@Nutter,

If truth be told, the real reason why TayoD won't list the faults of the US is that things like hypocrisy and double standards will make the list.

Very interesting discussions indeed and very revealing too.

@Afam,

Afam:

@Nutter,

If truth be told, the real reason why TayoD won't list the faults of the US is that things like hypocrisy and double standards will make the list.

Very interesting discussions indeed and very revealing too.

Brother, you are entirely correct. That’s why I asked him to list them. He probably started out and then realised that it did his position little good to continue. Like I said to him:

My feeling on this is that were you to provide an itemization of said faults, it would promptly become apparent that they align very closely with the issues many have taken the position of disgust against. A position, I remind you, which you immediately labelled ‘US Bashing’.

Some people just find it difficult to tell it as it is.

@TayoD,

Mate, I think we are done.

Jesus!

Me and Nutter on the same ship? Wow. Wake me up when September ends. . .

@Afam,

You have consistently proved you have nothing to say other than rubbish.  Who is being hypocritical when the topic is all about how the developing nations can become better and all that is said is that the U.S. is responsible.   Do you know the meaning of the word 'hypocricy' at all?  I have mentioned that you need to prove that it is only the U.S. that is guilty of all these 'crimes' you claim, and that others crying foul are free of such malaise.  Until you do that, then the nations that are championing the fight against the U.S. are the ones that are hypocritical.  The term hypocrite can also be extended to you for claiming to stand on the side of justice, which you do only for some and not for all.

@Mariory,

The solution isin't faire trade. Fair trade deals are part of the solution. The real issue we must address in Nigeria is that of corruption and tribalism.

I do agree with you here.  While they will like to blame the U.S for everything, they will not look inwards and see what they are doing to themselves.  But since there is a common stance to blame the U.S., they all go on that easy route and continue further in their sorry state.

EFCC recently said over $20-trillion have been stolen from Nigeria between 1960 and 2005.  Hear him: "About $20-trillion had been stolen from Nigeria’s coffers by leaders who had access to the nation’s money between 1960 and 2005.  This was disclosed by Dapo Olorunyomi, chief of staff to the chairman of the Economic and Financial Crimes Commission (EFCC) at a function in Lagos.
Olorunyomi, who was speaking at the yearly Dinner/Re-union of the Lagos State chapter of the University of Ilorin Alumni Association, said the figure was sourced from the records of the United Nations Development Programme (UNDP).
Olorunyomi said the amount was six times the amount needed to rebuild Europe after world war two.
The EFCC boss said it was saddening to know that the bulk of the $20-trillion stolen came after year 2000.
"It is rather appalling that as at year 2000, record showed that $100-billion had been stolen, with an external debt of $33-billion", Olorunyomi said.
Olorunyomi said the central problem facing the nation was that of governance, "Leaders are just looting, not caring for the people that they are expected to provide basic amenities for".
He challenged Nigerians to wake up to their responsibilities, "as the looting spree of our leaders has now constituted itself into a national problem, which is very bad for our economy. I want the public to help in the fight against economic and financial crimes, please, do not leave it for the EFCC only".
He encouraged the association members to go into their offices and homes to impact the drive to do away with economic crimes in the society.
This is coming at a time when there are allegations against the president and his vice, bothering on economic crimes.
Source: BusinessDAY"  
Now can you imagine what could have been done with that money to develop our nation?  But since they are now trying to blind us from what the real problems are, they choose to go the route of "it's the U.S."  

@otokx,
You need to understand that the U.S. must first show responsibilities towards its citizens before it does to the rest of the world.  That the Government subsidises agriculture only shows that it is a responsible government.  Until a nation has food security, it will be on the very brink of anihilation in the event of a global trade war.  The solution to this is for the other governments to live up to their responsibilities to their citizens and subsidise as well if necessary.  But you also fail to state here that every goods and foodstuff coming into the U.S. from African countries are exempted from tarrifs at the U.S. Ports.  This was done to stimulate more trade and to encourage African Enterpreneurs.  But the down side of this which the Nigerian government has failed to tackle, is the fact that many would rather send their garri to the U.S. and get paid (though some will like us to believe that the U.S. gets them for free), than to make the produce available in Naija for less.  This means garri is now scarcer in naija and more expensive than it should be.  Cassava growers will like to export them to China and the rest of Asia than to sel;l them in the local markets for less.  This action has led to more food insecurity in that country.  Now do you blame the U.S. for that as well?

