Image123:


Visitor700 agrees with you, remember.

It takes the grace of God to exorcise sectarian positions from your spirit.

MrPresident1:


I agree with you, vooks, the 'Rapture' is the LAST event. The 'Rapture' is the return of Jesus Christ, and it is the end of the tribulations.

Wrong! The rapture shall mark the begining of the great tribulation. The tribulation shall be the punishment for the foolish virgins who did not make it during the first flight, and they will now have to pay with their blood under torture for 3 and a half year, to deny Christ and accept the mark of the beast to live freely, work, buy and sell: which they must have to refuse to be saved.
The bride of Christ will never go through the tribulation period, otherwise the purpose of the salvation paid by Christ on the cross, would amount to nothing. But thank God, it won't be.

Appleyard:
Wrong! The rapture shall mark the begining of the great tribulation. The tribulation shall be the punishment for the foolish virgins who did not make it during the first flight, and they will now have to pay with their blood under torture for 3 and a half year, to deny Christ and accept the mark of the beast to live freely, work, buy and sell: which they must have to refuse to be saved.
The bride of Christ will never go through the tribulation period, otherwise the purpose of the salvation paid by Christ on the cross, would amount to nothing. But thank God, it won't be.

Could you be kind enough to show us from Revelation where rapture occurs?

Cc Image123,Scholar8200,Gombs,Joagbaje

vooks:

Because Revelation captures FUTURE events, would it miss such an important event that captivated the apostles and which Jesus spent a better part of his public and private ministry teaching?

Besides, how else would one know the number of saints resurrections other than from scriptures of which Revelation I one of them?

Resurrection is mentioned in the gospels,Acts,Pauline epistles and Revelation. All I need is some strong BIBLICAL sense in distinguishing instances of resurrection into two or more events and not one.

Scholar8200 and Image123 would have a fighting chance if they equally believed in multiple comings of Jesus Christ because ALL the resurrection accounts place the event at Jesus' coming.

Behold the inconsistency in their beliefs! They hold onto a singular return/coming but multiple resurrections. To do this, they must needs deny a simple scriptural truth; resurrection of the saints is at the Coming o Jesus Christ

Like i've said before, the Resurrection is not a one time event. Like you agree for instance, there is a all different resurrection for sinners that seems to occur about 1000years AFTER what is termed the first resurrection. This gap doesn't appear all through scripture but is only given in Revelations 20. Otherwise, one can easily think that all resurrection will occur at once. That is why a holistic view of all Scripture is important in doctrine, so that you don't just run meaninglessly with one verse or one book, when the whole Scripture has been given and nothing to be taken away or added again.
Resurrection is not a mystery, it is more like you said "an important event that captivated the apostles and which Jesus spent a better part of his public and private ministry teaching". What however is a mystery is what we call the Rapture; the sudden catching away of saints.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


This is what will happen when the "trump of God" will sound. Else, there will be no point referring to the duration(In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye).
I've said it before and i say it again, that the Coming of the Lord Jesus is a long event spanning centuries. Everything that happens during that period is at the coming of the Lord. It does not have to be only once. Any student and reader of the Bible will agree to how the coming was sort of lumped together in the Old Testament scriptures. Without the benefit of hindsight, it would be pretty difficult to separate the events of the first coming from the second coming in the Old Testament Scriptures. In fact, even the disciples did not know and understand that there will be a Second Coming. As there were many events during Christ's first coming(if we can call it that), much more, there will be many events during the Lord's second coming. One of such will be the rapture in which will be a resurrection. And just like we are saved and chosen in Him from the foundation of the world, He was slain from the foundation of the world, and the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world. So, our resurrection is reckoned in Scriptures. The rapture, the tribulation, the rewards, the marriage supper of the Lamb, the defeat of satan and of death, the millenial reign, the second death are all at the Coming of the Lord. However, they are not all events that happen in 24hours.

vooks:

It's fidgeting that I find funny among grown ups

i find daydreaming amusing.

Good

oh dear,
FIRST resurrection is coming to live of the saints, second resurrection is the next resurrection found a few verses further, isn't this common sense? Why is it FIRST if it is the only? Jesus is the FIRST begotten because others follow after. FIRST is not idle banter but LOGICAL ordering

My exact point. The Bible does not call it a second resurrection but a second death. The first and second are relating one another, not relating the number of resurrections. All resurrections in the order of Christ's are under the FIRST resurrection. i gave the example of the Nigerian government earlier. The President's ministers will all form his cabinet. Whatever name they call them, 8th Federal Executive Council or whatever, they are all termed together. Even though they were not screened together or confirmed at the same time. their names were sent to the Senate in batches etc but they are together. Same vein, all saints are partakers of the FIRST resurrection, even though it does not happen at the same time.

It is MASS resurrection of the saints found in verse 4 of Revelation. I call it global because it involves very many, masses.

Spare me the details, i know what you are talking about already. i was only pulling your legs like you were having issues over a concept(church age) simply because you did not find the exact phrase in your Bible. i know there is a mass/global resurrection just like i know that we are living in the church age. And i know there is a Bible and a rapture. The concept is clear, i don't need King James to write it in the English Bible for me to know.

You simply imagined that didn't you
Second death follows first drag while first resurrection is followed by second resurrection of the unjust unto damnation. You don't SIMPLY skirt around scriptures as a Christian

This is the ONLY passage in the whole of Scriptures that refers to a "First resurrection". Obviously, they are related to the SECOND death.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

You keep making reference to a 'second resurrection' that is not directly stated but inferred, yet when others do same, you do not accept.

Oh mehn,
First, what is FIRST resurrection?
Rev 20:4 tells us, it is coming to life ,'and they lived' of dead men (saints)

Revelation 20:11 tells us sinners come to life much later. They are then thrown into the lake of fire. We are not told this is he second resurrection, but it is a resurrection nonetheless, else what is it?

