| Re: God(s) And Our Ignorance by donnffd(m): 10:19am On Nov 18, 2015 |
johnydon22:
Maybe you should have checked the meaning of Theory..
Theories are accepted principles or set of principles that explains an observed fact or facts..
evolution theory is a theory that explains the facts of natural selection, mutation and adaptation mechanism in the development of biological organisms..
Evolutionary mechanisms or should i say trend is far more complex than people make it out to be.
Here people make it out to be a form of chain-like pattern of transition which it is not, it entails a complex more like a web-like pattern of biological distinctions and development..
Good.. There is no evolution theory...thats my point, look at it this way, Gravity is a fact, a phenomenon of the natural world, Isaac Newton profound his laws of gravity, more like a manual on how gravity works, he never said anything about the internal mechanisms and how gravity is been propagated, Einstein answered those questions by his theory of general relativity, he explained that gravity is propagated by the warping of space and time or popularly known as spacetime... Isaac started, he left some holes, Einstein stepped in and filled in lots of the gaps but one thing never changed...GRAVITY, they were all talking about the fact of Gravity. Same with Evolution, Evolution is a fact, it doesnt change, we know that organisms evolve, now the question is , HOW DO THEY EVOLVE?... We can talk of Mutation, mixed with natural selection, adaptation e.t.c, these are mechanisms that explain our evolution, someone tomorrow can wake up and give us another prove or explanation on how evolution works and it would be correct but the base or foundation he would start from just like GRAVITY is EVOLUTION. so evolution is not a theory, It is A FACT 1 Like |
| Re: God(s) And Our Ignorance by johnydon22(m): 11:02am On Nov 18, 2015 |
donnffd:
There is no evolution theory...thats my point, look at it this way, Gravity is a fact, a phenomenon of the natural world, Isaac Newton profound his laws of gravity, more like a manual on how gravity works, he never said anything about the internal mechanisms and how gravity is been propagated, Einstein answered those questions by his theory of general relativity, he explained that gravity is propagated by the warping of space and time or popularly known as spacetime... Isaac started, he left some holes, Einstein stepped in and filled in lots of the gaps but one thing never changed...GRAVITY, they were all talking about the fact of Gravity. Same with Evolution, Evolution is a fact, it doesnt change, we know that organisms evolve, now the question is , HOW DO THEY EVOLVE?... We can talk of Mutation, mixed with natural selection, adaptation e.t.c, these are mechanisms that explain our evolution, someone tomorrow can wake up and give us another prove or explanation on how evolution works and it would be correct but the base or foundation he would start from just like GRAVITY is EVOLUTION. so evolution is not a theory, It is A FACT
Understandable and coherent ...
Newton ascribed gravity as a force while Einstein described it as the effect of space/time distortion by the mass of a body and not a force.
But the fact remains all things with Matter are attracted together (Gravity).
So the point you are trying to make is that; it is a fact organisms developed but the tenets of this development can be termed a theoretical postulation and not the assertion of gradual development itself (evolution).
I think this works for someone evolutionarily inclined.. |
| Re: God(s) And Our Ignorance by donnffd(m): 11:24am On Nov 18, 2015 |
johnydon22:
So the point you are trying to make is that; it is a fact organisms developed but the tenets of this development can be termed a theoretical postulation and [b]not the assertion of gradual development itself (evolution).
[/b] Well yes, just that gradual development(Evolution) is already asserted, how did it gradually develop?, that is open to debate... |
| Re: God(s) And Our Ignorance by Nobody: 3:33am On Nov 20, 2015 |
The question atheist ask is "how do you know there is a God, can you prove it?" Can you prove he doesn't? The most feeble of all answers and evidence comes from the believes, but then again we are not bothered that others don't believe in the existence of a Supreme being, we are not persuaded to prove to the unbelievers that we aren't fools or ignorant. Rather we are baffled that there are people that believe there is no God. Nature itself points to the existence of a supreme being. Everything does, even the intelligence and beauty of man. Because a child aspires to be a doctor at 12 a nurse at 14 the president at 18 and ends up studying agriculture in the university does not mean those aspirations are void or mere chasing of the wind, it doesn't imply that fulfillment of dreams do not exist. Because we have different believes of the existence of different ultimate and only existing true being, doesn't mean that one does not exist. Most of the things you mentioned are true, man always gives excuses for his inability, but that's doesn't dispute the existence of a supreme being. 1 Corinthians 1:22-23 For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness johnydon22:
[b]
I have many times discussed with theistic people both religious and irreligious and many times have been about the existence of God or Gods.
