good cheer, because he has overcome the world.' He said it, we believe it.

NB: By the way, I wonder why all the suratul in Quran have absurd names like 'The Ant', 'The Cow', 'The Table Cloth or table spread or whatever' , etc.

@ChiluvGod8: I wish I have enough time to wate, I would just demolish your writing, above. I will recommend that you go and study the Life History of Muhammad (AS). You will know that Moon and others are just to mark time, seasonal changes, etc and nothing more. You will also see that Muhammad tore the Moon into 2, as a miracle that was witnessed by the Pagan makkans. If Muhammad incorporated pagan rituals and it was to pacify the Arab Pagans, why did the makkans oppressed them so much that they left Makka to Ethiopia, twice and then, finally to Madina?

When you read about the Ka'aba, you will find that this structure was initially built in the lifetime of Adam (AS). The foundation remained even after the folld of Noah (AS). When Ibrahiim built it with his first and at sometime in his life's only son Ismail (AS, to both of them), they used the foundation that was there already! The house did not have any idol, until later. When Muhammad (AS) conquered Makka with his followers, they did not leave a single idol, whatsoever. No muslim worships any idol and as a matter of fact imagery that has soul, eg ny part of man or animal is frowned upon, as a possession, means of exhange or trade/commerce.

Muhammad's father was Abdullah, so every muslim is aware of this name, contrary to your statement. Further Olorun is a name used for God, in pre christian and preislam era. Is the name Olorun, Oluwa. Eledumare, Chineke ,etc not applicable in todays dialectic/african languages identification of God the Creator? It is as if whatever the pagans did no believer must as a rule for you and your people. If a disbeliever cleans, eats, prays/supplicate, have family, wear cloths, etc, muslims must not do it. Even this tradition is commandment from God, in to follow the tradition of Ibrahiim, the father of faith, who existed before the Pagan of Makka and all Arabs bastardize them! When God commands it to be done for His pleasure in Islam, it should be therefore abandoned and one should dispbey God? If a Yoruba family known as Oludare becomes, a Christian or Muslim family, they should change their name! There is nothing with the name in the first place the name is just fine now that it is out of idolastic pagan religion to Islam for example.

At Allah using elements like Moon, Sun, to swear, did not mean they are more superior, far from it. After all He swear by Time in Sural Asr, by dawn in Suratul Fajr, by steed/the thing that runs in Suratul Dhubha, by wind in Suratul Mursalat, by the Angels in suratul Naziat, by the sky displaying, promised day, witnessin Suratul Buruj, by the morning glory light in Suratul Dhukan, by the nightin suratul Lail, by the sky and the night visitant in Suratul Tariq, etc. You have enough? My question is this, do you thing that time, which Allah swears by is greater? You see, the truth is that your leaders who write the nonsense that you have copied, are what we call MUTA MUSHRIKUUN. They have knowledge, by it is not put to good use. The knowledge is a burden on them and a witness against then in the day of Judgement.

@ olabs,

that statement u made about allah swearing by the steed, wind, stars, moon. If we should follow ur logic, those things mentioned that allah sweared by are created. Now let's look @ the other dude's line of thought:

if Allah is as superior and great as he is assumed to be, then why swear by things/creations that are lesser or inferior to him? Olabs, pls follow this train of thought with an objective mind.

Ponder

@gbade.x: Allah says to mankind, if one wre to swear one should use Him, alone. I often have heard people swear even using the lives of their own children. I see that you are not a father yet, considering your age. But if your parents so sure about something and they use you to swear, emphasing the certainty, is then to be taken that your parents are inferior to you? No, my brother! Then your 'scholar' who have written the confusion which you and others are hanging your hats on, is putting Allah's standard in the same standard as humans'?

Humans, for example are contrained by time, beginning and ending. Is that quality known as time applicable to Allah the Almighty God? God the Creator of all can swear by anything. That is His discretions and no one can judge, restrict, challenge Him on anything. That includes His sole responsibility as the Judge of the Last day. Those who think that they are restricting or can define God are extremely astray from the path that is straight! I and every muslim know that God describe in many ways, but never as a father of any. Then he support this statement, finally by many verses and this profound verse: Say, if their has been a son of the Almighty, I will be the first to worship him. See, the verse provide a negation from the beginning. My point is this, when your man writes, he should be truthful, not suggestive and deciving. That is where the evil is. People like him, they are known as Muta Mushrikuun. Having a knowledge that is not benefitting, but a witness that will lead him to the Fire of Hell.

Now, gbade.x, think, man, mac daddy. Young blood.

gbade. x:

@ If Allah is as superior and great as he is assumed to be, then why swear by things/creations that are lesser or inferior to him? Olabs, please follow this train of thought with an objective mind.

@Gbade,
Brilliant question. Now compare this allah with Jehovah, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, who when he wanted to bless Abraham; (as Abraham obeyed his command to offer Isaac) "because He could sware by nothing greater, He swore by Himself". (Gen 22 vs 16)

@All,
Every 'born-again' Christian MUST recognise the importance of our spiritual relationship and shared covenant to the Jews and the nation of Israel. This relationship was foretold in the blessings of God upon Abraham in Gen.12 vs 2-3 (2)"And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shal be a blessing. (3) And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse them that curse thee' and IN THEE SHALL ALL FAMILIES OF THE EARTH BE BLESSED."

