AlBaqir:


Fair enough @underlined. But information given in the hadith is enough to ask questions which you ran away from answering. Lets take it again.

# Agreed the hadith never named the garden.

# Bold, we have vital information as per its location. Aisha said:
{"I went out in the day of Al-Khandaq and I was standing behind the people, then I heard sounds of ground coming from behind me, I turned around and saw Sa'd Ibn Ma'az and his nephew ..."}

Aisha never made it upfront where the trench is. She only stood behind the warriors who were manning the trench preventing the enemies. This is some meters away from the trench (backward where people were standing).

She (Aisha) continues:
Then I entered a garden, and I saw that a group of people who had been there, among them was Umar Ibn al-Khattab.

* {"Then" Means: 'soon afterwards'}
* {I entered a garden - meaning she's no longer behind the warriors. Obviously she was not moving forward but going backward}

The fact that Aisha was at the back of EVERYONE, all indication is that the garden was AT THE BACK of the people.

You have the right to re-evaluate my submissions if it is faulty in anyway.

More conjectures and assumptions, so there is no sideways, to the left or right? Only backwards? The narration did not say she turned back, and was it the direction she came from initially? Because that would mean that she passed the garden when she was coming to the battlefield abi? Are these the conjectures you want me to believe and be arguing with? I do facts, not your assumptions and suspicions; the religion is not based on assumptions and conjectures.

ALBaqir:

@Bold, it is a privilege to always be where His grace is. Not to mention the fact that Quran says: {Say (O Muhammad): 'If you love Allah, follow me...}

# Why would Prophet be looking for Umar when: {"If you help him (Muhammad) not, (it is no matter): For GOD did Indeed help him..."} [Quran].

# Why would Prophet be looking for Umar when he himself was ever busy preventing the evil allied forces from crossing the trench?!

# Why would Prophet be looking for Umar when the BRAVEST warrior (Ali), who never back down until victory is achieved, is by his side?

It is for Umar's sake to be by Prophet's side all the time and follow his every step. That is the only one thing that guarantee Allah's love and forgiveness.

This is you trying too hard to cover up your behind that you cannot answer my question, there is an authentic narration that indicates the Prophet (SAW), Abu Bakr and Umar (ra) where always moving together, in all books of history i have read, Abu Bakr and Umar are not just ordinary companions, they were close companions of the Prophet (SAW), the verse of the Qur'an does not help your twisted logic, it is on record that Abu Bakr and Umar (ra) followed the Prophet (SAW) of which Ali (ra) attest to it, an example is the issue of fadak, you may go back up and read to refresh you memory...

AlBaqir:
If we are to judge by Bukhari's documentation, Aisha should be around 9 - 11years at 5 A.H. Obviously, a small girl of her age is not expected outside AT ALL near the battlefield. So even coming out, making it to the field (behind the warriors), seeing warriors coming from her back and entering the field is too much.

# So Aisha's getting outside to the field is illegal therefore asking what Umar and his colleagues in their "safe haven" doing is not wise. Besides how will a child question men older enough to be her grandpas'. It is considered to be rude anywhere there is sense of humour.

# Umar came with the first attack.
Upon seeing Aisha when she entered, {Umar said: 'woe to you, what brought you here?! By God you are a bold woman, what made you think that you are safe of getting captured or get into trouble! She (Aisha) said: 'He kept blaming me so much until I wished that the earth splits so that I enter into it.'}.

# @underlined, I laughed in Ijebu. A good man will rather send the child back home where her mate hides under their mothers. After all the garden is at the back of the battlefield and absolutely enemies never crossed the trench, not to mention of defeating the Muslims or entering the city.

bros I need to advice you seriously, you will do astonishing well in the movie industry, or even novels, you should choose fiction, it suits you so perfectly...in fact, the way you are narrating this story, it is as if you were there do you shias receive special training for this? I've read a lot of these kind of write up from shia all over the internet.

Anyways, for Umar (ra) to have been that harsh and saying how brave she was, and why does she think that she can’t be abducted and something bad happens to her, indicates that where they were was not safe. So if the Prophet (SAW) knew she came to the battlefield, he would do what exactly? I’m quite interested, are women prohibited from fighting or coming to the battlefield? Which is it?

AlBaqir:
# Arabs use their turbans to cover their nose down not eyes. They only use the same turban to cover their eyes when wind blow sands/particles. This time, they are inside the garden (where there can be no wind blowing) and none of the warriors seen by Aisha outside going to the battlefield used mask, where there might be strong wind. The hadith says the man used MASK TO COVER HIS FACE (not even Turban).
# Once the ring leader (Umar) has been seen, and apparently others too, what's the point of the man-in-mask continue covering his face? Asiri ti tu naw.

# Talhah's statement of submission (to fate) was only out after he had fired back at Umar (to shot his mouth) who was raining woes on poor little Aisha, the great discoverer. Talhah said: {'Woe to you Umar! You said too much today, where is the place to escape or flee except towards Allah?'}

This statement clearly revealed those Sahabah were hiding but upon their busted plans, Talhah finally resigned to fate.
Quran revealed that EVERYBODY'S eye and throat is up not knowing what could befell.

Bros the proper translation of the word use nasyfah is a veil, not mask, please tell me how using a veil to cover your face automatically indicates you are hiding? Again these are more assumptions, conjectures and suspicion; you should bring facts, authentic proof, so far you have not brought one!

AlBaqir:
# That is "suicide" telling the Prophet because she herself went out illegally. So its a case of covering each other's secret - "mon sinu mon sikun"

What was Aisha, a girl of 9, doing outside very near the battlefield? That can never be sanctioned by the Prophet.

# Una don made Allah revealer of every event. One of the most daring event in the life of the Prophet (peace be upon him and his progeny) was the assassination attempt on his blessed life by a group of Munafiq among the Sahabah on his way back from Tabuk.

The event never merited a single ayah in the Quran. There are other daring events like that which never made it to the Quran.

If you fight in the battle, wounded or killed; or you choose to hide or sit at home, it does not hurt Allah and His Prophet in anyway. Everything you do, it is for your own sake. Please don't ask such a question again o.

More conjectures and assumptions, if it is not worthy for Allah (SWT) to mention it, and even the Prophet (SAW) did not hear of it or make mention of it, but Allah (SWT) mentioned those who flee, the munafiqs who lied and excused themselves, then what is your problem?! There is no single report that they were hiding, it means your statement is a lie, one not worth mentioning. If Allah (SWt) did not mention it, and the Prophet (SAW) did not mention it, who is AlBaqir, to come with his assumptions and suspicions about these companions of the Prophet (SAW)? Mind you, I do not mean a Quranic verse alone, there other forms of revelation to the prophet which are not documented as an ayah of the Qur’an. I keep on asking you AlBaqir, bring just one single narration that they were hiding? And none have been brought up till now. SMH

AlBaqir:

Umar's prohibition of Mut'ah was during his Khilafah. By that time, he had assumed the military and financial authority as against during the time of the Prophet.

1. Imam Muslim documents:

Ibn Abbas: I hesitated for a year, and I had intended to ask 'Umar b. al-Khattab concerning a verse. But I could not ask him OUT OF FEAR OF HIM, until he went out for Hajj and I accompanied him....and (I) said, "O Amir al-Mu'minin! Who were the two women who helped each other against the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, among his wives? He replied, "They were Hafsah and Aishah."
Ref: Sahih Muslim, vol.2, p.1105, #1479(31).

# During the time of the Prophet, you can read how Talhah rebuked him when he was woeing and blaming Aishah: 'Woe to you Umar! You said too much today...

Though at other times (during the lifetime of the Prophet), Umar used to be harsh to people especially the women. But Prophet always came to their rescue. Example:

2. Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal reports:

When Ruqayyah daughter of the Messenger of Allah (saw) died, the Messenger of Allah (saw) said: "Join our good friend, Uthman Ibn Madh‘oon," whereupon the women started to cry. Then Umar started to beat them with his whip, whereupon the Messenger of Allah (saw) said: "Let them cry!" And then said to the women: "But be careful not to whoop like Satan!" And then continued: "When the eye weeps and the heart becomes sad for a person, it is from Allah the Almighty and of His mercy, and what comes from the hand and the tongue it is from the Satan..."

Sheik al-Arnaut: This Hadeeth is Sahih

Ref: Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal. Vol. 3, Pg. # 345 - 346


3. Imam Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani also documents:

(About women in attendance at a funeral) what Ibn Abi Shayba has narrated is a proof, he has narrated it through Muhammad Ibn Amr Ibn Ata from Abi Huraira that the Messenger of Allah (saw) was in a funeral and Umar saw a women who cried. Umar shouted at her and the Messenger of Allah (saw) said: "O Umar leave her alone!" ....

Ref: Fathul Bari Sharh Saheeh Al-Bukhari. Vol. 4, Pg. # 18 - 19

Narrations are too many on Umar's harsh attitudes.

He Continues After The Death of the Prophet
Traditions aplenty here too. Example:

4. Imam Al-Tabari:

Narrated Younis from Ibn Wahab from Younis Ibn Yazid from Al-Zahri from Sa’eed Ibn Mosayyib who said: 'When Abu Bakr died, A'isha held a mourning gathering for him in which eulogies had been read, Umar was informed of it, so he came to her door and forbade them from mourning on Abu Bakr. They (the women) refused, so he (Umar) said to Hisham Ibn Al-Walid: "Enter and bring out for me the daughter of Abi Qohafa sister of Abi Bakr," when A'isha heard this she said to Hisham: "I forbid you from entering into my house!" Umar said to Hisham: "Enter, I allow you to do that!" So Hisham entered and brought out Umme Farwa sister of Abi Bakr to Umar, whereupon Umar started beating her with his whip for a while, when the mourners heard this they escaped.

Ref: Tarikh Al-Tabari. Vol. 3, Pg. # 423

5. Imam Abdul Razzaq Al-San‘ani:

Abdul Razaq - Ibn Oyaina - Amr Ibn Dinaar who said:

'When Khalid bin Al-Waleed died, the women gathered in the house of Maymoona (wife of the Messenger of Allah) and were crying, so Umar came and Ibn Abbas was with him and Umar had his whip (Darrah) with him, so he said: "O Aba Abdullah! Enter the house of the mother of believers and tell her to take her veil, and bring out the women for me," he said: Then he brought them out and Umar was hitting them with his whip, so the veil of one of those woman fell, whereupon the people said to Umar: "O Amir Al-Momineen! Her veil!" So he said: "so be it! She has no honour!" And Mo’ammar was astonished by his saying: "She has no honour!"

Ref: Al-Musannaf al' San'ani. Vol. 3, Pg. # 557

Umar's Treatment of Slaves

6. Imam Ibn Hajar:

Narration of Umar: "Take off your your veil, you stinky! Are you resembling yourself to free women?" I haven’t seen it in this form, but it is famously known that Umar has beaten a slave-girl who had veil and he said "Take off your veil, and do not resemble yourself to free women", it has been narrated by AbdulRazaq through an Authentic chain. And from Abdulrazaq from Ibn Jarij who said: "Umar beat Aqeela a slave-girl of Abi Musa because she wore Jilbaab (full veil)."

And Ibn Abi Shayba recorded another incident through an Authentic chain from Anas that:

Umar saw a slave-girl wearing Jilbaab (Full veil), whereupon he said: "Have you been freed?" She said: “No! He said: “put it off your head.” Jilbaab is for the freed women. She hesitated, so he went up to her with the whip (Darrah), and he hit her on the head, until she threw it. And narrated it Muhammad ibn AlHassan in Al-Athaar from Abi Hanifa from Himad from Ibraheem that Umar used to beat the slave-girls who wore veil and used to say: "Do not resemble yourselves to free women!"

Ref: Al-Diraya Fi Takhrij Ahadeeth Al-Hidayah. Vol. 1, Pg. # 124

7. Allamah Al-Albani:

Al-Bayhaqi has narrated through Hamad Ibn Salama from Thamana Ibn Abdullah Ibn Anas from his grandfather Anas who said: "The slave-girls of Umar were serving us with uncovered hair and their breasts were shaking/wobbling ( تضطرب)."

Al-Albani: The chain of this Hadeeth is 'Jayyid' (at a level between Hasan and Saheeh) and all of it’s narrators are trustworthy except the teacher of Bayhaqi Abul Qasim Abdul Rahman Ibn Ubaidullah Al-Harbi and he is very Truthful as Al-Khatib says and Al-Bayhaqi said: "And the reports from Umar Ibn Al-Khattab concerning that matter are authentic."

Ref: Irwa Al-Ghalil. Vol. 6, Pg. # 204

Such Is The Behaviour Of Umar b. al-Khattab
I hope you guys (Empiree, MrOlai, Sino, Kazlaw2000 {Oh sorry bros, na Astaghfirullah you dey seek for him}, et al find a good role model in Umar). Like I said, ahadith plenty on this should you need more so that you see something to emulate. These kinds of ahadith are what people like username see that made them run away from hadith. My brother Rilwayne001 is starting have that. May Allah guide our hearts aright to see the truth.

I have been able to show your conjectures, assumptions and suspicions, your twisted translation, and your lack of Islamic ethics. Right from when I was little, I have heard from sermons that Umar (ra) was a tough individual who was strict and harsh, that is his nature, that is how Allah (SWT) created him, and when he accepted Islam, the effects were apparent in his character. The Prophet (SAW) was reported to have said:

Ibn ‘Umar, may Allah be pleased with him and his father, reported that the Messenger of Allah, prayers and peace of Allah be upon him, has said, “The most compassionate person from my nation upon my nation is Abu Bakr and the most sever in the religion of Allah is ‘Umar” [Narrated by Ibn Majah 125 and authenticated by al-Albani]

Some of these narrations posted by AlBaqir have weakness, and some can only be understood in proper context, coupled with other narrations of which a reputable scholar of hadith (or Islam) is in the best position to explain. We do not take some random narrations, and form an opinion based on these random narrations, the evil in that is quite obvious, as we have seen here how AlBaqir has been castigating companions based on his own prejudiced opinions and suspicions. This is never the ways of people of knowledge, or even students of knowledge.

Be that as it may, I’ll not fail to expose the lies to the best of my ability (especially the treatment of slaves issue) as I am not a Scholar.

This is the narration from As-Sunan Alkubra by AlBayhayqi, from which I believe Sheikh Albany also quotes from:
وَأَخْبَرَنَا أَبُو الْقَاسِمِ : عَبْدُ الرَّحْمَنِ بْنُ عُبَيْدِ اللَّهِ الْحُرْفِىُّ بِبَغْدَادَ أَخْبَرَنَا عَلِىُّ بْنُ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ الزُّبَيْرِ الْكُوفِىُّ حَدَّثَنَا الْحَسَنُ بْنُ عَلِىِّ بْنِ عَفَّانَ حَدَّثَنَا زَيْدُ بْنُ الْحُبَابِ عَنْ حَمَّادِ بْنِ سَلَمَةَ قَالَ حَدَّثَنِى ثُمَامَةُ بْنُ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ أَنَسٍ عَنْ جَدِّهِ أَنَسِ بْنِ مَالِكٍ قَالَ : كُنَّ إِمَاءُ عُمَرَ رَضِىَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ يَخْدُمْنَنَا كَاشِفَاتٍ عَنْ شُعُورِهِنَّ تَضْرِبُ ثُدِيَّهُنَّ. {ق} قَالَ الشَّيْخُ : وَالآثَارُ عَنْ عُمَرَ بْنِ الْخَطَّابِ رَضِىَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ فِى ذَلِكَ صَحِيحَةٌ وَإِنَّهَا تَدُلُّ عَلَى أَنَّ رَأْسَهَا وَرَقَبَتَهَا وَمَا يَظْهَرُ مِنْهَا فِى حَالِ الْمِهْنَةِ لَيْسَ بِعَوْرَةٍ ، فَأَمَّا حَدِيثُ عَمْرِو بْنِ شُعَيْبٍ فَقَدِ اخْتُلِفَ فِى مَتْنِهِ فَلاَ يَنْبَغِى أَنْ يُعْتَمَدَ عَلَيْهِ فِى عَوْرَةِ الأَمَةِ ، وَإِنْ كَانَ يَصْلُحُ الاِسْتِدْلاَلُ بِهِ وَبِسَائِرِ مَا يَأْتِى عَلَيْهِ مَعَهُ فِى عَوْرَةِ الرَّجُلِ وَبِاللَّهِ التَّوْفِيقُ.

Before I translate, I’ll like to first state that this hadith is narrated in the chapter titled, the ‘awrah of the female slave. The narrations of Umar (ra) and beating of the slave girl was also narrated in this chapter, but important information about these narrations, which I have said some are weak, can be found in the above narration. Again just to give a little context, during the time of the Prophet (SAW) there were slaves, most of whom were captured after wars (wars against disbelievers), but Islam had a systemic way of eradicate slavery, part of which is, emancipating a slave being a great virtue was recommended. It can be understood that Islam is never forced on anyone, not even the slaves, so when Allah (SWT) sent down the revelation of the hijab, it is directed at the believing women, I stand to be corrected.

Translation of the above narration in Arabic:

Thamama Ibn Abdullah Ibn Anas reported from the authority of his grandfather, Anas Ibn Malik who said: we were attended to by the female slaves of Umar (ra) with their hair uncovered, touching their bossoms. Sheikh said: the narration from Umar Ibn Khattab (ra) on this is authentic because this points at the fact that her hair and her neck and what is visible about her in the condition of her occupation are not part of her ‘awrah (unclothedness). But the narration of ‘Amri Ibn Shu’ayb (the ones about Umar (ra) beating a slave girl and who was putting on jilbab), this report has variations in its content, it cannot be relied upon as evidence for the ‘awrah of a female slave…

In Sheikh Albany’s book (which AlBaqir quoted from), this same hadith from the same narrator was also presented, but the word used is not tadribu (translated here to mean to touch), but tadtaribu which is translated to mean shake and wobble by AlBaqir. It can be clearly seen that, this is a mistake, perhaps from the Sheikh himself or from another person. But due to the love to slander Umar (ra) by the shia, they would rather choose the wobble and shake, so as to portray Umar (ra) in a bad light. The question is, if it was wobble and shaking bosoms, like AlBaqir and his masters have said, was it during the life time of the Prophet (SAW) or it was after?! If it was after the demise of the Prophet (SAW), so no single Muslim, including the brave Ali (RA) who loves Allah (SWT) and the Prophet (SAW) could confront him and this supposed perverse activities in his house, and all the guest who came to his house were all just ogling? Including Anas Ibn Malik (ra)? They were all perverted Muslims too?! We read from one of the Ahl Bayt:

Ja’far Ibn Muhammad Al-Sadiq said:
“If something that you dislike reaches you about your brother then search for one excuse for him up to seventy excuses. If it hits the mark, (then good). If not, then say, ‘Perhaps he has an excuse that I am not aware of.‘ ” [Al-Jaami' Li Shu'ab Al-Eemaan, 14/442]

In regards to the repeated hadith of Umar (ra) beating a slave girl for putting on the jilbab of the Muslim woman, here is what the Sheikh AlBany said about a narrator of the narration
قلت : رجاله ثقات غير أحمد بن عبد الحميد فلم أجد له ترجمة
The narrators are trustworthy, except for Ahmad Ibn Abdul Hammed; I couldn’t find any introduction or explanation on him, i.e he is unknown.

these are all from the same book our shia brother is quoting from, it is mind boggling the lenght the shias can go to, just to dicredit a sahabah...twisting narrations, quoting parts that suits their goals, and criticizing the ones that do not, crazy translations, using weak narrations. there is no other name to call this than deceit!

