FOLYKAZE:


You missed my points.

I didnt say anywhere that Eledumare is in the same level with Irunmole. What I said is Irunmoles too are Gods. Just like the Egungun and Ori are Gods. This makes Orisha system a polytheistic religion as against monotheistic which lawani is claiming.

I even claimed Eledumare is supreme to all. However, my hierachy is base on and the steps it take before it reaches Eledumare. One praises Ori, Ori praises Egungun. Egungun praises Orisha while Orishas praises Eledumare.

In the morning, Babalawo will praise Ori, ori will praise Ifa, Ifa will praise Eledumare.

Awo yin Ifa, Ifa yin Olodumare.

I still haven't grasped egungun and its relevance in Yoruba religion.

Egungun as a system was instituted by Alaafin Sango in rememberance of Oranmiyan. Egungun's concept is to remember dead ancestors or dead relatives.

How does one praise Ori and Ori goes to praise Egungun when Ori precedes Egungun as far as existence goes?

Ori supersedes Orisa as well.

Ori is next to Olodumare.

It is the Ori that picks whatever Orisa that suits it.

I do not necessarily see where Egungun comes in, really.

9jacrip:


Awo yin Ifa, Ifa yin Olodumare.

I still haven't grasped egungun and its relevance in Yoruba religion.

Egungun as a system was instituted by Alaafin Sango in rememberance of Oranmiyan. Egungun's concept is to remember dead ancestors or dead relatives.

How does one praise Ori and Ori goes to praise Egungun when Ori precedes Egungun as far as existence goes?

Ori supersedes Orisa as well.

Ori is next to Olodumare.

It is the Ori that picks whatever Orisa that suits it.

I do not necessarily see where Egungun comes in, really.

Ori picks Orisha for what? For Orisha to serve it or for it to serve Orisha for blessing and more protection?

From what I learnt actually, One praise Ori while Ori praise Egungun. This is not and I did not say Awo praise Ifa while Ifa praise Egungun. I said awo praise Ifa, ifa praise Olodumare. But when one praise Ori, ori praise egungun while egungun praise Orisa and Orisa praise Eledumare.

Ori yeye ni gbe omo. . .Ori yeye is Egungun.

A father Ori is praised for his heir to guild and favour them in their journey in earth.

I have only two words..heart warming

Why did we abandon this for those two alien and demonic religion...? Why?

FOLYKAZE:


Ori picks Orisha for what? For Orisha to serve it or for it to serve Orisha for blessing and more protection?

From what I learnt actually, One praise Ori while Ori praise Egungun. This is not and I did not say Awo praise Ifa while Ifa praise Egungun. I said awo praise Ifa, ifa praise Olodumare. But when one praise Ori, ori praise egungun while egungun praise Orisa and Orisa praise Eledumare.

Ori yeye ni gbe omo. . .Ori yeye is Egungun.

A father Ori is praised for his heir to guild and favour them in their journey in earth.

By default, everybody belongs to Obatala until you then decide to pick or through Ifa you figure out what Orisa suits you but before this, your Ori is next to Olodumare.

Ori eni ni a ba bo, a ba fi Orisa sile. I'm sure you've heard that.

As for Egungun, how about towns where Egungun plays little to no role like Ife? (I'm sure there are other towns).

Keep in mind it has been Olodumare - Ori - Orisa from inception till Sango introduced Egungun. Except your version of Egungun is not the costume wearing town parading type.

I never said you mentioned Ifa praises Egungun. I only translated what you said to Yoruba 'Awo yin Ifa, Ifa yin Olodumare'.

When you praise Ori, it praises Olodumare.

When you praise Orisa, it praises Olodumare.

Likewise when you pray to or make ritual propitiation (ori bibo) to do Ori, it takes it to the Olodumare not to the Egungun, same way when you pray to Orisa, it takes it to the Olodumare.
(The former is known to be much more potent and faster than etutu, ebo riru, oogun, aseje or any other thing.)

Ori picks Orisa because in each Odu contains each person's journey (ups and downs) through life (which makes up one's Ori) and in each Odu an Orisa played or was the dramatist personae - hence, the Ori picks an Orisa in order that the owner of the Ori may live like - do the etutu, wear the colours, eat the types of food, marry the type of wife etc like the Orisa in this Odu did.

