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Quirinius' Census Is An Important Historical Marker For Jesus' Birth - But... by OLAADEGBU(m): 2:39pm On Dec 25, 2015 |
Quirinius' census is an important historical marker for Jesus' birth - but it doesn't seem to match history. Why? Does Luke's claim that Jesus was born in Bethlehem at the time of Quirinius' census match the historical record? Is this an example of a contradiction? |
Re: Quirinius' Census Is An Important Historical Marker For Jesus' Birth - But... by OLAADEGBU(m): 4:07pm On Dec 30, 2015 |
Does Luke's claim that Jesus was born in Bethlehem at the time of Quirinius' census match the historical record? |
Re: Quirinius' Census Is An Important Historical Marker For Jesus' Birth - But... by OLAADEGBU(m): 3:55am On Jan 05, 2016 |
OLAADEGBU: Suggested answer: Quirinius' census has been a point of controversy among biblical scholars and skeptics for centuries. History tells us that Caesar Augustus reigned over the Roman Empire from 27 BC to AD 14 and ordered a census to be conducted during his tenure. Herod the Great reigned until 4 BC, meaning Jesus has to be born sometime before that time. The mention of Quirinius as governor of Syria in Luke chapter 2 appears to cause a problem as history records that Quirinius held this office between AD 6-7, at least 10 years after the birth of Jesus according to Matthew and Luke. There are at least three possibilities here for how we can interpret what is written in Luke 2:2: (1) Luke made a historical error regarding Quirinius' census. This would presuppose that Luke was not inspired by the Holy Spirit in all his writings. (2) The Greek word for "first" in Luke 2:2 is protos and can be translated "before." Thus Luke 2:2 could actually be translated, "This was the census taken before Quirinius was governor of Syria." (3) Quirinius actually ruled Syria on two separate occasions and there were actually two censuses taken. The "first census" mentioned in Luke 2:2 occurred during his first term as governor, and another was ordered during his second term as governor mentioned in Acts 5:37, which probably took place between AD 6-7 (Josephus links this census to an uprising under Judas of Galilee). With Luke being the author of both Luke and Acts and wanting to write in "consecutive order" (Luke 1:3), it would seem unlikely for Luke to make such a mistake in dating. Further, the Christian doctrine of the inerrancy of the Word of God (2 Timothy 3:16, 2 Peter 1:20-21) leads us to accept explanation (2) or (3) as the most likely, with the most evidence pointing to explanation (3). The Bible is true and spoken from God's mouth (God-breathed), and we accept it as truth more than the historical writings of the Romans or even the writings of the Jewish historian Josephus. http://www.gotquestions.org/Quirinius-census.html |
Re: Quirinius' Census Is An Important Historical Marker For Jesus' Birth - But... by urahara(m): 4:29am On Jan 05, 2016 |
OLAADEGBU: First of all, the basic meaning is clear and unambiguous, so there is no reason even to look for another meaning. The passage says hautê apographê prôtê egeneto hêgemoneuontos tês Syrias Kyrêniou , or with interlinear translation, hautê (this) apographê(census) prôtê[the] (first) egeneto (happened to be) hêgemoneuontos [while] (governing) tês Syrias(Syria) Kyrêniou [was] (Quirinius). The correct word order, in English, is "this happened to be the first census while Quirinius was governing Syria." This is very straightforward, and all translations render it in such a manner. Nevertheless, what is usually offered in support of a "reinterpretation" of the word is the fact that when prôtos can be rendered "before" it is followed by a noun in the genitive (the genitive of comparison), and in this passage the entire clause hêgemoneuontos tês Syrias Kyrêniou is in the genitive. But this does not work grammatically. The word hêgemoneuontos is not a noun, but a present participle (e.g. "jogging," "saying," "filing," hence "ruling" in the genitive case with a subject (Kyrêniou ) also in the genitive. Whenever we see that we know that it is a construction called a "genitive absolute," and thus it doesn't make sense to regard it as a genitive connected to the "census" clause. In fact, that is ruled out immediately by the fact that the verb (egeneto ) stands between the census clause and the ruling clause--in order for the ruling clause to be in comparison with the census clause, it would have to immediately follow or precede the adjective "first," but since it doesn't, and the entire clause is separated from the rest of the sentence, it can only be an absolute construction. A genitive absolute does have many possible renderings, e.g. it can mean "while" or "although" or "after" or "because" or "since," but none allow the desired reinterpretation here.