For the sincere seeker of truth, it shouldn’t be difficult to see why it is very essential that one needs to be careful where one takes his/her knowledge, there are people who are ready to distort text, translate wrongfully and use any form of deceit just to propagate their agenda. This is never the way of truth. This is not what Islam teaches at all.

AlBaqir:


You are not mistaken at all. You've said so earlier that the hadith of al-Hakim and al-Hindi are 'suspected' and daef respectively. And I concurred with you.

However you agree with the one documented by Imam Ahmad that both of them (Abu Bakr and Umar) went and returned without achieving success.

@underlined, why? Is it because Abu Bakr and Umar were no match of them or they were too powerful than the Jews? And when you use the word "they" in the context of face to face combat, Imam Muslim reported that ONLY the Jews best fighter, Marhab challenged Ali b. Abi talib. Observe, even at that time, the Jews were still locked themselves in their fortress. Only Marhab, their bravest, and some few soldiers accompanied him came out. It was only when Ali killed Marhab that he broke their giant gate and the force of Islam had entrance into the fortress. This is what Imam Muslim and others reported. So, there is no doubt, that was exactly what happened to Abubakar and Umar - the gate of the fortress was locked up, Marhab came out to have a duel combat with them... But they both RETURNED WITHOUT ACHIEVING VICTORY.

On the other hands, that underlined statement of yours will even strengthened my assertions provided that report is Sahih/Hasan, as you shall see below.

So we are basing our discussion on the Sahih report of Imam Ahmad in his Musnad. Kindly read it once again so that you don't come back and give further excuses.

Now let us together look at this information given by the Prophet in the same hadith of Ahmad:

لا يرجع حتی يفتح له [/b]اني دافع الوا غدا الی رجل يحبه الله ورسوله ويحب الله ورسوله

"I will pass the flag to a man who loves Allah and His Messenger and Allah and His Messenger love him, [b]he will not escape /run/return (لا يرجع) UNTIL he succeeds(حتی يفتح له)".

1. Why does Prophet went to such extent explaining the characteristics of the new man he will send after the initial failures by the two Sheiks?

# Prophet said: "...he (the man) loves Allah and His Prophet and Allah and His Prophet loves him..."

Apparently others too (i.e Abu Bakr and Umar) also love Allah and His Prophet but the love is not of a degree that "...he will not escape /run/return UNTIL he succeeds". That is a die-hard love.

2. Success/victory is used by the Prophet in that hadith. The opposite of success is failure. In one word, Abu Bakr and Umar failed in conquering Khaybar.

* In previous battles (e.g Uhud and later Hunayn), it was the same troop that "ran away/retreat" who came back to finished off and won the battles. If the two Sheiks"returned" as a result of failed strategies (according to you or the Jews locked up themselves in the castle, also according to you), why were they not sent back individually or as large group to finish what they started?!

Other Narrations
# Imam Ibn Abdul Barr:

It has been narrated through a group of Sahaba like Sa’d Ibn Abi Waqqas, Sahl Ibn Sa’d, Aboo Huraira, Buraida Al-Aslami, Aboo Sa’eed Al-Khudri, Abdullah Ibn Umar, Imraan Ibn Al-Hussain and Salama Ibn Al-Akwah all of them with the same meaning from the Prophet (saw) who said in the day of Khaybar:

"Tomorrow I will pass the flag to a man who loves Allah and his Messenger (saw), and Allah and his Messenger (saw) loves him. He does not run away/turn back (ليس بفرار ) Allah (swt) will give put the victory on his hands. And then He called Ali while He had a ailment in his eyes, so the Prophet (saw) put his saliva on his eyes and gave him the flag, and Allah (swt) gave him victory. And these narrations all of them are firm and valid.

Ref: Al-Isti’ab. Vol. 3, Pg. # 1099 - 1100

# Imam Abi Shaybah with entirely another chain reports:

Ubaidallah - No’aim Ibn Hakim - Abi Maryam - Ali who said:

"The Messenger of Allah (saw) went out to Khaybar, when he reached it he sent Umar and a group of people with him to their town or their castle they went and fought them, but they could not do anything, and Umar with his companions came back to the Prophet (saw), his companions were saying that Umar is a coward and he was saying that his companions are cowards (فجاه يجبنهم ويجبنو نه ) and the Messenger of Allah (saw) got annoyed (فساه ذلك رسول اللّه صلی الله عليه وسلم فقال: ) and he said:'I will send a man towards them who loves Allah (swt) and his Messenger (saw) and Allah (swt) and his Messenger (saw) love him, he will fight with them until he succeeds, he does not run away (ليس بفرار ) The people raised their necks to see whom the Messenger of Allah (saw) will call, they wished to be that man. The Messenger of Allah (saw) remained silent for a while and then said: 'Where is Ali?' They said: 'He has an ailment in his eyes,' He (saw) said: 'Bring him to me.' When I came to him (saw), he opened my eyes and put his saliva on them and passed me the flag and then I went fast fearing that maybe the Messenger of Allah (swt) would change his decision. When I reached their castle and fought them, then Al-Marhab invited me singing epic verses, and I went to him singing epic verses like people do until we met and Allah (swt) killed him with my hands and his companions ran away and closed the door of their castle behind themselves. We went to the door and I did not stop trying to break it until Allah (swt) opened it.

Footnote: Narrated by Al-Bazzar and narrated also by Al-Hakim whom has Authenticated it and Al-Dhahabi has confirmed it. In Kanz-ulUmmal Al-Muttaqi Al-Hindi has said that it is Hasan 'Reliable.'

Ref: Al-Musannaf Ibn Abi Shaybah. Vol. 20, Pg. # 446



@underlined, you meant "to Abu Bakr and then to Umar. Understood.I hope you are not faulting the Prophet in whatever way. I trust you can never.

To your question, you need to read the full statement of the Prophet to understand why he made such pronouncement. {He (saw) said: "he (the man - Ali) loves Allah and His Prophet and Allah and His Prophet love him too. He will not return unless he has achieved victory"}

This is not a prophecy rather it is expression of Ali's die-hard characteristics. This is testified to by all the battles Ali fought with the Prophet. He never retreated/turn back and then return. Compare to others.

However if you insist its a Prophecy (perhaps using the fact that every decision of the Prophet is wahy), that even add strength to my point:

# Does the Prophet sent the Shaykhain on his own accord or he received wahy to send them?

# Those statement about Ali is wahy that means Abu Bakr and Umar did not have those qualities before Allah otherwise Prophet would have said so concerning them before leaving for Khaybar.

Whichever way you look at it, it does not pay your candidates at all.

I have addressed this issue of khaybar earlier, quit asking me to come up with conjectures and assumptions as you do, the authentic narrations, showed that Abu Bakr and Umar (ra) went to khaybar, the Jews didn’t confront them, and rather they stayed locked up, so they returned. You can come up with your usual conjectures and assumptions, over stretch facts as much as you can, it does not change the fact that Abu Bakr and Umar (ra) were respected companions of the Prophet (SAW) and his trusted close aides.

Yeah yeah, Ali (ra) the brave, the Prophet (SAW) specifically picked at khaybar, he loves Allah (SWT) and the Prophet (SAW), he never escapes/run/return until he achieves success, but who could only go to Abu Bakr and Umar (ra) just for fadak issue and not khalifah right? And eventually followed their rulings and guidance…Abeg when you have something tangible to say let me know… I won’t go down to the level of conjuring opinions and information with you, I give it to you, you are good at that.

I have a narration for you to chew on:
When the issue of denying fadak reached Ali (during his caliphate) so he Ali’s reply (ra) was: “I am ashamed before Allah to overturn something that was prohibited by Abu Bakr and (prohibition) continued by Umar.” {ibn Abil Hadid, Sharh Nahj al-Balaghah, vol. 4 p. 130]

OMG it is in the almighty Nahj al-Balagah!!! Oh it is a fabrication abi? AlBaqir?

@ Narration by Imam Abu Shaiba, the hadith is deaf (weak), stop quoting same hadith from different books, it is the same chain, and it is deaf.

AlBaqir, let me ask you, do you think I am responding to you so as to show that Abu Bakr and Umar were better than Ali (ra)? There is narration up there for you to chew on, tell us AlBaqir, give us the authentic narrations were Ali (ra) accused Abu Bakr or Umar of any wrong doing, where he called them names and said they were cowards, were he said they were lying and that they are just Muslims not Mu’mins, not the sahih Muslim which have already been dismantled. Please show us that you are truly a follower of Ali (ra), bring your proofs if you are truthful!

We believe Ali (ra) was a brave companion, one of the heroes of the Ummah, a lion heart, we hold him in high esteem, and we narrate his excellent qualities, we never undermine him, nor vilify him, nor slander him for any reason, it is you shia, that would be finding fault with the companions of the Prophet (SAW), after a stern warning from the Prophet (SAW) against doing such.

the Prophet (SAW) said:
“Allah, Allah! Fear Him with regard to my Sahabah! Do not make them targets after me! Whoever loves them loves them with his love for me; and whoever hates them hates them with his hatred for me. Whoever bears enmity for them, bears enmity for me; and whoever bears enmity for me, bears enmity for Allah. Whoever bears enmity for Allah is about to perish!”

(Narrated from Abdallah ibn Mughaffal by Al-Tirmidhi by Ahmad with three good chains in his Musnad, al-Bukhari in his Tarikh, al-Bayhaqi in Shu`ab al-Iman, and others. Al-Suyuti declared it hasan in his Jami` al-Saghir #1442)

AlBaqir:
The case of Hunayn

# Sino, my submission is very simple. Bukhari reported Umar FLED at Hunayn among those who fled. Plenty of other reporters claimed Umar was among the steadfast.

No doubt we have contrasting reports. You have settled for other reports and throw Bukhari's report into dust bin. All I need is your amiable, scholarly declaration that Bukhari's narration is Mawdoo (fabrication). That's all I've asked for.

# Sino, your case became worsen when you try to explain Bukhari's hadith to exonerate Umar. It is very shameful when people like you try to "edit report" to suit your agenda.

Here's your/copied statement:


Here's the original report for the tenth time:

Imam al-Bukhari documents:

AlLayth - Yahya b. Sa'id - Umar b. Kathir b. Aflah - Abu Muhammad, freed slave of Abu Qatadah - Abu Qatadah:

" On the day of Hunayn... The Muslims fled ( وانهزم المسلمون), and I too fled with them (وانهزمت معهم ). Suddenly, I met 'Umar b. al-Khattab amongst THE PEOPLE (فإذا بعمر بن الخطاب في الناس ) and I asked him, "What is wrong with THE PEOPLE?" He said, "It is the command of Allah." Then THE PEOPLE returned to the Messenger of Allah ( شم تراجع الناس الی رسول الله)."

Abu Qatadah revealed he met Umar amongst THE PEOPLE....and THEN, THE PEOPLE RETURNED TO THE MESSENGER OF ALLAH.

Here's your/copied word again:


Sino, are STEADFAST FIGHTERS have any course RETURNING (BACK) TO THE PROPHET?! You should have jeje continue your arguments on the fact that other reporters vindicate Umar rather than trying to explain hadith of Bukhari which clearly expose Umar's great flight along some others.

# Quran is a unique book that gives precise evaluation of things. Again the GENERAL PRONOUN used by Allah is crystal clear that ALL FLED except whom there is clear evidence he remained with the Prophet:

"Truly, Allah has helped you on many battlefields, and on the Day of Hunayn when you rejoiced at your great number but it availed you naught and the earth, as vast as it is, was straitened for you. Then you fled away." {surah Tawbah:25}

This is the same GENERAL PRONOUN used in the case of Uhud:

"When you ran off precipitately and did not wait for any one, and the Apostle was calling you from your rear, so He gave you another sorrow instead of (your) sorrow, so that you might not grieve at what had escaped you, nor (at) what befell you; and Allah is aware of what you do" [surah Aal Imran: 153].

Imam Muslim documents this confirmation:

Abu Uthman:
"None remained with the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, on some of the DAYS in which the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, was fighting apart from Talhah and Sa'd. They both (i.e Talhah and Sa'd) narrated that to me."
Ref: Sahih Muslim (Beirut: Dar Ihya al-Turath al-Arabi)[annotator: Muhammad Fuad Abd al-Baqi], vol.4, p.1879, #2414.

So how come 80 - 100 people will remained with the Prophet, and in such a heated battle somebody will be comfortable to make the head count. It is nothing but an exaggeration to cover the shame of cowards.

This is just plain repetition, saying the same thing in a different way does not make it the truth bro, read again, slowly this time:

By highlighting the phrase “the people” the Rafidi(Saba’ee) here wants to show us that everyone from the companions fled without exception. The only exception he might give to anyone is ‘Ali(ra). This is a fact that by a generalized term many a times a large portion is also intended instead of each and every individual. This is something obvious, not only in Arabic, but in any language.

The second contention in the hadith of Abu Qatadah is that since Abu Qatadah found ‘Umar (ra) among the people that means he must be running away. We say: Abu Qatadah did not say ‘Umar was also fleeing with others. If Umar (ra) was with Abu Qatada and those Muslims who were defeated (fleeing), then why did not Abu Qatada say “And Umar was amongst us” instead of saying Umar was amongst the people?. Abu Qatada only found ‘Umar in the rush of the people, this is all what the narration indicates and whatever these Rawafidh conclude from it is based on mere conjecture and speculation. It is possible that ‘Umar was stopping them and trying to make them silent and steady. Even the Prophet(saw) was calling them and stopping them from running away. This is besides the fact that there is a narration quoted earlier which shows that ‘Umar(ra) did not run away.

There is another version for the same hadeeth found in Bukhari which also does not give slightest indication that Umar (ra) was amongst those who took to flight”

Narrated Abu Qatada: We set out in the company of Allah’s Messenger (saw) on the day (of the battle) of Hunain. When we faced the enemy, the Muslims retreated and I saw a pagan throwing himself over a Muslim. I turned around and came upon him from behind and hit him on the shoulder with the sword He (i.e. the pagan) came towards me and seized me so violently that I felt as if it were death itself, but death overtook him and he released me. I followed `Umar bin Al Khattab and asked (him), “What is wrong with the people (fleeing)?” He replied, “This is the Will of Allah,” (Sahih al-Bukhari #3142)

And had the Rafidi taken up little effort to look into the sharh of the hadeeth, he would have saved some dignity, in case they have it.
Sharh Muslim (by Imam Nawawi)
قوله: (كانت للمسلمين جولة) بفتح الجيم أي انهزام وخيفة ذهبوا فيها، وهذا إنما كان في بعض الجيش.
Imam Al-Nawawi commenting on this hadeeths said…that the retreat or defeat was in some of the army (not all).

Sharh Bukhari (by Ibn Hajar)
قوله‏:‏ ‏(‏فلما التقينا كانت للمسلمين جولة‏)‏ بفتح الجيم وسكون الواو أي حركة فيها اختلاف، وقد أطلق في رواية الليث الآتية بعدها أنهم انهزموا، لكن بعد القصة التي ذكرها أبو قتادة، وقد تقدم في حديث البراء أن الجميع لم ينهزموا‏.
Similar comment was also made by Ibn Hajr in his sharh Bukhari who said: ‘and it is mentioned in the narration of Al-Laith which will follow that they were defeated, but (the defeat was) after the story which Abu Qatada mentioned, and it has been preceded in the hadeeths of Al-Bar’a that all were not defeated.’


If we go by the narration you posted from sahih Muslim of Abu Uthman, then it also means Ali (ra) also fled na, don’t be partial, everyone fled except Talha and Sa’ad, where was Ali (ra) in these narration? I have provided you with hadith and seerah proofs that Umar (ra) was not among those who fled, it is left for you to accept or deny, your conjectures have no value.

I wonder why your assumptions must always be the truth, the numbers reported are estimates, and worst case scenario, a guess. anyone with acuity can do this, regardless of the situation, and this report was after the battle, when the sahaba must have rested and refreshed. in most cases, you tend to recall events better, after it had happened and you have rested and relaxed. But all these are not important, a good number of Muslims stood with the prophet (SAW), it wasn't the Prophet and Ali (ra) that were alone, and authentic reports state that Umar (ra) was amongst those who stood with the prophet (SAW), I know this hurts you, but you cannot change these narrations or wipe them off...you can go back and read them again if you wish.

AlBaqir:


Imam al-Bukhari documents:

Ibrahim b. Musa – Hisham – Ma’mar – al-Zuhri – Ubayd Allah b. 'Abd Allah – Ibn ‘Abbas:

When the time of the death of the Prophet, peace be upon him, approached, and there were some men in the room, and among them was ‘Umar b. al-Khattab. He (the Prophet) said, “Come near. Let me write for you a document after which you will never go astray.” ‘Umar said, Verily, the illness has now fully possessed the Prophet, peace be upon him. And you have the Qur'an. So, the Book of Allāh is sufficient for us].”

The people in the room disputed. Among them were those who said, “Come near so that the Messenger of Allāh, peace be upon him, may write for you a document after which you will never go astray.” And among them were those who were repeating what ‘Umar said. When their noise and dispute became very rowdy in the presence of the Prophet, peace be upon him, he said, “Stand up and leave me.

Narrated ‘Ubayd Allah: Ibn ‘Abbas used to say: “It was a great disaster that their dispute and noise prevented the Messsenger of Allah, peace be upon him, from writing that document for them.