The "contextual more than numerical' is a testament to a fertile determination to reject scriptures

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Apparently, the above verse says nothing about sinners coming to life much later. Even verse 12 does not refer to it as coming to life, though i get your point even when you deliberately refuse to get mine.
The first resurrection is a phase that encompasses all saints' resurrection. Apparently,One, all saints do not resurrect at once, else they would be no different from dead believers souls in Heaven under the altar, in some kind of limbo. But we see that some saints are actively involved in the activities of Heaven compared to the souls that died in tribulation. Two, a one time global resurrection alludes that all living believers will partake in the Great Tribulation, making void and useless the promises of the Lord.
Jer 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

it is conjecture. It is true we have church today and we have had church since Pentecost, it is also true we won't have church AFTER Rev 20:4 rapture, it is fertile imagination that the time between Pentecost and the slaying of the beast is divided into 7 'ages'

i don't remember mentioning anything about 7ages, don't be distracted.

Like I have told you before, am least interested in Image123 sayings and epistles but in scriptures .

It's in scriptures.

John is summoned to heaven in this verse and I pray I understand how you following other deluded souls take a theological leap from John to the Church, and how Rev2-3 epistles to 7 literal churches in Asia Minor translate to 'church age'

i don't hope to do a Revelations commentary. Anyone with a fair understanding of the book knows that these sayings are true. Revelations is basically divided into three.
Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
The past, the present and the hereafter. The hereafter starts from chapter4v1 and that begins with a COME UP HITHER which is in tune/consonance with being caught up to meet the Lord in the air as seen in Thessalonians.
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will show thee things which must be hereafter.

This is not answer but wild and baseless conjecture. Just because you say so don't make it so. I have been chewing these theories for the last 20 years so I know you did not conjure them, you are just regurgitating them and pretending you stumbled upon them on your own. I have no problem with that, I learn from others, but the difference between us is I have questioned them and found them utterly worthless and baseless .

If you could give me REASONS for your statements and stopped wistfully thinking that saying it makes it so, I'd let you off the hook.

i don't owe you anything.

Again, saying it does not prove it, simply say, ' it is written'. Bro you need to learn to speak like Jesus, breathing scriptures and not vainly intruding into things puffed up in your mind or quoting the latest prophecy 'experts'

i gave around thirty lines straight reply including scripture passageS. It is not my fault that you decided to pick a phrase and say what you like. Revelations 4v1 is the rapture time and the rapture occurs before the Beast. It's clear in Revelations as shown already. It is also clear in Thessalonians.
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

hmm


Shameless lying. Jesus first Advent was his incarnation. What followed his coming is not his coming, he was here already. Meditate on that bro.

Not clear what you insinuate here so let me not waste time on that.

Saying it does not make it so bro, there are no series to Jesus coming, ALL EYES will see Him. That is the coming, anything preceding it is not coming but simply something preceding His coming. Aight??

The 're is NOTHING mysterious or symbolized about Jesus coming. You are making this up to explain total absence of Jesus advent and rapture BEFORE Revelation 20.

Maybe we can also conclude on the same vein that anything after ALL EYES will see Him is not the coming. The event in which "ALL EYES will see Him"is a very small and short part of Christ's second coming. The book of Revelation is SYMBOLIZED, it says so itself.
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
He used signs/symbols. Anyone who has read Revelations knows this, i supposed.

It has been revealed by the Holy Spirit to apostle Paul in 1 Cor 15,Thessalonians and so forth.

What part of rapture do you find 'not plain or open to everyone to catch or understuand'? Are you in this category of men to whom it is hid? Could this be why you can't see rapture in Revelation 20 but you go on a wild goose chase in Revelation 4:1 which has NOTHING to do with rapture nor resurrection?

That Paul understands it doesn't mean everybody does. i thought Peter already said so.
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other Scriptures, unto their own destruction. Jesus Himself has to be revealed, else He remains a mystery to the hearer. Not to mention some doctrine that are sealed/shut up until the end. Like i initially said, no need to be afraid or worried, understanding or knowledge is of little profit in the grand scheme as it were.

Very true, but it is blasphemy claiming rapture is what it is not and rejecting it. Rapture and resurrection happen at the same time so if I can find resurrection, I'd sure be reading about rapture and vice versa. So simple ain't it ?

The rapture involves resurrection and is a part of the FIRST resurrection. However, it happens before the events of Revelation 20.

Powerful nonsense .
I have told you before, claiming something does not make it so.

Why are 7 letter to seven Asia Minor churches what 'we are experiencing now'? Theories of men who hate the truth.

Jesus is Lord, and it is so.

Very good, you are quoting scriptures just like Jesus


what makes a LITERAL act of John a picture?

Your imagination is overworking. If John represents the Church, should EVEYTHING John does represent the Church? How silly and absurd does that sound?


True but so what?

As you can read, Revelations 4 to chapter 19 show saints in Heaven who have being resurrected, different from the souls under the altar who have to wait for chapter 20 before being resurrected.
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

utter nonsense. What makes this angel human? That the angel is a servant?

Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
Evidently, they are FELLOW, they are THY(John's) BRETHREN, they have the TESTIMONY OF JESUS. You are the one who actually needs to show that this is an "ANGEL" in the first instance.

when did they get to heaven? When John was summoned to heaven?

Yes that's what the Bible says, what do you say.

This is true but it does not mean rapture happened before the Beast. If the Beast showed up today, there would be thousands of saints in heaven who went there before the Beast showed up. For instance, the saints who died the day before the Beast came.

This appears to be where you miss it. Saints in Heaven are ASLEEP in Jesus as it were. They are in a kind of limbo, like the souls under the altar. Like Lazarus who could barely do much or actively participate, entered into rest. The rapture resurrection gives saints resurrected bodies, it makes them complete, like Jesus, seeing Him as He is, worshipping, forever with Him.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

So God did not know how to deliver the beheaded? Funny guy. Did he too not know how to deliver Stephen and James?

Stephen and James do not partake in the Great Tribulation. The souls partake in it and have to wait till the end of the Tribulation before they receive resurrected bodies.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
God has not appointed us to wrath, we are not in darkness and the day will not overtake us believers. Why? Because we'll be out by then, taken out of the way, before the beast.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

Like I said over and over, making a claim is one thing, proving it is another. Prove it.

i already did, and every Bible student knows. The coming of the Lord spans events over a thousand years; the millenial reign, the Judgement, the battles, the marriage supper of the Lamb, the rapture. These are not 24hour events or simultaneous happenings. Yet, all over scriptures, these events are described in relation to the coming of the Lord, the Day of the Lord, the Last day etc

Holistic means with your theoretical bias in mind, right?