And in Gen 13 vs 14-15:
"And the Lord said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northwards, and southwards, and eastwards, and westwards:
(15) FOR ALL THE LAND WHICH THOUGH SEEST, TO THEE WILL I GIVE IT, AND TO THY SEED FOR EVER."
This is the promise of God Almighty that covenated the land upon which Israel now stands to the seeds of Abraham. But which seeds?? When Abraham asked God to bless his firstborn child (i.e Ishmael; the progenitor of Arabs and their ideology/theology of Islam & Allah) as was the custom, God said NO!! Read Gen 17 vs 18-19
(18) "And Abraham said unto God, O' that Ishmael might live before thee!(19) "And God said, SARAH THY WIFE SHALL BEAR THEE A SON INDEED; AND THOUGH SHALL CALL HIS NAME ISAAC: AND I WILL ESTABLISH MY COVENANT WITH HIM FOR AN EVERLASTING COVENANT, AND WITH HIS SEED AFTER HIM (that is Jacob or Israel, the father of the Jewish nation).

Jesus Christ came out of the 'Root of David' in the nation of Israel, and 'through Him shall all the nations of the earth be blessed.' Jesus Christ came to proclaim the kingdom of God, seal the covenant of God with Israel, redeem us from sin,  graft us the Gentiles into the covenant of God through faith, etc. Thus every christian MUST know he is covenantly and spiritually connected to the promises of Abraham and nation of Israel through Jesus Christ. Every christian MUST support and pray for the nation of Israel against it's enemies who want to 'wipe them out of the face of the earth.' The land of Israel belongs to them as covenated by God himself and anybody who supports the division of the land of Israel will face the judgement of God.(This is not a threat, it is written!!)

WHY DO THE ISLAMIC NATIONS WANT ISRAEL WIPED OUT? (& also their hatred for the West?)
This is rooted in Genesis 17 vs 18-19 as shown above. Muhammed (of the root of Ishmael) taught muslims 'triumphatism' i.e. the entire world must be brought under Islamic control by force or any means possible; thus the existence of Israel and Judeo-Christianity of the West is the greatest obstacle to this 'command.' Because the continued existence of Israel/Judeo-Christianity is an attestation to the fact that Islam is false and muhammed a liar. This is unthinkable and unbearable to the muslims/Islamic fascists!!
But that command can NEVER be achieved because of God's promise to Israel in Jeremiah 31 vs 35-36. Read: (35)"Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moonand of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the seas when the waves thereof roar, The Lord of Host is his name: (36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever."
And to those "faulty thinking and empty heavyweights" lacking in judgement and understanding or discernment, what you see here is the true great God not SWEARING by what he created but affirming his awesomeness and authority as the 'God of ALL creations'.

@Havila: I had just responded to your entry and I am going to respond to this Ibrahiim issue to his progeny. In the Qur'an, in Suratul Baqarah, you will see that Yaquub, the son of Isiaka, the nephew of Ismaila, the grand son of Ibrahiim (AS, to all of them), telling his childern (the 12 sons, etc), when they have established in Egypt tat they should worship God the Almighty alone and do not associate anything with Him. We then see again that Yaquub asked his children while on his death bed that how would they worship after his passing away (He was taking a covenant from them, bearing in mind that he was a prphet from the bloodline of prophethood)? They responded that they will will worship in the way that their forefathers had worshipped, the way of Ibrahiim, Ismaila, Isiaka and then you our father, worshipping that God and we bow our will to him (IN Islam)! Havila you do nohave to agree with me, this is what debate is all about. However, I reflected on my own, realising that Ismail was at least 13 years the snoir of Isiaka, his younger brother the second child and son of father Ibrahiim.

Qur'an tells us that Ibrahiim took his son, Ismail and his mother , Ibrahiim's youger wife th the desert of Makka and left them, with limited supply. This younger wife asked and accepted this unusual action of Ibrahiim, upon Ibrahiim indicating that he is following the injuction of Allah. Ibrahiim went back to Palestines (City of Jerusalem). How long did it take them them to make the journey to Makka and for sure it will quicker for Ibrahiim to return back home, alone without the drags (Mother and young Child). From the numbers of many years that Ismail has over Isiaka his younger brother, we realise that Isiaka was not born or just a toddler at the time of moving to makka. We realised that God preserved Ismail and his mother in the desert, with the water of Zam Zam and people settling in this new habitable land. From this point on we realise that there has never been a time peopledid not live in it and no one including the army of the the people of the Elephant has ever defeated this city, infact all invading army had been defeated miraculously and Muhammad was the only one that conquerd it under the banner of Islam for his Lord.

Now, the Muslims claimed that Qur'an tells us that Ibrahiim built the Ka'aba with the help of his son, Ibrahiim and calls mankind to visit under the instruction of Allah. At a time, there after, Qur'an says that Ibrahiim was commanded to slaughter his son Ismail and he asked the son and he agreed and encouraged his father to carry out the commandmenbt. Al Qur'an says further that th child was ransome with an animal slaughter. We see that the muslims from Muhammads time and Arabs before him use to perform a less comprehensive rites of Hajj than what Muslimsdo. Today, the Muslims wear what we call the wrap of Hiram, the shout to your service Oh Allah, , Pray on Arafah, then further, Ummrah to Madina and even visiting Masjid Aqsa in Palestine.