Source: al-Bukhari al-Ju'fi, al-Jami' al-Sahih al-Mukhtaṣar (Beirut: Dar Ibn Kathir; 3rd edition, 1407 H) [annotator: Dr. Mustafa Dib al-Bagha], vol. 6, p. 2680, # 6932}.

Imam Ibn Athir writes:

In the narrations of the illness of Allah's Apostle (saws), they said: "What is wrong with him? Has he lost his consciousness? Ask him." It means that 'is the Prophet talking nonsense because of his illness.' they wanted to know, and it means that 'is he delirious because of his illness?' This is the best way to interpret that narration and it should not be said as a declarative sentence, because it means either talking nonsense or delirious. AND THE PERSON WHO SAID THAT IS UMAR, AND THIS IS NOT AN ACCUSATION MADE AGAINST HIM.

Ref: Al-Nihaya Fi Gharib Al-Hadith, vol.1, p.#246.


RAISING ONE'S VOICE ABOVE THAT OF PROPHET

Allah declares: {"O you who believe, do not raise your voices above the voice of the Prophet nor address him the way you do each other lest your deeds be in vain and you perceive not. Those that lower their voices in the presence of the Prophet, they are those whose hearts Allah has tested for piety; for them is forgiveness and a great reward"}

Case 1
Sahih al-Bukhari, vol. 6, pg. 46 in "The chapter on the Interpretation of Sura al-Hujurat of the Quran"; also Sahih al-Bukhari, vol. 8, pg. 145 in "The chapter concerning Adherence to the Quran and Sunnah", under the heading of "What is disliked about embroiled and contention", Imam Bukhari documents:

"Waki' informed us from Nafi' b. Umar from Ibn Abi Malika that: 'The Two righteous ones, Abu Bakr and Umar, were nearly destroyed when the delegation of Banu Tamim came to the Prophet. One of them pointed to al-Aqran. Habis al-Tamim al-Hanzali, the brother of Banu Majasha, and the other indicated someone else. Then Abu Bakr said to Umar: Surely, you only wish to contradict me.' Umar said: 'I did not wish to contradict you'. And their voices rose in front of the Prophet, and the verse was revealed: {"O you who believe, do not raise your voices above the voice of the Prophet nor address him the way you do each other lest your deeds be in vain and you perceive not. Those that lower their voices in the presence of the Prophet, they are those whose hearts Allah has tested for piety; for them is forgiveness and a great reward"}

Ibn Abi Malika said that Ibn al-Zubayr [later] said: "Thereafter 'Umar didn't mention the matter regarding his father, i.e Abu Bakr, and whenever he spoke to the Prophet about something, he would do so in a whisper and could not be heard to the extent that the Prophet had to tell him to speak up."

# The incident of 'The Calamity of Thursday' where Umar assertively accused the Prophet of Allah of being fully possessed by his illness exposed the cover up of Ibn Zubair ^as read above.

Prophet Defend Himself

# Imam al-Bukhari (d.256H) further reports in a summarized version:

Qubayṣah – Ibn ‘Uyaynah – Suleiman al-Aḥwal – Sa'id b. Jubayr – Ibn ‘Abbas, may Allah be pleased with them both:

“Thursday! And what a Thursday it was!” Then, he (Ibn ‘Abbas) wept till the stones on the ground were soaked with his tears. Then, he said, “The illness of the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, became severe on Thursday, and he said, ‘Bring me a sheet of paper so that I may write a document for you after which you will never go astray’. They differed, and it is not proper to differ in front of a prophet. So, they said, ‘The Messenger of Allah is RAVING MADNESS. He (the Prophet) replied, ‘Leave me, as I am in a better state than what you are calling me towards.’ Then, he ordered them, when he was about to die, to do three things: ‘Expel the idolaters from the Arabian Peninsula and show respect to all foreign delegates by giving them gifts as I used to do.’ And I forgot the third.”

Source: al-Bukhari al-Ju'fi, al-Jami al-Sahih al-Mukhtaṣar (Beirut: Dar Ibn Kathir; 3rd edition, 1407 H) [annotator: Dr. Mustafa Dib al-Bagha], vol. 3, p. 1111, # 2888.

Bros when next you want to quote an hadith, quotethe full hadith, and not do special editing to it.

Narrated by Ibn 'Abbas:

When the time of the death of the Prophet approached while there were some men in the house, and among them was 'Umar Ibn al-Khattab, the Prophet said: "Come near let me write for you a writing after which you will never go astray." 'Umar said: "The Prophet is seriously ill, and you have the Qur'an, so Allah's Book is sufficient for us." The people in the house differed and disputed. Some of them said, "Come near so that Allah's Apostle may write for you a writing after which you will not go astray," while the others said what 'Umar said. When they made much noise and quarreled greatly in front of the Prophet, he said to them, "Go away and leave me." Ibn 'Abbas used to say, "It was a great disaster that their quarrel and noise prevented Allah's Apostle from writing a statement for them.
Sahih al Bukhari Arabic-English Volume 9 hadith number 468 and Volume 7 hadith 573

You narrate the hadith as if Umar (ra) was responding to the Prophet (SAW), when the truth was that he was responding to those who were eager for the Prophet (SAW) to write. Umar (ra) was only bothered about the health of his beloved Prophet (SAW), in fact when it was said that the Prophet (SAW) had died, Umar (ra) was in denial. but we know you would never quote these narrations, as I said earlier, your thread on pen and paper would be the appropriate place to paste a beautiful analysis and response.

From the narrations you have posted, all those who were present were guilty of raising their voices and arguing in front of the Prophet (SAW), and he told all of them to leave, not only Umar (ra) and the group that said the Qur'an is sufficient but everyone. So what is your issue?

I have asked you to bring a proof that says Umar (ra) was the one who said the word about the prophet (SAW), but you can't, you can only bring up assumptions and conjectures.

And was the Prophet (SAW) not seriously ill? we read in some narrations that he (SAW) fainted, so what is wrong with Umar (ra) statement?

Finally, the Prophet (SAW) did not die that day, so we need to ask what was his feeling about his companions at the final moment?

Narrated Az-Zuhn: Anas bin Malik Al-Ansari, told me, "Abu Bakr used to lead the people in prayer during the fatal illness of the Prophet till it was Monday. When the people aligned (in rows) for the prayer the Prophet lifted the curtain of his house and started looking at us and was standing at that time. His face was (glittering) like a page of the Qur'an and he smiled cheerfully. We were about to be put to trial for the pleasure of seeing the Prophet, Abu Bakr retreated to join the row as he thought that the Prophet would lead the prayer. The Prophet beckoned us to complete the prayer and he let the curtain fall. On the same day he died." (sahih bukhari).

AlBaqir:
Definition of the Key word used
key words – hajara (هجر) and ahajara (اهجر) [and their nominal form is al-hujr (الهجر) - in the aḥadīth are often mistranslated or misinterpreted as simply “to become unconscious” or “to faint”.

However, one of the earliest classical Sunni grand Imams – Sufyan b. ‘Uyaynah (d. 198 H) – had longed exposed the meaning of the word used by the Sahaba. He was explicit that the Sahabah literally intended that the Prophet of Allah was “raving mad”, that the words they used meant exactly that.

This is equally confirmed by other classical ‘Ulama of the Ahl al-Sunnah.

1. Imam al-Shami (d. 942 H), for instance, states:

Al-Hujr: is raving madness and irrational talk, and it is (also) used to refer to obscene, immoral talk.

Source: Subul al-Huda al-Rashad fi Sirah Khayr al-‘Ibad (Beirut: Dar al-Kutub al-‘Ilmiyyah; 1st edition, 1414 H) [annotators: ‘Adil Aḥmad ‘Abd al-Mawjud and ‘Ali Muḥammad Ma'ud], vol. 11,p.105

2. The ace Sunni linguist, Ibn Manzur (d. 711 H), says as well: Al-Hujr: is raving madness.

Source: Lisan al-‘Arab (Beirut: Dar Sadir; 1st edition), vol. 5, p. 250

3. Imam Ibn Salam (d. 224), an ancient, leading Sunni hadith expert, has this submission too:

As for "al-hujr" in statements, it is raving madness.

Source: Abu ‘Ubayd al-Qasim b. Salām al-Harwī, Gharīb al-Ḥadīth (Haydarabad: Majlis Dāirah al-Ma’ārif al-‘Uthmāniyyah; 1st edition, 1384 H), vol. 2, p. 64

4. Al-Hafiz Ibn Ḥajar al-‘Asqalani (d. 852 H) does not say anything different either: Al-Hujr is raving madness

Source: Fatḥ al-Bari Sharḥ Sahih al-Bukhari (Beirut: Dar al-Ma’rifah li al-Taba'ah wa al-Nashr; 2nd edition), vol. 8, p. 101

Second Definition of the same word
There is a second definition for the word which must be taken into account.

* Imam Ibn Salam comes in again after agreed that the word (al-Hujr) means "raving madness":

Al-Kisai – and part of it is from al-Asma'i and others: al-hujr is to say obscene things and to use obscene language. It is said from it: the man ahajara, yahjur, ihjaran.

Source: Abu ‘Ubayd al-Qasim b. Salam al-Harwi, Gharib al-Hadith (Haydarabad: Majlis Dairah al-Ma'arifah al-‘Uthmaniyyah; 1st edition, 1384 H), vol. 2, p. 63}

* Qadi ‘Iyad (d. 544 H), for instance, has given both meanings to ahajara (اهجر) – one of the words used by the Ṣaḥābah to qualify the Rasūl. He even specifically refers to the ḥadīth itself:

It is said “the man ahajara” when he says obscene things. His statement “the Messenger of Allāh, peace be upon him, ahajara” – which is the correct form with fatḥah of the al-hā (i.e. pronounced as ahajara) - means raving madness; and al-hujr means raving madness.

Source: {Al-Qadi Abu al-Faḍl ‘Iyad b. Musa b. ‘Iyad al-Yahsubi al-Sibt al-Maliki, Mashariq al-Anwar ‘ala Sihah al-Athar (al-Maktabah al-‘Atīqah and Dar al-Turath), vol. 2, p. 529}.

Another sorry attempt to castigate the companions of the Prophet (SAW), giving the definitons of the word, does not mean that was what those who said it meant, and quoting dictionaries and scholars who just gave direct meaning to the word does not mean they agree that was what those who said it meant. Subhanallah! anyways here is a better analysis, one devoid of hate and prejudice:

What Was Meant By “Delirious”?

It is the phrase “he is delirious” that the Shia propagandist will use against the Ahlus Sunnah. Before we decide who said those words, let us be clear what was meant by the words “is he delirious?” Some of the Shia get overly emotional over the word “delirious”; in actuality, the meaning of the word “delirium” is simply “disturbance of consciousness”. In the United States, psychiatrists rely on the DSM-IV-TR classification scheme; we find that–according to DSM-IV-TR criteria–“disturbance of consciousness” is the core feature of delirium. Delirium can–and oftentimes is–associated with other symptoms such as hallucinations; however, this is not always the case and in fact frequently is not the case. These other symptoms such as hallucinations are merely associations, but they are not the core feature of delirium.

In fact, delirium does not have a psychiatric etiology, but rather it is classified as an “organic” or “physiological” condition. One of the commonest causes of such a disturbance of consciousness is a high grade fever. Patients who suffer from high grade fevers will oftentimes have clouding of consciousness, and this is what is known as delirium, irrespective of any other associations that may or may not be present. In other words, the one who is in a state of delirium is not considered a lunatic or a psychiatric nut, but rather a patient suffering from a severe medical condition of a biological–not psychiatric–origin.

If we look at the definition of the word used in the Hadith, we find:
Quote
hajara; yahjuru; hajran; hijranan; ahjara :- To desert, forsake, leave, renounce, abandon
tahajara; ihtajara :- To depart from one another, separate, or forsake one another; become alienated
(source: Wortabet’s Arabic - English Dictionary)

In the context of the Hadith, the word was used in the sense of someone who leaves or departs from his original state of mind; more specifically, it referred to a person who is separating from the people and this world, as in losing consciousness. In other words, the man who asked “is the Prophet delirious” did not mean that the Prophet was talking nonsense or that he had gone crazy. Instead, the man was simply asking if the Prophet was conscious or not, and we know from Shaykh Mufid’s description of the event that the Prophet was unconscious.

The words “is he delirious” appear in Sahih Bukhari, as follows:
Quote
…The ailment of Allah’s Apostle became worse (on Thursday) and he said, “Fetch me something so that I may write to you something after which you will never go astray.” The people (present there) differed in this matter, and it was not right to differ before a prophet. Some said, “What is wrong with him? (Do you think) he is delirious (seriously ill)? Ask him (to understand his state).”
(Sahih Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 59, Number 716)

In the above narration, someone asked “is he delirious?” By this, he meant “is he in a state of altered consciousness?” In Sahih Muslim, we read:
Quote
The illness of Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) took a serious turn (on Thursday), and he said: “Come to me, so that I should write for you a document that you may not go astray after me.” They (the Companions around him) disputed, and it is not right to dispute in the presence of the Apostle. They said: “How is (Allah’s Apostle)? Has he lost his consciousness? Try to learn from him (this point).”
(Sahih Muslim, Book 013, Number 4014)

And once again:
Quote
…He (the narrator) said that Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: “Bring me a shoulder blade and ink-pot (or tablet and ink pot), so that I write for you a document (by following which) you would never go astray.” They said: “Allah’s Messenger (may peace upon him) is in the state of unconsciousness.”
(Sahih Muslim, Book 013, Number 4015)

The man who asked this question was simply wondering if the Prophet was conscious or not. He did not mean to imply any disrespect. And that is why the man said “ask him (to understand his state of consciousness)” and “try to learn from him (this point)”. This is a clear proof that the man did not mean that the Prophet was talking nonsense, because if that were the case, then there would be no point in asking the Prophet that. Medical practitioners and psychiatrists say that those who suffer from psychosis (i.e. a break from reality, hallucinations, etc.) do not have “insight” into their illness: they themselves will not admit that they are “crazy”. This is common sense: one does not ask a person who is talking nonsense if they are talking nonsense.

The man said “ask him” and “try to learn from him” which means that he wished for them to see if the Prophet was conscious. In the medical world, doctors routinely use the “Glasgow Coma Scale” (GCS exam) in order to test for the patient’s level of consciousness. The GCS exam is done by asking the patient various questions to see if he responds, and his responses confirm his level of consciousness. In plain English that means that to check if a man is conscious or not, the best thing to do is to ask him if he is OK. In fact, this is the first step of CPR: in order to check if the patient is conscious or not, the first thing that is done is that the person is asked “are you OK?” If he responds, all is well; if not, CPR maneuvers are begun.

To conclude the matter, the Shia should not get overly emotional over the word “delirious”, because all that was meant by this is “consciousness” or lack thereof. And it was Shaykh Mufid himself who said that the Prophet was unconscious during this time. He wrote in his book (emphasis is ours):
Quote
He (the Prophet) fainted from the fatigue which had come upon him and the sorrow which possessed him. He remained unconscious for a short time…The Apostle of Allah recovered consciousness and looked at them. Then he said: “Bring me ink and parchment so that I may write for you, after which you will never go astray.”

Again he fainted and one of those present rose to look for ink and parchment.

“Go back,” Umar ordered him. “He is delirious.”

The man went back. Those present regretted the dilatoriness (they had shown) in bringing ink and parchment and rebuked each other. They used to say: “We belong to God and to Him we will return, but we have become anxious about disobedience to the Apostle of Allah, may Allah bless him and his family.”

When he (the Prophet), peace be on him, recovered consciousness…

(Kitab Al-Irshad, by Shaykh Mufid, p.130)

This narration found in one of the Shia’s most reliable books is the end of the debate altogether. Based on this narration above, we find that the order of events was:

1) The Prophet asked for a pen and paper.
2) Next, the Prophet fainted.
3) After that, a man got up to get the pen and paper.
4) Umar ordered him not to. (This Shia book attributes the word “delirious” to Umar but we know this part to be incorrect, as it was someone else who said that.)
5) The statement “he is delirious” is said.
6) The people bickered.
7) Only then did the Prophet recover consciousness.

From this account it becomes clear that the words “is he delirious” were said when the Prophet was unconscious (i.e. before he recovered consciousness)! Does an unconscious person talk? Surely not! This is the coup de grâce to the Shia argument, and so whenever a Shia creates a ruckus about the words “is he delirious”, then we direct him here. If the words “is he delirious” were said while the Prophet was unconscious, then there is no issue of “nonsense talk” as an unconscious person cannot talk let alone talk nonsense. On the other hand, understanding the word “delirium” to be be a disorder in consciousness makes total sense; a man who is slipping into unconsciousness is said to be “departing” (hajara) from the people and this world.

To conclude the matter, the man who asked the question “is he delirious” meant to ask about the Prophet’s level of consciousness, and nothing more. He did not say it in a sarcastic or demeaning tone, but rather he was asking a sincere question. This man cannot be blamed for that any more than the Shia’s own Shaykh Mufid can be, for both of them were indicating that the Prophet had slipped into a state of unconsciousness.

^Mr Sino, First, after going through your responses, I believe my job is done except you (or any other person) have any other useful comment. Our submissions are before the readers. However, the only new introduction to this thread is the complete hadith of Sahih Muslim between Imam Ali (alaihim Salam), Hazrat Abbas and Umar b. al-Khattab.

Following are the MAIN points of the hadith, and my responses:

# Point 1: Hazrat Abbas and Imam Ali went to meet the Khalifah Umar b. al-Khattab to settle A DISPUTE between them

My response: Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal records:

* Abd Allah (b. Ahmad b. Hanbal) - my father (Ahmad b. Hanbal) - Yahya b. Sa'id - Sufyan - Habib b. Abi Thabit - Sa'id b. Jubayr - Ibn 'Abbas, may Allah be pleased with them both:

'Umar said: "Ali is the best JUDGE among us, and Ubayy is the best reciter among us."

Sheik al-Arnaut comments: Its chain is Sahih upon the standard of the two Shaykhs.
Ref: {Musnad (Cairo: Muasassat Qurtubah) [annotator: Shuaib al-Arnaut], vol. 5, p. 113, #21123.

Imam Ahmad further documents:

* Abd Allah (b. Ahmad b. Hanbal) - my father (Ahmad b. Hanbal) - Suwayd b. Sa'id - Ali b. Mashar - al'Amash - Habib b. Abi Thabit - Sa'id b. Jubayr - Ibn 'Abbas:

'Umar, may Allah be pleased with him, delivered a sermon on the pulpit of the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, and said: "Ali, may Allah be pleased with him, is the best judge among us, and Ubayy, may Allah be pleased with him, is the best reciter."