Holistic means the whole, complete, total study of the Bible. Not shifting goalposts as you have been doing, claiming that we should stick to Revelations, then quoting other scriptures at will.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 King James Version (KJV)
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
This verse is talking of Jesus coming with the dead. Which event is this according to your eschatology, the former or the latter?

Of course, He brings them WITH Him. When? After they have being caught up to meet Him. We will not prevent them which are asleep. You need to understand the ORDER of events. There will be a CATCHING UP first before the armies return WITH HIM.

You are out of your depth and Google should be your best friend. The twinkle of an eye is the clothing of mortality with immortality. It is instantaneous-1 Cor 15. The all eyes seeing Him is Jesus coming is not a private secret spiritual mumbo jumbo but a public and global even. They are not mutually exclusive, at Jesus' public return is when we shall be changed in a moment.

Again, the rapture happens rapidly, the second coming does not. i cannot open your head and put that in.

Resurrection had no stages, there is ONLY the first resurrection in Revelation 20:4 of the saints, and a later one of sinners in v11.

4:1 is a figment of deluded minds and totally baseless

The Scripture is not a figment of deluded minds and totally baseless .

Claiming it does not make it.
We have first and second death, we have first and second resurrection in Revelation 20.

i'm sure the Bible did not forget to write all these additions.


Cc: Gombs,Scholar8200,Goshen360,Joagbaje,Ayoku777,Esere826,MutleyLaff ,Shdemidemi,MrPresident1

[quote author=Image123 post=39295512]

Like i've said before, the Resurrection is not a one time event

You don't need to insist on a truism. There are 2 resurections one for the righteous and another for the unrighteous


.

Like you agree for instance, there is a all different resurrection for sinners that seems to occur about 1000years AFTER what is termed the first resurrection.

Not 'seems', this is EXACTLY what happens unless you got a problem with that

Otherwise, one can easily think that all resurrection will occur at once.

Nobody but utter ignoramuses would settle on this. Outside Revelation, we have resurrection of the just and he unjust mentioned. For instance,

Acts 24:15King James Version (KJV)
15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

That is why a holistic view of all Scripture is important in doctrine, so that you don't just run meaninglessly with one verse or one book, when the whole Scripture has been given and nothing to be taken away or added again

I don't know why you preach water and knock yourself with rum.

Let's look at us. Who is unholistic?
The one who conjures a resurrection and rapture out of Revelation 4:1 and when pressed by common sense and logic appeals to mystery, while at the same time DENYING a SECOND RESURRECTION in Rev 20:10-11?

What happens at 20:11?

Resurrection is not a mystery, it is more like you said "an important event that captivated the apostles and which Jesus spent a better part of his public and private ministry teaching". What however is a mystery is what we call the Rapture; the sudden catching away of saints

1Co 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


This is what will happen when the "trump of God" will sound. Else, there will be no point referring to the duration(In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye).

Resurrection is part of what Paul calls mystery. Anyway, even if rapture is a mystery, this is no artistic licence for mindless imagination that places an event NOWHERE God placed it

I've said it before and i say it again, that the Coming of the Lord Jesus is a long event spanning centuries. Everything that happens during that period is at the coming of the Lord.

I have said before, this is utter nonsense you can't substantiate save in yapping hat it must be so because you said so.

. In fact, even the disciples did not know and understand that there will be a Second Coming. As there were many events during Christ's first coming(if we can call it that), much more, there will be many events during the Lord's second coming. One of such will be the rapture in which will be a resurrection.

You have wasted so much space saying so little; Jesus COMES at rapture.

This is true. That is the ONLY coming He spoke of, he only Paul spoke of, and at this coming there is resurrection and the slaying of the beast. It is very clear in all but indoctrinated minds that there is NO OTHER coming before this.

And just like we are saved and chosen in Him from the foundation of the world, He was slain from the foundation of the world, and the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world. So, our resurrection is reckoned in Scriptures. The rapture, the tribulation, the rewards, the marriage supper of the Lamb, the defeat of satan and of death, the millenial reign, the second death are all at the Coming of the Lord. However, they are not all events that happen in 24hours.

Here is what we know about the coming
1. There is resurrection at his coming
2. The Beast is slain at his coming
3. Indoctrinated minds without REASON deny this

Image123:

i find daydreaming amusing.

You engage in that 247 if you see resurrection in 4:1. You must be thoroughly amused at you

My exact point. The Bible does not call it a second resurrection but a second death.

Either you are dumb on purpose or unschooled. Sorry for strong words but here is why. SECOND DEATH is not coming to life of the dead but casting into the lake of fire.

As I have always done, I quote scriptures just like Jesus. Study this.
Revelation 20:14-15King James Version (KJV)
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Now, why is it a resurrection?
Revelation 20:4-5King James Version (KJV)

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded...... and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Here is how one can use their brains;
Resurrection is coming to life of the dead.
1. The righteous- AND THEY LIVED- First resurrection
2. The unrighteous- The rest LIVED not again UNTIL - second resurrection

The first and second are relating one another, not relating the number of resurrections.

Fertile imagination overworking

All resurrections in the order of Christ's are under the FIRST resurrection

Do the dead in sin resurrect? Can you call this resurrection?

. i gave the example of the Nigerian government earlier. The President's ministers will all form his cabinet. Whatever name they call them, 8th Federal Executive Council or whatever, they are all termed together. Even though they were not screened together or confirmed at the same time. their names were sent to the Senate in batches etc but they are together.
.

I have little time for asinine examples, give me scriptures. Show me the two resurrection of the saints and get done with it

Spare me the details, i know what you are talking about already. i was only pulling your legs like you were having issues over a concept(church age) simply because you did not find the exact phrase in your Bible

I don't resist the theory because the term is absent from scriptures but because the CONCEPT is your hallucination without ANY scriptural basis

. i know there is a mass/global resurrection just like i know that we are living in the church age.