[ 10.4 ] John 1:15 and 1:30 are a case in point: the context is clearly established by the point of contrast being made, "he who comes after me [ opisô mou] is ahead of me [ emprosthen mou ] because he was before me [ prôtê mou ]." Again, the meaning is "because he was first [in relation] to me," especially since the subject is Jesus, who was just described as the first of all creation (1:1-14). So here we have an example of when prôtos means "before," yet all the grammatical requirements are met for such a meaning, which are not met in Luke 2:2: the genitive here is not a participle with subject, but a lone pronoun (thus in the genitive of comparison); the genitive follows immediately after the adjective; and the earlier prepositions ( opisô and emprosthen ) establish the required context. Since this is clearly not the same construction as appears in Luke 2:2, it provides no analogy.[ 10.5 ] And this is in John. Luke never uses prôtos as "before" in such a chronological sense. As a genitive absolute, further separated from prôtê by a verb, the Quirinius clause cannot have any grammatical connection with prôtê . It therefore cannot mean "before" in this context. Nor does it make any sense to "retranslate" the phrase as "this census happened to be most important when Quirinius was governing Syria."[ 10.6 ] That requires a context in order for the word "first" to be read as modifying an actual or implied adjective of "importance," but no such adjective is present or implied. Instead, the narrative clearly intends to explain why Joseph is going to Bethlehem. A digression away from that point would require an explanation, simply to make the digression intelligible. Since Luke gives no such explanation, he cannot have intended this to be a digression, much less one so obscurely worded. Luke can only have meant this to be the reason for Joseph's journey, and that's how every ancient reader would have read it. Therefore, "this [Augustan] census first happened [in Judaea] when Quirinius was governing Syria" is the only contextually plausible reading of Luke's Greek. Any other interpretation convicts Luke of being a talentless and unintelligible author. Besides making no sense grammatically, neither of these alternatives fits the fact that no census before Quirinius would have affected Joseph or Bethlehem. 1 Like |
Re: Quirinius' Census Is An Important Historical Marker For Jesus' Birth - But... by urahara(m): 4:36am On Jan 05, 2016 |
OLAADEGBU: No SINGLE SOUL HAS EVER governed a Roman province twice in the whole of Roman history |
Re: Quirinius' Census Is An Important Historical Marker For Jesus' Birth - But... by OLAADEGBU(m): 4:49am On Jan 05, 2016 |
urahara: So what is your conclusion? |
Re: Quirinius' Census Is An Important Historical Marker For Jesus' Birth - But... by urahara(m): 5:06am On Jan 05, 2016 |
OLAADEGBU: So the claim that Quirinius was the sole known exception is so extraordinary it certainly can't be maintained without evidence. Such an astonishing and unique honor could not have been omitted by Josephus or Tacitus ( Annals 3.48 ), yet both describe his career without any mention of it. Historical evidence also confirms other men governed Syria between 12 and 3 B.C.E., so Quirinius could not have been governor then, and he was not qualified to hold that office before the year 12. Furthermore since herod died at 4bc and the bible says the census of quirinius occurred during the time of herod the great this is false because all the governors of Syria are known from 12 BC to 3 BC https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Roman_governors_of_Syria He couldn't have been governor before 12 BC because he had not yet attained consular ranking which is a requirement for being governor. Even if Quirinius had been governor a previous time, conveniently during the reign of Herod the Great, and conducted a census, that census could not have included Judaea, for Judaea was not under direct Roman control at that time, and not being directly taxed. There is no example of, or rationale for, a census of an independent kingdom ever being conducted in Roman history. Therefore, the census Luke describes could only have been taken after the death of Herod, when Judaea was annexed to the Roman province of Syria, just as Josephus describes. All attempts to argue otherwise have no merit: Luke did not mean a census before Quirinius, could not have imagined Quirinius holding some other position besides governor, and could not have mistook him for someone else. 