Sheik al-Arnaut has a simple verdict: Sahih. Ref: {^ibid, vol. 5, p. 113, #21124}.

It is obvious why Imam Ali (alaihim Salam) is the best judge among ALL Sahabah because he has the most knowledge of the Quran and Prophetic Sunnah [I have once gave you enough evidence on this on a thread "Where is Allah?"].

The respect, loyalty and support that Hazrat Abbas had for Imam Ali is well known and recorded in Islamic history. Even his son (Abdullah) continued in that line. However, with the hadith above, why should Abbas and Ali go to Umar to settle their dispute? And why should Umar himself feel comfortable to judge where the BEST JUDGE is present? There are countless athar where Umar will give wrong fatwas only for Ali to come to the rescue and give the right judgment. So, obviously, both Hazrat Abbas and Imam Ali had other plans (which was revealed in the same hadith as you shall observe soon).

# Point 2: Hazrat Abbas accused Imam Ali of being "sinful, treacherous, dishonest liar"

My Response: Why would Hazrat Abbas accused Imam Ali of being sinful, treacherous and dishonest liar when Allah had cleansed him ABSOLUTELY?

Imam Tirmidhi (d. 279H) records:

Umar ibn Abi Salamah, the dependent of the Prophet, peace be upon him:

When this verse: {"Allah intends but only to keep impurity away all from you, O Ahl al-Bayt, and to purify you absolutely} was revealed upon the Prophet, peace be upon him, in the house of Umm Salamah, he called Fatima, Hassan, Hussein and spread a cloak over them while 'Ali was behind him. Then, he covered them with a cloak. Then he said, "O Allah! These are my Ahl al-Bayt. So keep impurity away from them and purify them absolutely."
Umm Salamah said, "Am I with them, O Prophet of Allah? He replied, "You are upon your place and you are upon a good place."

Allamah al-Albani comments: Sahih
Ref: {al-Jami al-Sahih Sunan al-Tirmidhi, [annotator: Nasir din al-Albani], vol.5, p.351,#3205}. This hadith is Mutawattir so there is no story on it.

So why would ANYBODY EXCEPT MUNAFIQ ever believed and accused Ali? Just like I said earlier, both Hazrat Abbas (radi'Allahu anhum) and Imam Ali (alaihim Salam) had a game plan. Coming to that in sha Allah.

# Point 3: According to the report of that hadith, instead for Umar to listen to the dispute and "judge", he switched to unrelated matters about the fact that Prophets of God don't leave heirs. Everything they left used to go into charity

It was in this context that Umar READ THE GAME PLAN and voiced out using the exact wording ["sinful, treacherous, dishonest liar"] of Hazrat Abbas saying:

"When the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, died, Abu Bakr said: “I am the wali of the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him.”.... So both of you (Ali and Abbas) thought him (i.e. Abu Bakr) to be a liar, sinful, A TRAITOR and dishonest. And Allāh knows that he was really truthful, pious, rightly-guided and a follower of the truth. Abu Bakr died and I became the wali of the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, and the wali of Abu Bakr. So both of you thought me to be a liar, sinful, A TRAITOR and dishonest."

MAY ALLAH BLESS THE BANU HASHIM (PROPHET'S IMMEDIATE FAMILY) FOR THEIR WISDOM
What Hazrat Abbas and Imam Ali did is an example of what Allah revealed in the Quran about Nabi Dawud (the Judge) and two disputants (two angels).

Surah Sad verse 21 - 25 reads:

"And has there come to you the story of the litigants, when they made an entry into the private chamber by ascending over the walls?

When they entered in upon Dawood and he was frightened at them, they said: Fear not; two litigants, of whom one has acted wrongfully towards the other, therefore decide between us with justice, and do not act unjustly, and guide us to the right way.

Surely this is my brother; he has ninety-nine ewes and I have a single ewe; but he said: Make it over to me, and he has prevailed against me in discourse.

He said: Surely he has been unjust to you in demanding your ewe (to add) to his own ewes; and most surely most of the partners act wrongfully towards one another, save those who believe and do good, and very few are they; and Dawood was sure that We had tried him, so he sought the protection of his Lord and he fell down bowing and turned time after time (to Him).

Therefore We rectified for him this, and most surely he had a nearness to Us and an excellent resort.

O Dawood! surely We have made you a ruler in the land; so judge between men with justice and do not follow desire, lest it should lead you astray from the path of Allah; (as for) those who go astray from the path of Allah, they shall surely have a severe punishment because they forgot the day of reckoning."

Second, OTHER ISSUES IN THE HADITH THAT NEED TO BE EXPOSED

# Issue of Fadak vis-a-vis Abu Bakar vs Bibi Fatima (alayha Salam)! This deserve a thread, and in sha Allah soonest something will come up.

# Umar's claim: "don’t you know that the Messenger of Allah said: 'We (prophets) do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity?’" They said: “Yes.”

Response: Quran absolved the holy Prophet:

1. "...and Sulayman was the Warith of Dawud..."[Quran al-furqan]

Sulayman (alaihim Salam) did not only inherited the Prophethood and Knowledge of his father (i.e Dawud) but also inherited his GRAND KINGDOM.

2. Prophet Zakariyah prayed to Allah:

"So give me from Yourself a wali, who shall inherit me and inherit the family of Ya'qub. And make him, my Lord, one with whom You are well-pleased. (Allah said): 'O Zakariyah! Verily, We give you the glad tidings of a son, his name will be Yahya." [surah Maryam: 5-7]

3. Imam Ibn 'Asim (d. 287H) records:

Husayn b. Ali and Ahmad b. Uthman - Muhammad b. Khalid b. Athmah - Musa b. Ya'qub - al-Muhajir b. Mismar - Aishah bint Sa'd - her father:

I heard the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, saying on the day of al-Juhfah while holding the hand of Ali, and he delivered a sermon, and thanked Allah and praised Him, and then said: "O Mankind! I AM YOUR WALI'. They replied, "You have said the truth, O Messenger of Allah." Then he held the hand of Ali, may Allah be pleased with him, and raised it up, and said, "THIS (ALI) IS MY WALI, AND THE ONE TO DISCHARGE ON MY BEHALF"

Allamah al -Albani says: It is Sahih because it has shawahid.

Ref: {Kitab al-Sunnah (al-Maktab al-Islami; 1st edition, 1410 H)[annotator: Muhammad Nasir al-Din al-Albani], vol.2, p.565,#1189}.

# Unfortunately, what do we have after the demise of the Prophet? Abu Bakr and Umar claimed what never belonged to them. Imam Muslim records:

"When the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, died, Abu Bakr said: "I am the wali of the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him."..... Abu Bakr (also) died and I became the wali of the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, and the wali of Abu Bakr. So both of you thought me to be a liar, sinful, A TRAITOR and dishonest."

Watch out Sino these arguments are going to be used when the proposed thread on Fadak is opened, in sha Allah.

# Fulfilment of Prophecy

Al-Hafiz Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani (d. 852 H) documents:

1. Al'Fadl, Abu Na'im - Fitr b. Khalifah - Habib b. Abi Thabit - Tha'labah b. Yazid:

I heard 'Ali, may Allah be pleased with him, saying: "I swear by Allah, verily, the Ummi Prophet, peace be upon him, told me: "They (the Ummah) will soon betray you after me."

Ref: al-Matalib al-'Aliyah bi Zawaid al-Masanid al-Thamaniyyah (Riyadh: Dar al-'Asimah; 1st edition, 1420 H) [annotator: Abd Allah b. Zafir b. Abd Allah al-Shahr], vol. 16, p.64, #3919

2. Ibn Hajar again documents:

Al-Harith - Abd al-Rahman b. Ziyad, free slave of Banu Hashim - Hushaym - Ismail b. Salim - Abu Idris al-Awdi - Ali:

The Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, said: "Verily, this Ummah will soon betray you after me."
Ref: ^ibid, vol. 16, p.64, #3920.

3. Imam al-Hakim (d. 403 H) also records:

Abu Hafs 'Umar b. Ahmad al-Jamhi - Ali b. Abd al-Aziz - Amr b. Awn - Hushaym - Ismail b. Salim - Abu Idris al-Awdi - Ali, may Allah be pleased with him:

"Verily, part of what the Prophet, peace be upon him, told me is that the Ummah would soon betray me after him."

Imam al-Hakim declares: This hadith has a Sahih chain.

And Imam al-Dhahabi (d. 748 H) concurs: Sahih.

Ref: Al-Mustadrak ala al-Sahihayn (Beirut: Dar al-Kutub al-Illmiyyah; 1st edition, 1411H)[annotator: Mustafa Abd al-Qadr 'Ata], vol.3, p.150, #4676.

NB: Mr Sino, pls contest the authenticity of any of these ahadith.

# Lastly, the writer of the comments you copied-pasted [under this hadith of Muslim, about Hazrat Abbas, Imam Ali and Umar] made an amateurish claim that Ali did not challenged and opposed the Khilafah os Abu Bakr. I refer you to Umar's confession in {Sahih al-Bukhari, vol. 6, p. 2503, #6442}.

Imam Ali did not only opposed the Khilafah of Abu Bakr but also withheld his allegiance for Abu Bakr until after six (6) months, ONLY when people were expressing animosity towards him ('Ali) -{Sahih bukhari Volume 5, Book 59, Number 546}.

sino:

Bros when next you want to quote an hadith, quote the full hadith, and not do special editing to it

Narrated by Ibn 'Abbas:

When the time of the death of the Prophet approached while there were some men in the house, and among them was 'Umar Ibn al-Khattab, the Prophet said: "Come near let me write for you a writing after which you will never go astray." 'Umar said: "The Prophet is seriously ill, and you have the Qur'an, so Allah's Book is sufficient for us". The people in the house differed and disputed. Some of them said, "Come near so that Allah's Apostle may write for you a writing after which you will not go astray," while the others said what 'Umar said. When they made much noise and quarreled greatly in front of the Prophet, he said to them, "Go away and leave me." Ibn 'Abbas used to say, "It was a great disaster that their quarrel and noise prevented Allah's Apostle from writing a statement for them.
Sahih al Bukhari Arabic-English Volume 9 hadith number 468 and Volume 7 hadith 573

@underlined, I busted into Chinese laughter. Sino abeg go and sleep if you know sabi what to talk again

@bold, such is the translation of Umar's advocators. To calm down the heat upon their dear Khalifah. However, you need to go and see your Arabic teacher to give you a proper English translation. Obviously you are not capable. On the other hand, you can come down to Ilorin. We have some of the best Arabic schools here. A pix of both Arabic and English of the hadith is attached. Kindly find an appropriate teacher and show him.

Lastly, Sino you are a case whenever you copy-past. You are brilliant than people you are copying their sick comments. One of the worstestest thing you've done (since you copied) is discarding the best of the best Sunni dictionaries which I have quoted in the meaning of "Hajarah, al-hujr etc". Sino, you go give me one kind "Arabic-English translation"?! That's poor! Very poor. Then if you observe keenly, Imam Qadi Iyad used this very hadith of Thursday to explain the meaning of "Hajarah, al-Hujr" to mean RAVING MADNESS/TALKING NONSENSE.

What a poor attempt, Sino. Please try again later.

AlBaqir:


@underlined, I busted into Chinese laughter. Sino abeg go and sleep if you know sabi what to talk again

@bold, such is the translation of Umar's advocators. To calm down the heat upon their dear Khalifah. However, you need to go and see your Arabic teacher to give you a proper English translation. Obviously you are not capable. On the other hand, you can come down to Ilorin. We have some of the best Arabic schools here. A pix of both Arabic and English of the hadith is attached. Kindly find an appropriate teacher and show him.

Lastly, Sino you are a case whenever you copy-past. You are brilliant than people you are copying their sick comments. One of the worstestest thing you've done (since you copied) is discarding the best of the best Sunni dictionaries which I have quoted in the meaning of "Hajarah, al-hujr etc". Sino, you go give me one kind "Arabic-English translation"?! That's poor! Very poor. Then if you observe keenly, Imam Qadi Iyad used this very hadith of Thursday to explain the meaning of "Hajarah, al-Hujr" to mean RAVING MADNESS/TALKING NONSENSE.

What a poor attempt, Sino. Please try again later.

na'am he(umar) said the prophet of Allah is delirious,
One begins to wonder why he never said something similar while abu bakr was on his death bed and wanted to appoint his successor

Now the apologetics will claim that abubakr LOVED the religion of Allah so much that he appointed a successor so that people wouldn't go astray after his death

This will also beg the question who should love the religion of Allah more the prophet or abubakr..why is it that abubakr knew well to prevent the religion of Allah from descending into the abyss by appointing a successor and the Prophet(s) didn't know to do the same

I smell conspiracy jare

BETATRON:
na'am he(umar) said the prophet of Allah is delirious,
One begins to wonder why he never said something similar while abu bakr was on his death bed and wanted to appoint his successor

Now the apologetics will claim that abubakr LOVED the religion of Allah so much that he appointed a successor so that people wouldn't go astray after his death

This will also beg the question who should love the religion of Allah more the prophet or abubakr..why is it that abubakr knew well to prevent the religion of Allah from descending into the abyss by appointing a successor and the Prophet(s) didn't know to do the same

I smell conspiracy jare

May Allah not kill your senses brother. In fact according to Sunni traditions, Abu Bakar fainted while he was about to write his successor. Uthman and whoever was there with him waited until he came back alive. They made sure he read and confirmed his will. But these apologetics are okay that Prophet was denied to write his will. That alone is a case against them before Allah. Who gave them the audacity to talk or think otherwise when the Prophet of Allah ordered something? They did not only talk but accused him of RAVING MADNESS. And there leader said Quran is enough for them as if Prophet is not the custodian and interpreter of that Quran. Its a sick world, wallahi. This subject nearly made me crazy when I ran into it about 21years ago as a Sunni in our Sahih texts. And you can see someone is giving me a sick translation to cool the heat.

AlBaqir:


May Allah not kill your senses brother. In fact according to Sunni traditions, Abu Bakar fainted while he was about to write his successor. Uthman and whoever was there with him waited until he came back alive. They made sure he read and confirmed his will. But these apologetics are okay that Prophet was denied to write his will. That alone is a case against them before Allah. Who gave them the audacity to talk or think otherwise when the Prophet of Allah ordered something? They did not only talk but accused him of RAVING MADNESS. And there leader said Quran is enough for them as if Prophet is not the custodian and interpreter of that Quran. Its a sick world, wallahi. This subject nearly made me crazy when I ran into it about 21years ago as a Sunni in our Sahih texts. And you can see someone is giving me a sick translation to cool the heat.

the problem they have is that all this points (in their own books) is coming from a shi'I..like my friend picked up one of my shia books "OUR PHIlOSOPHY-by ayatullah muhammad baqir as-sadr" reading it little he pleaded to borrow it "not knowing that it is a shia book yet" when I told him that he should look at the author of the book,he just dropped it and signed.

I dear not say that my father is sick if he wants to say something on his death bed,,I'm sure no body would..but this men said the prophet of Allah is delirious and some people have the guts to justify this statement (which is the peak of disrespect to the prophet of Allah) by claiming that he only professed that the prophet of Allah IS SIcK

I wonder where people keep their ability to reason,and understand when dealing with these companions

This is really unfortunate. I was reading to learn but I see the goal. I don't think it is appropriate for a muslim to do this to the companions of the Prophet, pbuh.
So sad!

ayinba1:
This is really unfortunate. I was reading to learn but I see the goal. I don't think it is appropriate for a muslim to do this to the companions of the Prophet, pbuh.
So sad!

Meaning that you think it is very appropriate for 'those companions' to accused their Prophet of Raving madness while they disobeyed his harmless order?! And you think it is more appropriate for us to praise those companions while we turn deaf hears to the Quran that says among the Prophet's companions there were chronic Munafiq. Hmmmm

ayinba1:
This is really unfortunate. I was reading to learn but I see the goal. I don't think it is appropriate for a muslim to do this to the companions of the Prophet, pbuh.
So sad!

My sister, its just beyond me to understand how the shias think, I believe it is based on pure hatred and nothing more, they are well indoctrinated to think and behave like this, everyone of them I have read their comments online, behave the same way, they do not follow the Qur’an, the Prophet (SAW) or the ahl-l-bayt they keep shouting. I ask AlBaqir to show me authentic narrations that support what He and his masters are propagating, up till now, none, just conjectures, assumptions and suspicions. He stylishly avoided the below quotes from the Qur’an and hadith of the Prophet (SAW). Their game is deception, quote volumes upon volumes which upon analysis, exposes their deceit.

Here is what Islam teaches, but AlBaqir and his cohorts do not care about these…

Allah (SWT) says in the Qur’an
“O ye who believe! Avoid suspicion as much (as possible): for suspicion in some cases is a sin: and spy not on each other nor speak ill of each other behind their backs. Would any of you like to eat the flesh of his dead brother? Nay ye would abhor it...but fear Allah: for Allah is Oft-Returning Most Merciful.” (Q 49:12)

The Prophet (SAW) said:
“Allah, Allah! Fear Him with regard to my Sahabah! Do not make them targets after me! Whoever loves them loves them with his love for me; and whoever hates them hates them with his hatred for me. Whoever bears enmity for them, bears enmity for me; and whoever bears enmity for me, bears enmity for Allah. Whoever bears enmity for Allah is about to perish!” (Narrated from Abdallah ibn Mughaffal by Al-Tirmidhi by Ahmad with three good chains in his Musnad, al-Bukhari in his Tarikh, al-Bayhaqi in Shu`ab al-Iman, and others. Al-Suyuti declared it hasan in his Jami` al-Saghir #1442)

Narrated AbuBarzah al-Aslami: The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: O community of people, who believed by their tongue, and belief did not enter their hearts, do not back-bite Muslims, and do not search for their faults, for if anyone searches for their faults, Allah will search for his fault, and if Allah searches for the fault of anyone, He disgraces him in his house. - [/b]Sunan of Abu Dawood, Number 2283

Narrated Abu Huraira:[b] Allah's Apostle said, "Beware of suspicion, for it is the worst of false tales and don't look for the other's faults and don't spy and don't hate each other, and don't desert (cut your relations with) one another. O Allah's slaves, be brothers!" - Sahih Al Bukhari, Vol. 8 Number 717

Narrated Aisha: The Prophet (peace be upon him) said, "I do not like to speak of anyone's faults even if I should receive such and such." Tirmidhi transmitted it, calling it sahih. - Al Tirmidhi Hadith Number 1256

Narrated Abdullah ibn Umar: Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) mounted the pulpit and called in a loud voice, "You who have accepted Islam with your tongues but whose hearts have not been reached by faith, do not annoy the Muslims, or revile them, or seek out their faults; for he who seeks out the faults of his brother Muslim will have his faults sought out by Allah and he whose faults are sought out by Allah will be exposed by Him, even though he should be in the interior of his house." - Al Tirmidhi Hadith Number 1308

These two narrations below are from shia sources, it seems they are at liberty to accept and deny as they feel, their goal is just to win arguments and not what Islam preaches…

In his speech to Mufaddhal ibn `Umar, Imam Ja`far ibn Muhammad as-Sadiq (peace be upon him) said:
“A person who talks about a believer’s conduct hoping that through this act, he is able to lower the other person’s value and worth in the eyes of others will be taken out of the guardianship of Allah and will be placed in the guardianship of the Shaitan.” [/b]Al-Mahajjat al-Baydha, Volume 5, Page 155.

