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How Atheists Handle Morality In The Absence Of God - Religion (2) - Nairaland

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Re: How Atheists Handle Morality In The Absence Of God by Kay17: 1:10pm On Aug 02, 2015
elobyobi:
I'm just here to get likes for Jesus. grin
But seriously I believe the Holy Spirit is the Master of common sense. That being said, atheists will always fall short of the passmark on the morality meter.
Likes fo r Jesus, people!

Possibly Christian morality because it is unconvincing to us.

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Re: How Atheists Handle Morality In The Absence Of God by urheme: 2:22pm On Aug 02, 2015
elobyobi:
I'm just here to get likes for Jesus. grin
But seriously I believe the Holy Spirit is the Master of common sense. That being said, atheists will always fall short of the passmark on the morality meter.
Likes fo r Jesus, people!



Picture of the holy spirit or for ever remain silent.... grin

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Re: How Atheists Handle Morality In The Absence Of God by elobyobi: 3:28pm On Aug 02, 2015
urheme:




Picture of the holy spirit or for ever remain silent.... grin
wow, you just proved what I said. The Holy Spirit IS the master of common Sense. Common sense would have told u that spirits can't be photographed....
Re: How Atheists Handle Morality In The Absence Of God by urheme: 4:21pm On Aug 02, 2015
elobyobi:
wow, you just proved what I said. The Holy Spirit IS the master of common Sense. Common sense would have told u that spirits can't be photographed....



Common sense is a sense that is common, if your holy spirit is common then every one will have it,

Some christians believe holy spirit is Jesus and is God(trinity) show me the common sense here!

The affairs of men can no longer be left in the realm of common sense, what made sense to you is actually senseless to me, morals are just mere ethical claimes that appeals to the conscience, they can only be observed by all if it carries sanction for a breach thereof, men's mind differ to the extent that some are very harden, we need positive laws to curb the excesses of men in the society, this is my own common sense and not holy spirit.

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Re: How Atheists Handle Morality In The Absence Of God by Nobody: 4:46pm On Aug 02, 2015
Atheists are dumb nooks...
Re: How Atheists Handle Morality In The Absence Of God by Nobody: 5:05pm On Aug 02, 2015
crixtex:
Atheists are dumb nooks...
then u re a holy scumberg

4 Likes

Re: How Atheists Handle Morality In The Absence Of God by Nobody: 5:33pm On Aug 02, 2015
krattoss:
then u re a holy scumberg
lol... are u an atheist too?? ve u received holy knock of God before.... ori e a kpe wa ni!!
Re: How Atheists Handle Morality In The Absence Of God by LordReed(m): 6:10pm On Aug 02, 2015
johnydon22:
[b]Morality as we know it is a human concept and varies from society to society. Some rooted in the culture as we see in most religious books while others more so are rooted in empathy and intellect like we see in secular society..

Empathy is judging your actions with the feelings of others (Seeing with the eyes of others, feeling with the heart of others)

You do not need any creed or doctrine to tell you that killing your mother is wrong because if you do then it shows lack of independent ethics and moral basis even a lioness do not need you to tell it that murdering her cub is wrong.

you also do not need anybody to tell you that stoning a non-virgin bride to death (as seen in the old testament) is wrong.
Or
Killing apostates as seen in the quran is bad. . .

This shows we have an innate ability to recognize what we see to be good or not and what we think is ok for the society, you don't need anybody or book or doctrine to teach you that.

Secular definition of morality are Actions that decreases individual human suffering and/or betters societal well being, freedom, equality and justice.

Am an agnostic atheist and i recognize actions that fall within these stipulated factors, i let my empathy and compassion towards others guide my actions and this also we do without expectations of any reward after we are dead.

Morality is not distinctively Muslim, Christian or Hindu or any religion, it is a human concept and it belongs to no ism. it is not dependent on any creed, doctrine, book or supernatural for foundations because morality itself is a foundation.

What religious doctrine tag Sin has absolutely no weight on the moral weight of an action it only are actions that goes against the religious stipulated will of god whether good or bad.

Mentally, physically and emotionally we are the same. We all have the potential to great good or evil and to be overcome by disturbing emotions such as hatred, anger, suspicion, fear and greed. On the other hand if you cultivate loving kindness, compassion and concern for others there will be no room for anger, jealousy and hatred..