In a nutshell, Ori picks an Orisa to enable the owner of the Ori wade through life with ease/guidance not for the Ori to worship the Orisa.

My brothers, I think it is better to leave these things for Authentic awos to come and clarify for us otherwise we'll just be arguing back and forth like protestants/catholic, picking verses here and there and ignoring others and making up other concepts when it suits us. In the end everything will just be a farce.

9jacrip:

By default, everybody belongs to Obatala until you then decide to pick or through Ifa you figure out what Orisa suits you but before this, your Ori is next to Olodumare.
Ori eni ni a ba bo, a ba fi Orisa sile. I'm sure you've heard that.
As for Egungun, how about towns where Egungun plays little to no role like Ife? (I'm sure there are other towns).
Keep in mind it has been Olodumare - Ori - Orisa from inception till Sango introduced Egungun. Except your version of Egungun is not the costume wearing town parading type.
I never said you mentioned Ifa praises Egungun. I only translated what you said to Yoruba 'Awo yin Ifa, Ifa yin Olodumare'.
When you praise Ori, it praises Olodumare.
When you praise Orisa, it praises Olodumare.
Likewise when you pray to or make ritual propitiation (ori bibo) to do Ori, it takes it to the Olodumare not to the Egungun, same way when you pray to Orisa, it takes it to the Olodumare.
(The former is known to be much more potent and faster than etutu, ebo riru, oogun, aseje or any other thing.)
Ori picks Orisa because in each Odu contains each person's journey (ups and downs) through life (which makes up one's Ori) and in each Odu an Orisa played or was the dramatist personae - hence, the Ori picks an Orisa in order that the owner of the Ori may live like - do the etutu, wear the colours, eat the types of food, marry the type of wife etc like the Orisa in this Odu did.
In a nutshell, Ori picks an Orisa to enable the owner of the Ori wade through life with ease/guidance not for the Ori to worship the Orisa.

FOLYKAZE:


Ori picks Orisha for what? For Orisha to serve it or for it to serve Orisha for blessing and more protection?

From what I learnt actually, One praise Ori while Ori praise Egungun. This is not and I did not say Awo praise Ifa while Ifa praise Egungun. I said awo praise Ifa, ifa praise Olodumare. But when one praise Ori, ori praise egungun while egungun praise Orisa and Orisa praise Eledumare.

Ori yeye ni gbe omo. . .Ori yeye is Egungun.

A father Ori is praised for his heir to guild and favour them in their journey in earth.

lawani:

The word for God is Olodumare. In Igbo it is Chukwuabiama, Benin Osanobua, Hausa Ubangiji all are thesame person

you working so hard to drive home this monotheism thing.

What do you call Orisa? if you were to translate that word to a single word in english? or the Igbo Alusi?

9jacrip:



By default, everybody belongs to Obatala until you then decide to pick or through Ifa you figure out what Orisa suits you but before this, your Ori is next to Olodumare.

Ori eni ni a ba bo, a ba fi Orisa sile. I'm sure you've heard that.

As for Egungun, how about towns where Egungun plays little to no role like Ife? (I'm sure there are other towns).

Keep in mind it has been Olodumare - Ori - Orisa from inception till Sango introduced Egungun. Except your version of Egungun is not the costume wearing town parading type.

I never said you mentioned Ifa praises Egungun. I only translated what you said to Yoruba 'Awo yin Ifa, Ifa yin Olodumare'.

When you praise Ori, it praises Olodumare.

When you praise Orisa, it praises Olodumare.

Likewise when you pray to or make ritual propitiation (ori bibo) to do Ori, it takes it to the Olodumare not to the Egungun, same way when you pray to Orisa, it takes it to the Olodumare.
(The former is known to be much more potent and faster than etutu, ebo riru, oogun, aseje or any other thing.)

Ori picks Orisa because in each Odu contains each person's journey (ups and downs) through life (which makes up one's Ori) and in each Odu an Orisa played or was the dramatist personae - hence, the Ori picks an Orisa in order that the owner of the Ori may live like - do the etutu, wear the colours, eat the types of food, marry the type of wife etc like the Orisa in this Odu did.

In a nutshell, Ori picks an Orisa to enable the owner of the Ori wade through life with ease/guidance not for the Ori to worship the Orisa.

You have answered my question to some extent but I am not agreeing with larger part of your reply. True Orisha guides one through his life journey.