One thing is very clear, all the arguments i have seen from the believers side is always banked on "IGNORANCE of men"
This line of argument not only is it shallow has also betrayed a sort of incuriosity in ascertaining empirically the actuality of these events of phenomena's man has not yet known or explained.
You see something like.
- How was the world created? Since you can't explain it then God did it..
- What brought the universe into existence, since you don't know how that happened then God did it.
- Can you explain the emergence of life, since you don't know then God did it.
-Do you know how the pyramids of Egypt where built, No Gods did it.
This above sums up the totality of it all. . ."I don't know how this happened then God did it"
This line of thought is as dangerous to the curiosity of man as every other thing and it can be a detriment to development of human knowledge in determining how these things happened.
It is a relic of a primitive mindset, a noble but yet i find to be a childish attempt in explaining what is... The ancient men way of explaining a large world they don't even understand yet..
That is where many phenomenas and events where attributed to Gods that are not any more than the personification of the actual reacting elements responsible for these and this has eaten deep into the psychology of humans and sadly through indoctrination has eaten deep into that of 21st century humans an era marked with outstanding scientific enquiry and achievements.
You get things like.
How did this world came to be, the ancients provided answers. . ( Mind you these men knew nothing more than what they can see on earth, they had no idea what the milky way galaxy is talk more of knowing there are others)
Their answers were Gods did it.
To the Egyptians it was ATUM and others deities that did as recorded in the egyptian book of pyramids (one of the very first religious texts known to man)
In babylonian mythology it was Apsu and Tiamat as recorded in Enuma elis
In Canaanite mythology the God el did
In jewish myth Yahweh did.
And so spans to more than 2,900 different versions of creation story found in different cultures and religion in antiquity.
These people were trying to explain the emergence of the world they live in... These stories imbedded in the different cultural decorums of the people where they are found.
The problem with this is that it does not answer the question it only postpones it and stops a mind from striving to know through consistent study and empirical observation how it actually happened.
Because since you think you know, how can you still know that which you already know?
Modern science would dub planetary formations the action of Gravity on matter (Star debris)
...
That we do not know how something did or not have an explanation YET is not a ground for unfounded assumptions dogmatized as a universal truth and worse of all needs to be believed by FAITH.
Long ago we used to think Lightening was because Amadioha got angry, now we know better and nobody is arguing amadioha does that anymore.
That we didn't know how lightening came to be does not mean amadioha must be real to explain how lightening came to be... It means we don't know and that is that.
That we don't know how the universe came to be means we don't not that Gods did it, It simply means we don't
For every claim empirical substantiation is required therefore if one asserts to know how the universe came to be one must be ready to back up their claim empirically by producing methods of deduction.
But no, just ask someone how they got to deduct that fact and you hear "My holy book says so then i believe it with faith"
The idea of "Gods did it" have been one that always feeds on the ignorance of men....
Many people who are familiar with the scientific explanation of planetary formations no longer claim Gods did it but they will have to shift that claim to a premise man have no established knowledge of yet.
So who created the universe?
The things that we know and have explanations for, nobody claims God or Gods are responsible for them ..
But
when we have no explanation for something YET then automatically it becomes evidence for God did it.
Ignorance as regard an event or phenomenon is not evidence for Gods or God but it is only evidence of Ignorance.
That one do not know or explain yet through empirical deductions the emergence of the universe doesn't mean a God did it, it means we don't know yet.
Let us not use our ignorance as a butter to eat unfounded assumptions....
Many in this dogmatic tilt of belief has tend to chastise science and in such mind make science out to be a belief system.
Science in no way has ever hoped on establishing immutable dogmas or postulations that must be believed, science is study through systematic deduction in order to reach a truthful approximation at the same time recognize chances of being wrong and in no way ever asserts absolute truth has been achieved.
What man cannot explain now does not require God to fill that gap, it means we do not have the explanation yet and so we should strive to know and not assume up answers.
In such sheepish line of argument one would in a desperate attempt would label the burden of proof on the one who doubts such claims.
e.g: You hear questions like " Can you prove a creator God didn't do it?"
For crying out loud i can't also prove it wasn't an invisible pen that did it...
How can one disprove that which you the claimant has not proven, that is like disproving nothing..
Let me hope we don't fill our heads with dogmas of knowing and kill our ability to know what really is...