You do not need the concept of God or religion to have morals, if you cannot determine right from wrong then you lack empathy not religion.

And the only thing we consider good or bad are your actions towards others and the world around you.

Atheist are independent in their moral basis and also loyal to the stipulated laws of the state. . Of course i can only be sure of myself [/b]

If supposing you were born and brought up in an environment where cruelty was the "natural" way do you think you would have any empathy?
Re: How Atheists Handle Morality In The Absence Of God by johnydon22(m): 7:12pm On Aug 02, 2015
LordReed:


If supposing you were born and brought up in an environment where cruelty was the "natural" way do you think you would have any empathy?
Psychology (the study of human behaviour) is a science, so before we can make any absolute statement on that we'll first have to carry out experimentations in order to observe and then tender our postulations based on real studied and observed facts. . . . So it is not ok for me to assume up either YES or NO.

On a smaller scale; "YES". . giving an example with myself. I was born in a society where it is the norm for people to have the mindset that some people who don't believe as they do will burn in a literal fire forever, it was a normal mindset But i grew to disagree and find this idea very disturbing, barbaric and all round bad.

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Re: How Atheists Handle Morality In The Absence Of God by Joshthefirst(m): 2:57am On Aug 03, 2015
plaetton:


FundamentLly innate? shocked

You've got to be kidding, right?
That makes no sense, and cannot ever be true.

Your innate darwinian impulses cannot allow you to be innately moral.

Morality evolves along with the social evolution or social order of the community or society.
Morality as in a conscious sense of right and wrong is innate. What you call Darwinian impulses don't nullify the innate grasp of right and wrong that we have, whether we are predisposed to go the selfish way or not.
Re: How Atheists Handle Morality In The Absence Of God by malvisguy212: 10:39am On Aug 03, 2015
Kay17:
Since God does not exist, at least in our minds, I believe we atheists have a wild freedom. I am careful not to use to free will because that has it own crazy baggage.

In absence of an all seeing authority, we find ourselves being our own guides and authorities. The weakness of our will represents laxer restraints. What guidelines are necessary to create our own unique morality? What does our morality aim for, since morality is a means to a goal? Greater civilization? Excellent individuals? etc
Why do people generally think that some
actions are “right” and some actions are
“wrong,” regardless of their subjective
opinions? Why do most people believe
that it is “evil” or “wicked” (1) for an adult to torture an innocent child simply for the fun of it? (2) for a man to beat and rape a kind, innocent woman? or (3) for parents to have children for the sole
purpose of abusing them sexually every
day of their lives?

Although objective morality may be
outside the realm of the scientific
method, every rational person can know
that some actions are innately good,
while others are innately evil. the man who says that it is morally acceptable to rape little children, is just as mistaken as the man who says that 2 + 2 = 5”

Most rational people do not merely feel
like rape and child abuse may be wrong; they are wrong innately wrong. Just as two plus two can really be known to be four, every rational human can know that some things are objectively good, while other things are objectively evil. However, reason demands that OBJECTIVE GOOD AND EVIL can only exist if there is some REAL, objective point of REFERENCE.

If something (e.g., rape) can be legitimately criticized as morally wrong, then there must be an objective standard “some ‘higher law which transcends the provincial and transient’ which is other than the particular moral code and which has an obligatory character which can be recognized”
Re: How Atheists Handle Morality In The Absence Of God by Kay17: 9:34am On Nov 04, 2015
The act of murder itself and in the absence of intent and consequence, is good or bad?
Re: How Atheists Handle Morality In The Absence Of God by bytemeister(m): 1:54pm On Nov 04, 2015
timonski:
The fool says in His heart that there is no God.


and the wise says it out loud
Re: How Atheists Handle Morality In The Absence Of God by Nobody: 2:01pm On Nov 04, 2015
Kay17:
Since God does not exist, at least in our minds, I believe we atheists have a wild freedom. I am careful not to use to free will because that has it own crazy baggage.