On the first note, we do not belong to Obatala. True, Obatala made the body but Ori is made by Ajala and from there transfered to Eledumare abode where it choose it destiny while on it knee.

Ori is made by Ajala. Tradition had it that Ajala is a drunkard and a cronic debtor. I dont know where you get this Ori is next to Eledumare. How is Ori next to Eledumare? In what sense is Ori eni close to Eledumare? Do you mean in the sense relentless support it gives to person?

Ori eni la ba bo comes in play because Ori stands firm with one in every condition while Orisha do not. So in the right sense, one needs to go for that which stand firm with us rather than go after that which support one within a space of time and condition. Esu will not bless one without sacrificing to it but Ori eni will always be there for us. Same goes with Charm (Ogun). Charm is there for trouble times but Ori serve us for everytime time. This does not mean we should disregard charm because it is there for some period of time and condition.

Another adage of the Yoruba is Orisha bi Iya eni ko si. Iya gives conditionless support to her child. Iya is there in the time of pains and trouble, joy and happiness. ko ni gbo ekun omo re ki o ma tati were. This cannot be said of Orisha not because they cant give more support than Iya but they do base on condition.

Eegun is the custom attire (eku eegun) but Egungun is more than clothing ceremony you are reffering to here. Egungun is a contiual living spirit (Eleda) or Ori of one parent. When condition warrant, Awo would ask a person to appeal to his parents Ori for blessing. In the case where the parent is alive, he will be asked to appeals to his Ori for the sake of his heir. This is what we call Ogungun here.

Orisha ti o gbe ni bi Ori osi. Ori is to this world as Orisha is to the spirit world. Ori has to appeal or praise Orisha before it can guide us. Orisha will not just be picked like robot but appeal must be made to it before it journey with us. The appeal is done by Ori

[size=38pt]OP YOU DESERVE TO BBE WHIP.

DONT EVER DARE BRING DISGUSTING MONOTHEISM INTO TOLERANT PLURALISTIC POLYTHEISM.

MANY HAVE TRIED BEFORE AND MANY HAVE FAILED MISERABLY. IF YOU KNOW WHO IN TALKING ABOUT.[/size]

FOLYKAZE:


You missed my points.

I didnt say anywhere that Eledumare is in the same level with Irunmole. What I said is Irunmoles too are Gods. Just like the Egungun and Ori are Gods. This makes Orisha system a polytheistic religion as against monotheistic which lawani is claiming.

I even claimed Eledumare is supreme to all. However, my hierachy is base on and the steps it take before it reaches Eledumare. One praises Ori, Ori praises Egungun. Egungun praises Orisha while Orishas praises Eledumare.

In the morning, Babalawo will praise Ori, ori will praise Ifa, Ifa will praise Eledumare.

In Abrahamic religions,especially Judaism, the God is fidgety and running after people for worship. In Christianity and Islam, the God is not only fidgety and reactionary but also violent and sadistic for burning people in hell for unbelief. In Ifa, the God is the onlooking father of all trying desperately to see us through, guide us, show us secrets like a father and that God is not fidgety neither is he agitated and he takes no sacrifice from anyone. Once you take sacrifice or DEMAND worship, you are a deity, hence orisas, eeguns and etc are all deities and not God. God in Yoruba thought is not god, there is only one God who asks for neither sacrifice nor worship or bribe. Orisa, eegun and etc are not gods, not all English words can be translated to Yoruba and vice versa. Orisa are notable people while Eeguns are ancestors, ori is yourself, then there are other natural things trees, rivers, ocean, mountains, forest and etc all deified and are deities but they are not God. God is Olodumare. Thanks.

lawani:


In Abrahamic religions,especially Judaism, the God is fidgety and running after people for worship. In Christianity and Islam, the God is not only fidgety and reactionary but also violent and sadistic for burning people in hell for unbelief. In Ifa, the God is the onlooking father of all trying desperately to see us through, guide us, show us secrets like a father and that God is not fidgety neither is he agitated and he takes no sacrifice from anyone. Once you take sacrifice or DEMAND worship, you are a deity, hence orisas, eeguns and etc are all deities and not God. God in Yoruba thought is not god, there is only one God who asks for neither sacrifice nor worship or bribe. Orisa, eegun and etc are not gods, not all English words can be translated to Yoruba and vice versa. Orisa are notable people while Eeguns are ancestors, ori is yourself, then there are other natural things trees, rivers, ocean, mountains, forest and etc all deified and are deities but they are not God. God is Olodumare. Thanks.