The claims of "God did it" being a relic of a primitive past, i find it to be noble but yet a childish attempt and a gap filler in the face of a premise where we lack knowledge.
We shouldn't be ashamed to agree we don't know there is no shame in it, the only problem arises when assumptions and irrational assertions and attendant behaviours fills the gap left by our ignorance...
The "God did it" will always rely on the ignorance of man for basis [/b]
1 Like |
| Re: God(s) And Our Ignorance by johnydon22(m): 7:36am On Nov 20, 2015 |
AkunneObinna:
The question atheist ask is "how do you know there is a God, can you prove it?" Can you prove he doesn't?
We call this burden of proof reversal, the one who makes a claim is supposed to prove the actuality of his claim not the one who doubts it.
Ok there is a giant red cow orbiting neptune now, can you prove there isn't?
The most feeble of all answers and evidence comes from the believes, but then again we are not bothered that others don't believe in the existence of a Supreme being, we are not persuaded to prove to the unbelievers that we aren't fools or ignorant. Rather we are baffled that there are people that believe there is no God.
Oh many of you go about threatening unbelievers how your deity is going to burn them for not believing it. . Many sell of your deities not only to be childish but egositic.
Nature itself points to the existence of a supreme being. Everything does, even the intelligence and beauty of man. Because a child aspires to be a doctor at 12 a nurse at 14 the president at 18 and ends up studying agriculture in the university does not mean those aspirations are void or mere chasing of the wind, it doesn't imply that fulfillment of dreams do not exist. Because we have different believes of the existence of different ultimate and only existing true being, doesn't mean that one does not exist.
You know what this is? this is like me saying.. the orbit of neptune points to the existence of the red cow. . . Nature points to no humanoid speaking it into existence.
Natural complexity and manifestation stems from diverse reactions of diverse elements . .
this is one of the weakest line of arguement people always pull out...
Most of the things you mentioned are true, man always gives excuses for his inability, but that's doesn't dispute the existence of a supreme being.
I didn't intend it to be you made it so.
the simple truth is your beliefs have no weight on reality, you believe there is a humanoid being somewhere that has anger issues but created the universe is just your belief it doesn't make it true.
If you want to assert a being then you have to substantiate that claim and not pull the weak argument above claiming the diversity of natural interactions is the work of your deity, that is another claim
1 Corinthians 1:22-23
For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom;
23 but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness
Oh the bible, i cannot fathom why you as a 21st century being still revolve your thinking around and ancient book that thinks satyrs and dragons are real whose doctrines addressed a specific ancient society and so cannot be a basis of 21st century ethic or you bolt yourself down a past we are ahead of.
Well that is the choice of the individual.. 2 Likes 1 Share |
| Re: God(s) And Our Ignorance by Nobody: 5:05pm On Nov 20, 2015 |
johnydon22:
We call this burden of proof reversal, the one who makes a claim is supposed to prove the actuality of his claim not the one who doubts it.
Ok there is a giant red cow orbiting neptune now, can you prove there isn't?
Oh many of you go about threatening unbelievers how your deity is going to burn them for not believing it. . Many sell of your deities not only to be childish but egositic.
You know what this is? this is like me saying.. the orbit of neptune points to the existence of the red cow. . . Nature points to no humanoid speaking it into existence.
Natural complexity and manifestation stems from diverse reactions of diverse elements . .
this is one of the weakest line of arguement people always pull out...
I didn't intend it to be you made it so.
the simple truth is your beliefs have no weight on reality, you believe there is a humanoid being somewhere that has anger issues but created the universe is just your belief it doesn't make it true.
If you want to assert a being then you have to substantiate that claim and not pull the weak argument above claiming the diversity of natural interactions is the work of your deity, that is another claim
Oh the bible, i cannot fathom why you as a 21st century being still revolve your thinking around and ancient book that thinks satyrs and dragons are real whose doctrines addressed a specific ancient society and so cannot be a basis of 21st century ethic or you bolt yourself down a past we are ahead of.