Mariory:

It appears you blame the white race for everything. There are countries in South America and S.E Asia, in the Middle East to Northern Africa, and of course the best example of all. South Africa and Ghana. These countries are/were subject to the same unfair trade rules that Nigeria was/is subject to. These countries at some point along our history as an independent nation surpassed Nigeria. What did these countries do that we didn't? What do we do that they don't? The real problem we have in Nigeria are Nigerians.

The solution isin't faire trade. Fair trade deals are part of the solution. The real issue we must address in Nigeria is that of corruption and tribalism.

i agree, fair trade is not the only solution. but it is a major part of the solution. it can go a long way to eradicate established poverty. when poverty is removed, people can vote from their concience, judges decide  cases based on concience. no more hero worshipping of hudlums who have money. professors will have meaning. better people will be able to handle the govt. but with poverty, few rich fools control everybody. a thief is giving an honor in church and doctorates by universities. they pay poor people to rig elections and so a vicious cycle of corruption and bad leadership ensues. it is complex brother but at the bottom of all the misrule, bad leadership, corruption etc is one word POVERTY remove it, even the bad leadership you talk about becomes controlled by the people.
today, people graduate from schools-no jobs, and some hoodlums(political touts) are rich. they become heros/models for the youth. get rich quick becomes the order of the day. what kind of society will such a system breed. but u can see that all these problems emanate from one fundamental disaster-structural poverty.

now u may get my annoyance that this structural poverty is sealed by unfair trade deals.
i'm not happy.

@ Nutter,

I think you need to show that other nations are not guilty like the U.S. before you can regard my statement of "U.S bashing" as being out of order.

Afam:

Bush has no business in governance and he is responsible for the increase in hatred against the West especially the US based on his hypocrisies and double standards.

We need more courageous leaders like Chavez and the president of Iran even though I disagree with him on the destruction of Israel.

Funny enough, a free and fair democracy brought the Hamas government into power and yet the West does not like that type of democracy, a democracy that does not take instructions from the white house or 10 downing street.

This thread should really have ended here. . .

Here is what Toshman who started this thread had to say:
the question now is, is America spreading democracy (as they say) or is it 21st century imperial expansion?

give your thoughts

And here is what I had to say:

The U.S has done more to help humanity than any other nation in the world today.  They have shown they value the life and interest of their citizens only second to the nation of Isreal.  Agreed they may be imperial, but tell me what other nation that isn't.  The only reason why these folks are shouting imperialism is because the U.S. is more successful than them at the game and not because they care a hoot about the other nations.  The way the so-called champions against the US imperialism are treating their own citizens tells us this much.   I hope you do not think that Iran, Russia, Syria, Venezuela and the likes are free of imperialism!!!  If they are not, then what gives them the right to attack the morality of the U.S.?

But what exactly are you trying to say.  that other nations are free of imperialism?

@TayoD,

This thread has given the world ample opportunity to see you for who you really are. You think that brushing aside the issue of double standard by the US will help your position, but alas, it has done you in.

I am still waiting for the faults, abi you don forget?

In my lifetime, I have come across a lot of people that are even afraid of themselves, always trying to live false lives, trying to desperately paint a different picture of reality.

Your blind and wrong blanket support for the US regardless of its shortcomings is very very condemnable and a shameless act by a Nigerian who may be portraying us as egg heads.