to you Deity is not God right?

lawani:


In Abrahamic religions,especially Judaism, the God is fidgety and running after people for worship. In Christianity and Islam, the God is not only fidgety and reactionary but also violent and sadistic for burning people in hell for unbelief. In Ifa, the God is the onlooking father of all trying desperately to see us through, guide us, show us secrets like a father and that God is not fidgety neither is he agitated and he takes no sacrifice from anyone. Once you take sacrifice or DEMAND worship, you are a deity, hence orisas, eeguns and etc are all deities and not God. God in Yoruba thought is not god, there is only one God who asks for neither sacrifice nor worship or bribe. Orisa, eegun and etc are not gods, not all English words can be translated to Yoruba and vice versa. Orisa are notable people while Eeguns are ancestors, ori is yourself, then there are other natural things trees, rivers, ocean, mountains, forest and etc all deified and are deities but they are not God. God is Olodumare. Thanks.

You mean like God is the ultimate creator and everything else is created from orisha to the rocks etc. And all of creation can be sacrificed to, ie can be fed, given ebo. While no one can give ebo to Eledumare. Eledumare is therefore a different order of being from the orisha. You make the distinction by calling Eledumare God and the Orisa deities.

Am I correct?

PastorAIO:


You mean like God is the ultimate creator and everything else is created from orisha to the rocks etc. And all of creation can be sacrificed to, ie can be fed, given ebo. While no one can give ebo to Eledumare. Eledumare is therefore a different order of being from the orisha. You make the distinction by calling Eledumare God and the Orisa deities.

Am I correct?

No sir. That is not the belief of our ancestors. That is Islam. To the Yoruba, Olodumare does nothing by himself but all the Ashe belongs to him. He does nothing by himself, even creation, all done by associates and subordinates. He rules in council with 400 co irunmales, totalling 401 with himself.

The Islamic concept is of no use since it can not answer the question of who created the ultimate creator who has no helper. As far as we know, nothing at all can be done without helpers and as imperfect as this world is, it remains probably a reflection of the other world which may be the real thing.

Olodumare is the Olu of Ogotun, the owner of all Ashe, the holder of the most exalted position (Iba o!).

FOLYKAZE:


to you Deity is not God right?

If the President needs to be bribed or praised before rising to his or her responsibilities, that can't be the President but a 419 you are dealing with, posturing as the President. A deity demanding worship is not God but a deity.

so where did the Irunmole from? Were they not created too?

lawani:


No sir. That is not the belief of our ancestors. That is Islam. To the Yoruba, Olodumare does nothing by himself but all the Ashe belongs to him. He does nothing by himself, even creation, all done by associates and subordinates. He rules in council with 400 co irunmales, totalling 401 with himself.

The Islamic concept is of no use since it can not answer the question of who created the ultimate creator who has no helper. As far as we know, nothing at all can be done without helpers and as imperfect as this world is, it remains probably a reflection of the other world which may be the real thing.

Olodumare is the Olu of Ogotun, the owner of all Ashe, the holder of the most exalted position (Iba o!).

PastorAIO:
so where did the Irunmole from? Were they not created too?

That is the dilemma of the atheist. It is why many will never accept the God concept in whatever form. If you use the Muslim Allah or the Christian Yahweh, that same question will not be satisfactorily answered. We don't have all the answers yet.

It should also be the headache of Olodumare and his people and not ours. We have to stop at a junction. The answer to that question will be remarkable. Our own matter that we are made up of is insignificant in the mix. Please read up about dark energy and dark matter. I believe there are dark beings too because if there is dark matter than there must be dark beings made from that dark matter.

lawani:


In Abrahamic religions,especially Judaism, the God is fidgety and running after people for worship. In Christianity and Islam, the God is not only fidgety and reactionary but also violent and sadistic for burning people in hell for unbelief. In Ifa, the God is the onlooking father of all trying desperately to see us through, guide us, show us secrets like a father and that God is not fidgety neither is he agitated and he takes no sacrifice from anyone. Once you take sacrifice or DEMAND worship, you are a deity, hence orisas, eeguns and etc are all deities and not God. God in Yoruba thought is not god, there is only one God who asks for neither sacrifice nor worship or bribe. Orisa, eegun and etc are not gods, not all English words can be translated to Yoruba and vice versa. Orisa are notable people while Eeguns are ancestors, ori is yourself, then there are other natural things trees, rivers, ocean, mountains, forest and etc all deified and are deities but they are not God. God is Olodumare. Thanks.