Well that is the choice of the individual.. is that u on your DP? U look way young for ur faculty of thinking... u studying philosophy I'll wanna guess!!! Anyway just as a writer initially said; u cannot proof /unproof their is no God; so it's all a matter of believe!!! And believe me wheen I say most of these believes comes from experiences, while others cultures handed down... I'll give u an instance... U cannot tell someone that have been having numerous challenges in life or someone dying of a severe medical condition scientist could not unravel who prayed to God and got his problem solved or healed instantly... u cannot tell such person to believe there is no God... he might murder u... All in all my broda; nobody is a fool... we all have reasons for our actions... people believing in something have their reasons!! All the beest.. |
| Re: God(s) And Our Ignorance by johnydon22(m): 5:24pm On Nov 20, 2015 |
Raymondenyi:
is that u on your DP? U look way young for ur faculty of thinking... u studying philosophy I'll wanna guess!!! Well yes that is me on my profile . . So young? i couldn't guess there is any expected age for it... I can only imagine what age you make me out to be..lol..
Naaah not really studying philosophy, aspiring Astrophysics is more like it..
Anyway just as a writer initially said; u cannot proof /unproof their is no God; so it's all a matter of believe!!! And believe me wheen I say most of these believes comes from experiences, while others cultures handed down...
Of course it all has to do with the psychological tilt of the believer or unbeliever..
Neither can anybody here disprove or prove that i don't have a black winged horse right now in my yard.. Absence of proof on my part as the claimant reduces my claim to a mere claim bearing no weight until substantiated.
God supposedly should be an existential entity, why is it that when it comes to an existential entity like the sun nobody choose to believe it rather we are certain of it but when it comes to the premise of Deities it becomes a matter of leap of Faith..
It betrays an unsure vague and baseless concept..
I'll give u an instance...
U cannot tell someone that have been having numerous challenges in life or someone dying of a severe medical condition scientist could not unravel who prayed to God and got his problem solved or healed instantly... u cannot tell such person to believe there is no God... he might murder u...
That is it, it always deals with the psychological tilt of the subject.. Some can argue with you till death that it was a lucky charm they had on, some would maintain it was they fluffy bunny slippers, some would even assert their dead relative did it.
This is all there is.. BELIEF...holds no water on reality neither does it automatically make the claim true. . . It only shows attributing flimsy cases of placebo to unsure concepts..
All in all my broda; nobody is a fool... we all have reasons for our actions... people believing in something have their reasons!!
Mostly because they were indoctrinated from childhood to believe them, taught at a very young age dependency on abstract concepts, taught to base their thinking on books written by a society we are way ahead of in terms of ethics and development.
My brother nobody really is a fool and most really had no choice, but it is our choice and our undying right to question things asserted without empirical substantiation especially one that discards curiosity and roots on such a dishonest quality as Faith..
All the beest..
You too sir 3 Likes 3 Shares |
| Re: God(s) And Our Ignorance by alexanorah: 12:22pm On Nov 21, 2015 |
malvisguy212:
trash!!!
The op misunderstood the christian faith.
Because faith is sometimes described as believing in things that cannot be seen, does it mean a christian cannot ask questions? Are you not a former christian? How did you arrived at this stage of your belief? You are not qualified to interpret the bible talkless of faith.
God tells us that we are to love Him with
more than our heart. We are to have a
relationship that is emotional and
intellectual:
Matthew 22:37-38
"You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your MIND. This is the great and foremost commandment."
When we examine our world and the
evidence for the existence of God, we are worshipping God with our mind and this kind of worship pleases God.it is either we worship him with our mind or NOT.
Christians Are Called to Examine Their
Beliefs. God wants us to know what we believe and why we believe it. We’re not called to numbly trust everything that might be taught in our world today,even if some Christian teacher is the source! We’re expected to be critical, skeptical and thoughtful:
1 Thessalonians 5:19-21
Do not quench the Spirit; do not
despise prophetic utterances. But
EXAMINE EVERYTHING CAREFULLY; hold fast to that which is good…
1 John 4:1
Beloved, DO NOT BELIEVE EVERY SPIRIT BUT TEST THE SPIRIT to see whether they are from God; because many false
prophets have gone out into the world.
Skepticism is important to the Christian
faith; skepticism causes us to examine
what we believe and search for the
evidence that confirms our beliefs. God
honors this kind of skepticism because
He knows that it leads to a deeper faith
in Him.
Christians Are Called to be Convinced
of What They Believe God wants us to be certain and base our certainty on evidence that can be articulated to others who may have doubts:
Romans 14:5
Let each man be FULLY CONVINCED IN HIS OWN MIND.
Conviction is the result of certainty, and
certainty is the result of evidential
confidence. We are called to be convinced by mastering the evidence
that supports what we believe. The
Christians life is not one of "wishful
thinking"or"hope in the unreasonable".