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Quirinius' Census Is An Important Historical Marker For Jesus' Birth - But... by urahara(m): 5:14am On Jan 05, 2016 |
Whether conducted by Quirinius or anyone else, there could not have been a census in Judaea before 6 A.D., since the province had not entered direct Roman control before then. But since Quirinius is the first Roman governor to take control of Judaea, we expect a census to occur at that time. This was the nature of Roman imperialism. The whole point of a client kingdom, as Judaea was in the time of Herod the Great and Archelaus, was that the kingdom retain its independence while paying a set and agreed annual tribute. Rome held many rights by treaty, such as the ability to confirm or veto kings, but formal interference ended there. Many territories received this special status for cooperating with Rome in important wars, or when Rome did not want to trouble itself with running the province directly, and typically these client states surrounded and protected the borders of the Empire, providing a kind of buffer zone against invasions.[ 9.1 ] To conduct a census in contravention of such an alliance would have been a notable event indeed, mentioned in many other places as the peculiar event it would have been--and that's even if it didn't start an outright war, as almost happened when the Romans finally did conduct a census in Judaea in 6 A.D.[ 9.2 ] Why, after all, would Rome want a census of a territory it was not taxing directly? Not only was such a thing never done at any time in the history of Rome, it would have served no practical purpose. According to A.N. Sherwin-White, Horst Braunert's study of the subject "disproves conclusively the notion of a Roman census before the creation of the province" while also demonstrating that a census was "a necessary consequence of the establishment of direct provincial government." And as we saw above , Josephus confirms a census at the beginning of Quirinius' reign, just when we would expect it. Not only is a census before the annexation of a Judaean province against all probability and sense, it lacks all evidence of any kind. It is a purely groundless and ad hoc conjecture. Remember that census is a sin according to Judaism. Remember what happened to David. |
Re: Quirinius' Census Is An Important Historical Marker For Jesus' Birth - But... by urahara(m): 10:22am On Jan 05, 2016 |
Luke and Matthew went through the stress of inventing the fables of Jesus birth just to fulfill what they thought to be a messianic prophecy and they ended up with contradictory and historically false stories |
Re: Quirinius' Census Is An Important Historical Marker For Jesus' Birth - But... by PastorAIO: 10:57pm On Jan 05, 2016 |
OLAADEGBU: Can you give us any example in any text where protos is used in a similar construction to mean 'before'? Secondly, this statement: Quirinius actually ruled Syria on two separate occasions and there were actually two censuses taken. is a lie. Here is a list of the Roman governors of Syria. Propraetorial Imperial Legates of Roman Syria (27 BC to 135 AD)[edit] Date Governor 25 – 23 BC Marcus Terentius Varro 23 – 13 BC Marcus Vipsanius Agrippa 13/12 – 10/9 BC Marcus Titius 9 – 7/6 BC Gaius Sentius Saturninus 7/6 – 4 BC Publius Quinctilius Varus 4 – 1 BC Unknown[1] 1 BC – 4 AD Gaius Julius Caesar Vipsanianus 4 – 5 Lucius Volusius Saturninus 6 – 12 Publius Sulpicius Quirinius https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Roman_governors_of_Syria So since we have now established that all your possible explanations are all false, we are stuck with your origin problem, namely,
Which now brings me to a very important premise at the basis of your thinking and the thinking of the writer from got?s.