Resurrection Jesus , apostles and even old testament saints taught and believed it, so it's 101% scriptural. CHURCH AGE nonsense on the other hand had no basis. So you mix truth with error.

And i know there is a Bible and a rapture. The concept is clear, i don't need King James to write it in the English Bible for me to know.

I can tell you are imagining things when you can't SUBSTANTIATE the same from scriptures

This is the ONLY passage in the whole of Scriptures that refers to a "First resurrection". Obviously, they are related to the SECOND death.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

A few things you can glean
1. Not ALL go through first resurrection
2. Those who do don't suffer SECOND DEATH
3. FIRST DEATH is inconsequential

You keep making reference to a 'second resurrection' that is not directly stated but inferred, yet when others do same, you do not accept.

It is not INFERRED but expressly REVEALED by Holy Spirit in Rev 20:4-5
The 'and they lived' is called FIRST RESURRECTION. The rest of the dead 'lived not again until'. So at this point we are prepared for a yet future living of the remainder. Because scriptures were written for thinking men not goats, the only point where you find the dead living AFTER this MUST be the resurrection of the remainder. We find it in 13-15.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Apparently, the above verse says nothing about sinners coming to life much later. Even verse 12 does not refer to it as coming to life, though i get your point even when you deliberately refuse to get mine.

My point is scripturally solid. Yours ain't. So I will simply not return favor and agree with nonsense and conjecture so we are even.

The first resurrection is a phase that encompasses all saints' resurrection.

Revelation chronicles future events including resurrection of the sinners but is TOTALLY silent on your imagined prior 'first phase' resurrection of the saints. The reason Holy Spirit skipped such is simple; He is not your partner in imagination.

Apparently,One, all saints do not resurrect at once, else they would be no different from dead believers souls in Heaven under the altar, in some kind of limbo. But we see that some saints are actively involved in the activities of Heaven compared to the souls that died in tribulation.

Revelation has symbols and image.

Two, a one time global resurrection alludes that all living believers will partake in the Great Tribulation, making void and useless the promises of the Lord.
Jer 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

You are quoting scriptures like Satan when tempting Jesus
1. What has Jeremiah got to do with anything?
2. Those were words directed to a SPECIFIC church in Asia. If they are global, so then are everything else in 2-3. Are they all applicable to you Image123?
3.The beheaded, were they kept from temptation?

i don't remember mentioning anything about 7ages, don't be distracted.

Ok but with or without church ages, church age is a figment of your imagination.

Here is God's word. CHURCH ends with Jesus return when he slays the beast and resurrects the saints. Rev 20:4

It's in scriptures.

Quote them

i don't hope to do a Revelations commentary. Anyone with a fair understanding of the book knows that these sayings are true. Revelations is basically divided into three.
Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
The past, the present and the hereafter. The hereafter starts from chapter4v1 and that begins with a COME UP HITHER which is in tune/consonance with being caught up to meet the Lord in the air as seen in Thessalonians.
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will show thee things which must be hereafter.

You are terribly inconsistent.

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

This is found in chapter 3 do it must be part of 'past and present' from John 's vantage in 96AD. But you shamelessly invoke it to 'prove' a futuristic Jacob's trouble..

i gave around thirty lines straight reply including scripture passageS. It is not my fault that you decided to pick a phrase and say what you like. Revelations 4v1 is the rapture time and the rapture occurs before the Beast.

Shouting and repetition don't make a truth. WHERE in 4:1 do I find rapture?

It's clear in Revelations as shown already. It is also clear in Thessalonians.
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

What is clear is that scriptures don't back up you multiple resurrection of he saints nonsense.

Maybe we can also conclude on the same vein that anything after ALL EYES will see Him is not the coming. The event in which "ALL EYES will see Him"is a very small and short part of Christ's second coming.

We can conclude by saying what had no scriptural basis is of lesser value than used toilet paper. Jesus first advent was not in phases and nor is his second Advent. There are clear and specific events called coming and they span moments not thousands of years

The book of Revelation is SYMBOLIZED, it says so itself.
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
He used signs/symbols. Anyone who has read Revelations knows this, i supposed.

True there are symbols but this is no license to make up ADDITIONAL symbols and then throw fits when called out. If John's literal beckoning and moving to heaven is rapture, so is his command to write, to measure the temple and EVERYTHING he did. In fact being in Patmos is also a symbol. This is mega-stupid

There are two other 'come hither' moments. Let's look at them;

Revelation 17:1-3 (KJV)
And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great LovePeddler that sitteth upon many waters: 2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. 3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns

Revelation 21:9-10 (KJV)
And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God

Can you see that the three come hither moments are ACTUAL literal activities John experiences? How do you make one of them a symbol of rapture? Theories of men. This is called Eisegesis or reading your fantasies into a text. Do exegesis for once, that is allowing the text to speak to you

There is another 'come up hither' moment in Revelation but this time, John is witnessing it and not undergoing it. This is probably the closest one can get to rapture in Revelation 1-19. Let's look at it;

Revelation 11:11-12 (KJV)
And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

So why won't Image123 and his handlers invoke this?
It's simple; the two witnesses were slain by the Beast!

Revelation 11:7 (KJV)
And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them

The problem with 'seeing' rapture here is, it means the church is raptured AFTER the Beast has shown up. But this is precisely what they are desperately trying to avoid. In their fickle theories, rapture happens BEFORE the Beast shows up

Image123:

That Paul understands it doesn't mean everybody does. i thought Peter already said so.
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other Scriptures, unto their own destruction. Jesus Himself has to be revealed, else He remains a mystery to the hearer.

I have a problem with amateur expositors who invoke 'mystery' when their incoherent ramblings are called out.

Not to mention some doctrine that are sealed/shut up until the end. Like i initially said, no need to be afraid or worried, understanding or knowledge is of little profit in the grand scheme as it were.[

Nonsense. Give me example of one hidden doctrine. And while at it, remember Joseph Smith taught this and claimed the Book of Mormon is among what was to be revealed in these last days

The rapture involves resurrection and is a part of the FIRST resurrection. However, it happens before the events of Revelation 20.