Ah! you are misunderstanding english words here. Deity and God are the same thing

deity from French - Deus. and God from Germanic "Gott"

macof:



Ah! you are misunderstanding english words here. Deity and God are the same thing

deity from French - Deus. and God from Germanic "Gott"

Translation is hard between any two languages. There are concepts in one language that don't exist in another but what we need to know is that Olodumare of the Yoruba is not a deity. Why? Because it is never deified.

FOLYKAZE:


You have answered my question to some extent but I am not agreeing with larger part of your reply. True Orisha guides one through his life journey.

On the first note, we do not belong to Obatala. True, Obatala made the body but Ori is made by Ajala and from there transfered to Eledumare abode where it choose it destiny while on it knee.

Ori is made by Ajala. Tradition had it that Ajala is a drunkard and a cronic debtor. I dont know where you get this Ori is next to Eledumare. How is Ori next to Eledumare? In what sense is Ori eni close to Eledumare? Do you mean in the sense relentless support it gives to person?

Ori eni la ba bo comes in play because Ori stands firm with one in every condition while Orisha do not. So in the right sense, one needs to go for that which stand firm with us rather than go after that which support one within a space of time and condition. Esu will not bless one without sacrificing to it but Ori eni will always be there for us. Same goes with Charm (Ogun). Charm is there for trouble times but Ori serve us for everytime time. This does not mean we should disregard charm because it is there for some period of time and condition.

Another adage of the Yoruba is Orisha bi Iya eni ko si. Iya gives conditionless support to her child. Iya is there in the time of pains and trouble, joy and happiness. ko ni gbo ekun omo re ki o ma tati were. This cannot be said of Orisha not because they cant give more support than Iya but they do base on condition.

Eegun is the custom attire (eku eegun) but Egungun is more than clothing ceremony you are reffering to here. Egungun is a contiual living spirit (Eleda) or Ori of one parent. When condition warrant, Awo would ask a person to appeal to his parents Ori for blessing. In the case where the parent is alive, he will be asked to appeals to his Ori for the sake of his heir. This is what we call Ogungun here.

Orisha ti o gbe ni bi Ori osi. Ori is to this world as Orisha is to the spirit world. Ori has to appeal or praise Orisha before it can guide us. Orisha will not just be picked like robot but appeal must be made to it before it journey with us. The appeal is done by Ori

Apparently, you do not know much about Obatala and his role when it comes to Orisa and humans.

In order not to bore us, make I itemize as I dey type from phone.

1. I can remember we once discussee Ajala/Obatala and Ori. From my querries, I have discovered Ajala is the same as Obatala in the Odu Ifa where Ajala appeared. Why he was referred to Ajala there is what I do not know but Ajala/Obatala are the same person. Obatala, oni amo rere tin mori oni/eni or omo tuntun, jo wa ba wa tun ori wa se. While Ifa is the eleri ipin, eni ton tun ori eni ti ko sun won se. I believe you have awos around you and within your reach, query them further on who owns each person's head by default and who moulds heads.

2. You already answered your question. In as much as the almighty in Yoruba system does not interfere in human dealings and activities, he is the only other figure who stands by a person no matter what apart from one's Ori. An Orisa can be manipulated against you even if you're its descendant.

3. After my ifa initiation, I was at my compound to learn one or two things from my little cousin and while he was tutoring he mentioned if my ikin was in my room and I said no and he said it was important that I have it in my room because after Olodumare, one's Ori is next, followed by parents' iponri (which you referred as Egungun) and followed by one's ikin.

4. I had a dream about his late father and we consulted his Ifa over it. Ifa said we needed to propitiate our fathers and this required killing chicken and dripping the blood on our right toe. (This is the egungun you mentioned and this is how it is practiced in Ife not the clothed dance troupe as introduced by Oyo).

5. I know it is improper for a Babalawo but since there's not much I can refer you to, I'll share this post by an awo with you and I hope it sheds light on what we are discussing.