It is a life of certainty, grounded in the
evidence.
Conclusions
Christians can be "case makers" precisely because the Christian faith is an evidential faith. When we, as Christians, argue for the truth of the Christian Worldview, we are not sharing an opinion. There either is a God, or there is not. Jesus is that God, or He is not. Salvation comes through Christ alone (as Jesus Himself maintained), or it does not. This is not a matter of opinion, personal preference or wishful thinking. The Christian faith is grounded in evidence that can be assessed and evaluated. The Christian faith is an evidential faith.
I want to ask you a questions but I remember you're not an evolutionist what else can you Christians write without putting up your damned book? why can't you explain things in a better understanding of all? |
| Re: God(s) And Our Ignorance by OgundeleT(m): 7:51pm On Nov 26, 2015 |
johnydon22 has been giving theist a tough headache right from time of immemorial, u av been trying to give them more reasons to use there brain but they choose to go with the Jew mythology.. 2 Likes 1 Share |
| Re: God(s) And Our Ignorance by dabosuker(m): 11:21pm On Nov 27, 2015 |
ValentineMary:
I would have ignored u but I can't stand seeing such ignorance due to religion. Evolution is not a person that does things, it is a gradual process of adaptation and modification. If we were arguing on evolution 50 years ago, I would tell u that I have no proof of it but in 2015, there is more than enough proof to show that Darwin was right. First of all archeological findings of animals inbetween apes and humans (either homo erectus, homo nadalis) but these animals are no longer in existence and moreover they are neither ape nor man. So where did they go? "Evolution did it".
Have u ever wondered why penicilin no longer kills malaria? let me explain 4 u. Penicilin desrupts the enzyme serine protease glycopeptide transferase which is essential in cell plasma synthesis of Plasmodium Falciparium. But after some years, the plasmodium Falciparium discovered an altrnative pathway to making plasma membrane thus passing this procedure to their offspring through DNA. This is a good example of modification and adoration. So my dear u obviously have a lot of reading to do before u assume that ur deity did it. Pls what do u take ?....emm ..Bar man abeg give him/her whatever him/her desires to drink  God bless you!.... it pains my heart how religion has blocked the thinking & reasoning faculty of people,...what pains me more is  when even young people can not reason ,..or should i say dare not to reason. after the recent discovery of "Homo nadalis", or whatever , i have started to give Darwin more than 60% personally, why ?....because it makes more sense than whatever religion would tell you  ...these things are happening!..people are just not thinking ! why are malaria drugs no longer effective? same with insecticides, even cockroaches refused to be eradicated ??..Evolution, brought about by survival ........people need to understand that we are all just organisms on earth trying to knock off each other, "Competition", illness is far from spiritual ..there is a war constantly going on BTW organisms on planet earth, its all physical ! the fact that we have not been able to explain it, should not necessarily make it Spiritual . people lets start reasoning, lets start thinking ...I guess that's why God gave us a reasoning & analytical brain ........or did he make a mistake   ... 2 Likes 1 Share |
| Re: God(s) And Our Ignorance by johnydon22(m): 8:18am On Dec 06, 2015 |
OgundeleT:
johnydon22 has been giving theist a tough headache right from time of immemorial, u av been trying to give them more reasons to use there brain but they choose to go with the Jew mythology.. Lol.. |
| Re: God(s) And Our Ignorance by johnydon22(m): 10:06pm On Jan 11, 2016 |
dabosuker:
Pls what do u take ?....emm ..Bar man abeg give him/her whatever him/her desires to drink
God bless you!....
it pains my heart how religion has blocked the thinking & reasoning faculty of people,...what pains me more is when even young people can not reason ,..or should i say dare not to reason. after the recent discovery of "Homo nadalis", or whatever , i have started to give Darwin more than 60% personally, why ?....because it makes more sense than whatever religion would tell you ...these things are happening!..people are just not thinking ! why are malaria drugs no longer effective? same with insecticides, even cockroaches refused to be eradicated ??..Evolution, brought about by survival ........people need to understand that we are all just organisms on earth trying to knock off each other, "Competition", illness is far from spiritual ..there is a war constantly going on BTW organisms on planet earth, its all physical ! the fact that we have not been able to explain it, should not necessarily make it Spiritual . people lets start reasoning, lets start thinking ...I guess that's why God gave us a reasoning & analytical brain ........or did he make a mistake ... Good one |