Fertile imagination. Where is rapture in Revelation? Is this event so insignificant that it does not get any mention yet Paul and Jesus dwelt on it at length?

Paul tells us the man of sin will be destroyed at Jesus' coming and John in Revelation 19 captures this! Peter tells us of the earth melting and the heaven rolling away and we have this in Revelation. So, where do we find Rapture since your indoctrinated brains can't accept a simple truth that rapture which follows resurrection is found in Rev 20:4?

Jesus is Lord, and it is so.

Amen

As you can read, Revelations 4 to chapter 19 show saints in Heaven who have being resurrected, different from the souls under the altar who have to wait for chapter 20 before being resurrected.
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

And what's the difference between the saints under the altar and the resurrected saints?

Ever thought through this, the beast rises in chapter 13 but the saints under the altar show up 5 chapters before in chapter 6?

Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
Evidently, they are FELLOW, they are THY(John's) BRETHREN, they have the TESTIMONY OF JESUS. You are the one who actually needs to show that this is an "ANGEL" in the first instance.

The angel is a FELLOW SERVANT. Their fellowship/similarity is in SERVITUDE, in serving God not humanity. Are you accusing John of necromancy? You need to burn all the junk you have been regurgitating on Revelation

Contrast the apostles when MEN attempted to worship them,
Acts 14:14-15 (KJV)
Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out, 15 And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein:


He is an angel because Bible says so.Jesus sent his angel. So all the talking is either from Jesus or an angel. Since this particular voice would not suffer worship, it was not Jesus but the angel.

See
Revelation 1:1 (KJV)
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Revelation 22:16 (KJV)
I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.


Is this clear?

Yes that's what the Bible says, what do you say.

Quote it.

This appears to be where you miss it. Saints in Heaven are ASLEEP in Jesus as it were. They are in a kind of limbo, like the souls under the altar. Like Lazarus who could barely do much or actively participate, entered into rest. The rapture resurrection gives saints resurrected bodies, it makes them complete, like Jesus, seeing Him as He is, worshipping, forever with Him.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Epic confusion.
Walk me through Rev 4-20 and distinguish between resurrected and unresurrected saints because frankly speaking here is NONE even remotely hinted at.

Sleep is a METAPHOR for death, a very apt one physically because;
1. The physical inactivity of the dead
2. The appearance of the dead as if they are sleeping.

Spiritually, they are very much alive and fully conscious. What in Image123 imagination is 'ASLEEP in Jesus as it were'?

Stephen and James do not partake in the Great Tribulation. The souls partake in it and have to wait till the end of the Tribulation before they receive resurrected bodies.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
God has not appointed us to wrath, we are not in darkness and the day will not overtake us believers. Why? Because we'll be out by then, taken out of the way, before the beast.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

Great scriptures but NONE serve your vain heresy of multiple resurrection of the saints

i already did, and every Bible student knows. The coming of the Lord spans events over a thousand years; the millenial reign, the Judgement, the battles, the marriage supper of the Lamb, the rapture. These are not 24hour events or simultaneous happenings. Yet, all over scriptures, these events are described in relation to the coming of the Lord, the Day of the Lord, the Last day etc

Every thinking believer knows this is nonsense and the coming of Jesus is a one time event so quick that Christians look forward to. How do I look forward to something spanning 1000 years?

Again, all I need are scriptures not fantasies. Quote any reference to coming of Jesus that suggests a span of 1000 years.

Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV)
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Note;
1. It happens after the tribulation
2. ALL shall weep which obviously mean they will see him, else how would they weep over some magical coming?
3. He comes with the great sound of a trumpet
4. He shall gather his Elect at His coming.
This is how Jesus COMES; with power and glory. If you imagine a different coming other than this, you ought to be a shamed of yourself and repent.

Holistic means the whole, complete, total study of the Bible. Not shifting goalposts as you have been doing, claiming that we should stick to Revelations, then quoting other scriptures at will.

Does holistic mean conjuring a rapture out of Revelation 4:1. Then holistic to you is a synonym of hallucination

Of course, He brings them WITH Him. When? After they have being caught up to meet Him. We will not prevent them which are asleep. You need to understand the ORDER of events. There will be a CATCHING UP first before the armies return WITH HIM.

It happens at Jesus coming, returning. Not before, not after. Revelation 20:4 is clear on his. They live and then reign.

Again, the rapture happens rapidly, the second coming does not. i cannot open your head and put that in.

If you had scriptures and not fantasy tales, I'd respect you. You don't and are exasparated that I don't flinch . I can't possibly ground you in the word my broda, I can only encourage you like Paul to be so you are not carried away by every wind of stupidity and rank heresy.

The Scripture is not a figment of deluded minds and totally baseless .

Reading rapture in Rev 4:1 is delusion, May be the strong delusion God sends the unbelievers.

i'm sure the Bible did not forget to write all these additions.


Cc: Gombs,Scholar8200,Goshen360,Joagbaje,Ayoku777,Esere826,MutleyLaff ,Shdemidemi,MrPresident1

Multiple resurrection of the saints remains a rank heresy that has zero scriptural basis.
Resurrection of the saints is found immediately after the beast has been slain in Revelation 20:4

Fixing resurrection in 4:1 is ADDING to scriptures. You are in danger of hellfire

Image123,Scholar8200,Joagbaje, Gombs
Help me understand why you are compelled to defend the indefensible.
Why are you determined to skip tribulations? Is it the primal self-preservation instincts that make us avoid pain, or is it that you have never thought through these things soberly apart from the lenses of a bible commentary?

For years I was in the pre-trib camp and I could regurgitate these arguments you are passing as yours backward. I had my theology watertight. Every 'prophecy teacher', Jack Van Impe, Hal Lindsay, John Hagee.... All these guys really impressed me BIG.

But soon I started noting serious discrepancies among them. I also got exposed to preterism, ammilenialism among others. And I got confused. How could such compelling arguments contradict each other?

The answer is, they are THEORIES OF MEN.

I purposed to study on my own. One thing I realized is that pre-trib is under 100 years old.