Ja’far Ibn Muhammad Al-Sadiq said:
[b]“If something that you dislike reaches you about your brother then search for one excuse for him up to seventy excuses. If it hits the mark, (then good). If not, then say, ‘Perhaps he has an excuse that I am not aware of.‘ ” [Al-Jaami' Li Shu'ab Al-Eemaan, 14/442]

The case of Umar (ra) and the companions on the issue of pen and paper is so overblown that you would think the Prophet (SAW) coursed his companions on his deathbed, but what we read about the final moment of the messenger (SAW) is quite different:

Narrated Az-Zuhn: Anas bin Malik Al-Ansari, told me, "Abu Bakr used to lead the people in prayer during the fatal illness of the Prophet till it was Monday. When the people aligned (in rows) for the prayer the Prophet lifted the curtain of his house and started looking at us and was standing at that time. His face was (glittering) like a page of the Qur'an and he smiled cheerfully. We were about to be put to trial for the pleasure of seeing the Prophet, Abu Bakr retreated to join the row as he thought that the Prophet would lead the prayer. The Prophet beckoned us to complete the prayer and he let the curtain fall. On the same day he died." (sahih bukhari).

Sometimes I wonder, how can these nobodies cry more than the bereaved? How can you carry a matter on your head this much more than those who were concerned? This just shows that many of them are bunch of hypocrites, with no true love for the ahl-l-bayt they claim to follow.

Lets read the views of the Ahl-Bayt on Umar (ra), were they like AlBaqir and the shias of today? Read and see:

Abu Sariha said that I heard Ali saying on the pulpit “Indeed Abu Bakr was very kind hearted person and indeed Umar was a well wisher of God’s religion, hence Allah did good to him.(tabqat ibn saad, vol 3, page 121)

Ubaidullah bin Mussa narrates from Abu Aqeel that a man asked Ali about Abu Bakr and Umar, he said Indeed they were Imams of guidance, and righteous ones and guiders.(tabqat ibn saad, vol3, page 139)

Abdullah narrates that I heard Ali saying : Every Prophet is given 7 Najeeb from his Ummah, and Prophet (s) was given 14 Najeeb in his Ummah, and amongst them are Abu Bakr and Umar.(musnad ahmed, vol 1, page 132)

Abdullah ibn Ahmad narrated in his Sunnan(#1303):

From Salim ibn Abu Hafs: “I asked Abu Jafar and Jafar about Abu Bakr and Umar (may Allah be pleased with them). And they say: “O Salim, befriend to them, and dissolve from their enemies, indeed they were imams of guidance” And Jafar said to me: “O Salim, Abu Bakr is my grandfather, does man can abuse his grandfather? And may the intercession of Mohammad not reach me on the day of judgement, if I wouldn’t befriend with them, and wouldn’t dissolve from their enemies”


In his “Siyar” at page 259 Dhahabi narrated:

From AbdulJabar ibn Al-Abbas al-Hamadani: ”Jafar as-Sadiq came to them when they were leaving Madinah and told them: You are inshallah from amongst the best of people from your country (or from your Egypt) So report to them from me: He who claims that I’m an infallible imam who must be obeyed, I disassociate myself from him and he who claims that I disassociate myself from Abu Bakr and Umar, I disassociate myself from him.”


Abdullah ibn Abbas(ra) was asked: what have you got to say about umar: he answered: May Allah have mercy on Abu hafs(umar). I swear that he was an ally of islam, a shelter for the orphans, a residence for faith, an example of benevolence, a resort for the weak, a defender of the truth, a source of help for people. Armed with patience and seeking Allah’s reward, he strove till islam was victorious , provinces conquered, and the name of Allah(swt) mentioned on hills and landscapes. He glorified Allah in times of plenty and hardships, and was grateful to him all the time. Whoever hates him shall be doomed till Judgment day.[( quoted from Ar riyad An Nadirah) (Biographies of the rightly guided caliphs page 267)]

We read in al-Kafi (Shia hadith book) vol.7 pg.214:

Zurarah said: I heard abu Ja’far (as) say: ‘Ubeidullah bin ‘Umar was to be punished for drinking wine, so ‘Umar ordered that he be beaten as punishment but no one stepped up to do this task, then ‘Ali (as) stood up and hit him with a solid object forty times.
[Grading: Majlisi “Muwathathaq like Sahih.” al-Miraat 23/330].

Comment: The supposedly evil oppressor according to the Shias, punishes his own son and allows his supposed “enemy” to beat him up!

How Ahlebayt deal with those who wanted degrade the status of Umar (ra)

Abdullah ibn Ahmad ibn Hanbal narrated in his Sunnan (№1302, p 557)
Narrated to me my father, he said: narrated to me Asbat from Amr ibn Qays, which said: I heard Jafar ibn Muhammad saying: Allah disassociate himself from those who disassociate themselves from Abu Bakr and Umar.[Editor of book, Muhammad al-Qahtani noticed that chain is authentic. Dhahabi in “Siyar alamun nubala” (6/260) said: “This saying of Jafar is mutawater”.]

Ali [ra] said :
“I will lash anyone who prefers me over Abu Bakr and Umar, the lashing of a slanderer.” [Lisan al-Mizan, Vol. III P. 290]

In the Khutbah of Ali on the Mimbar of Kufah he said: “it had reached me that some folks have preferred me over Abu Bakr and Umar (may Allah be pleased with them) Whoever says anything of the sort is a slanderer and his punishment will be that of a slanderer. The best of people after the Prophet PBUH was Abu Bakr and then Umar, Then things happened after them in which it is for Allah to pass his judgement.

Muhaddiths are al Hakami in Ma’arij al Qubool and al Bayhaqi in Al I’itiqad.
Hadith rank: Famous, was narrated from him through countless chains and has many Shawahid.

[b]“Then some people from Iraq entered upon him (Al-Imam Zayn Al-Abideen Ali bin Al-Hussain) and said some bad things about Abu Bakr, Umar, and Uthman. When they were done, Ali bin Al-Hussain told them, ‘Tell me, Are you the (Muhajirs, those who were expelled from their homes and their property, while seeking Grace from Allah and (His) Good Pleasure, and aiding Allah and His Messenger: such are indeed the sincere ones)? They answered, ‘No!’ Then Ali bin Al-Hussain said, ‘So, are you (those who, before them, had homes (in Medina) and had adopted the Faith, show their affection to such as came to them for refuge, and entertain no desire in their hearts for things given to the (latter), but give them preference over themselves, even though poverty was their (own lot))?’ They answered, ‘No!’ Ali bin Al-Hussain said, ‘Therefore, you disassociated yourselves from being one of these two groups and I bear witness that you are not the ones (who came after them say: “Our Lord! Forgive us, and our brethren who came before us into the Faith, and leave not, in our hearts, rancor (or sense of injury) against those who have believed. Our Lord! Thou art indeed Full of Kindness, Most Merciful.”) Get out of here, may Allah curse you!”[/b] Kashf Al-Ghummah, vol. 2, p. 291, under the subtitle of “Virtues of Al-Imam Zayn Al-Abideen”]

Zaid bin ali bin hussain(ra) who holds an honor of very pious and respectable personality among the shias was asked by his companions about Abubakar(ra) and umar(ra) he replied: I always speak good of them and I have never heard any members of the family of the prophet speak badly of them. They have never persecuted us nor did they maltreat any other citizen. Both of them strictly followed the quran and sunnah of the prophet(Saw). Hearing this they said you are not our companion , they separated from him. He said today they have left us , from today they will be called rafidah. (shia book, Nasikh al tawaarikh vol 2, page 590.(under the heading zain ul abedin’s saying)

Abdullah ibn Ahmad narrated in sunnan (#1303):

From Salim ibn Abu Hafs: “I asked Abu Jafar and Jafar about Abu Bakr and Umar (may Allah be pleased with them). And they say: “O Salim, befriend to them, and dissolve from their enemies, indeed they were imams of guidance” And Jafar said to me: “O Salim, Abu Bakr is my grandfather, does man can abuse his grandfather? And may the intercession of Mohammad not reach me on the day of judgement, if I wouldn’t befriend with them, and wouldn’t dissolve from their enemies”


Salim bin abi Hafsah asks the Imam about Abu Bakr and Umar: Ja’afar bin Muhammad told me: “O Salim, Abu Bakr is my grandfather, would a Man insult his own grandfather?” He (Ja’afar) also told me: ” May the intersession(Shafa’ah) of Muhammad peace be upon him never reach me on the day of judgement if I am not loyal to them and if I did not disassociate myself from their enemies”.

sources:
-Siyar A’alam al Nubalaa (6/258,259) by al Imam al Dhahabi, He said This Isnad is SAHIH in Tareekh al Islam (6/46).
-al-Sunnah by Abdullah (2/558) #1303.
-Usool I’itiqad ahlulsunnah by al Lalkaee (7/1301) #2465.

Virtues of Umar(ra) reported by Ahlebayt
Ali bin abi Talib (RA) said: I was with the Prophet PBUH then Abu Bakr and Umar may Allah be pleased with them arrived so he PBUH told me: O Ali these two are the Masters of the elderly of the people of paradise and its youth after the Prophets and the messengers.

sources: Musnad Ahmad 2/38.
Hadith Grading: SAHIH.
– Takhreej Mishkat al Masabih 5/409
– Al Jami’i al Sagheer 4758
– Al Fath al Rabbani 11/5650

Comment: According to another narrations al Hassan(ra) and Hussein(ra) are the Masters of the youth of Paradise. However, we know from the correct and famous narrations that all Men and Women will be youth once they enter paradise and some sources says 33 years old to be specific. If everyone in heaven is youth does this mean al Hassan ad Hussein (RAA) will be the Masters of Ali (RA) and Abu Bakr (RA) for example?. What can be meant by the Hadith is that they will be the Masters of the youth from their generation and age, meaning all the young Muslim youth back at that time Or it can also be explained in this way that they are leaders of all the Muslims who died in the young age.
Similarly, Abubakar(ra) and Umar(ra) will be the Masters of the elderly people from their generation and age, meaning all the elderly Muslims back at that time, Or it can also be explained in this way that they are leaders of all the Muslims who died in the Old age. It is possible that the people of paradise will be sorted out after their judgment is done and before they enter the paradise the young and old men will be divided with their respective leaders, and after that they will be made to enter paradise where the old men will be again made young. The most important point to ponder in this narration to understand the fact that even there will be leaders for elderly people is by looking at the specification made by Prophet(saw) i.e Hassan(ra) and Hussain(ra) will be leader for “YOUTH” of paradise, but if you see the narrations which talk about leaders of women of paradise, you will not find such specification made, because it was a general to young and elder women. But in this case since there were two types of leaders(i.e for youth and old people) that is why Prophet(Saw) specifically notified that Hassan(ra) and Hussain(ra) will be leaders over YOUTH of paradise. Which proves that there even existed some other Leaders for Old people of paradise. Otherwise why would Prophet(saw) specifically say leaders of “YOUTH” when people were already aware that every one would enter paradise after they will be made young. And Prophet(Saw) would have used also specified in similar manner when he talked about the leaders of women of paradise, he would have said that Mariam and Fatima were leaders of YOUNG women of paradise, but nothing as such was said, which proves that, those ignorants who think that the narrations which talk about Leaders of young men and leaders of elderly men are contradictory are completely wrong because these narrations when understood properly shows us that it is not a contradiction but its a CONTRADISTINCTION.

Ibn Asakir in his “Arbain fi manaqib ummahatil muminin” (#24) narrated from Ali, that prophet (Peace be upon him) said: “May Allah have mercy on Abu Bakr. He married me to his daughter, took me the the Abode of Hijrah, and freed Bilal with his own property. May Allah have mercy on Umar. He spoke the truth even if he were to suffer on account of it , and he observed the truth which made people hate him and caused his loss of friends. May Allah have mercy on Uthman. The angels are shy before him. May Allah have mercy on Ali. O Allah, make him observe the truth wherever he goes”. [Ibn Asakir said: “This is a al-Hasan saheeh tradition”].

[b]Mujahid, on the authority of Ibn Al-‘Abbas (May Allah be pleased with him) related that he had asked ‘Umar bin Al-Khattab why he had been given the epithet of Al-Farouque (he who distinguishes truth from falsehood), he replied: After I had embraced Islam, I asked the Prophet (Peace be upon him): ‘Aren’t we on the right path here and Hereafter?’ The Prophet (Peace be upon him) answered: ‘Of course you are! I swear by Allâh in Whose Hand my soul is, that you are right in this world and in the hereafter.’ I, therefore, asked the Prophet (Peace be upon him) ‘Why we then had to conduct clandestine activism. I swear by Allâh Who has sent you with the Truth, that we will leave our concealment and proclaim our noble cause publicly.’ We then went out in two groups, Hamzah leading one and I the other. We headed for the Mosque in broad daylight when the polytheists of Quraish saw us, their faces went pale and got incredibly depressed and resentful. On that very occasion, the Prophet (Peace be upon him) attached to me the epithet of Al-Farouqu.(the distinguisher between right and wrong) ( reported by Abu naeem and Ibn Asaakir)[/b] (Biographies of the rightly guided caliphs page 147-148 ) (“Rahiq al-makhtum” page 48)

View of Ahl-l-Bayt on the caliphate of Umar (ra)

Ibn Asakir related that Yasar Ibn Hamzah said: When Abu Bakr got gravely ill, he appeared to people from a small window; he said to them: “O people I have decided to entrust somebody to the caliphate, are you going to accept that ?” The people said: “We accepted that O the Caliph (successor) of the Messenger of Allah.” ^Ali Ibn Abi Talib stood and said: “We will never accept other than ^Umar.” Abu Bakr said: “It will be Umar.” This was mentioned by as-Suyutiyy in the “Tarikh al-Khulafa’”.

When Umar was appointed the Caliph ,
فقام علي فقال لا نرضى إلا أن يكون عمر بن الخطاب
Ali stood up and said : We will not agree upon anyone else in this matter except Umar.

Musannif , Kitabul Fazail
Asadul Ghaba, Vol. 4 ,p. 70
Riyadh un nadhra, Vol. 2, p. 88
Tarikh ul Khulufa, p. 61

Abd khair said (once)Ali(ra) while he was sitting on the minbar said: Prophet(Saw) passed away and abubakar(ra) was appointed as khalipha . He(ra) implemented his duty according to the way of prophet(Saw) and continued working according to the seerah of prophet(Saw) until he died, then umar(ra) became the khalipha, he too implemented his duty like the way prophet(saw) and abubakar(ra) did, and worked according to their seerah and died on the same way(Majmua al zawaid, vol 5, page 179).

We read in Kinzul Ammal
أشار لعمر ولم يألُ فبايعه المسلمون وبايعته معهم
Ali(ra) said: (Abu Bakr) pointed to Umar (i.e pointed that he should be caliph) and he didn’t err in it , hence the Muslims rendered allegiance to him, and I rendered allegiance alongwith them. [Kinzul Ammal, Kitabul Fatan, Vol. 6, p. 82]

Zaid bin Yathi’i narrated: from Ali (ra) that he said: it was said to the messenger of Allah PBUH: “Who becomes Ameer/Ruler after you?” He PBUH replied: ” If you(Muslims) choose Abu Bakr (ra) you will find him to be honest, a Zahed in this life and always seeking the afterlife. If you(Muslims) choose ‘Umar (ra) you will find him honest and strong, he does not fear anyone other than Allah. If you(Muslims) choose Ali (ra) and I do not see you doing this but if you do you will find him rightly guided and he will lead you to a straight path.
source:
-Musnad Ahmad 2/158, Ahmad Shakir said: SAHIH.
-al-Isabah 2/509, Ibn Hajar al-‘Asqalani said: Has a good Isnad.

One of the most sacred shia book states:
Verily, the people who payed allegience to Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman, have payed allegience to me based on the same principles as the allegience to them. So anyone who was present has no right to go against his pledge of allegience, and anyone who was absent has no right to oppose it. And verily shura (consultation) is only the right of the Muhajirs and the Ansar. So if they decide upon a man and declare him their imam, then it is with the pleasure of Allah. If anyone goes against this decision, then he must be persuaded to follow the rest of the people. If he persists, then fight with him for leaving that which has been accepted by the believers. And Allah shall let him wander misguided and not guide him. (Nahjul-Balaghah, Letter #6)

Similar narration is present in Bihar al anwar (32/368)(33/76), noor al thaqalayn(1/551).

Comment: This proves that Caliphate of Umar(ra) was with the pleasure of Allah according to Ahlebayt.