[size=15pt]What is the basis of this your doctrine of bible inerrancy? Where did you get it from? Any intelligent person must now tackle the issue of where this doctrine came from since it is obvious that in matter of History it is very far from inerrant. It is full of so many holes that a basket would hold more water.[/size] 3 Likes 2 Shares |
Re: Quirinius' Census Is An Important Historical Marker For Jesus' Birth - But... by OLAADEGBU(m): 2:40am On Jan 07, 2016 |
urahara: Isn't it true that a writer must be innocent until proven guilty. It seems that you have concluded that the writer was guilty of inventing fables before you embarked on your investigative journey. Have you got any archaeological or historical evidence to prove your point? |
Re: Quirinius' Census Is An Important Historical Marker For Jesus' Birth - But... by OLAADEGBU(m): 2:51am On Jan 07, 2016 |
PastorAIO: What are the two examples protos can be used in its context? PastorAIO: And you believe wikipedia to be your infallible truth regarding your historical facts, no? PastorAIO: When you say we who are the 'we' that established your false conclusions? Please speak for yourself. PastorAIO: I am a Christian and I believe that the original Word of God is infallible and inerrant, that is my presupposition. I believe Genesis 1:1 that says God created the heavens and the earth. If God says it and I believe it that settles it. I am looking for those who start on those premises and work their way back to the answer provided in the Scripture. God is not a man that He should lie. Let God be true and all men liars. |
Re: Quirinius' Census Is An Important Historical Marker For Jesus' Birth - But... by OLAADEGBU(m): 3:04am On Jan 07, 2016 |
OLAADEGBU: Here are some pertinent questions that sincere ardent bible scholars should get their teeth into before arriving at conclusions. (1) Was there a decree in the first place for a census around the time of Christ's birth? (2) If there was a decree of the emperor, would Galilee have been bound to comply? (3) Would Joseph and Mary have been required to return to Bethlehem to register? (4) Did Matthew and Luke contradict each other concerning the order of events surrounding the birth of Christ? (5) Explain to us how Quirinius could have been the governor of Syria when Jesus was born (prior to 4 BC), which was before Quirinius became governor of Syria around AD 6? These and many other intelligent questions should be asked when embarking on answering the OP. |
Re: Quirinius' Census Is An Important Historical Marker For Jesus' Birth - But... by PastorAIO: 2:27pm On Jan 07, 2016 |
OLAADEGBU: Well, they are already evidently guilty of historical inaccuracy. The question that remains is whether they were guilty of purposely invention of fables, or whether it was an unintentional error. Either explanation is damning for you because you claim that that bible is inerrant, first. and that the writers were inspired by the holy spirit, second. The bible is NOT inerrant. |
Re: Quirinius' Census Is An Important Historical Marker For Jesus' Birth - But... by PastorAIO: 2:36pm On Jan 07, 2016 |
OLAADEGBU: I don't know. and it is besides the point. Let me repeat my question. The question I asked you was if you could provide any example of protos being used to mean 'before' with that grammatical construction. And you believe wikipedia to be your infallible truth regarding your historical facts, no?No I don't. I don't believe any textual source can provide infallible truth. If you scroll down to the bottom of any wikipedia page you'll see references and footnotes that will direct you to more scholarly source if you desire to pursue the matter further. When you say we who are the 'we' that established your false conclusions? Please speak for yourself.Me, myself and I.