In absence of an all seeing authority, we find ourselves being our own guides and authorities. The weakness of our will represents laxer restraints. What guidelines are necessary to create our own unique morality? What does our morality aim for, since morality is a means to a goal? Greater civilization? Excellent individuals? etc

everything you have just spouted is based on your own personal opinion and strongly held beliefs as quoted above.. how can you expect your comments to be free of agenda-based arguments... it is expected and painfully smug to even read your opinionated views..
Re: How Atheists Handle Morality In The Absence Of God by Nobody: 2:03pm On Nov 04, 2015
@kay17 believes that you need God to tell you that killing children, women and whole families as sacrifice to please God is NOT RIGHT.. you had to wait for the whitemans God to realize that.. Chief!! pull yourself back into a more informed era please.
Re: How Atheists Handle Morality In The Absence Of God by UyiIredia(m): 2:16pm On Nov 04, 2015
Idrismusty97:
Common sense will tell you not to steal or murder. And if you go out of the norms to commit these acts the long arms of the law will always catch up with you. Besides you wouldn't want to raise up your kids as a thief or murderer would you? We don't need a god or religion for morality, the world is changing. We are entering into a new era...Most irreligious countries are usually the most peaceful. E.g Denmark, Japan, Iceland etc

I used to believe that crap. Now I know better. Actually, many people in those countries are religious and peaceful AND it is a fact that USSR, Albania and China were deemed atheist states and had lots of strife.
Re: How Atheists Handle Morality In The Absence Of God by UyiIredia(m): 2:18pm On Nov 04, 2015
johnydon22:
Psychology (the study of human behaviour) is a science, so before we can make any absolute statement on that we'll first have to carry out experimentations in order to observe and then tender our postulations based on real studied and observed facts. . . . So it is not ok for me to assume up either YES or NO.

On a smaller scale; "YES". . giving an example with myself. I was born in a society where it is the norm for people to have the mindset that some people who don't believe as they do will burn in a literal fire forever, it was a normal mindset But i grew to disagree and find this idea very disturbing, barbaric and all round bad.

There is something that makes you know it's bad. What is it?
Re: How Atheists Handle Morality In The Absence Of God by johnydon22(m): 2:41pm On Nov 04, 2015
UyiIredia:


There is something that makes you know it's bad. What is it?


Its called "EMPATHY" contrasting my own feelings in relation to an action to that of others...

Your definition of a bad action may differ from mine because i only recognize actions with negative or positive effect to collective societal or individual well being promotes or is a detriment to justice, equality, freedom to be either good or bad.

I wonder what "Thing" you are referring to here... lets hear it

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Re: How Atheists Handle Morality In The Absence Of God by UyiIredia(m): 2:49pm On Nov 04, 2015
johnydon22:


Its called "EMPATHY" contrasting my own feelings in relation to an action to that of others...

Where do you get your empathy from?

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Re: How Atheists Handle Morality In The Absence Of God by johnydon22(m): 3:10pm On Nov 04, 2015
UyiIredia:


Where do you get your empathy from?


My empathy stems from my societal interactions in relation to others, maybe you should have read the post many times over ...

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Re: How Atheists Handle Morality In The Absence Of God by UyiIredia(m): 3:20pm On Nov 04, 2015
johnydon22:


My empathy stems from my societal interactions in relation to others, maybe you should have read the post many times over ...

Your empathy is an aspect of your consciousness and it is a fact that consciousness is from God.
Re: How Atheists Handle Morality In The Absence Of God by johnydon22(m): 3:22pm On Nov 04, 2015
UyiIredia:


Your empathy is an aspect of your consciousness and it is a fact that consciousness is from God.


Pheeeew i knew this was were it would land. . . . It is normal for one who think some God created everything to hold that line of thought...

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Re: How Atheists Handle Morality In The Absence Of God by BETATRON(m): 3:27pm On Nov 04, 2015
johnydon22:


Pheeeew i knew this was were it would land. . . . It is normal for one who think some God created everything to hold that line of thought...
How did the universe come to be? If no one created it?
Isn't it an acceptable fact that behind every work of art there is an artist?,behind every law there is a law maker,behind every invention there is an invention
WHY oPPOSE tHE FACT THAT BEHIND EVERY CREATION THERE IS A CREATOR?
Re: How Atheists Handle Morality In The Absence Of God by hahn(m): 3:32pm On Nov 04, 2015
UyiIredia:


Your empathy is an aspect of your consciousness and it is a fact that consciousness is from God.