Ali said that he was loyal to umar, fought in the army in which he was commander, took what umar gave him, and went out to Jihad when he ordered it. He went on to say that he also used to meet out the punishments stipulated by Allah on the orders of umar. (Biographies of the rightly guided caliphs page 342).
[b]
Ibn Asaakir reports on the authority of hasan: when Ali arrived in Al basrah, Ibn Al kawwaa and Qays ibn Abaad went to him and said: tell us about this situation you have found yourself in; are you going to govern a nation wherein people attack each other? Didn’t the prophet(saw) promise you anything? Please inform us, as you are honest and trustworthy about what you heard from him. He(Ali) said: Concerning being promised something by the prophet(saw), he did not do that; by Allah I was the first person to believe his message, and would not be the first to lie against him. If he had promised me that(i.e caliphate), I would not have allowed the two brothers from the family of Taym Ibn Murrah, and umar Ibn khattab to stand on his (prophet’s) pulpit; I would have fought them single handed, even if I had no helmet but this garment of mine. But the prophet(Saw) was not murdered, nor did he die suddenly. He was sick for a number of days, and the Mu’zzin used to go to him, then call people to salaah. The prophet used to ask Abubakar to lead people in salaah, while he knew my status. One of his wives wanted him to choose someone else, instead of Abubakar, but he refused, became angry and said: you were even like the women that were with Joseph. Tell abubakr to lead the people in salah.[/b] (Biographies of the rightly guided caliphs page 341-342)

There are so many narrations whereby we see that there was no hostility between the ahl-l-bayt and Umar (ra), same can also be said for Abu Bakr and Uthman (ra), we now ask, where do these shia take their religion from? Who is their Imam that taught them these nasty behaviors against the companions of the Prophet (SAW)?

I honestly think Albaqir should back off from chastising the first three sahaba(RA). It's not healthy at all.All these so called Sunni ahadith albaqir got his references from are just literature. Doesnt make them all true. Just like Christian evangelists rely heavily on seerat of the prophet by Ibn Ishaq which is full of garbage. And Christians repy on it to castigate the prophet(SAW). But Ibn Isha's accusation are pretty much in conflict with Quran just like many ahadith quoted by baqir.

And is it true then, that when you are in the graves, you will be asked the following
1. Who is your Lord?
2. What is your deen?
3. Who is your Prophet?
4. HOW did you find Islam?
5. HOW did you leave Islam? (Your contributions)

Is this true that everyone will be asked?

It is True though that muslims are the ones responsible for the betterment of communities and the entire manlind, when and if they practice what Islam says.

If you do not have something nice to say, say nothing. Can you imagine how more.peaceful the world would be if muslims follow this simple rule?
@sino
I think you have done well to provide good information about the companions of the Prophet ( pbuh ). Don't be angry and get drawn into what is not necessary. Like you rightly said, some groups will see it only one way and no other. However, there are basic rules for living as a muslim and harming a fellow muslim ' s reputation is not one of it, not to talk of the Prophet's companions.
May Allah safeguard us, and count us among the rightly guided ones, ameen.

.

Empiree:
I honestly think Albaqir should back off from chastising the first sahaba(RA). It's not healthy at all.All these so called Sunni ahadith albaqir got his references from are just literature. Doesnt make them all true. Just like Christian evangelists rely heavily on seerat of the prophet by Ibn Ishaq which is full of garbage. And Christians repy on it to castigate the prophet(SAW). But Ibn Isha's accusation are pretty much in conflict with Quran just like many ahadith quoted by baqir.

Ha, the Hadith AlBaqir quoted are in conflict with the Quran? Then why did your Muhadithun grade them Sahih? I hate to interrupt at this juncture but i believe Al Baqir has a very compelling case. The verse you keep drawing as vindication of Umar(Quran 9:100) did not rule that the sahabas were perfect on incorruptible, that God is pleased with one today is no guarantee that God will be pleased with him for ever. And for all we know, Umar may not even be one of the Sahabas addressed.

I have said it in the past and will say it again, traditional mainstream Muslims know nothing about their religion. Umar in many Hadith is depicted as a very blood thirsty and aggressive brute often willing to behead his opponent at the slightest provocation. I don't have the references at the moment but i will post the Hadith on this thread once i do. Umar and Abubakar 's aggressive military campaign that led to the fall of the Sassanid and most of the Byzantine empire turned traditional Islam to a invasive military ideology that legislate aggressive warfare to conquer and rule non-Muslim territories that is exemplified by groups like ISIS today

usermane:


Ha, the Hadith Al Baqir quoted are in conflict with the Quran? Then why did your Muhadithun grade them Sahih? I hate to interrupt at this juncture but i believe Al Baqir has a very compelling case. The verse you keep drawing as vindication of Umar(Quran 9:100) did not rule that the sahabas were perfect on incorruptible, that God is pleased with one today is no guarantee that God will be pleased with him for ever. And for all we know, Umar may not even be one of the Sahabas addressed.

Its a sin in Sunni doctrine to expose the other side of certain Sahaba esp the 1st three Khalifah. Once you do, you are kafir. But its not sin for those Sahabah to accuse their Prophet of Raving madness just after their leader said "Indeed prophet has been fully possessed by his illness". The ayah "O believer do not raise your voices over that of the Prophet and do not talk to him the way you talk to each other lest your deeds be void". Obviously the ayah has been abrogated by the Sunni doctrine of "do not criticize any Sahabah"! Their good deeds are still intact. Allah is just joking!

In Sunni world Quran 9:100 has cleared all the Sahabah esp the early ones whether the verse explicitly say "from among the Muhajirun and Ansar". In fact, Quran 9:101 does not even exist in their world. Their is nothing like surah al-Munafiqun. It doesn't exist. ALL Sahabah worked righteously.

The thieves and the owner; the oppressed and the oppressors etc are all the same when its come to Sahabah in Sunni world. That's why you see a Nasibi like Zakir Naik praising a cursed and doomed Yazid ibn Mu'awiyah for his "services" to Islam especially for killing Prophet's household and later thousands of people of Madinah.

usermane:


I have said it in the past and will say it again, traditional mainstream Muslims know nothing about their religion. Umar in many Hadith is depicted as a very blood thirsty and aggressive brute often willing to behead his opponent at the slightest provocation. I don't have the references at the moment but i will post the Hadith on this thread once i do. Umar and Abubakar 's aggressive military campaign that led to the fall of the Sassanid and most of the Byzantine empire turned traditional Islam to a invasive military ideology that legislate aggressive warfare to conquer and rule non-Muslim territories.

When western orientalist and other antagonist of Islam submit that Islam was spread with the sword, we criticize them and prove ceaselessly that Islam spread by Muhammad was never by the sword. That all the wars he fought were defensive in nature to protect people and property. However, what about the wars fought by Umar b. al-Khattab? Were they in the footstep of his Prophet? Most of his battles were bloodthirsty and aggressive in nature. Yet our Sunni brethren praised him supreme for "spreading Islam" far and wide during his Khilafah.

usermane:


Ha, the Hadith AlBaqir quoted are in conflict with the Quran? Then why did your Muhadithun grade them Sahih? I hate to interrupt at this juncture but i believe Al Baqir has a very compelling case.

Ask albaqir himself. He said several times how "alhu sunnah wajamah" rushed to grade ahadith daif or sahih etc. But he didnt say that in this case bcus it isnt in his best interest. Muhaditun arent perfect.

The verse you keep drawing as vindication of Umar(Quran 9:100) did not rule that the sahabas were perfect on incorruptible, that God is pleased with one today is no guarantee that God will be pleased with him for ever. And for all we know, Umar may not even be one of the Sahabas addressed.

When we say "sahaba", we are referring to those companions who embraced Islam at time of the prophet(SAW). Like Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, Ali, Huraira, Abass, ibn Mushud (RA)etc NOT Kafir at the time of the prophet(SAW).

@underlined, no one says they were perfect. Matter of fact, sino said earlier that sahaba(RA) are not infallible. In that case, any errors recorded concerning any sahaba should be viewed as mere mistakes and should never be used against them bcus Quran sits in judgement over the literature.

I have said it in the past and will say it again, traditional mainstream Muslims know nothing about their religion. Umar in many Hadith is depicted as a very blood thirsty and aggressive brute often willing to behead his opponent at the slightest provocation. I don't have the references at the moment but i will post the Hadith on this thread once i do. Umar and Abubakar 's aggressive military campaign that led to the fall of the Sassanid and most of the Byzantine empire turned traditional Islam to a invasive military ideology that legislate aggressive warfare to conquer and rule non-Muslim territories that is exemplified by groups like ISIS today

Your attempt to link these Sahaba(RA) with isis absurd. Isis are bunch of crooks. They only hold up Quran in the air along with flags but have no idea of the contents. BIG DIFFERENCE. When Sahaba fought in battles they didint display Quran in the air to show they are muslims. So isis is mere propaganda machine. Dont dare compare them with Sahaba(RA)

Empiree:
Ask albaqir himself. He said several times how "alhu sunnah wajamah" rushed to grade ahadith daif or sahih etc. But he didnt say that in this case bcus it isnt in his best interest. Muhaditun arent perfect.

Obviously you don't know Shi'i methodology in grading ahadith likewise you know not that of Sunni.

In Shi'i science of hadith, the first thing we examine in hadith is its agreement and compatibility with the Quran. Quran being "the Furqan, and Tibyanan likuli Shay [clarifier of ALL THINGS].

In this case of Sahabah esp "Baare - your dad" (your own word), every single hadith quoted about him (and his cohorts) are in agreement with the Quran. He gave bad advise to the Prophet at Badr, Prophet turned away from him; Quran alludes to that. Umar and his cohorts ran away at Uhud leaving the Prophet in the midst of enemies while the Prophet continue shouting "come back". Quran talks about it. At Hudaybiyah, he doubted the Prophet, Quran talks a lot about Hudaybiyah and confirmed that a believer is he who doesn't doubt after believe. At Hunayn, Umar was among those who ran away, Quran talks about it. He raised his voice over that of the Prophet, Quran talks about it. The list is endless.

Among the Sunni's methodology of hadith sciences is to grade as authentic ANY hadith from ANY Sahabah. They don't care who he was. All of them are righteous despite Quran and the Prophet confirming Munafiqun among them.

Empiree:

When we say "sahaba", we are referring to those companions who embraced Islam at time of the prophet(SAW). Like Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, Ali, Huraira, Abass, ibn Mushud (RA)etc NOT Kafir at the time of the prophet(SAW).

So being a "Sahabah" is an automatic ticket to Jannah irrespective of your credentials?

Imam Bukhari documents:

Ibn Abbas: The Messenger of Allah says:
You will be resurrected bare-footed, naked and uncircumcised.” Then he recited: {As We began the first creation, We shall repeat it: a promise We have undertaken. Truly, We shall do it} [Q.21:104]. He continued: “The first to be dressed will be Ibrahim. Then, some of my Sahabah will be taken towards the right side AND (some) TOWARDS THE LEFT SIDE. So, I will say: "My Sahabah!‟ It will be said, "THEY HAD BEEN APOSTATES SINCE YOU LEFT THEM.‟ I will then say as the Righteous Servant, "Isa b. Maryam, said: {And I was a witness over them whilst I lived amongst them. But, when You caused me to die, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a Witness to all things. If You punish them, they are Your slaves, and if You forgive them, You, only You, are the All-Mighty, the All-Wise} [5:117-118].”

Muḥammad b. Yusuf narrated from Abu 'Abd Allah that Qubayṣah said: “They were those who apostatized during the time of Abū Bakr. So, Abū Bakr, may Allāh be pleased with him, fought them.”

Ref: {al-Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhari (Beirut: Dār Ibn Kathīr; 3rd edition, 1407 H) [annotator: Dr. Mustafa Dib al-Bagha], vol. 3, p. 1271, # 3263}

While Qubaysah [in the above hadith] is giving an impression to absolve the Sahaba that lived with the Prophet, other ahadith dispel this myth of an opinion. For example, Imam Muslim record as reported by Anas ibn Malik:

“The Prophet, peace be upon him, said, “Some persons from amongst those who kept me company will meet me at the LakeFount (in Qiyamat). I will see them, and they will be presented to me. Then, they will be forced away from me. I will say: "O my Lord, my Sahabah! My Sahabah ‟. It will be said to me: "You do not know what they INNOVATED after you.‟
Ref: {Sahih Muslim (Beirut: Dar Ihya al-Turath al-Arabi) [annotator: Muḥammad Fuad 'Abd al-Baqi], vol. 4, p. 1800, # 2304(40)

Empiree:

@underlined, no one says they were perfect. Matter of fact, sino said earlier that sahaba(RA) are not infallible. In that case, any errors recorded concerning any sahaba should be viewed as mere mistakes and should never be used against them bcus Quran sits in judgement over the literature.

Mere Mistakes?! They (the cowards) ran away REPEATEDLY from the battlefield leaving their Prophet for dead! Mere mistakes?! They disobeyed and questioned and doubted the Prophet on many occasions! Mere mistakes?! They planned to assassinate the Prophet! Mere mistake?! They accused him of Raving madness and being possessed by illness thereby denying him of his divine right?! Mere mistake?! After the death of the Prophet, the wage war upon war against his Ahl al-bayt until they were massacred. Mere mistakes?!

Empiree you are absolutely something else. Obviously the love of "any Sahabah" is making you to say gibberish. Note brother, The ONLY LOVE that is obligatory upon you that failure to do so is Jahanam is the love of Muhammad and his Ahl al-bayt.

AlBaqir:


Obviously you don't know Shi'i methodology in grading ahadith likewise you know not that of Sunni.

Really have no problem with this. We have talked about methodology before. That if hadith is in conflict with Quran, it is thrown out. Thats understandlable. There countless ahadith out there- while some critisize Umar, some vindicate him. Quran its;ef, despite not mentioning sahabas by name suggests that Allah has overlooked their wrongdoings. Therefore, it is unfair to rely on hadith to castige these men (Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman). Sahabas are many but you pretty much picked on the first three.

So being a "Sahabah" is an automatic ticket to Jannah irrespective of your credentials?

Yes! And we must speak positively of them and leave their affairs over to Allah except for where Quran and the prophet specifically declare individual company of Jahanam. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Sahabah#A

Imam Bukhari documents:

Ibn Abbas: The Messenger of Allah says:
You will be resurrected bare-footed, naked and uncircumcised.” Then he recited: {As We began the first creation, We shall repeat it: a promise We have undertaken. Truly, We shall do it} [Q.21:104]. He continued: “The first to be dressed will be Ibrahim. Then, some of my Sahabah will be taken towards the right side AND (some) TOWARDS THE LEFT SIDE. So, I will say: "My Sahabah!‟ It will be said, "THEY HAD BEEN APOSTATES SINCE YOU LEFT THEM.‟ I will then say as the Righteous Servant, "Isa b. Maryam, said: {And I was a witness over them whilst I lived amongst them. But, when You caused me to die, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a Witness to all things. If You punish them, they are Your slaves, and if You forgive them, You, only You, are the All-Mighty, the All-Wise} [5:117-118].”

Muḥammad b. Yusuf narrated from Abu 'Abd Allah that Qubayṣah said: “They were those who apostatized during the time of Abū Bakr. So, Abū Bakr, may Allāh be pleased with him, fought them.”

Ref: {al-Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhari (Beirut: Dār Ibn Kathīr; 3rd edition, 1407 H) [annotator: Dr. Mustafa Dib al-Bagha], vol. 3, p. 1271, # 3263}

While Qubaysah [in the above hadith] is giving an impression to absolve the Sahaba that lived with the Prophet, other ahadith dispel this myth of an opinion. For example, Imam Muslim record as reported by Anas ibn Malik:

“The Prophet, peace be upon him, said, “Some persons from amongst those who kept me company will meet me at the LakeFount (in Qiyamat). I will see them, and they will be presented to me. Then, they will be forced away from me. I will say: "O my Lord, my Sahabah! My Sahabah ‟. It will be said to me: "You do not know what they INNOVATED after you.‟
Ref: {Sahih Muslim (Beirut: Dar Ihya al-Turath al-Arabi) [annotator: Muḥammad Fuad 'Abd al-Baqi], vol. 4, p. 1800, # 2304(40)

And where does it mentioned Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman in this category?

Mere Mistakes?! They (the cowards) ran away REPEATEDLY from the battlefield leaving their Prophet for dead! Mere mistakes?! They disobeyed and questioned and doubted the Prophet on many occasions! Mere mistakes?! They planned to assassinate the Prophet! Mere mistake?! They accused him of Raving madness and being possessed by illness thereby denying him of his divine right?! Mere mistake?! After the death of the Prophet, the wage war upon war against his Ahl al-bayt until they were massacred. Mere mistakes?!

And I believe sino already dealt with this.

E.mpiree you are absolutely something else. Obviously the love of "any Sahabah" is making you to say gibberish. Note brother, The ONLY LOVE that is obligatory upon you that failure to do so is Jahanam is the love of Muhammad and his Ahl al-bayt.

Fortunately for empire.e, he recites EVERYDAY [size=20pt]"Allahuma Soli a'la saidina Muhammadin wa'ala aliy wa as-sahabiy wa a'al-bayt"[/size]

Olohun bawa ke Anobi, ati awon sahaba re, ati awon ara ile re ato gbogbo musulumi lapapo. Everyday, empiree says this

Empiree:
. There countless ahadith out there- while some critisize Umar, some vindicate him.

Ma sha Allah. Thanks for being honest for the very first time on this thread. In line with that submission above, further your research and you will discovered that those ahadith that criticized Umar actually exposed the unreliability of those that talked about his Merits. Example:

# Sahih Muslim under the merits of Umar reports (http://sunnah.com/muslim/44):

A. "Hamza b. Abdullah b. 'Umar b. Khattab reported on the authority of his father that Allah's Messenger (s) said:

While I was asleep I saw (in a dream) a cup containing milk being presented to me. I took out of that until I perceived freshness being reflected through my nails. Then I presented the leftover to 'Umar b. Khattab. They said: Allah's Messenger: How do you interpret it? He said: This implies knowledge."

* Examination of This Hadith in line with the Quran and Sunnah

Quran says: "So, judge between them by what Allah has revealed."{maidah:48}, "whosoever does not judge by what has been revealed, such is Fasiqun" (in other verses, it ends "...such is zalimun", "...such is kafirun) [surah Maidah].

Obviously the knowledge of Quran and Sunnah are the ultimate knowledge. And apparently according to this hadith on Umar's Merit, he is endowed with knowledge 'of Quran and Sunnah.' So lets verify Umar's competence.

1. Imam Muslim (d. 261 H):

Abd Allah b. Hisham al-Abdi - Yahya b. Sa'id al-Qattan - Shu'bah - al-Hakam - Dharr - Sa'id b. Abd al-Rahman b. Abza - his father:

A man came to Umar and said: "I have seminal discharges and I cannot find water (to perform ghusl)." He ('Umar) said, "Do not perform Salat." So, Ammar said, "Do you remember, O Amir al-Muminin, when I and you were in a military detachment and we had seminal discharges and could not find water and you ('Umar) did not perform the Salat. As for me, I rolled myself in dust and performed the Salat. So, the Prophet, peace be upon him, said, "It was enough for you to strike the soil with your hands and then blow and then wipe your face and palms." Umar said: "Fear Allah, O Ammar!" Therefore, he (Ammar) replied, "If you so like, I would not narrate it."
Ref: Sahih Muslim, vol.1, p.280, #112

Implication of Umar's judgment

Imam Muslim again records:

Shaqiq: I was sitting with Abd Allah (b. Mas'ud) and Abu Musa (al-Ash'ari). So, Abu Musa asked: "O Abu Abd al-Rahman, what is your opinion: If a man had a seminal discharge and could not find water for one month, how should he do about the Salat? 'Abd Allah replied, "He should NOT perform tayammum even if he cannot find water for a month".