That conjunctive was very necessary cos it shows that you understand that being a Christian is not the same as worshipping the bible as infallible and inerrant despite the blatant inconstancy and outright historical falsehoods. So you are a christian AND and Bible worshipper. Well done. Out of curiosity, What is the basis for your Bible Worship? |
Re: Quirinius' Census Is An Important Historical Marker For Jesus' Birth - But... by OLAADEGBU(m): 2:08am On Jan 09, 2016 |
PastorAIO: If you were really sincere in your search for historical accuracy you would have given biblical writers the benefit of the doubt which is normally the case when dealing with other secular works but because of your prejudice against the Bible you and other skeptics assume the Bible is guilty before it is proven innocent. Why don't just say that you don't believe in the Word of God? PastorAIO: I expect critics and skeptics of the Bible to say that. That is why you are called an unbeliever. |
Re: Quirinius' Census Is An Important Historical Marker For Jesus' Birth - But... by OLAADEGBU(m): 2:23am On Jan 09, 2016 |
PastorAIO: So you don't know and you assert that Dr. Luke got it wrong? PastorAIO: Oh its just that you take your authority from wikipedia instead of the Bible? PastorAIO: PastorAIO: Just as I cannot separate you from your words I cannot separate God from His Words. Believing in the Word of God is believing in God you cannot be selective. Jesus is the living Word of God. The written Word of God is God breathed just as Jesus was born through a holy vessel. |
Re: Quirinius' Census Is An Important Historical Marker For Jesus' Birth - But... by OLAADEGBU(m): 2:24am On Jan 09, 2016 |
OLAADEGBU: Suggested answer for the questions above: https://answersingenesis.org/jesus-christ/birth/popular-conservative-journalist-attacks-genesis-and-jesus-birth/ |
Re: Quirinius' Census Is An Important Historical Marker For Jesus' Birth - But... by urahara(m): 9:28am On Jan 09, 2016 |
OLAADEGBU: As you see Muslims too have this presuppositions. If the Quran says Allah created the heavens and the earth that settles it for them. They are looking for those who start on those premises and work their way to the answer provided in the Quran. They believe that Allah is not a man that he should lie. They also say that let Allah be true and all men be liars 1 Like |
Re: Quirinius' Census Is An Important Historical Marker For Jesus' Birth - But... by urahara(m): 9:45am On Jan 09, 2016 |
OLAADEGBU: Actually when dealing with other secular works I don't give them the benefit of doubt and no sceptic (that I know of) has a prejudice against the Bible. If you were to give religious works the benefit of doubt I would be a Muslim a Christian a Buddhist and a Hindu today. Say today I just saw a girl who has 6 heads and breathes out fire and is 450 feet tall and lift a mountain with her tongue or if I say I saw Uchiha Madara and sponge Bob fighting in my house would you give me the benefit of doubt. No. For the same reason I can't give religious texts benefit of doubt because extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Quirinius' Census Is An Important Historical Marker For Jesus' Birth - But... by urahara(m): 10:03am On Jan 09, 2016 |
OLAADEGBU: Protos as used in Context The passage says hautê apographê prôtê egeneto hêgemoneuontos tês Syrias Kyrêniou , or with interlinear translation, hautê (this) apographê(census) prôtê[the] (first) egeneto (happened to be) hêgemoneuontos [while] (governing) tês Syrias(Syria) Kyrêniou [was] (Quirinius). The correct word order, in English, is "this happened to be the first census while Quirinius was governing Syria." This is very straightforward, and all translations render it in such a manner. Nevertheless, what is usually offered in support of a "reinterpretation" of the word is the fact that when prôtos can be rendered "before" it is followed by a noun in the genitive (the genitive of comparison), and in this passage the entire clause hêgemoneuontos tês Syrias Kyrêniou is in the genitive. But this does not work grammatically. The word hêgemoneuontos is not a noun, but a present participle (e.g. "jogging," "saying," "filing," hence "ruling" in the genitive case with a subject (Kyrêniou ) also in the genitive. |
Re: Quirinius' Census Is An Important Historical Marker For Jesus' Birth - But... by OLAADEGBU(m): 4:38pm On Jan 20, 2016 |
OLAADEGBU: Here is a scholarly article that answers all the pertinent questions a sincere seeker should be asking. Popular Conservative Journalist Attacks Genesis and the Birth of Christ |