Which god?
Re: How Atheists Handle Morality In The Absence Of God by BETATRON(m): 3:34pm On Nov 04, 2015
hahn:

Which god?
Chuckles..mind telling how you come into existence?
Re: How Atheists Handle Morality In The Absence Of God by hahn(m): 3:35pm On Nov 04, 2015
BETATRON:

Chuckles..mind telling how you come into existence?

Na so dem take dey answer question for your church? undecided

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Re: How Atheists Handle Morality In The Absence Of God by BETATRON(m): 3:46pm On Nov 04, 2015
hahn:


Na so dem take dey answer question for your church? undecided
What is the difference between six and half a dozen,you're trying to refute the simple truth of God existence and I only want to know why you stand firmly on the fact the there is such thing as God
Re: How Atheists Handle Morality In The Absence Of God by hahn(m): 3:47pm On Nov 04, 2015
BETATRON:

What is the difference between six and half a dozen,you're trying to refute the simple truth of God existence and I only want to know why you stand firmly on the fact the there is such thing as God

That still doesn't answer my question undecided

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Re: How Atheists Handle Morality In The Absence Of God by johnydon22(m): 3:52pm On Nov 04, 2015
BETATRON:

How did the universe come to be? If no one created it?


But that someone got to be without another creating it right? . . . The thing is not everything needs some kind of intelligent being to create, interactions of natural elements give rise to natural entities and with each resulting reaction leads to more and more reactions and actions.

I cannot claim to know how the universe came to be, it is still a subject of scientific study till today and i'd maintain i don't know than assume up answers to fill that gap..


Isn't it an acceptable fact that behind every work of art there is an artist?,

That is if you term supernovas work of art, tsunamis, blackholes. . . .

The sand dunes in the deserts

depict outstanding artistic beauty but does this mean it was done by some invisible artist in the desert?

No, it was simply an action of wind on matter (dust) in the desert, that one doesn't know what causes sand dunes doesn't mean someone drew it...


behind every law there is a law maker,behind every invention there is an invention
WHY oPPOSE tHE FACT THAT BEHIND EVERY CREATION THERE IS A CREATOR?


When one asserts natural laws they tend to forget the fact that these are in no way judicial-like laws but rather observed ways of natural manifestations.

When you assert a claim you should be able to substantiate with actual proofs not try to boycott unrelated natural entities to be works of your asserted creator-deity who remarkably needs no creator to exists.

Nobody is opposing your creator hypothesis, i regard it hypothetical and personally i'd rather trust in observed facts and established truthful approximations by systematic deduction than rely on assumptions stemming from my ignorance of how thing came to be.

It is known that Action of gravity on Matter (nebula) forms stars not some invisible deity shouting to himself..

I'd rather not fill up gaps left by ignorance with ancient superstition...

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Re: How Atheists Handle Morality In The Absence Of God by BETATRON(m): 4:42pm On Nov 04, 2015
johnydon22:


But that someone got to be without another creating it right? . . . The thing is not everything does not some intelligent being to create, interactions of natural elements give rise to natural entities and with each resulting reaction leads to more and more reactions and actions.

I cannot claim to know how the universe came to be, it is still a subject of scientific study till today and i'd maintain i don't know than assume up answers to fill that gap..



That is if you term supernovas work of art, tsunamis, blackholes. . . .

The sand dunes in the deserts

depict outstanding artistic beauty but does this mean it was done by some invisible artist in the desert?

No, it was simply an action of wind on matter (dust) in the desert, that one doesn't know what causes sand dunes doesn't mean someone drew it...



When one asserts natural laws they tend to forget the fact that these are in no way judicial-like laws but rather observed ways of natural manifestations.

When you assert a claim you should be able to substantiate with actual proofs not try to boycott unrelated natural entities to be works of your asserted creator-deity who remarkably needs no creator to exists.

Nobody is opposing your creator hypothesis, i regard it hypothetical and personally i'd rather trust in observed facts and established truthful approximations by systematic deduction than rely on assumptions stemming from my ignorance of how thing came to be.

It is known that Action of gravity on Matter (nebula) forms stars not some invisible deity shouting to himself..