From the commandmenbt of Yaquub as indicated to his children, we realise that Yaquub knew about his Uncle Ismail in makka. He even told his children about this man. From the Bible we realise that the Children of Israel, who their stronger branch absorbed, by ethnic and religious dominance. At least they do not deny that their father's Uncle never existed. From the Bible, we are told that Isiaac was the child that was ransome in the sacrifice, in Jerusalem at the Rock which is now in a masjid Umar in the Aqsa Masjid complex. We now come back to Ibrahiim possible relation with Ismail in Makka; FromHadith, we hear from Muhammad, that Ibrahiim used to vist Ismail and Ismail the same, where I am supposing that Yakuub knew about his father's Uncle. We must understand that if Sarah had instructed and Ibrahiim had agreed to obey Sarah by sending Ismail and his mother away. Now that Ismail is grown and independent and can go whereever, then I think Sarah's choke hold on this father son and 2 brothers relation complexity is almost Zero. We do not find in the Bible where Ibrahiim denied his fatherhood on Ismail. In Makka, Ibrahiim came to Ismail's house and Ismail was not home, but his wife was. The wife made a terrible remark about their sustenance to Ibrahiim. Ibrahiim left a prophetic message for his son, Ismail (AS), a prophet, too. Ismail devorce his wife because of his father's saying so. He married another wife. Sometimes in this marriage, Ibrahiim visited as like the first. This time this wife was fully of good words and praise of Ismail, her husband. Ibrahiim left a prophetic message for Ismail, to keep his wife. Ismail never devorced this woman.

You wil agree with me that Idol worshipping among the arabs and its placement in the Ka'aba came in later than the time of Ibrahiim, Ismail and his mother Hajar and some generations later. The 360 idols did not arrive in Ka'aba at once. (Read about this and many more from a book titled: The stories of the Prophets). Hypothetically, if Isiaka was the son that was meant to be sacrified and then ransome, then why are ot the Jews, who have to use his line in the heritage of Ibrahiim to separate themselves and and claim ownership of the Ibrahiimic covenant with God? Today, we see that the arabs even, when they were majority pagans before the Islam of Muhammad (AS), they carry this duty of Hajj. When Islam of Muhammad came, whatever was prescribed was followed, even up to today. WE also realise that the Muslims claim that all prophets, Ibrahiim, Ismail, Isiaka, Yaquub, Yusuf, Musa, Daud, Sulayman, Zakariya, Yahya, Isa ibn Mariam and Muhammad and others before Ibrahiimare Muslims and their prophets and their leaders and we say Alaysalaam to each and every one of them.

Do you think if Isiaka was the son of slaughter, the Prophet of Allah will hide this fact when his Lord has provided him with the truth? Muammad (AS), is an Iconoclast of the highest calibre. Muhammad got Suratul Kafr, in indicating to the pagans of makka that Islam willnot compromise and will not comingle our religion and injusction to satisfy or pacify anyone. Muhammad says during the lifetimeof his Uncle, that if the Sun was placed in his right hand, and the moon in the left, he will not stop his mission until Allah's command prevails. The otherside of the Issue is that when Muhammad arrived in Madina and found out that the Jews do fast on the 10th day of the month of Muharram, because it is the day that Musa fasted during his lifetime because of his victory over Pharaoh of Egypt, an african black. Muhammadsaid that the Muslims has more rights over Musa as their brother and prophet than the Jews. So he ordered the Muslims to fast that day and makes it a commandment that Muslims should fast that day and a day before it and/or a day before it. Today Muslims all over the world do this, every year. The same Muhammad also encourage Muslims to fast the fast of daud, the fast Isa bin Mariam. He encourage us to pray the prayer of Jonah, the perceverance of Yaquub when he sons told him about Yusuf, the declaration of confession of our wrong as Yunusa in the belly ofthe Whale, the thankfulness of Zakariya when he was told the good news of a son, Yahya, to refrain from illegal sexual temptation as Yusuf. You sincerely believe that this prophet will not tell the truth. You see how orderly Islam is and the constant remembrance of God 24/7, the muslims are. Yes you will have some who fall through trhe cracks, in many continuous conditions. THis prophet is so sincere that you will know what to do even when you are putting on your clothings, then even new clothing, when you yearn, sneeze, when ready to it and you finish you meal Inshort, you have the right action or saying for every occasion. He has led me to all things. See at my age, I tried to smooth and oil down your ego!

@Ola,
Thanks for the entry: you do NOT need to 'smooth or oil' my ego because what you 're seeing is not ego. I am not a Christian trying to be 'politically-correct'; I am a believer in the ONLY living God, and in his mercies through Jesus Christ, and his covenant with the nation of Israel, and his promise to the entire body of Christ, without any compromise.
I do not need or want to continue going round in circles with this issue because there is no need. Your entry is difficult to follow it's line of thought or to know the theme but I did my best. Thus the main issue is this: I said Isaac is the Son of promise of God, offered by Abraham on Mount Moriah as written in the book of Genesis; but you said Ishmael was the one offered as written in your quran.
Now, the book of Genesis (meaning "beginning" in Greek and called Bereshit i.e "in the beggining" in original Hebrew text) was written by Prophet Moses. The Mosaic (i.e Moses's) authorship of the Genesis is supported by the 'Taurat or Torah'(Ex 17:14, Num 33:1, Joshua 1 :7 etc), the Talmud of the Palestinians, the Apocrypha, etc as well as in the New Testament by Jesus Christ himself in Luke 24 vs 27 & 44. This is the book that records the beginning of times, of original sin of first man Adam, of the history of the four great patriachs Abraham, Isaac, Jacob/Israel & Joseph, and of the creation of the nation of Israel as outlined in my previous post. It also records the first Messianic prophecies of the Bible predicting that the Redeemer (Jesus Christ) would be born of the seed of a woman (Gen 3:15), through the line of Seth (Gen 4:25); a son of Shem (Gen 9:27); the offspring of Abraham (Gen 12:3), Isaac (Gen 21:12), and Jacob (Gen 25:23); and from the tribe of Judah (Gen 49:10)
Now since the book was written almost 700-1000 years 'BEFORE' the advent of Islam/Muhammed/Quran (who descended from Ishmael), supported by myrad acheaological and historical evidences from the ancient middle east; how plausible is it that the story in the Quran is true? It is highly unlikely. Additionally, the Quran itself testifies to the authenticity of the Taurat/Torah as 'given by God to Moses' (Sura 5:47-52; Surah 5:69, 71-72, Surah 6:91, Surah 3:3). Now, you asked whether Muhammed was lying in his own account of Abraham-Isaac-Ishmael story? YES, he was!: let's say the truth and put the devil to shame!! Why? Simply to confuse and indoctrinate people into his new ideology called Islam. History and quran records it that muhammed initially tried to convert the jews to his religion and when he was rejected went on rampage killing and murdering the jews; and the instruction is still in your quran today that muslim are not to keep jews and christians ("people of the books" as friends; and to kill them at any opportunity. (that has been referended from varous suras at various times, so I don't need to repeat it). Because we represent the greatest challenge or obstacle to the "apparent" 'truth' and 'authority' of Quran. Which is why a lot of stories in quran are from the bible account with some twisting, simply to add to it's authenticity for the sake of the "people of the books." Thus the instruction is there in your quran from Muhammed that if people do not accept Islam peacefully, then they should be made to accept it by force or be killed.
I thank God Almighy because he told us 'in all things we should get understanding'. We are in the era of some people trying to be politically-correct, I do not subscribe to that. I will say the truth as contained in the scriptures; if anybody's sensibilities is offended, well,,,,,,,,,,,,the truth still remains true.