Abu Musa then said, "What about this verse in Surat Maidah said, 'And you cannot find water, then perform tayammum with clean soil?" Abd Allah replied, "If they were allowed on the basis of this verse, there is a possibility that they would perform tayammum with soil even if water were available but cold." So, Abu Musa said to Abd Allah, "Have you not heard the statement of Ammar: "The Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, sent me on an errand and I had a seminal discharge, but could not find water. So I rolled myself in the soil just as a beast rolls itself. Then, I came to the Prophet, peace be upon him, then and mentioned that to him and he said: "It would have been enough for you to do thus". Then he struck the earth with his hands once and wiped his right hand with the help of his left hand and the exterior of his palms and his face." 'Abd Allah replied: "Didn't you see that 'Umar was NOT satisfied with the statement of 'Ammar?"
Ref: {Sahih Muslim, vol.1, p.280, #110}

Quran is explicit when Allah says:
And if you are ill, or on a journey, or one of you comes after answering the call of nature, or you have had sexual intercourse with women and you cannot find water, perform tayammum with clean soil and rub therewith your faces and hands {surah Nisa:43; surah Maidah:6}.

So Mr Empiree where is "the knowledge" of Umar ibn al-Khattab?

2. Imam Ibn Abi Hatim (d. 327 H) records:

My father (Abu Hatim) - Abu Bakr Muhammad b. Bashar - Ibn Abi 'Adi - Sa'id - Qatadah - Abu Harb b. Abi al-Aswad al-Dili - his father (Abu al-Aswad al-Dayli):

A woman was brought to Umar b. al-Khattab. She had delivered after (only) six months of pregnancy. So, he ('Umar) resolved to stone her to death. This (decision) reached 'Ali. Therefore, he (Ali) said, "She does not deserve any penalty of stoning to death. Allah says: "The mothers shall give suck to their children for two whole years (Quran 2:233)'. This (period of 24months) plus six months equals thirty months (mentioned in Quran 46:15 as the total for both pregnancy and suckling)"
Ref: {Tafsir Ibn Abi Hatim, vol.2, p.428, #2264}

NB: All the narrators of this athar were Thiqah (trustworthy).

I just limit myself to these two examples as many were documented. Again Mr Empiree where's the said "knowledge" of Umar b. al-Khattab?

B. Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (S) as saying:

While I was asleep I saw myself on a well with a leathern bucket on a pulley. I drew (water) out of that as Allah wished me (to draw). Then the son of Abu Quhafa (Abu Bakr) drew from it one bucketful or two and there was some weakness in drawing that (may Allah forgive him). Then that bucket (changed into a large bucket) and Ibn Khattab drew it. I did not see any strongest man drawing it like 'Umar b. Khattab. He brought out so much water that the camels of the people had enough to drink and then laid down (for rest)

What's the meaning of this 'dream'? Strength I guess. With whatever meaning it has, it is obvious from the hadith that Umar possess that quality much more than the Prophet and Abu Bakr.

Ahadith are before you how Umar repeatedly ran away from the battlefield. So much was his strength and valor.

Empiree:

Quran its;ef, despite not mentioning sahabas by name suggests that Allah has overlooked their wrongdoings. Therefore, it is unfair to rely on hadith to castige these men (Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman). Sahabas are many but you pretty much picked on the first three.

# Those three according to Sunni were the best in that pecking order. Therefore to whom much is giving, much is also expected.

# When you use the word "Sahabah", it connotes, according to Sunni definition, ALL of those who profess Islam during the lifetime of the Prophet. Munafiqun whose abode is pit of hell fire [Allah promised] were also Sahabah.

# So there is need to separate grains from chaff. It is an insult upon the righteous Sahabah to group the Munafiqun with them altogether. Allah and His prophet separate them.

Empiree:

Yes! And we must speak positively of them and leave their affairs over to Allah except for where Quran and the prophet specifically declare individual company of Jahanam.

# Ma sha Allah. So why do you then feel pained whenever their deeds were exposed? Whether we examine their deeds or not , Allah will judge them and us. Saying they ALL have direct flight to Jannah is not only contradictory to the Quran and Sunnah but also their deeds.

# Allah's door of forgiveness is widely open provided you repent and do not return to sinful ways. It is on this standard that everybody is judged.

Empiree:

And where does it mentioned Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman in this category?

# Were they not among the Sahabah who used to keep the Prophet company? This is a critical hadith that suggest everybody around the Prophet as suspect. And a truth seeker is saddled with responsibility of thorough investigation into the life of every companion starting with the heavyweights.

The Prophet, peace be upon him, said, “Some persons from amongst those who kept me company will meet me at the LakeFount (in Qiyamat). I will see them, and they will be presented to me. Then, they will be forced away from me. I will say: "O my Lord, my Sahabah! My Sahabah ‟. It will be said to me: "You do not know what they INNOVATED after you."

Empiree:

Fortunately for empire.e, he recites EVERYDAY [size=20pt]"Allahuma Soli a'la saidina Muhammadin wa'ala aliy wa as-sahabiy wa a'al-bayt"[/size]

Olohun bawa ke Anobi, ati awon sahaba re, ati awon ara ile re ato gbogbo musulumi lapapo. Everyday, empiree says this

# I respect your as-salatu but I have a bad news for you that what you are doing is Bid'ah.

What is required of you as commanded by the Prophet is O Allah! Bless Muhammad and the household of Muhammad.

# There is no single hadith where the Prophet added "...and the Sahabah". Interestingly NO Sahabah is ever reported to have added that alien phrase. Even if you wish to add the Sahabah as a result of your profound generosity, what is your Niyyat when you say "and the Sahabah?" Does it include all the Munafiqun and the Apostates among them?! In our school, we say "...wa ala Sahabatih al-Akhyar'"!

# Funny enough, you even dare to place the Sahabah first before the Household in your alien Salawat I consider it as Mistake.

AlBaqir:


Ma sha Allah. Thanks for being honest for the very first time on this thread. In line with that submission above, further your research and you will discovered that those ahadith that criticized Umar actually exposed the unreliability of those that talked about his Merits.

I think you need to look at the big picture. Despite many ahadith that demerit Umar(RA), this should have had great effect for his acceptance by the entire Ummah throughout 1400 history of Islam. How come his merit survived millions of great shuyuk, Imams, waliy, scholars for the last 1400yrs?. Were they all wrong to have accepted merit of Umar?. In my opinion, these ahadith that bad mouth this great man(RA) would have to be re-examined. It doesnt bother me one bit for those negative ahadith graded sahih.

Obviously the knowledge of Quran and Sunnah are the ultimate knowledge. And apparently according to this hadith on Umar's Merit, he is endowed with knowledge 'of Quran and Sunnah.' So lets verify Umar's competence.

1. Imam Muslim (d. 261 H):

Abd Allah b. Hisham al-Abdi - Yahya b. Sa'id al-Qattan - Shu'bah - al-Hakam - Dharr - Sa'id b. Abd al-Rahman b. Abza - his father:

A man came to Umar and said: "I have seminal discharges and I cannot find water (to perform ghusl)." He ('Umar) said, "Do not perform Salat." So, Ammar said, "Do you remember, O Amir al-Muminin, when I and you were in a military detachment and we had seminal discharges and could not find water and you ('Umar) did not perform the Salat. As for me, I rolled myself in dust and performed the Salat. So, the Prophet, peace be upon him, said, "It was enough for you to strike the soil with your hands and then blow and then wipe your face and palms." Umar said: "Fear Allah, O Ammar!" Therefore, he (Ammar) replied, "If you so like, I would not narrate it."
Ref: Sahih Muslim, vol.1, p.280, #112

Implication of Umar's judgment

Imam Muslim again records:

Shaqiq: I was sitting with Abd Allah (b. Mas'ud) and Abu Musa (al-Ash'ari). So, Abu Musa asked: "O Abu Abd al-Rahman, what is your opinion: If a man had a seminal discharge and could not find water for one month, how should he do about the Salat? 'Abd Allah replied, "He should NOT perform tayammum even if he cannot find water for a month".

Abu Musa then said, "What about this verse in Surat Maidah said, 'And you cannot find water, then perform tayammum with clean soil?" Abd Allah replied, "If they were allowed on the basis of this verse, there is a possibility that they would perform tayammum with soil even if water were available but cold." So, Abu Musa said to Abd Allah, "Have you not heard the statement of Ammar: "The Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, sent me on an errand and I had a seminal discharge, but could not find water. So I rolled myself in the soil just as a beast rolls itself. Then, I came to the Prophet, peace be upon him, then and mentioned that to him and he said: "It would have been enough for you to do thus". Then he struck the earth with his hands once and wiped his right hand with the help of his left hand and the exterior of his palms and his face." 'Abd Allah replied: "Didn't you see that 'Umar was NOT satisfied with the statement of 'Ammar?"
Ref: {Sahih Muslim, vol.1, p.280, #110}

Quran is explicit when Allah says:
And if you are ill, or on a journey, or one of you comes after answering the call of nature, or you have had sexual intercourse with women and you cannot find water, perform tayammum with clean soil and rub therewith your faces and hands {surah Nisa:43; surah Maidah:6}.

So Mr Emp.iree where is "the knowledge" of Umar ibn al-Khattab?

The incident apprears to be matter of ijtihad. Umar(ra) was definitely aware of these verse of Quran you cited.


To rephrase,

Sahih Muslim, Book of Menstruation, chapter on Tayammum:


Abd al-Rabmin b. Abza narrated It on the authority of his father that a man came to ‘Umar and said: I am (at times) affected by seminal emission but find no water. He (‘Umar) told him not to say prayer. ‘Ammar then said. Do you remember,0 Commander of the Faithful, when I and you were in a military detachment and we had had a seminal emission and did not find water (for taking bath) and you did not say prayer, but as for myself I rolled in dust and said prayer, and (when it was mentioned before) the Apostle (may peace be upon him) said: It was enough for you to strike the ground with your hands and then blow (the dust) and then wipe your face and palms. Umar said: ‘Ammar, fear Allah. He said: If you so like, I would not narrate it.


A hadith like this has been transmitted with the same chain of transmitters but for the words: ‘Umar said: We hold you responsible for what you claim.”


Based on above narration some people allege that Umar bin Khattab (ra) was unaware of the verses of Tayammum. Basically Tayammum has been mentioned at two places in the Qur’an. First in Surah Nisa verse 43 & in Surah Ma’idah verse 6

Sayyiduna ‘Umar (ra) was certainly aware of this verses and he also held it permissible to perform Tayammum in case of minor impurity [i.e. when only ablution is necessary] when there is no water available. But according to him it was not permissible to perform Tayammum in case of major impurity [i.e. when Ghusl is necessary]. In the above two verses if the word “lams” is taken for sexual intercourse then it does go against ‘Umar (ra), however if it is taken to mean physical touch then it is not a proof against his opinion. Basically the meaning of that part is controversial among scholars. According to Imam Shafi’i the part “Lamastumun Nisa” means touching of women while according to Imam Abu Hanifa it means sexual intercourse. So Umar (ra) was not actually unaware of the verses of Tayammum but he considered them to be only for those who with minor impurity but not in case of Janabah. It was a matter of Ijtihad not like some are trying to portray as though he was simply ignorant of the verses of Qur’an. It is said that he left this opinion. And Allah knows best.


Another point which clearly shows that the verse is not decisive against the view held by ‘Umar (ra) is the fact that in the incident which happened between him and ‘Ammar bin Yasir (ra) regarding the issue Ammar (ra) reminded him of an incident happened during the lifetime of the Prophet (sallallahu ‘alaihi wa sallam) and not the verses regarding Tayammum. There could not have been any evidence stronger than the verse of Qur’an and ‘Ammar (ra) would never had left it if it were against ‘Umar (ra).

And Allah knows best

2. Imam Ibn Abi Hatim (d. 327 H) records:

My father (Abu Hatim) - Abu Bakr Muhammad b. Bashar - Ibn Abi 'Adi - Sa'id - Qatadah - Abu Harb b. Abi al-Aswad al-Dili - his father (Abu al-Aswad al-Dayli):

A woman was brought to Umar b. al-Khattab. She had delivered after (only) six months of pregnancy. So, he ('Umar) resolved to stone her to death. This (decision) reached 'Ali. Therefore, he (Ali) said, "She does not deserve any penalty of stoning to death. Allah says: "The mothers shall give suck to their children for two whole years (Quran 2:233)'. This (period of 24months) plus six months equals thirty months (mentioned in Quran 46:15 as the total for both pregnancy and suckling)"
Ref: {Tafsir Ibn Abi Hatim, vol.2, p.428, #2264}

I tried to authdnticate this narration but cant find it except from your friend, Toyib-Olawuyi. I am havig hard time locating any related isnad.

B. Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (S) as saying:

While I was asleep I saw myself on a well with a leathern bucket on a pulley. I drew (water) out of that as Allah wished me (to draw). Then the son of Abu Quhafa (Abu Bakr) drew from it one bucketful or two and there was some weakness in drawing that (may Allah forgive him). Then that bucket (changed into a large bucket) and Ibn Khattab drew it. I did not see any strongest man drawing it like 'Umar b. Khattab. He brought out so much water that the camels of the people had enough to drink and then laid down (for rest)

What's the meaning of this 'dream'? Strength I guess. With whatever meaning it has, it is obvious from the hadith that Umar possess that quality much more than the Prophet and Abu Bakr.

One positive thing you ever relate with Umar(ra). Congratulations!

Ahadith are before you how Umar repeatedly ran away from the battlefield. So much was his strength and valor.

Mr. Sino already dealt with this I believe.

# Those three according to Sunni were the best in that pecking order. Therefore to whom much is giving, much is also expected.

# When you use the word "Sahabah", it connotes, according to Sunni definition, ALL of those who profess Islam during the lifetime of the Prophet. Munafiqun whose abode is pit of hell fire [Allah promised] were also Sahabah.

It's difficult to fish-out who is munafiq. That's Allah's right except for a famous munafiq named Abd-Allah ibn Ubayy (Arabic: عبد الله بن أبي بن سلول‎, died 631), also called ibn Salul (and perhaps few others).

# So there is need to separate grains from chaff. It is an insult upon the righteous Sahabah to group the Munafiqun with them altogether. Allah and His prophet separate them.

ibn Salul could definitely not be compared with Umar(ra).

The Prophet, peace be upon him, said, “Some persons from amongst those who kept me company will meet me at the LakeFount (in Qiyamat). I will see them, and they will be presented to me. Then, they will be forced away from me. I will say: "O my Lord, my Sahabah! My Sahabah ‟. It will be said to me: "You do not know what they INNOVATED after you."

This is broad. Even salafis have used this hadith against their 'opponents'. Still doesn't specifically relate to Umar.

# I respect your as-salatu but I have a bad news for you that what you are doing is Bid'ah.

What is required of you as commanded by the Prophet is O Allah! Bless Muhammad and the household of Muhammad.

# There is no single hadith where the Prophet added "...and the Sahabah". Interestingly NO Sahabah is ever reported to have added that alien phrase. Even if you wish to add the Sahabah as a result of your profound generosity, what is your Niyyat when you say "and the Sahabah?" Does it include all the Munafiqun and the Apostates among them?! In our school, we say "...wa ala Sahabatih al-Akhyar'"!

# Funny enough, you even dare to place the Sahabah first before the Household in your alien Salawat I consider it as Mistake.

Bid'ah? really?. You sound prosaic here now. How about I say:

"Allahuma sali ala Muhammad wa ala aliy Muhammad wa al-bayt, wa as-sahabiy, wa ala muslimeen"

meaning, I simply send blessings on the prophet, sahaba, his household and the entire muslim ummah is bid'ah? smh

# Were they not among the Sahabah who used to keep the Prophet company? This is a critical hadith that suggest everybody around the Prophet as suspect. And a truth seeker is saddled with responsibility of thorough investigation into the life of every companion starting with the heavyweights.

So Umar ibm Khatab is suspect #1? You too much. afterall, as sino previously said he died as muslim and must be treated as such. That must be our approach. You never disputed that. After all, with some negative ahadith recorded against him, if he was so bad, how come the entire 1400yrs of Islam till present his merit survived millions of Ulama if he was that bad?. This means there were some cooked up fallacies against this man.

After all he was a muslim. Not only a muslim but Amir. So..............

Empiree:
I think you need to look at the big picture. Despite many ahadith that demerit Umar(RA), this should have had great effect for his acceptance by the entire Ummah throughout 1400 history of Islam. How come his merit survived millions of great shuyuk, Imams, waliy, scholars for the last 1400yrs?. Were they all wrong to have accepted merit of Umar?. In my opinion, these ahadith bad mouth this great man(RA) would have to be re-examined. It doesnt bother me one bit for those negative ahadith graded sahih.

Oh! Success is being judged now by followership: Population-wise. Ma sha Allah Quran talks: Following majority opinion does not authenticate certain belief. Sorry bro that doesn't add up.

Empiree:

The incident apprears to be matter of ijtihad. Umar(ra) was definitely aware of these verse of Quran you cited.

Ijtihad (personal opinion) when there is clear divine ayah and prophetic sunnah?! Bros abeg go sleep. So much is the support for Umar.

Empiree:

To rephrase,

You don't need to rephrase anything. If Umar knew the verse of Tayammum and the Sunnah of the Prophet regarding unavailability of water in seminal discharge condition, and yet ruled NO SALAT and people followed his Ijtihad that even NO SALAT for a month in such condition, that compound his problem. That is defiance to Allah and His Prophet's law. And that is among the qualities of Shaitan.

Empiree:

I tried to authdnticate this narration but cant find it except from your friend, Toyib-Olawuyi. I am havig hard time locating any related isnad.

And Toyib Olawuyi did a yeoman's job. That's the work of Rijal in ilm al-hadith. You can venture into it and stop giving excuses. However there are other ahadith in the same genre authenticated by al-Albani and others. Like I said hadith yapa that exposed his "knowledge".