I'd rather not fill up gaps left by ignorance with ancient superstition...
"Nothing moved until something moved" meaning that for everything there is a prime mover and the prime for this magnificent creation is God..and as you know this prime mover must have no beginning and no ending.it takes an equal level of understanding to understand something.generally you can't expect a child to start solving quantum physics..God is infinite knowledge and it takes infinite knowledge to describe Him as you know we humans don't possess that infinite knowledge..and to describe something you do it relatively but God as no equal and that is why He cannot be described
Good you already stated that you don't know how the universe came to be, since you have no complete knowledge about the universe why oppose the fact that there can't be a God
the human is only being that fits exactly into a sphere and a circle..meaning he has both spiritual and physical nature..it is innate in this being that there exists a all powerful God somewhere
if you claim all this things came into being by chance....then how is it possible that all this things take such a sophisticated nature that only elite scientist can't delve into their depth and bring out the beauty behind them? Isn't knowledge the result of knowledge and order?
Also you dnt know what caused the sand dune and still refute the possibilities that something created it.did it just pop out of no where,
Are humans the result of mere chance? Can unconsciousness be the result of consciousness

My NETWORk iS PISSING ME OFF, so our discussion my not go well today ,some other time hopefully
Re: How Atheists Handle Morality In The Absence Of God by johnydon22(m): 5:37pm On Nov 04, 2015
BETATRON:

"Nothing moved until something moved" meaning that for everything there is a prime mover and the prime for this magnificent creation is God
[b]

For science it was gravitational singularity or quantum fluctuation, deductively one could conclude that this your claim of an intelligent God is just an anthropomorphical personification of this forces.

"Nothing move until something Moved" this line of argument works more against your premise than for it.

Because since Nothing can move unless Moved then the God you propose which in your argument should not be quantified as nothing cannot move unless moved.


By asserting that God actually didn't need to be moved by something, haven't you failed in your own argument by showing something can actually move without being moved.

The universe as we know is still a huge unsolved maths to us and we should focus on solving it rather than assuming up answers like anthropomorphical deities.

For all we know it could be One out of countless other universes and it keeps getting bigger spanning the stretch of our imaginations, again this assumption of asserting an anthropomorphical deity does not answer the question in anyway...

If by God one means Gravitational or any other proven force controlling natural interactions then such premises can be looked into but asserting an almost humanoid persona it slips down the drain of primitive assumption and personification.

Something moved others, the question then is "what did?" Science proposes a gravitational singularity, you propose a deity. . . I'd rather trust an observed fact than invisible suppositions.. [/b]


..and as you know this prime mover must have no beginning and no ending.
The MUST i bolded betrays a mind that wishes to substitute his supposition of how he THINKS it should be with what Might be.

There is no place it is asserted something Must have no beginning in order to begin others.

Going by this one can simply assert GRAVITY is an infinitely eternal value and in actuality many things we have observed about this universe revolves around gravity.

When someone says THIS PRIME MOVER, it is ok for you to assert what you really take that prime mover to mean because it can be anything.

But when you assert a human-like intelligent diety as the prime mover who has a golden mansion somewhere as the prime mover this brings down your depiction of the prim mover to a childish mundane figure stemming from supposition and child-like superstition in representing values.


it takes an equal level of understanding to understand something.generally you can't expect a child to start solving quantum physics..


Exactly and when a child starts claiming to possess knowledge in Quantum physics without empirical substantiation at the same time turns around to tell me "He as a child cannot comprehend quantum physics, it is outrageous to reason and it outrightly absurd.


God is infinite knowledge and it takes infinite knowledge to describe Him as you know we humans don't possess that infinite knowledge.

This is exactly what i expected, you assert God is impossible to comprehend except with infinite knowledge same you turn around to assert God is infinite knowledge, how would you know if you can't even comprehend God?

This is always the weak point in assumptions because it gives birth to more and more assumptions in order to make a support for the previous assumption..


.and to describe something you do it relatively but God as no equal and that is why He cannot be described


-Yea same you would turn around and describe it to be infinite knowledge (which is a description itself)

-In order cases employ the full tenets of anthropomorphism like Golden mansions
-emotions
-Likes to be worshipped.

This whole concept betrays these claims to be nothing more than wishful thinking. . . If by God one means an eternal value of causality then i would maintain such a thing is a subject of study as i rightly asserted above.