Let's start with the Yoruba concept of Ori. While its literal meaning is "head," there is also a more esoteric meaning for the followers of the Orisa tradition. Ori is in fact the closest equivalent in Orisa theology to one's soul, as evidenced most clearly by the idea that Ori chooses one's destiny. When one's Ori is in Orun, awaiting to make its descent to Earth, it goes before Olodumare to receive its vocation and pick the destiny it (Ori) will fulfill on Earth with Orunmila as witness (Eleri Ipin -- witness to creation). These two steps are included in the seven overall steps taken by Ori before its descent to Earth, as written in the Odu Ogbe 'yonu: 1. having d'afa performed by heavenly Awo, 2. performing prescribed ebo, 3. receiving one's vocation and ewoo, 4. getting to the gate of heaven, 5. digging one's "ditch of losses," 6. filling that ditch with one's gains, and finally 7. choosing one's destiny and Ori at the house of Ajala (Obatala Alamo ti i mo -- Obatala, the clay owner that molds destiny). For more on this process see: "The Healing Power of Sacrifice" by Chief Yemi Elebuibon.

During the process of choosing one's destiny at Ajala's castle, one has the opportunity to pick from a variety of pottery heads, but not all are equal, some are deformed, some are fragile and weak, some are half baked, and some are well made. It is quite difficult to discern the differences in heads, and we are told to look to Ifa for guidance in our choice before and eventually afterwards on Earth (since Orunmila was witness, Ifa can reveal the deficiencies and prescribe sacrifices/actions to strengthen one's Ori and fulfill one's destiny). This idea is reflected in Yoruba culture's use of the words Oloriire and Olori Buburu (owner of fortunate Ori, owner of bad Ori).

After incarnating on Earth, one's destiny is forgotten, and our lives are spent attempting to find and fulfill it while on Earth. There doesn't appear to be specific reference to descending and ascending levels of destiny, but there is an assumption that one will choose a destiny that is befitting of the ideals of Iwa pele and Iwa rere (cool character, gentle character) which can be seen in the Odu Irete Ofun. It can also be safely assumed that picking a destiny that is positive and fulfills many of the ideals set forth in Odu Ifa (helping those less fortunate, helping one's community, bettering oneself, etc) is best.

This assumption also plays a part in how one becomes revered Egun and eventually Orisa. Unbeknownst to many in the diaspora, Orisa and Isheshe are an expanding corpus of beings. Through one's actions, one may become a revered Egun and, after many years of being worshipped, may become Orisa. Demonstrating the positive choices of one's Ori can raise it even in death, so that even Orisa have Ori (thus linking the words Ori and Orisa). It also clarifies the traditional Yoruba view of Ori as being elevated with respect to any Orisa, because even Orisa have Ori, and their Ori guide them. Ori may be foreign to many in the diaspora, but it's important to understand that, through making poor choices, our Ori can in fact trump even the best laid plans and guidance offered to us by Orisa.

The odu Irete Ofun says:
Atefun-tefun
Dia fun Okanlenirino Irunmole
Won nlo sode Apere
Atefun-tefun eyin oni
Awo Ori lo dia fun Ori
Ori nlo sode Apere
Won ni ki won sakaale ebo ni sise
Ori nikan0nikan ni nbe leyin ti nsebo
Ebo Ori waa da ladaju
Nje Ori gbona j'Orisa
Ori ma gbona j'Orisa
Ori nikan-nikan lo ko won l'Apeere
Ko si Orisa to to nii gbe
Leyin Ori eni
Ori gbona j'Orisa

He who prints the chalk on the back of crocodile
He was the Awo who cast Ifa for the 401 Irunmole
When going to Apere (a state of perfection)
He who prints the chalk on the back of crocodile
The Awo of Ori who cast Ifa for Ori
When Ori was going to Apere
They were all advised to offer sacrifice
Only Ori responded by offering the sacrifice
The sacrifice of Ori had been abundantly rewarded
Ori is higher then all Orisa (deities)
It is only Ori which reaches Apere, the perfect state
No other Orisa (deity) can give support
Outside of one's Ori
Ori is higher then all Orisa (deities)

This Odu not only solidifies the understanding that Ori is a separate being, but that Ori is the highest of all Irunmole, and the one who remembered to perform sacrifice for its salvation. There are two other important things to note in this Odu. First, it introduces the idea of the perfect state and the notion that attaining the perfect state is something that Ori and all beings strive towards. This is a critically important concept that is sometimes forgotten in the diaspora. The second, is that it introduces the idea that the Ori is the one thing that can support one. My interpretation is that, while Orisa may be able to affect things, ultimately, one's Ori is the most important thing to have working in support of the goal of achieving the state of perfection. Without its support, even Orisa can't save you.