@Havila: Alhamdulillah. I made my peacealready and I do not need to look back. It is true that you are a christian or whatever you are. I on the other hand, a Muslim. Maybe it became easy for me because my soul accepts it. I all indications, I will never change it for anything. It is a shame that your heart can't wrap around my argument, because it is the way people present their viewpoint, using several examples to support it, in practical sequence. I did not ask you to validate Muhammad (AS). His Lord already has done it. Then His Angels, all other prophets before him and then the generations of believers, starting from his companions all the way to the last generation of believers to come!

Again, all the white people I do business with in your faded glorious England, and all over the world and 'ol USA quite understand me. I write contracts and deal with Prime banks and they do appreciate my input. I can see how you will be able to "get me" . Afterall you believe that you are right and their is no possibility that you may be wrong. You are a Medical Doctor and you will not the least amount of sincerity that Medical textbook on any topics and procedure or treatment of any desease has not been refined/improved upon, in the past 500 years. The man who invented the operational procedure of Intestine was an untrained Black man, who was just given the recognition of his effort in the past few years. How did he honed his tecnics; he practiced on Wet noodles and he was a pioneer. You know where I stand and I do no where you stand. You ask a question which was to indicate that because Islam of Muhammad came, more recently than Christianity, hence it can not be true. I expect a man of book like you to have a better analysis. Afterall, 'Christianity' came after Judaism as a religion, yet you believe that Christianity is better than it. Since Noah, Ibrahiim (AS), were not Jews ethnically, never practice a religion which you will call Judaism, then you should think about their religion and if it is diferent from those of later individuals, including Moses. And by the way Talmud is not a Palestinian issue, it was developed by the Scholars of the Jews, as a book that suppliments Torah among other things. What about Kabalah that the Jews get involved in.

Finally, Qur'an spoke about Old and New Testaments being authentic at some time in their indivual period, all before Muhammad (AS) We also believe i Musa and Isa and other prophets. No one will take that away from us. You may try with your lips, in trying to deny our rights, but all of these are in our hearts. You can use your Tomahawk, it will not work. See whats being going around now in Europe and America. The truth will definately come out, some day.

@olabs:

i'd extract from ur post to me. U said allah said that believers, so to say, should swear by him and him alone. Following your logic here, people swear by an entity or being that is superior to them. Under this line of thought, to allah, the people are his creations, and are definately inferior to him. Then how come he swears by the wind, steed, physical quantities, creations that are ,assumably, lesser or inferior to him. Dude, this is just simple logic, treat it as it is.

Then taking the other part about a parent swearing by his child/children. Dude, u can't equate a mortal with an immortal. You see, if it is said we are children, it is that we are the created in servitude to the Creator. So a Creator swearing by his creation meant for service, is illogical, compared to a parent swearing by a child. Let me ask u this question. Do you think it'd be right for a King to swear by his servant?

Think dude. . .

olabowale:


Quote (1) I did not ask you to validate Muhammad (AS). His Lord already has done it.

Quote (2) Again, all the white people I do business with in your faded glorious England, and all over the world and 'ol USA quite understand me. I write contracts and deal with Prime banks and they do appreciate my input. I can see how you will be able to "get me". Afterall you believe that you are right and their is no possibility that you may be wrong.

Quote (3) You are a Medical Doctor and you will not the least amount of sincerity that Medical textbook on any topics and procedure or treatment of any disease has not been refined/improved upon, in the past 500 years.

@Olabowale:
Response to Quote 1: The Lord says to us in 1st John 4:1 that: "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world." So why should I not validate Muhammed? I have validated and tested him from reading about him and his theology of Islam and you very well know my opinion. I validated the doctrine of grace and mercies of God through Jesus Christ; and the result was I gave my whole life, body and soul to Jesus Christ as my Lord and Saviour; he is inviting all reading me and the whole world to him. Why not try and validate him, he does not mind!! After all He said in the Psalms 34: 8 that: "O taste (i.e try me or validate me) and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him."