Empiree:

One positive thing you ever relate with Umar(ra). Congratulations!

Positive?! That Umar possess strength than Rasulullah and darling Abu Bakr? Oh boy people don sell their conscience to the devil. I admire your courage.

Empiree:

Mr. Sino already dealt with this I believe.

Yeah to polemic people like you.

Empiree:

It's difficult to fish-out who is munafiq. That's Allah's right except for a famous munafiq named Abd-Allah ibn Ubayy (Arabic: عبد الله بن أبي بن سلول‎, died 631), also called ibn Salul (and perhaps few others).

ibn Salul could definitely not be compared with Umar(ra).


This is broad. Even salafis have used this hadith against their 'opponents'. Still doesn't specifically relate to Umar.

So what's the use of signs of Munafiq? Abdullah ibn Ubayy's position as a Munafiq is far lower than those described in Surah tawbah:101

Empiree:

Bid'ah? really?. You sound prosaic here now. How about I say:

"Allahuma sali ala Muhammad wa ala aliy Muhammad wa al-bayt, wa as-sahabiy, wa ala muslimeen"

meaning, I simply blessings on the prophet, sahaba, his household and the entire muslim ummah is bid'ah? smh

Well you've been accused several times that you don't follow Prophet's dictations and order [Sunnah] so your response doesn't amaze me. Just for the record, this is what the holy Prophet (peace be upon him and his progeny) ordered you to do:

"O Allah! Bless Muhammad and the progeny of Muhammad in exactly the same way You have blessed Ibrahim and the progeny of Ibrahim..."

This is what Abubakar, Umar and Uthman did but you've taken yours to another dimension. I hail thee!

ayinba1:
And is it true then, that when you are in the graves, you will be asked the following
1. Who is your Lord?
2. What is your deen?
3. Who is your Prophet?
4. HOW did you find Islam?
5. HOW did you leave Islam? (Your contributions)

Is this true that everyone will be asked?

It is True though that muslims are the ones responsible for the betterment of communities and the entire manlind, when and if they practice what Islam says.

If you do not have something nice to say, say nothing. Can you imagine how more.peaceful the world would be if muslims follow this simple rule?
@sino
I think you have done well to provide good information about the companions of the Prophet ( pbuh ). Don't be angry and get drawn into what is not necessary. Like you rightly said, some groups will see it only one way and no other. However, there are basic rules for living as a muslim and harming a fellow muslim ' s reputation is not one of it, not to talk of the Prophet's companions.
May Allah safeguard us, and count us among the rightly guided ones, ameen.

Ameen to your prayers, Jazakumullahu khayran. I'll try not to be angry, the Prophet (SAW) and his companions faced much severe treatment from the pagans, He (SAW) did not get angry, but the pagans did not find any profit from their actions other than regret, some of them where saved by the Prophet's mercy, many of them perished to burn endlessly in hell fire.

I'll try to the best of my ability to defend the truth, I pray Allah (SWT) guides us with it, and a source of hujah for us on the day of judgement Ameen.

There was a time I wouldn’t bother to check the original text of the narration, but now, I can never take narrations from AlBaqir as it is evident that he would quote what supports his distorted views and leave that which would destroy his conjectures, copy and paste translations that are poor and deceitful.

Jazakumullah khayran Empiree for that beautiful rebuttal, may I also add,

Firstly, in sahih Muslim, the word which Umar (ra) uttered after ‘Ammar made the statement “if you wish, I would not narrate this” was “"نوليك ما توليت "Nuwallika ma Tawallayt."

In Fath al-Bari by Ibn Hajar, he explains this expression:

أي لا يلزم من كوني لا أتذكره أن لا يكون حقا في نفس الأمر ، فليس لي منعك من التحديث به

Meaning: It is not necessary that If I do not recall it then it isn't true, so I cannot prevent you from narrating this.

In Sharh Sunan abu Dawoud by al-`Abad:

يعني: نكلك إلى علمك وإلى ما عندك، ولك أن تعمل وتفتي بهذا

Meaning: We leave you to your knowledge, and it is permitted for you to practice upon it and to offer it as a verdict.

AlBaqir failed to quote this, perhaps he does not know....

This clearly indicates that Umar (ra) was not in disagreement with ‘Ammar, but accepted his opinion as a verdict, that was why he told him to fear Allah (SWT) on what he narrates. As Empiree rightly put it, it is a matter of Ijtihad. Imam An-Nawawi in his Sharh Sahih Muslim (vol 4 pg. 63), opined that this issue was a case of ijtihad, since ‘Ammar himself did ijtihad with how to perform tayammum when you are junub. This shows to a great extent that it wasn’t a practice to perform tayammum when you are junub, for it requires washing of the whole body, no wonder ‘Ammar himself, according to the narration, rolled in dust using the idea that since the whole body is to be washed, then rolling in dust would also suffice, whereby the prophet (SAW) corrected him and taught him what would suffice.

Again, in the narration of ‘Ammar, there is nowhere that indicates Umar (ra) was with him when the Prophet (SAW) taught him how to perform tayammum to cleanse the body after being in the state of janabah.

Let us now look at the meaning of what Ibn Masood (ra) said to Abdullah (ra), firstly, Ibn Masood was not basing his judgement on Umar (ra)’s opinion (like AlBaqir wants us to believe), it was what was apparent in the meaning of the verse quoted by Abdullah (ra), and Ibn Masood even tried to show the reason for his opinion by saying [b]“There is a possibility that they would perform tayammum with soil even if water were available but cold.” [/b]Meaning that Ibn Masood (ra) himself was with the opinion that washing the whole body was the proper way to purify from sexual intercourse (janabah).

It would not only be ridiculous, but utterly irresponsible to say that these sahabas did not know of this verse of the Qur’an, these were people who memorized the Qur’an as it was being revealed, and put it to use immediately. Again to buttress the fact that Ibn Masood knew about this verse, and was of the opinion that Janaba (being impure due to intercourse) is different from touching a woman physically, without intercourse which do not require ghusl but tayammum will suffice if no water was available, please read the following analysis:

Allah (SWT) says:

{O you who have believed, do not approach prayer while you are intoxicated until you know what you are saying or in a state of Janabah, except those passing through [a place of prayer], until you have washed [your whole body]. And if you are ill or on a journey or one of you comes from the place of relieving himself or you have contacted women and find no water, then seek clean earth and wipe over your faces and your hands [with it]. Indeed, Allah is ever Pardoning and Forgiving.} [4:43]

`Umar ibn al-Khattab (ra) and `Abdullah ibn Mas`oud (ra) never heard of the narration of Tayammum apparently, and they practiced based on the apparent meaning of these Qur'anic verses:

{O you who have believed, when you rise to [perform] prayer, wash your faces and your forearms to the elbows and wipe over your heads and wash your feet to the ankles. And if you are in a state of Janabah, then purify yourselves. But if you are ill or on a journey or one of you comes from the place of relieving himself or you have contacted women and do not find water, then seek clean earth and wipe over your faces and hands with it. Allah does not intend to make difficulty for you, but He intends to purify you and complete His favor upon you that you may be grateful.} [5:6]

Notice how this verse separates the ruling of Janabah from the rest of the matters, it says: {And if you are in a state of janabah, then purify yourselves}.

Even in verse [4:43] quoted by the Shia, they understood from this part that Janabah can only be removed by washing: {O you who have believed, do not approach prayer while you are intoxicated until you know what you are saying or in a state of Janabah, except those passing through [a place of prayer], until you have washed [your whole body]. }

Both verse [5:6] and [4:43] state clearly that Janabah is removed by washing.

In other words, they did not hear the narration of Tayammum, and they did not see that the person on Janabah is included in this part of the verse:

{But if you are ill or on a journey or one of you comes from the place of relieving himself or you have contacted women and do not find water, then seek clean earth and wipe over your faces and hands with it.}

They also understood that "contacting women" is anything less than reaching a state of Janabah, such as touching your wife with or without lust without having intercourse.

This is proven by the fact that `Abdullah ibn Mas`oud (ra) narrates:

حدثنا حفص عن أشعث عن الشعبي عن أصحاب عبد الله عن عبد الله قال اللمس ما دون الجماع

[Hafs from al-Ash`ath from al-Sha`bi, from the companions of `Abdullah (ra) that he says: "Contact" is what is less than intercourse. Also narrated by Wakee` from Suffiyan from al-Mugheerah from Ibrahim from `Abdullah (ra)]

With the same chain from the companions of `Ali ibn abi Talib (ra) that he believed that "contacting women" means having intercourse with them. Ibn `Abbas (ra) also believed this but his student Sa`eed ibn Jubayr believed otherwise, and some Imams also differed on this, the reader can refer to the chapter in Musannaf ibn abi Shaybah about the meaning of "contacting women".

I had once told AlBaqir that this is an issue of fiqh and cannot be used to castigate any companion of the Prophet (SAW), but he never listens, he his hell bent on his ways…

Another point I would like to bring to the notice of the readers, is the fact that Qaadhi Al-‘Iyyaad (544H.) explained the meaning of the statement of Ibn Masood to Abdulah (ra) about the displeasure of Umar (ra) to ‘Ammar narration as follows:
وقوله : (ألم تر عُمَر لمِ يقنع بقول عمارٍ ) ؛ لاَنه أخبره خبراً ذكر أنه شاهَدَه ولم
يذكره فجوَّز عليه الوهم كما جَوز على نفسه النسيانَ له ، ثم تركه وما اعتقَدَه وصححه ، إذ لم يخهمْهُ بقوله : (نُوَليك من ذلك ما تَوَليْتَ " ، بخلاف لو قطع على خطئه فيه .

And his (Ibn Masood) statement: “Don’t you see Umar (ra) was not satisfied with what ‘Ammar said”: this is because, he(‘Ammar) narrated it in such a way that indicated that he (Umar) was present, a witness to the whole event, and he (Umar (ra)) did not remember, so it is possible to admit that he (‘Ammar) was mistaken/delusional, as he (Umar) himself admits that he had forgotten this incidence. Then he (Umar) left him and his believe (of the incident) and he accepted it to be correct, even if he doesn’t understand this (narration) by saying : “ we accept from that what you take upon yourself” (this statement of Umar (ra) has also been explained above)….

Our Scholars are not ignorant people, they explain issues based on evidences, and it is quite painful that most of these explanations are in Arabic, and we are not doing enough jihad to learn about the deen, and that is why people like AlBaqir would have the effrontery to criticize a companion of the Prophet (SAW) like Umar (ra).

To refute the narration of stoning, although I couldn’t locate the narration myself, but I found a rebuttal online and I did a little bit of editing:

Firstly, the translated Arabic phrase "fa hamm bi rajmiha" as "so he resolved to stone her to death" is wrong . The correct translation is "so he intended to stone" and this phrase is more explained in other version of this hadith which shows that Umar discussed it among Sahaba before judging and there he was told by Ali that the least time-limit of a pregnancy is six months. Hence he left that woman. This is reported by Abdur-Razzaq and Suyuti quoted it from Abdur-Razzaq, Ibn al-Mundhir and Abd bin Humaid. So we see that Umar did not finalize it until he was informed by Ali (ra).

Secondly, There are certain incidents which establish that Umar (ra) would not inflict the punishment only because of delivery rather he would give excuse if there is chance of forced intercourse. Ibn Qudamah quotes from Sunan of Sa'eed bin Mansur:

فَرَوَى سَعِيدٌ، حَدَّثَنَا خَلَفُ بْنُ خَلِيفَةَ، حَدَّثَنَا هَاشِمٌ، أَنَّ امْرَأَةً رُفِعَتْ إلَى عُمَرَ بْنِ الْخَطَّابِ، لَيْسَ لَهَا زَوْجٌ، وَقَدْ حَمَلَتْ، فَسَأَلَهَا عُمَرُ، فَقَالَتْ: إنِّي امْرَأَةٌ ثَقِيلَةُ الرَّأْسِ، وَقَعَ عَلَيَّ رَجُلٌ وَأَنَا نَائِمَةٌ، فَمَا اسْتَيْقَظْت حَتَّى فَرَغَ. فَدَرَأَ عَنْهَا الْحَدَّ

This incident is also reported in Musannaf Ibn Abi Shaibah and other books. And Allah knows best.

This clearly shows that all what AlBaqir can bring against these companions of the Prophet (SAW) cannot be used to castigate them or vilify them. As mentioned earlier, Islamic knowledge is not based on quoting narrations and authenticating them, and definitely not based on conjectures, lies and deceit. That is why we have scholars; those who are have attained true scholarship, and are pious and sincere.

I have asked AlBaqir to produce authentic proof that what he is doing is sanctioned by the ahl-l-bayt and the “infallible” Imams, yet nothing has been produced, rather what I have presented shows the Imams and the ahl-bayt held Umar (ra) in high esteem. Would it then be out of place to say AlBaqir and his cohorts are not followers of the ahl-l-bayt?

AlBaqir who do you follow with these your castigation and slander of the companions of the Prophet (SAW)? Tell us who you are emulating, provide your proof if you are truthful…

@Empiree, you do not need to add “wa ‘ala ahl-l-bayt”, it is already covered in “wa ‘ala ahlihi” and Allah knows best.

sino:
There was a time I wouldn’t bother to check the original text of the narration, but now, I can never take narrations from AlBaqir as it is evident that he would quote what supports his distorted views and leave that which would destroy his conjectures, copy and paste translations that are poor and deceitful.

# That's how you accused me on the narration of pen and paper as if I did not quote the whole narration. I again posted both the Arabic and English as against your distorted copied translation.

# Here we are again. Kindly expose which part of the two ahadith in Sahih Muslim I hide?

NB: The only hadith I didn't quote its full text (which you later did) was that where Umar revealed Imam Ali's and Hazrat Abbas thought on himself and Abubakar. And my comment is there for the world to see. Whether the full text or not, the thought of the two against Abubakar and Umar remain as it is.

sino:

And his (Ibn Masood) statement: “Don’t you see Umar (ra) was not satisfied with what ‘Ammar said”: this is because, he(‘Ammar) narrated it in such a way that indicated that he (Umar) was present, a witness to the whole event, and he (Umar (ra)) did not remember, so it is possible to admit that he (‘Ammar) [size=20pt]was mistaken/delusional[/size], as he (Umar) himself admits that he had forgotten this incidence. Then he (Umar) left him and his believe (of the incident) and he accepted it to be correct, even if he doesn’t understand this (narration) by saying : “ we accept from that what you take upon yourself” (this statement of Umar (ra) has also been explained above)….

This is the only interesting part of your story. Ammar ibn Yassir, DELUSIONAL?! Ma sha Allah. So much is the love for ibn al-Khattab.

# I still appreciate that powerful language on Umar's character: RECKLESS ATTITUDES.

# Now since Ammar ibn Yassir is DELUSIONAL as per his story with Umar, and Prophet's clarification, we have nothing left except the glorious Quran. Try as much as you can, this very ayah completely destroy your (and Ulama's) theory and stories:


O you who believe! when you rise up to prayer, wash your faces and your hands as far as the elbows, and wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles; and if you are under an obligation to perform a total ablution, then wash (yourselves) and if you are sick or on a journey, or one of you come from the privy, or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth and wipe your faces and your hands therewith, Allah does not desire to put on you any difficulty, but He wishes to purify you and that He may complete His favor on you, so that you may be grateful.

# Whatever the condition may be (whether those ones mentioned in the ayah or seminal discharge as in the hadith), the ultimate condition is and you cannot find water, perform tayammum. SIMPLE! All the twisting and manipulation of Allah's and Prophet's exclusive ruling just to protect the ignorance of Umar never add up. Really its a shame and crazy world.

sino:

To refute the narration of stoning, although I couldn’t locate the narration myself, but I found a rebuttal online and I did a little bit of editing:

Firstly, the translated Arabic phrase "fa hamm bi rajmiha" as "so he resolved to stone her to death" is wrong . The correct translation is "so he intended to stone" and this phrase is more explained in other version of this hadith which shows that Umar discussed it among Sahaba before judging and there he was told by Ali that the least time-limit of a pregnancy is six months. Hence he left that woman. This is reported by Abdur-Razzaq and Suyuti quoted it from Abdur-Razzaq, Ibn al-Mundhir and Abd bin Humaid. So we see that Umar did not finalize it until he was informed by Ali (ra).

# I can never argue with you on Arabic wording again. You've simply displayed several times your inability.

# Whichever way you accept (intended or resolved after consultation), the point remain Umar (and his panel of jury) were ignorant of Allah's ruling. Thanks to Allah for the presence of the best judge of the community and the most knowledgeable of the Quran and Sunnah - Imam Ali (alaihim Salam).

* The case of a lunatic woman is also there where he ruled her to be stoned.
* The case of Mughirah ibn Shu'bah, a Sahabi, who committed adultery is also there.

sino:

@Empiree, you do not need to add “wa ‘ala ahl-l-bayt”, it is already covered in “wa ‘ala ahlihi” and Allah knows best.

Please be generous to tell him also there is no "...wa ala Sahabatihi" there.

MrOlai:
For the benefit of generality of Muslims who might be following, the OP of this thread is a chronic shia. The summary of all he's trying to put forth is to castigate one of the noble companions of the Prophet (SAW) in the person of Umar(R.A) whose contributions to the growth of Islam cannot be overemphasized.

The OP(Albaqir) and his cohorts have deep hatred for the first three Caliphs of Islam is Abubakr, Umar and Uthman (R.A Ajma'in).Infact, they rain curses on them every year!

The OP(Albaqir) and his cohorts have deep hatred for Ummul Muhmineen, Aisha(R.A), the wife of the Prophet (SAW). Some of them accuse her(R.A) of committing adultery! Some of them accuse her(R.A) of poisoning the Prophet(SAW)! Some of them rain curses on her(R.A) year in year out! Infact, all of them accuse her(R.A) of treachery and use unprintable words on her(R.A)!


This is what he(OP) has to say about the three Caliphs (R.A):




This is what he has to say about Aisha(R.A):




This is what he has to say specifically about Umar(R.A):




All he(OP) does here is to always say all sorts of evils about those pious predecessors who strived with their lives and wealths for Islam we are benefitting from today! All he does here is to always spring up sectarianism!


So, for the viewers, it's better to always disregard him. All his rewards is with Allah(SWT).

For the moderators of Islam Section, let's be mindful of Allah(SAW). Threads like this should not be allowed at all if truly we fear Allah(SWT) and we are sure we'll be accountable to Him(SWT) one day!

Maa Shaaa Allaah