We further see evidence of Ori's place in theology in the Odu Ogunda Oworin:

Okun kun nore nore
Osa kun legb-lebge
Ol'Owa nr'Owa
Alasan nr'Asan
Agba imole wo ehun oro, o ri pe ko sunwon
O gi irunmu d'imu yayaya
O gi irungbon di aya pen-pen-pen
D'ifa fun isheshe merin
Ti won nse olori oro n'Ife
"Nje, kinni a baa bo ni Ifa?"
Isheshe ni a ba bo, ki a to bo Orisa
Baba eni ni isheshe eni
Iya eni ni isheshe eni
Ori eni ni isheshe eni
Ikin eni ni isheshe eni
Odumare ni Isheshe
Isheshe, mo juba ki nto s'ebo


The ocean is full
The lake is full
Travelers proceed to Owa (a town)
Travelers journey to Asan (a town; in other words, people travel to their destinations)
An elder considers the everlasting effect of a statement and realizes that it is bad
He covers his nose with his mustache
He covers his chest with his beard
Divined for the four primordial energies
Leaders of the sacred cult in Ile Ife (the ancient tradition, reference to Ogboni)
"O! who should we worship?"
The primordial forces should be appeased first before appeasing the Orisa
One's father is one's primordial force
One's mother is one's primordial force
One's Ori is one's primordial force
One's Ikin Ifa is one's primordial force
God is a primordial force
Primordial forces, I give my reverence before I perform ebo

Again we see that Ori is placed above even Orisa and ancient customs dictate that one praise first their Isheshe (mother/father (one's egun), Ori, Ikin (Ifa), and God), for without them we don't exist. Further, we have to acknowledge that Ori is a force that is reborn as we try to fulfill our destiny, hopefully learning with each incarnation, as is shown by the Yoruba names Babtunde/Yeyetunde (father/mother returns) given to those children who through divination are seen to be reincarnated ancestors.

Seeing this evidence, it appears that Ori is:

An entity in and of itself
That which chooses our destiny
That which chooses what is to become our Earthly head
That to which we must pray for guidance
An entity which is so closely associated with us/our being/body, that you can't in fact separate the two, though clearly it is also something that transcends traditional ideas of "consciousness"
An entity that we worship
An entity that transcends our worldly selves and travels back and forth to Orun.

lawani:

Translation is hard between any two languages. There are concepts in one language that don't exist in another but what we need to know is that Olodumare of the Yoruba is not a deity. Why? Because it is never deified.

I see!
But Irunmole aren't deified

macof:

I see!
But Irunmole aren't deified

Orisas, Eegun and everything in nature is deified but Olodumare is too busy or too objective to take notice of any deification or manipulation. Olodumare stands behind honesty and truth. I believe no one knows all the names of the 400 irunmale ruling in council with Olodumare not to talk of deifying them. I am not an expert in these things but I only use my common sense.

PastorAIO:


Meeeennnhh! You dey fall my hand for here o! Olodumare nor dey the same level with Oosa. Lai Lai.

Egungun can never be supreme to Ori, neither can Orisha. You should check out Eji Ogbe. Ori da mi re. Ori puts every thing and every orisha in it's place. They all challenged Ori and Ori threw them down.

If Olodumare is not an orisa, who/what then is orisa oke?

sonmvayina:
Why did we abandon this for those two alien and demonic religion...? Why?

Puzzles me too.

Ghost01:
If Olodumare is not an orisa, who/what then is orisa oke?

Orisha Oke is Orisa of mountains and Highlands.

Orisa Oke is worshipped in Ibadan, for example, which is surrounded by hills.

PastorAIO:



Orisha Oke is Orisa of mountains and Highlands.

Orisa Oke is worshipped in Ibadan, for example, which is surrounded by hills.

The Jewish deity was also originally an orisa oke. This is seen in the Psalms 'I will lift up my eyes on to the hills from whence cometh my help' and the deification of mountains in early Judaism.