Just needed to add this - YOU LIE about you response to toshman's post because your first response was

+++++++++++++++++++++

TayoD (m)
Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 487

Online

Re: Hugo Chavez: Matters Arising
« #9 on: September 22, 2006, 06:57 PM »

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Hmm. Another thread for U.S. bashing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Report to moderator Logged

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For in him we live, and move, and have our being - Acts 17:28

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You should be bold enough to accept responsibilities of your actions whether right or wrong, that is what decent people do!!!

Trying to lie through your teeth by claiming to have responded in a certain way (way too different from your actual response), really unfortunate.

@ Afam, may I ask you to be still? There is no need for further carrying on in this thread. Let me repeat myself:

Afam:

Bush has no business in governance and he is responsible for the increase in hatred against the West especially the US based on his hypocrisies and double standards.

We need more courageous leaders like Chavez and the president of Iran even though I disagree with him on the destruction of Israel.

Funny enough, a free and fair democracy brought the Hamas government into power and yet the West does not like that type of democracy, a democracy that does not take instructions from the white house or 10 downing street.

This thread should really have ended here!

Chxta:

Jesus!

Me and Nutter on the same ship? Wow. Wake me up when September ends. . .

This Chxta. Are you on drugs or something?

Chxta:


"Funny enough, a free and fair democracy brought the Hamas government into power and yet the West does not like that type of democracy, a democracy that does not take instructions from the white house or 10 downing street." - Afam

This thread should really have ended here. . .

Exactly!

TayoD:

@ Nutter,

I think you need to show that other nations are not guilty like the U.S. before you can regard my statement of "U.S bashing" as being out of order.

Please explain to me why I should answer your question when you have refused to answer mine. You cannot invert this process any more than a farmer can reap before sowing.

@Afam,

Where did you find me support the US or Bush blanketly? Haven't I pointed out the fact that the US is imperialist? Or must I condemn the US totally because you do?

There is never a situation in life where a man or nation gets better until they take therir future in their hands and chart a course for themselves. Blaming the US is an escapist strategy and it will never bring about the desired change.

@ Afam
 I dont really think u are making much sense from your posts

Bush has no business in governance and he is responsible for the increase in hatred against the West especially the US based on his hypocrisies and double standards.

Bush just happens to be a victim of circumstance.Right from the word go,every American president has had to contend wit one foreign policy problem or the other.With JFK it was the Bay of Pigs,USSR, Cold war etc.With Bush snr it was Saddam.Bush is doing what he has to do to ensure world peace, Arabs are known to be extremists and every one knows the ill will they have for the west did start today,

We need more courageous leaders like Chavez and the president of Iran even though I disagree with him on the destruction of Israel

I beg to differ on Ahmadinejad.That guy is a raving lunatic who wouldnt hesitate to arm even al Queida if given the chance.Such extremism is really uncalled for

@nutter,

When I said the US was imperialist, don't you find that an answer to your question?  Or is imperialism a virtue to you?

Nutter:

This Chxta. Are you on drugs or something?

I must hand it to the British, they have some interesting variants of what we call paraga back home. . .

TayoD:

@Afam,

Where did you find me support the US or Bush blanketly? Haven't I pointed out the fact that the US is imperialist? Or must I condemn the US totally because you do?

There is never a situation in life where a man or nation gets better until they take therir future in their hands and chart a course for themselves. Blaming the US is an escapist strategy and it will never bring about the desired change.

This one here would be a good example.

Chxta,

No vex. It's just that it is hard seeing people trying to pull wool over our eyes in this age and time.

Until I read something new on the topic, I will not respond, just read and enjoy.

Later.

@Chxta,

That I condemn Chavez for that unruly behavior in the UN means that I am in blanket support of the US? If that is the way you guys think on this thread, then it explains just how difficult it is to make you see the half-truths in your positions.

Hugoboi:

@ Afam
I don't really think u are making much sense from your posts

On the contrary, the most sensible post in this entire thread came from Afam.