Does the age of a theological system matter? Not really. Some errors may persist for years. But Christian History is very important in sorting 'every wind of doctrine'. See new stuff keeps on coming up. New 'revelations' ought to be thoroughly scrutinized as chances are they are errors. Pre-trib is a convenient theory; it gives false hope of escape. It goes without saying such a teaching will spread super fast. Because we are averse to pain. Naturally.

My humble appeal is be humble enough to admit that your beliefs are in all likelihood THEORIES of men. Purpose to study for yourself. Don't be afraid of asking hard questions or contradicting your MoG. Be open minded, there is still room to learn and improve on what you have.

From my sojourns I find the simplest and the most scripturally persuasive position to be
1. Post-trib
2. A single coming again of Jesus in Rev 19-20

I still have questions am yet to figure out. For instance I wonder whether the millennial reign is literal.

God bless you all

vooks:


I still have questions am yet to figure out. For instance I wonder whether the millennial reign is literal.

God bless you all

Hey vooks wassup.

The millenial reign is in the past, when the saints woke up and ruled the kingdom for a thousand years. May be this period was the Holy Roman Empire, you know this empire ran for just a little bit over a thousand years.

The Holy Roman Empire was a multi-ethnic complex of territories in central Europe that developed during the Early Middle Ages and continued until its dissolution in 1806. Wikipedia
Capitals: Regensburg, Frankfurt, Prague
Founded: December 25, 800 AD
Date dissolved: August 6, 1806
Government: Elective monarchy
Historical era: Middle Ages, Early modern period

All this pre-trib nonsense was fabricated to keep the truth away. We are in the tribulation, Negroes, and it is ending.

vooks:
You don't need to insist on a truism. There are 2 resurections one for the righteous and another for the unrighteous

You keep insisting blankly that resurrection is a one time event that happens on in Revelations 20, remember?

Not 'seems', this is EXACTLY what happens unless you got a problem with that

i understand that the Bible can be and has been cut and quoted in phrases and verses for various reasons, some good some not. My words are not the Bible and it will do everyone well when you quote a full paragraph more often, than just picking and choosing a sentence(s) to remark on at random, so that the context is not easily lost or manipulated, and the reader's understanding is profited.
Resurrection for sinners seems to occur about 1000years AFTER what is termed the first resurrection.

Nobody but utter ignoramuses would settle on this. Outside Revelation, we have resurrection of the just and he unjust mentioned. For instance,

Acts 24:15King James Version (KJV)
15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

The verse doesn't rule out the events occurring simultaneously. However, we know it doesn't, Revelations 20 suggests that at least.

I don't know why you preach water and knock yourself with rum.

Let's look at us. Who is unholistic?
The one who conjures a resurrection and rapture out of Revelation 4:1 and when pressed by common sense and logic appeals to mystery, while at the same time DENYING a SECOND RESURRECTION in Rev 20:10-11?

What happens at 20:11?

The one who is unholistic is the one who earlier discouraged others from quoting other books of the Bible apart from Revelations. i do not deny a resurrection further down Revelations 20, i said the chapter/passage does not call it that but calls it a second DEATH. This was said in context of explaining the FIRST and SECOND in the passage/chapter. You should seek/pursue understanding or edification instead of fruitless attempts to catch me at my words.

Resurrection is part of what Paul calls mystery. Anyway, even if rapture is a mystery, this is no artistic licence for mindless imagination that places an event NOWHERE God placed it

Resurrection is not a mystery, what however is a mystery is what we call the Rapture; the sudden catching away of saints. The average jew knew, expected and believed in Resurrection apart from the Sadducees that taught against it. Heck, even Herod knew there will be Resurrection. It is the RAPTURE part of the Resurrection that was a mystery.

I have said before, this is utter nonsense you can't substantiate save in yapping hat it must be so because you said so.

This is basic commonsense, you don't even need a first school leaving certificate to get it. The reigning on earth is at the coming of the Lord, the judgement which happens about 1000years after is also at the coming of the Lord. Therefore the coming of the Lord is a long event spanning centuries. Everything that happens during that period is at the coming of the Lord.
1Co 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

You have wasted so much space saying so little; Jesus COMES at rapture.

This is true. That is the ONLY coming He spoke of, he only Paul spoke of, and at this coming there is resurrection and the slaying of the beast. It is very clear in all but indoctrinated minds that there is NO OTHER coming before this.
Here is what we know about the coming
1. There is resurrection at his coming
2. The Beast is slain at his coming
3. Indoctrinated minds without REASON deny this

Nobody mentioned different comings, get yourself together.

vooks:

You engage in that 247 if you see resurrection in 4:1. You must be thoroughly amused at you


Either you are dumb on purpose or unschooled. Sorry for strong words but here is why. SECOND DEATH is not coming to life of the dead but casting into the lake of fire.

As I have always done, I quote scriptures just like Jesus. Study this.
Revelation 20:14-15King James Version (KJV)
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Now, why is it a resurrection?
Revelation 20:4-5King James Version (KJV)

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded...... and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Here is how one can use their brains;
Resurrection is coming to life of the dead.
1. The righteous- AND THEY LIVED- First resurrection
2. The unrighteous- The rest LIVED not again UNTIL - second resurrection

The unrighteous' living is in itself a death, and it is properly called a SECOND death even though they are 'alive'.

Fertile imagination overworking

Do the dead in sin resurrect? Can you call this resurrection?

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
The resurrection of damnation is properly called SECOND Death. There's no joy there.

I have little time for asinine examples, give me scriptures. Show me the two resurrection of the saints and get done with it

i already did, it's not my fault that you refused to see it. Teachers give examples and illustrations that their hearers can relate with, Jesus did and so did Paul.

I don't resist the theory because the term is absent from scriptures but because the CONCEPT is your hallucination without ANY scriptural basis


Resurrection Jesus , apostles and even old testament saints taught and believed it, so it's 101% scriptural. CHURCH AGE nonsense on the other hand had no basis. So you mix truth with error.
I can tell you are imagining things when you can't SUBSTANTIATE the same from scriptures

This period/age/time we are in is the era of the church. If you don't like it, no problem.
Act 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
The church has a beginning and it is still ongoing.

A few things you can glean
1. Not ALL go through first resurrection
2. Those who do don't suffer SECOND DEATH
3. FIRST DEATH is inconsequential

No one argued against this,however the passage(Revelation 20:6) says nothing about first death but about second death, not to mention consequences or no.