PastorAIO:



Orisha Oke is Orisa of mountains and Highlands.

Orisa Oke is worshipped in Ibadan, for example, which is surrounded by hills.

And the orisa oke other people also appeal too every now and then is the orisa of mountains? To my knowledge, every mountain or hill that has any significance in a people's history in Yorubaland has its own specific deity with a specific name, e.g. Olosunta and Orole for the hills that bear the two names in Ikere-Ekiti. Orisa oke is often used interchangeably with olu orun to refer to the lord/deity/god in charge of oke (sky) - olodumare.

Ghost01:
And the orisa oke other people also appeal too every now and then is the orisa of mountains? To my knowledge, every mountain or hill that has any significance in a people's history in Yorubaland has its own specific deity with a specific name, e.g. Olosunta and Orole for the hills that bear the two names in Ikere-Ekiti. Orisa oke is often used interchangeably with olu orun to refer to the lord/deity/god in charge of oke (sky) - olodumare.

The chief priest of Okebadan is called Aboke. It should be clear that Olodumare is not on thesame pedestal as Ogun, Sango and etc. They all use ase which belongs to Olodumare. You have ashe too that belongs to Olodumare. Everyone has and everything as well, originating from Olodumare. So Olodumare is the supreme being in Yoruba thought, not an orisa. The Itsekiri use that word to mean God but the Yoruba do not.

If you have heard Lagbaja's tribute to Fela where he said 'Abami ti dorisa Yeeparipa...'. That is the Yoruba belief about Orisa. Anyone can become orisa but no one can become Olodumare.

Fear fear make yoruba most religious. Fear of what? Why should human fear his own imagination?

what is the yoruba word for "God" Capital G, God is Oluwa(Lord); Olorun(God); Olodumare(Almighty)

orisa37:
Fear fear make yoruba most religious. Fear of what? Why should human fear his own imagination?

I have already replied the guy trying to derail the thread. Do any group in Nigeria have prominent people like Prof Wande Abimbola, Yemi Elebuibon, Dr Solarin, Fela Anikulapo kuti and etc who are not followers of Abrahamic religions? Even the ones who are followers are not really followers. You can not describe Owa Obokun Aromolaran as a Christian for instance despite since he worships with Christians as well as Muslims also with traditionalists, thesame is true for people like Pa Peter Fatomilola. Which group in Nigeria still have their wits about them to such an extent?

"IFA" is a well established Religion of equal Powers, Influence and Recognition like Judaism, Christianity and Islam. It uses Rosary, like in J.C.I.(Judaism, Christianity and Islam), to divine the Wishes of Lord-God-Almighty-(Oluwa-Olorun-Olodumare). The Messiah, Christ, HolySon is the ODU-IWA; CHRIST; CHARACTER AND HOLY SPIRIT IN US FOR ALL TRANSFORMATION. So no problem so far. All we need now is to rewrite the Yoruba Bible of Arch Bishop Ajayi Crowther and reconcile it with "IFA" Religion. The Universities of Ilorin and of Ife can do this forThe Sovereign States of Western Nigeria.

orisa37:
"IFA" is a well established Religion of equal Powers, Influence and Recognition like Judaism, Christianity and Islam. It uses Rosary, like in J.C.I.(Judaism, Christianity and Islam), to divine the Wishes of Lord-God-Almighty-(Oluwa-Olorun-Olodumare). The Messiah, Christ, HolySon is the ODU-IWA; CHRIST; CHARACTER AND HOLY SPIRIT IN US FOR ALL TRANSFORMATION. So no problem so far. All we need now is to rewrite the Yoruba Bible of Arch Bishop Ajayi Crowther and reconcile it with "IFA" Religion. The Universities of Ilorin and of Ife can do this forThe Sovereign States of Western Nigeria.

There is no basis for comparison with Christianity and Islam that is against divination, look down on others, have a know it all attitude and etc. Ifa is comparable to tarot reading, astrology and other pattern readings. It is only often more advanced. It is incomparable to spiritual practices reducing God to the status of a sadistic and violent being, a demon. Nobody died for our future or past sins in Aborisha practice. Iwa pele is your only saviour. No one is annointed, if you want to be an Awo, a respected monk, it comes only through long years of practice and study.