Bush just happens to be a victim of circumstance.Right from the word go,every American president has had to contend wit one foreign policy problem or the other.With JFK it was the Bay of Pigs,USSR, Cold war etc.With Bush snr it was Saddam.Bush is doing what he has to do to ensure world peace, Arabs are known to be extremists and every one knows the ill will they have for the west did start today,

Arabs are known to be extremists.
Blacks are known to be stupid.
Chinese are known to be wicked.
Dutchmen are known to be racist.
Englishmen are known to be drunks.
Frenchmen are known to be lazy.
Germans are known to be genocidal.
Hausamen are known to be dunces.
Igbomen are known to be crooks.
Jews are known to be cheats. (I love that one, ever read Mein Kampf?)
Koreans are known to be Japanese slaves.
Lagosians are known to be impatient.
Mexicans are known to be druggies.
Nigerians. . . (well our own plenty).
Omanese are known to be sly.
Pakis are known to hate women.
Qataris are like Omanese, sly.
Russians are known to be godless.
Senegalese are known to hate Nigerians.
Togolese are known to be cobblers, housegirls and mechanics.
United States of Americans (pardon my bad) are known to be daft (like their president).
Vanuatuans are known to be cannibals.
West Indians are known to be sexually bankrupt.
Yorubamen are known to be cowards.
Zulus are known to be murderers.

Any more stereotypes?

I beg to differ on Ahmadinejad.That guy is a raving lunatic who wouldnt hesitate to arm even al Queida if given the chance.Such extremism is really uncalled for

Let us assume that all Mahmoud Ahmadinejad wants is the destruction of Israel (as against the advancement of his people, and the removal of US dominance of his region), do you really for one minute believe that he speaks for every and all Iranian, let alone Arab? Ever heard of Akbar Rafsanjani?

TayoD:

@nutter,
When I said the US was imperialist, don't you find that an answer to your question?  Or is imperialism a virtue to you?

You are just shuffling from foot to foot. Let me see your list OR please itemize the imperialistic activities of the US. Until that is done, I'm afraid I'll just keep schtum.

Chxta:

I must hand it to the British, they have some interesting variants of what we call paraga back home. . .

What the heck is 'paraga'?

What the heck is 'paraga'

i wonda?

Paraga: Commonly found in the area formerly known as Bendel State: A strong local drink. Usually makes the drinker feel somewhere above God in the scheme of things. . .

mo' like weed i guess!!

It smacks of hypocrisy that thousands of people are so quick to blame US "imperialism" for the world's problems and yet are queueing at 5am at the US embassy to obtain US visas, are filling out immigrant visa applications every year to reach that same US!

Let us take a look at the countries presently bashing the US.
Iran: Here is a nation that does not enjoy freedom of speech nor freedom of the press, a nation that is openly regarded as a state sponsor of terrorism ala hezbollah, a nation whose president openly calls for the destruction of Isreal, a nation where women are second class citizens and the president has openly called for the removal of "liberal and secular" university professors!

Venezuela: A country who is determined to use oil to influence and impose its oppinions on the world view.

David, have you ever been to Tehran?

Khomeini died 17 years ago. . .

Chxta:

Paraga: Commonly found in the area formerly known as Bendel State: A strong local drink. Usually makes the drinker feel somewhere above God in the scheme of things. . .

Ah! I see.

davidylan:

Venezuela: A country who is determined to use oil to influence and impose its oppinions on the world view.

. . . and I suppose the US doesn't use its military might and financial clout to do same.

Chxta:

David, have you ever been to Tehran?

Khomeini died 17 years ago. . .

Dear, those statements about Iran are still as valid today, it was not Khomeini who insisted on the destruction of Isreal on national television, it was not Khomeini who called for the ouster of "liberal and secular" lecturers neither is he the one responsible for emasculating the press! I'm also sure Khomeini was not alive during the Isreal-hizbalah conflict!

Nutter:

Ah! I see.

. . . and I suppose the US doesn't use its military might and financial clout to do same.