Response to Quote 2: The fact that I said I find it difficult to understand your flow of writing does not mean I am saying you don't know how to write, before you start lecturing on your global business contacts; all he best!. Probably that's your style of writing; even there are professors whose style of writing might be different from mainstream. Different personality, different writing style. On the other hand, I KNOW AND BELIEVE that I am NOT wrong; it is the word of God from the scriptures and I choose to believe it. I have absolutely NO DOUBT in the inerrancy of the bible scriptures or divinity of Lord Jesus Christ, etc. Bible said in James 1:8 that: "A double minded man (i.e a doubtful man) is unstable in all his ways."

Response to Quote 3: I wonder why or how you can write something as absurd as this!!! Where did you get this from? Oh! let me hazard a guess-- from the Quran?!! It is very very wrong. In fact, thousands of procedures/techniques useful less than 5 years ago have been rendered useless now. I don't need to start naming them because it's absolutely not necessary and not related or germain to the issue here. New techniques for treatment, diagnosis are constantly being developed.

@Havila: Its surprising to learn that Jesus has something to do with the Psalm. I thought that is the book given to Daud. Yet the christians say that he was a killer and a usurper who coned a man out of his wife. Whenever it benefited Christians, they claim him as the father of Jesus, attaching Jesus to him through Jesse.

Havila, the truth is I do not care about absurdities. I have already validated Jesus, son of Mary as my leader, a noble prophet (AS). The rest is gravy. I do not eat it.

I want you to take one thing away from our dialogue; Since we are perfect, and not from the same cloth, you must try to adjust to people around the world, based on their culture and position in that culture. For example, Chinese hierrachial people look at thing differently that Japanese and so others are even more diverse. Indias behave somewhat differently than Pakistani.
Allah says in the Qur'an that Icreat you into tribes and nations, so that you may know one another. So within the Yorubas, or even from the family, you develop varied relationship in different degrees with the members. Some you are closer to than another. In Nigeria or society that will consider you a foreigner, yet you find from this group good and strong relationship. You see you must learn to deal with people in a manner that will not make anyone thinks that you dispespect them or disregard them. They may thing that one is arrogant. And reputation goes a long way, it is what you are remembered by.

@olabowale:

dude, you haven't responded to my question.

Besides Christians didn't "attach" Jesus to David, He came from the lineage of David. Pls read the beginning of the Book of Matthews, where Jesus' genealogy was stated. And again, JC had already been prophesied of in the Psalms. Go learn some.

@olabowale:

dude, you haven't responded to my question.

Besides Christians didn't "attach" Jesus to David, He came from the lineage of David. Pls read the beginning of the Book of Matthews, where Jesus' genealogy was stated. And again, JC had already been prophesied of in the Psalms. Go learn some.

@gbade.x: Again, I am asking you to post your question(s), back to me. I reminded you that I checked your recent entries and I did not find a clear question that I need to answer. Please help me here.

The Islamic view of Daud is in the Qur'an and Hadith and Stories of the Prophets. This view is difference from that of Biblical David in many instances. I am now going to concentrate on Bible David in relationship with Bible Jesus, who is difference from Islamic Isa bin mariam (AS).

David was an adulterer and killed husband in order to covet the wife. Therefore the conclusion here is that if Jesus is from his lineage, then Jesus is from the lineage of an evil and ruthless killer, who coned a husband out of his wife by sending him off to war where he got killed. Also he was punished by his wife and son publicly as if in a public square/amphitheater, full of people, adults and children watching, so as to shame this forefather of Jesus! Now tell me, will you, do you think the forefather (Bible David), with this kind of evil and humiliation hanging over his head, will receive the mercy of God, since he is humiliated on this earth, it may be that he will be humiliated in the day of Judgement as well. The chance is at least 50/50.

In the Bible you have a statement that the sin of the father will be visited on the son even to the (3 to 9 generations?). Is Jesus then save from the visitation and transfer of the punishment of sin of David on him? I am just trying to use your Bible to educate you to critical and practical thinking. Don't think I am in the same mindset. I revere Daud, Isa bin Mariam as much as I revere Muhammadibn Abdullah (AS to all of them). I may be direct here, but ain't it the truth?

olabowale:

@Havila:
Quote 1: Its surprising to learn that Jesus has something to do with the Psalm. I thought that is the book given to Daud. Yet the christians say that he was a killer and a usurper who coned a man out of his wife. Whenever it benefited Christians, they claim him as the father of Jesus, attaching Jesus to him through Jesse.

Quote 2: I want you to take one thing away from our dialogue; Since we are perfect, and not from the same cloth, you must try to adjust to people around the world, based on their culture and position in that culture. For example, Chinese hierrachial people look at thing differently that Japanese and so others are even more diverse. Indias behave somewhat differently than Pakistani.

Quote 3: Allah says in the Qur'an that I created you into tribes and nations, so that you may know one another. So within the Yorubas, or even from the family, you develop varied relationship in different degrees with the members. Some you are closer to than another. In Nigeria or society that will consider you a foreigner, yet you find from this group good and strong relationship. You see you must learn to deal with people in a manner that will not make anyone thinks that you dispespect them or disregard them. They may thing that one is arrogant.

@Olabowale:
I am going to respond to your entries above in reverse order, because I'll like to spend some time 'educating' you on the first quote and God will then give you understanding and conviction in Jesus name, Amen.