Re: Quirinius' Census Is An Important Historical Marker For Jesus' Birth - But... by urahara(m): 4:23pm On Apr 28, 2016 |
OLAADEGBU: No matter how badly u wish this were true no roman official ever governed twive |
Re: Quirinius' Census Is An Important Historical Marker For Jesus' Birth - But... by johnydon22(m): 5:11pm On Apr 28, 2016 |
PastorAIO: This thread is a very good case study to the outright dishonesty in Christian apologetics. He first of all concluded on an answer before embarking on an enquiry, using belief as a foundation for an enquiry how can you ever expect that to be truthful? He first established the bible as an inerrant source therefore can never be mistaken … (using his belief this time as a basis) All his deductions therefore must never contradict that that belief of biblical inerrancy. Like he did above discarding a possible conclusion just because it would then mar his belief in biblical inerrancy. so you see, he is not looking for a truthful answer but rather an answer that will not contradict the biblical position which in fact was the source being questioned here.. since the bible is inerrant, why question it at all then? He is not trying to reach a truthful deduction because he already concluded on what his answer must be uncaring whether it is true or not. He rather is ok with what he wants to believe, what feels good to him rather than honestly open mindedly enquire to reach a truthful deduction. That is stark dishonesty needed to protect the alleged words of an all knowing God... I shudder at this.. 8 Likes 6 Shares |
Re: Quirinius' Census Is An Important Historical Marker For Jesus' Birth - But... by OLAADEGBU(m): 4:30pm On Apr 30, 2016 |
OLAADEGBU: Conclusion The Bible is the Word of God. It was written by men who were inspired and moved by God to write what they did (2 Timothy 3:16–17; 2 Peter 1:21). Since God cannot lie, then His Word, in its original manuscripts, cannot be in error. Hundreds of millions of people have staked their eternal destiny on the claims of the Bible, and countless scholars have studied it throughout their lifetimes and come away believing it to be the inspired, inerrant, and infallible Word of God. This should cause critics and journalists like Andrew Bolt to be more careful in their research rather than attacking the Bible's truthfulness and flippantly charging it with error. I would encourage Mr. Bolt and others who set out to ridicule the Bible to spend some time reading the Bible and checking to see if maybe, just maybe, some Christians in the past two thousand years have ever taken the time to address these so-called contradictions. The fact is that Christians have been successfully defending their faith and God's Word for nearly two millennia. These supposed contradictions can be explained when one takes the time to actually study the Bible and see what it does or doesn't say about these issues. |
Re: Quirinius' Census Is An Important Historical Marker For Jesus' Birth - But... by urahara(m): 4:44pm On Apr 30, 2016 |
OLAADEGBU: |
Re: Quirinius' Census Is An Important Historical Marker For Jesus' Birth - But... by urahara(m): 4:45pm On Apr 30, 2016 |
OLAADEGBU: |
Re: Quirinius' Census Is An Important Historical Marker For Jesus' Birth - But... by Nobody: 5:45pm On Apr 30, 2016 |
johnydon22: Johnnydon22. The only person on NL whose opinions I would actually pay to read. The OP on the other hand is one of the most tunnel-visioned, hackneyed regurgitator of Christian apologetic semantic jiggery-pokery on NL. 2 Likes 2 Shares |
Re: Quirinius' Census Is An Important Historical Marker For Jesus' Birth - But... by urahara(m): 5:50pm On Apr 30, 2016 |
Sarassin: Gaskiya ne 1 Like |
Re: Quirinius' Census Is An Important Historical Marker For Jesus' Birth - But... by johnydon22(m): 5:52pm On Apr 30, 2016 |
Sarassin: You flatter me my boss.... bolded words: truer words has never been spoken 2 Likes 2 Shares |
Re: Quirinius' Census Is An Important Historical Marker For Jesus' Birth - But... by OLAADEGBU(m): 11:28am On May 14, 2016 |
Sarassin: That is just your personal depraved opinion, you have no facts to buttress your point. |
Re: Quirinius' Census Is An Important Historical Marker For Jesus' Birth - But... by johnydon22(m): 11:55am On May 14, 2016 |
OLAADEGBU: None needed this thread is enough to buttress his point 1 Like 1 Share |
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