Placing this Value to mean an intelligent being somewhere only betrays an assumptive imaginative mind...


Good you already stated that you don't know how the universe came to be, since you have no complete knowledge about the universe why oppose the fact that there can't be a God

Accepting "You don't know" in a premise where knowledge is lacked is a beautiful form of intellectual humility and honesty.

Unlike you i agree i don't know and there is open to knowing in a way of systematic and empirical substantiation and not assume up answers like "a deity did it"

You fill the gap left by your ignorance with such assumptions and tend to dub it a universal truth, that i wouldn't take without proof.

This form of argument is termed "argumentum ad ignorantum" "I don't know then this must have done it"

It doesn't work that way bob, you can't just assume up any answer in a premise where you lack knowledge without empirical substantiation..

I do not negate your "God did it hypothesis" i only demand empirical substantiation of which is almost impossible and that is why it has to rely on the claim to add weight to it.



the human is only being that fits exactly into a sphere and a circle..meaning he has both spiritual and physical nature..it is innate in this being that there exists a all powerful God somewhere


This is a blatant lie, it is not in anyway innate in man to propose the existence of a deity, such postulations arose from the unavailability of answers and the void created by such ignorance.

Primitive men have been known to anthropomorphically represent almost everything, The God Neptune was once held responsible for storms at sea now nobody does that.

That you are still clutching on this personification of natural laws is of your own making and not an innate human quality.

For the spiritual side i wouldn't dabble into a premise i have absolutely no idea what you mean by it because spirituality means many things to many people in diverse cultures...



if you claim all this things came into being by chance....then how is it possible that all this things take such a sophisticated nature that only elite scientist can't delve into their depth and bring out the beauty behind them? Isn't knowledge the result of knowledge and order?


Still clutching on this "Argumntum ad ignorantum" I don't really know what you term CHANCE because to me natural interactions are diverse and natural manifestation has no one way of manifesting.

One would want to know what you mean by Knowledge and order.. Because Knowledge as we know it is simply perception of what is.

Order is not a natural universal order, in fact the universe has been observed and is still a chaotic rhyme of interactions.

Supernovas beget White dwarves, Blackholes, collusion of galaxies make larger ones or collision of asteroid on a planetary body makes other debris and moons.

Like i showed with the picture of a sand dune, order and artistic depiction of such phenomena does not in any way connote an invisible intelligent artist somewhere b simply remnants of a chaotic reaction (Wind on dust)...


Also you dnt know what caused the sand dune and still refute the possibilities that something created it.did it just pop out of no where,


Sand dunes are action of wind on dust not some invisible artist, You might have no argument to support your assertion of some humanoid deity speaking things into existence in contrast to observed elementary facts that natural interactions lead to more natural interactions and spans into a chain of mor actions and reactions.

Hurricanes are works of the God neptune, am sure you think so too because hurricanes didn't just pop out of no where...

Are humans the result of mere chance?


Last i checked even the anthropomorphic creator you assert still boils down to chance.

As an intelligent being, it existed literally forever then suddenly decides to create everything... "Boredom"

I would always maintain that you don't know how anything started simply means you don't, no need assuming up answers that only end up postponing the question instead of answering it..

Can unconsciousness be the result of consciousness

Consciousness simply put is awareness (Perception)... A plant is plant is photoperceptive and so is aware of light.

So far consciousness is as a result of interaction neuroperception in an entity. . .

Maybe following your line of argument, for God who supposed to be conscious to exist then they should be another conscious source to create it.

Or as usual you would still fail to uphold the argument of a MUST conscious casualty when it comes to this God?

it is called special pleading..

If every consciousness must require another to exist then God would require another conscious source in order to possess consciousness..


My NETWORk iS PISSING ME OFF, so our discussion my not go well today ,some other time hopefully


Couldn't agree more my data is as good as spent...

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Re: How Atheists Handle Morality In The Absence Of God by UyiIredia(m): 8:16pm On Nov 04, 2015
johnydon22:


Pheeeew i knew this was were it would land. . . . It is normal for one who think some God created everything to hold that line of thought...

And abnormal otherwise ba? The people you get empathtvfrom where did they get their empathy? '

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