Respose to Quote 3 & 2: You see, with all due respect to your age, I was not born yesterday too. This is an anonymous online forum where we all come to rub mind, agree to disagree or disagree to agree etc based on our different convictions  and opinions. I have been living and working in multi-cultural and ethnically diverse environments for years and I will like you to know that the foundation of any successful relationship in such a setting is "MUTUAL" respect. I will suggest you investigate the true meaning of 'mutual' according to your own conviction not by my own understanding.
On the other hand, when it comes to the issue of faith; it is a matter of "convicition, spiritual discernment  and beliefs" which is ones personal opinion. I have every right to accept or refuse to accept; critically evalute; reject or even ridicule another 'opinion' with evidences; that right is predicated in freedom of speech and expression which is at risk globally now because of intolerace from Islamic extremist who must be confronted and fought to the last man until their ideology of hate and intolerance is either changed or 'removed.' In addition; now to my faith, personally there is nothing like being "politically-correct", it is a 'smuck' way of 'compromise' and there is no compromise in declaring the message of the hidden wisdom of God that has been revealed to us through Christ to the glory of God and that is why we are where we are now.

Response to Quote 1: I now really understand the root of all your 'questions', disagreement and bewilderment about the Bible, Christianity, etc. Spiritual things require spiritual insights and not limited human wisdom.
The entire BIBLE, from Genesis or "Bereshit" in Hebrews to the book of Revelations, IS ALL ABOUT JESUS CHRIST. The Bible is the greatest book I have ever and will ever read; and the greatest book ever written. In it, God Himself speaks to men. It offers comfort in sorrow; guidance in confusion; ideas or suggestions in problems; convict us of sins; exposes us to divine grace and mercies; and gives lifelong inspiration for every need.
The ONE and ONLY great THEME or PARADIGM of the Bible is the Lord Jesus Christ and His work of Redemption for mankind. The person and work of Jesus Christ are promised, prophesied, and pictured in ALL the various books and symbols of the Old Testament or 'Taurat'. The Lord Jesus Christ is revealed, in all of His truth and beauty, in the Gospels; and the true full meaning of His life, death and resurrection are then explained in the Epistles. His glorious coming again to the earth in the future is unmistakable foretold in the book of Revelations. Thus the greatest purpose of the written Word of God, the Bible, is to reveal the LIVING WORD OF GOD, THE LORD JESUS CHRIST himself. (Why not read John Chapter 1 vs 1-18 with insight and a validating mind again)
This is the wisdom of God, which He predetermined before the world, but is now revealed to us for glory by His Spirit.
You are surprised that Jesus is from the lineage of David, a man favoured by God!! I hope you wont vomit when I tell you that also in that lineage was a Harlot called Rahab!!! Our God is a God of mercy and grace, not a God works and self-righteous piety, there is NOBODY he cannot use. We do not behead or amputate prostitutes, adulterers, thiefs, etc as prescribe by allah to muhammed in the cave, because Jesus Christ has suffered for all sins; He forgives and forgets if only you acknowledge, confess and repent of sins and gives the power to overcome sinful desires and live a life of victory  as you journey with him. This is Christianity: It is LIFE IN JESUS CHRIST, not a RELIGION.

Great!!!, Havila.
You couldn't have said it better.
Christ was the plan from the very beginning.

This is that passage from the New King James(Easier English)

[b]Jhn 1:1   IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jhn 1:2   He was in the beginning with God.
Jhn 1:3   All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
Jhn 1:4   In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
Jhn 1:5   And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend* it.
Jhn 1:6   There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
Jhn 1:7   This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe.
Jhn 1:8   He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
Jhn 1:9   That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.*
Jhn 1:10   He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
Jhn 1:11   He came to His own,* and His own did not receive Him.
Jhn 1:12   But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
Jhn 1:13   who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Jhn 1:14   And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
Jhn 1:15   John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.'"
Jhn 1:16   And* of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace.
Jhn 1:17   For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
Jhn 1:18   No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son,* who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him [/b]

Or maybe the NIV.

Olabowole says there are many "interpretations"of the Bible,he may have a chance to compare them now

[b]Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Jhn 1:2 He was with God in the beginning.

Jhn 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Jhn 1:4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men.

Jhn 1:5 The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood* it.

Jhn 1:6 There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John.

Jhn 1:7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe.

Jhn 1:8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.

Jhn 1:9 The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.*

Jhn 1:10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.

Jhn 1:11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.

Jhn 1:12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God–

Jhn 1:13 children born not of natural descent,* nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

Jhn 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,* who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Jhn 1:15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ ”

Jhn 1:16 From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another.

Jhn 1:17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Jhn 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,*,*who is at the Father's side, has made him known.
[/b]

or maybe he'll prefer the King James"interpretation"

[b]Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jhn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Jhn 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Jhn 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Jhn 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name [was] John.
Jhn 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all [men] through him might believe.
Jhn 1:8 He was not that Light, but [was sent] to bear witness of that Light.
Jhn 1:9 [That] was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
Jhn 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Jhn 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
Jhn 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Jhn 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Jhn 1:15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
Jhn 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
Jhn 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, [but] grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Jhn 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him]. [/b]

@Havila: Thank you for your response. I for one agree that 'politically correctness' is unacceptable and it is a sign of hypocracy. We both agree on something. i also have realised that I need to delete my age from my personal data, so that we can both annonymous. Now to both of you and babyosisi, I thank you again for being firm on your belief, supporting each other as appropriate.

Muhammad (AS) said that those who are good before accepting Islam, are the same that are good in Islam. What this means is that you become improved as you pracice Islam more consistently. You see this amongst the American black, the caribbeans, etc. Some used to to be hardcore, now are the best of their communities and good citizenries of their countries. I know and they all say it is ISLAM that remolded them. It changes heart. For me, I used to trade bank papers, big time, having accounts in the top world banks. But when I heard about Riba and its consequences, I stopped. Zina too, was like a second nature to most people. It is Islam that got rid of its love from the breast of man.