Exactly the point, those who throw stones do not live in glass houses! Those who claim the US is an imperialist nation should first ensure they come to equity with clean hands, the likes of Ahmedinajad and Chavez are not qualified candidates to accuse the US of imperialism!

davidylan:

Dear, those statements about Iran are still as valid today, it was not Khomeini who insisted on the destruction of Isreal on national television, it was not Khomeini who called for the ouster of "liberal and secular" lecturers neither is he the one responsible for emasculating the press! I'm also sure Khomeini was not alive during the Isreal-hizbalah conflict!

Girls wear tight fitting jeans skirts along the streets of Tehran. I believe that the lack of that is one of the things you fellows complain about when you talk of lack of freedom.

There is a vibrant opposition press in Iran.

Rafsanjani is/was moderate. It is an example of a vibrabt democracy at work that when the current incumbent's term is over, he will step down and some other moderate could take over. Ahmadinajad came into office on the back of the failure of Rafsanjani's reforms, not because Iranians are all fanatics frothing at the mouth as you (and the likes) claim. But then, according to you guys, Iran is not a democracy. . .

davidylan:

Exactly the point, those who throw stones do not live in glass houses! Those who claim the US is an imperialist nation should first ensure they come to equity with clean hands, the likes of Ahmedinajad and Chavez are not qualified candidates to accuse the US of imperialism!

No, no, no. That one with soiled hands points out that another’s hands are soiled does not make the statement any less factual or worrying - just like KK calling Atiku a thief doesn't make him any less so. That is exactly the point.

Responsio superba!

Chxta:

There is a vibrant opposition press in Iran.
Rafsanjani is/was moderate. It is an example of a vibrabt democracy at work that when the current incumbent's term is over, he will step down and some other moderate could take over. Ahmadinajad came into office on the back of the failure of Rafsanjani's reforms, not because Iranians are all fanatics frothing at the mouth as you (and the likes) claim. But then, according to you guys, Iran is not a democracy. . .

I'm sure this is your idea of a "vibrant opposition press" in Iran:

Iran: Government Tightens Clamps On Press
Tuesday, September 26, 2006
Journalists in northern Iran's Gilan Province issued a statement on September 23 calling on the government to lift its recent ban on the daily "Sharq" newspaper. The plea argued that "banning a paper is tantamount to its execution." Such concerns are unlikely to resonate with President Mahmud Ahmadinejad, whose government has adopted an adversarial attitude toward the media.
Not only is the state closing newspapers that it views as insufficiently sympathetic to the government, but it is also restricting the sources they can use and the way they can cover specific subjects. The effort to shape the news is connected with governmental concern over how the public might judge its diplomatic efforts on the nuclear issue, as well as a desire to control information relating to elections scheduled for December.
The administration's actions and statements suggest that it does not expect any media criticism. Some two weeks later, the government closed the daily "Sharq" (East) and the monthlies "Nameh" (Letter), "Hafez," and "Khatereh." The Press Supervisory Board explained that in August "Sharq" had been given one month to appoint a new managing director and the newspaper replied the following month with a request for more time, ISNA reported on August 11. The ban resulted from the newspaper's failure to "reform itself," as well as its publication of a cartoon that purportedly insulted Ahmadinejad. The daily also was accused of publishing articles that insulted "religious, political, and national figures," and it was accused of "fomenting discord," IRNA reported on September 12.

-- Please view the website to read more on Iran's "vibrant opposition press!"

Iran cracks down on press
27 September 2006 16:11
Ahmadinejad's tenure has marked a turning point in press freedom, which the Society to Defend Freedom of the Press has described as "one of the darkest periods in Iranian history of journalism''. The society cautioned against the trend towards censorship and pressure on journalists.

Nutter:

No, no, no. That one with soiled hands points out that another’s hands are soiled does not make the statement any less factual or worrying - just like KK calling Atiku a thief doesn't make him any less so. That is exactly the point.

That is a point that only exists as a figment of imagination. A thief does not accuse another of stealing simply because he is the bigger thief! What is more worrying than those who deny their own citizens the right to freedom of expression and yet accuse another nation of imperialism!