It is not INFERRED but expressly REVEALED by Holy Spirit in Rev 20:4-5
The 'and they lived' is called FIRST RESURRECTION. The rest of the dead 'lived not again until'. So at this point we are prepared for a yet future living of the remainder. Because scriptures were written for thinking men not goats, the only point where you find the dead living AFTER this MUST be the resurrection of the remainder. We find it in 13-15.
My point is scripturally solid. Yours ain't. So I will simply not return favor and agree with nonsense and conjecture so we are even.

In english language, we call that an 'inference' or a 'deduction'.

Revelation chronicles future events including resurrection of the sinners but is TOTALLY silent on your imagined prior 'first phase' resurrection of the saints. The reason Holy Spirit skipped such is simple; He is not your partner in imagination.

It is clear to many. There is nothing framed as "resurrection of sinners" in the whole book, but every serious observer and reader of the Bible knows that happens.

Revelation has symbols and image.

Oh, does it?

You are quoting scriptures like Satan when tempting Jesus
1. What has Jeremiah got to do with anything?
2. Those were words directed to a SPECIFIC church in Asia. If they are global, so then are everything else in 2-3. Are they all applicable to you Image123?
3.The beheaded, were they kept from temptation?

Jeremiah clearly describes the event in question as "that day is great, so that none is like it".
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
If the promise is only for a specific church(shake my head at your childishness), then its a waste of space, because for the past over 2000years, uncountable people have been "kept from the hour of temptation" simply by dying before the hour. What beheaded? If you are referring to the souls under the altar, they were not godly/well prepared that is why they missed the Rapture in the first instance, as the foolish virgins. They got serious though and refused to cooperate with the antichrist.

Ok but with or without church ages, church age is a figment of your imagination.

Here is God's word. CHURCH ends with Jesus return when he slays the beast and resurrects the saints. Rev 20:4

Interesting theory, only that we cannot find this theory in the verse.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Quote them

Done that many times already.

You are terribly inconsistent.

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

This is found in chapter 3 do it must be part of 'past and present' from John 's vantage in 96AD. But you shamelessly invoke it to 'prove' a futuristic Jacob's trouble..

It's a PROMISE remember? Promises are made for the FUTURE in the PRESENT or PAST.

Shouting and repetition don't make a truth. WHERE in 4:1 do I find rapture?

Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will show thee things which must be hereafter.
It is evidently the beginning of the "hereafter" phase of the book of Revelation. Reading onwards, its glaring to see saints and elders who have been given resurrected bodies holding their own in Heaven, their home.

What is clear is that scriptures don't back up you multiple resurrection of he saints nonsense.

2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
The passage clearly shows that some people are taken out of the way before the antichrist is revealed. That taking out of the way is the Rapture.

We can conclude by saying what had no scriptural basis is of lesser value than used toilet paper. Jesus first advent was not in phases and nor is his second Advent. There are clear and specific events called coming and they span moments not thousands of years

i'm sure that by now you agree that the coming is not limited to the period when ALL EYES see Him.

True there are symbols but this is no license to make up ADDITIONAL symbols and then throw fits when called out. If John's literal beckoning and moving to heaven is rapture, so is his command to write, to measure the temple and EVERYTHING he did. In fact being in Patmos is also a symbol. This is mega-stupid

Oh, but you initially said that there was nothing symbolized, don't be like Asahel

There are two other 'come hither' moments. Let's look at them;

Revelation 17:1-3 (KJV)
And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great LovePeddler that sitteth upon many waters: 2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. 3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns

Revelation 21:9-10 (KJV)
And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God

Can you see that the three come hither moments are ACTUAL literal activities John experiences? How do you make one of them a symbol of rapture? Theories of men. This is called Eisegesis or reading your fantasies into a text. Do exegesis for once, that is allowing the text to speak to you

There is another 'come up hither' moment in Revelation but this time, John is witnessing it and not undergoing it. This is probably the closest one can get to rapture in Revelation 1-19. Let's look at it;

Revelation 11:11-12 (KJV)
And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

So why won't Image123 and his handlers invoke this?
It's simple; the two witnesses were slain by the Beast!

Revelation 11:7 (KJV)
And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them

The problem with 'seeing' rapture here is, it means the church is raptured AFTER the Beast has shown up. But this is precisely what they are desperately trying to avoid. In their fickle theories, rapture happens BEFORE the Beast shows up

Nobody talked about a "come hither", we have been clearly quoting "come UP hither". The Revelations 11 passage is clearly a resurrection. Those two witnesses are part of the FIRST resurrection and will also reign with Christ. It's 2people resurrecting, and it's in the middle of the great tribulation, why should i refer to them? We are talking about saints in the church being globally raptured BEFORE the tribulation. Take note,
1Co 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
Not everybody will die, needing a resurrection in the literal sense, but we will ALL be changed, receiving celestial bodies.

vooks:

I have a problem with amateur expositors who invoke 'mystery' when their incoherent ramblings are called out.

Please keep those problems to yourself. Eschatology is evidently not understood by all. In other words, it is mysterious to some, you really don't need a Bible verse to get that plain fact.

Nonsense. Give me example of one hidden doctrine. And while at it, remember Joseph Smith taught this and claimed the Book of Mormon is among what was to be revealed in these last days

i didn't mention anything about hidden doctrines or about any Joseph Smith. Your penchant for boring red herrings needs to be tamed by yourself of course. However, not every believer understands every doctrine perfectly. You can't know it all. The gospel, faith and grace is what is every believer's base and enough to obtain eternal life. Even that, unbelievers still find mysterious. There are foundational teachings in the faith which are like milk while there are other teachings that are like meat.

Fertile imagination. Where is rapture in Revelation? Is this event so insignificant that it does not get any mention yet Paul and Jesus dwelt on it at length?

Paul tells us the man of sin will be destroyed at Jesus' coming and John in Revelation 19 captures this! Peter tells us of the earth melting and the heaven rolling away and we have this in Revelation. So, where do we find Rapture since your indoctrinated brains can't accept a simple truth that rapture which follows resurrection is found in Rev 20:4?