Now to your response, Havila, I like you. Afterall, you always have something to say, a verse here, a verse there, to support your view point. I remember that I read 'The Drummer Boy" by Nkwesi. It was a good and interesting story. But it was a fiction. That is the reality of the Book. Your last entry like a conclusion of a thesis/experiment. You fail to provide apparatus, procedure, observations, inferences, etc, etc. If any muslims were to present islam like that, one should ask the Question, proof it.

Today you have the exact recitation of Qur'an as it was recited, the very first time, during the life of Muhammad. All the essential places and structures are intact and available. The Ka'aba for example, is a place where the hunter and hunted of all aminals come to circle/circumbulate, yet they will never attack each other, nor is ever any droppings permitted! Ask your associates in medicine. Some of them are muslims. You have Zam Zam water quenching the thirst of Million arount the world. The Hajj is the first United nation of the world.

I agree with you that you are strong, but on what ground, Reality or Memorex?

@Olabowale,
This is what I said about your writing: it is almost impossible to get a consistent 'theme' of whatever you are really saying. You started off with stories of African Americans who became muslims, then veered off to Cyprian Ekwensi and I think you asked me for scriptural backing--so what is the purpose of John 1 vs 1-18 I referred you to and beautifully posted in 3 versions by Babyosisi? That provided an infallible backing for that submission in all it's glory. Then again, you took a detour to Kabba and hunting and hunted animals plus a 'pure water' called Zamzam water. That is why I always list your statements in quotes to respond to them differently. However, multi-thematic writings as such usually leads to offtopic discussions in most cases; but I know that different personality have different writing styles. Your writing in 'poetry' style is probably influenced by reading of the quran which also has such dominant 'poetry' structure. 

I don't have a computer chip or memorex in my head. I read the word of God to have a personal relationship with God, understand his ways and live my life according to his principles with His grace, mercies and help. You see, God is not a respecter of titles or riches or positions or power; but He respects and honours principles and commitment. The Lord told us in Matthew 4:4 that: 'Man must not LIVE by bread alone but by EVERY word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." We also know that the words of God ",,,,,they are spirit, and they are life" (John 5:63). The Bible is not a list of do's and don't's or stories concoted in a cave, it is the philosophy of living a victorious life from God's point of view: there is nothing that has happened, is happening, or will happen in human life that has not been revealed in the Bible, but it takes the Spirit of God to unravel it to a discerning mind. This why I let you have scriptural backing for almost every sentence or statement, so you can know the wisdom is not mine, but from the living God. And I always encourage others to do so. He is A LIVING GOD!!!

Dear brothers and sisters,,

I am referring to Muslims on this thread. Please stop responding to these gays, they have nothing concrete to say. Christianity is  a way of falsehood, delivered and packaged through a worthless novel called the book. How will My God be the same as theirs when he could be made in form of a graven image and bowed to. Ask the hypocrites, if they serve the same God as the jews. Or rather if catholics, mormons, Anglicans, jehovah Witenesses, and the other denominations serve the same God. truth has come to prevail over falsehood. You may be born again many times but never die without being a muslim.

@nyabinghi,

nyabinghi:

Dear brothers and sisters,,

I am referring to Muslims on this thread. Please stop responding to these gays, they have nothing concrete to say.

It's really amazing that "gays" have been giving concrete answers and all you can offer are the invectives.

nyabinghi:

Christianity is  a way of falsehood, delivered and packaged through a worthless novel called the book.

Yet, it is this same "novel" that Muhammad said Allah sent down before the Qur'an.

nyabinghi:

How will My God be the same as theirs when he could be made in form of a graven image and bowed to.

Well, you ask a very good question here. No one can make God into a graven image; but what image do Muslims bow down to and kiss when during their pilgrimage (hajj) to Mecca? What image is the black stone that Muslims bow down to?

nyabinghi:

Ask the hypocrites, if they serve the same God as the jews.

We do. Now ask Muhammad if he claimed to serve a different God from Jews and Christians from the Qur'an. Did he not claim the following? -- "Say: Will ye dispute with us about Allah, seeing that He is our Lord and your lord; that we are responsible for our doings and ye for yours; and that We are sincere (in our faith) in Him?" (Qur'an 2:139).

If Muhammad claimed to be serving the same 'God', then your rants here are pronouncing Muhammad's Allah as the graven image that informs your quarrel.

nyabinghi:

Or rather if catholics, mormons, Anglicans, jehovah Witenesses, and the other denominations serve the same God.

Or rather, if the following denominations in Islam are serving the same Allah preached by Muhammad:

Hashamiya / Taraqibiyah - They Predicate a body to Allah and also allege Prophet (pbuh) of disobedience to Allah.

Zarariyah - They believed that Allah did not live nor had any attributes till He created for Himself life and His attributes.

Younasiyah - They believe that Allah is borne by bearers of His Throne, though He is stronger than they.

Shaibaniyah / Mashbiyah - They believe Allah resembles His creatures.

Islam has more denominations each saying different things from what Muhammad and the Qur'an teach; and yet you can see the denominations in Christianity and pretend that denominations do not exist in Islam. Sad.

nyabinghi:
truth has come to prevail over falsehood. You may be born again many times but never die without being a muslim.

The truth is that truly born again believers in Jesus Christ are not promised any HELL; unlike in Islam where Allah has promised an irrevokable decree to make every Muslim ENTER hell fire (Qura'n 19:71). This is one reason among many why true believers in Jesus Christ would never consider dying as Muslims.

nyabinghi:

Dear brothers and sisters,,

I am referring to Muslims on this thread. Please stop responding to these gays, they have nothing concrete to say. Christianity is a way of falsehood, delivered and packaged through a worthless novel called the book. How will My God be the same as theirs when he could be made in form of a graven image and bowed to. Ask the hypocrites, if they serve the same God as the jews. Or rather if catholics, mormons, Anglicans, jehovah Witenesses, and the other denominations serve the same God. truth has come to prevail over falsehood. You may be born again many times but never die without being a muslim.

looks like someone's been stung by a bee
sorry o
e kpele

nyabinghi:

Dear brothers and sisters,,

I am referring to Muslims on this thread. Please stop responding to these gays, they have nothing concrete to say. Christianity is a way of falsehood, delivered and packaged through a worthless novel called the book. How will My God be the same as theirs when he could be made in form of a graven image and bowed to. Ask the hypocrites, if they serve the same God as the jews. Or rather if catholics, mormons, Anglicans, jehovah Witenesses, and the other denominations serve the same God. truth has come to prevail over falsehood. You may be born again many times but never die without being a muslim.

Dying as a muslim is the fastest route to hell. If in doubt please read Quran 19: 71 for allah has decreed it so.

@nyabinghi,

Wetin these people do you so? Please excuse my grins anywhere you see them; but I can't help the moment when I read your vexations and attacks against Christianity when you haven't thoroughly grasped your own.

Check this one:

bari_kade:


Zarariyah - They believed that Allah did not live nor had any attributes till He created for Himself life and His attributes.

Shaibaniyah / Mashbiyah - They believe Allah resembles His creatures.

Are these not serious issues that should be of some concern to you before complaining about the denominations in Christianity?

Quote from olabowale 20/2006

David was an adulterer and killed husband in order to covet the wife. Therefore the conclusion here is that if Jesus is from his lineage, then Jesus is from the lineage of an evil and ruthless killer, who coned a husband out of his wife by sending him off to war where he got killed. Also he was punished by his wife and son publicly as if in a public square/amphitheater, full of people, adults and children watching, so as to shame this forefather of Jesus! Now tell me, will you, do you think the forefather (Bible David), with this kind of evil and humiliation hanging over his head, will receive the mercy of God, since he is humiliated on this earth, it may be that he will be humiliated in the day of Judgement as well. The chance is at least 50/50.

The above is quite interesting and instead of  u christisns presenting a knoeledgable argument ,u keep diverting and acting as if u did not see this, [quote][/quote]

@samsonola,

samsonola:

The above is quite interesting and instead of  u christisns presenting a knoeledgable argument ,u keep diverting and acting as if u did not see this,

If you want to discuss it, please do. Trying to be apologetic for what you can't deal with is not the way to enter a discussion. People have presented "knowledgeable argument" on your query - what have you or olabowale presented that can be termed "knowledgeable"?

Do you care to share something about the topic of the thread that is remotely close to "knowledge"?

@poster

This is silly! Language is a part of the culture of a people and Christ is all things to all men, so that he might save them. What he is saying is that when he is being worshiped by Arabs he is Arab. So when he is Arab, and their language is Arabic, God's name is Allah. When he is with English, and their language is English, God's name is God. You cannot express spirituality outside of culture and Christ can adapt to any culture as long as you follow his laws. People have to learn how to separate culture from spirituality.

1 Corinthians 9:20-22

20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

Recent discussions on the forum and others seem to refer to our God as the same as allah, all in the spirit of interfaith understanding. This is a very dangerous inference and people need to beware. Some muslims have said all sort about horrible things about Jesus in view of the recent statement of the Holy Pontiff, yet we will not carry arms or kill but we will pray and still peacefully defend our doctrine.
Our God, Jehovah, Yahweh, the Alpha and Omega who came down to earth to redeem us from our sins as Jesus the Christ, is not the same as allah.
(1) Why do muslim face the east to pray? they say they are facing mecca!!, but even muslims in far east still face east (ideally they should face west if they want to face mecca; and the ones in north pole and south pole should face maybe south-east and north-east respectively if they want to face mecca) But they all face east all over the world- it is not that they are facing mecca but rather worshipping the sun. Read Ezekiel Chapter 8 vs 14 to 17.[i][/i]
(2) Why is the islamic symbols the crescent (half moon) and a star?
(3) Why do muslims always wait for the appearance of moon before they can start or end their so called ramadan at this time and age of 21st century? The reason is because their's is an idolatrous religion that worship the consterllations, i.e the sun, the moon and the stars, no wonder the constant urge to violence and shedding of blood, because sacrifice must be made to their master in "hades".
(4) Do you know that the black cloth used to cover the big stone in mecca has it's route in ancient egyptian magic arts? All this takes a deeper spiritual understanding and we must continue to pray for the salvation of their souls and continue to bombard your neighbouhood, Europe, Nigeria, Africa, the middle east etc with gospel of Jesus through satellite TV, missionary works, evangelism and charity etc. Their souls are still precious to God and we must take the gospel of Jesus to them. Pray for your muslim friends, for their eyes which has been blinded from knowledge of truth by the rulers of darkness of this world to open. Remember, JEHOVAH is NOT allah!! don't be deceived!!. Remember he is a jealous God, and we must have no other God beside him; this also means don't call Him by a name that is not His, or think He is who he is not. Pray for the peace of Jerusalem! Shalom

Allah is God of Muhammed daddy, that is why he (Father of Mohammed) is called abdulah. So if Islamic Quaran acknowledge Mohammed as its founder. Then is it not logical that Allah is a forceful imposition on a nation by a powerful terrorist?

Allah is not the same. As we all can see that today how the same worshipers of allah are using force on every life.