Paul and Jesus don't dwell at length on the rapture, they only touched it briefly. The saints/church is the one withholding the antichrist from showing face. As soon as they are gone in the Rapture, he will show his face.
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Amen


And what's the difference between the saints under the altar and the resurrected saints?

Ever thought through this, the beast rises in chapter 13 but the saints under the altar show up 5 chapters before in chapter 6?

Arrrrghhhh, i surely wouldn't do a Revelations commentary for you. In fact, as the Lord liveth, this should be my last reply on this. It is not by force for you to understand eschatology, go and do something productive and edifying to you and others.
The beast is seen already in chapter 6, the guy on the white horse, coming in peace and gaining acceptance before striking.
Rev 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
What's the beast just coming to do if he's missed out of the whole actions of chapters 6-12?

The angel is a FELLOW SERVANT. Their fellowship/similarity is in SERVITUDE, in serving God not humanity. Are you accusing John of necromancy? You need to burn all the junk you have been regurgitating on Revelation

Contrast the apostles when MEN attempted to worship them,
Acts 14:14-15 (KJV)
Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out, 15 And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein:


He is an angel because Bible says so.Jesus sent his angel. So all the talking is either from Jesus or an angel. Since this particular voice would not suffer worship, it was not Jesus but the angel.

See
Revelation 1:1 (KJV)
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Revelation 22:16 (KJV)
I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.


Is this clear?

You've got to be kidding me, please confirm that you have read the book of Revelation from beginning to the end? Firstly, humans and angels are about the same in heaven according to Jesus.
Mat 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
Mar 12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
i would not be surprised if you still do not see the clear fact that IN THE RESURRECTION, humans are as the angels. Secondly, even the pastors of the seven churches are referred to as angels all through Revelations 2 and 3. Thirdly, John interacted with different set of people through his vision, they were not like zombies, the beasts(living creatures) spoke with him, the elders did and the real abi literal angels did. However in the case in question, the angel clearly referred himself as a BRETHREN, fellow brethren having the testimony of Jesus. An heavenly angel has nothing to do with the testimony of Jesus.

Quote it.

Already did and will do again.
Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will show thee things which must be hereafter.
After the time of the church on earth, the hereafter occurs in the which we shall not all sleep but shall be changed. The people alive will not prevent or even precede the people asleep, but they will all be caught up together unto the Lord in the air. It is this period that the door was opened, and from there onwards the elders and saints participate fully in Heaven's activities.

Epic confusion.
Walk me through Rev 4-20 and distinguish between resurrected and unresurrected saints because frankly speaking here is NONE even remotely hinted at.

Sleep is a METAPHOR for death, a very apt one physically because;
1. The physical inactivity of the dead
2. The appearance of the dead as if they are sleeping.

Spiritually, they are very much alive and fully conscious. What in Image123 imagination is 'ASLEEP in Jesus as it were'?

All saints are resurrected and raptured like the five wise virgins.Those that die after go under the altar and wait for the others to be complete.
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
They don't get to participate actively like other raptured saints and elders, though it's just for a season, they rest.

Great scriptures but NONE serve your vain heresy of multiple resurrection of the saints

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Great promise i believe, it is not my fault that you refuse to believe.

Every thinking believer knows this is nonsense and the coming of Jesus is a one time event so quick that Christians look forward to. How do I look forward to something spanning 1000 years?

Again, all I need are scriptures not fantasies. Quote any reference to coming of Jesus that suggests a span of 1000 years.

Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV)
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Note;
1. It happens after the tribulation
2. ALL shall weep which obviously mean they will see him, else how would they weep over some magical coming?
3. He comes with the great sound of a trumpet
4. He shall gather his Elect at His coming.
This is how Jesus COMES; with power and glory. If you imagine a different coming other than this, you ought to be a shamed of yourself and repent.

Judgement happens at the coming of the Lord, rapture happens at the coming of the Lord, millenial reign happens at the coming of the Lord. Check your Bible for confirmation. These three events span about 1000years it seems.

Does holistic mean conjuring a rapture out of Revelation 4:1. Then holistic to you is a synonym of hallucination



It happens at Jesus coming, returning. Not before, not after. Revelation 20:4 is clear on his. They live and then reign.

i cannot open that head of yours and deposit it, you know?

If you had scriptures and not fantasy tales, I'd respect you. You don't and are exasparated that I don't flinch . I can't possibly ground you in the word my broda, I can only encourage you like Paul to be so you are not carried away by every wind of stupidity and rank heresy.

i don't need you to respect me.

Reading rapture in Rev 4:1 is delusion, May be the strong delusion God sends the unbelievers.




Multiple resurrection of the saints remains a rank heresy that has zero scriptural basis.
Resurrection of the saints is found immediately after the beast has been slain in Revelation 20:4

Fixing resurrection in 4:1 is ADDING to scriptures. You are in danger of hellfire

Enjoy yourself, and wok on your caustic and corrosive mode of discussion. It adds nothing to the forum.

Image123:


Already did and will do again.
Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will show thee things which must be hereafter.
After the time of the church on earth, the hereafter occurs in the which we shall not all sleep but shall be changed. The people alive will not prevent or even precede the people asleep, but they will all be caught up together unto the Lord in the air. It is this period that the door was opened, and from there onwards the elders and saints participate fully in Heaven's activities.
.

You know my good broda, the problem with this theory that John's LITERAL activity are somewhat symbolic of the church is inconsistency. You really have to cherrypick. Subjectivity creeps in. One can claim that when John fell down before the angel to worship him points to some point in Church history bla bla.

You have no scriptural basis for reading rapture onto Revelation 4:1, all you have is your determination to place it there. Herein lies your circular reasoning; 'there is rapture in Revelation 4 because I believe Revelation 4 is talking about rapture'

John is not a participant nor a character in the prophecy. The characters are Jesus, Angels, dragon, beasts, image of beasts,elders, cities,hills,horns,crowns....all that John records but not himself. This removes his activities out of our scope of interpretation of Revelation. Reading the glorious resurrection of the saints outside John's narrative and into his literal acts is no theology but theorizing.