fyneguy:

I think someone here is just a rabblerouser who also finds it difficult to process information properly.

It is wrong- Ok- what's the alternative?- em em em


Na wa o

I second that!!

MUZBO:

@kobojunkie, you don't read between the lines. The koko of my posts is confronting govt. aint smart!

Why would you, knowing full well that you want things to change. What is government? By the people for the people? Or By the people OVER the people?

MUZBO:

Nigerians do exactly what you tell them not to do.

I am a Nigerian. I do obey the law. Do I then DESERVE still to be treated like an animal? Do Americans, Europeans, South Africans, Ghanians, Cameroonians who break the law DESERVE to be treated like animals?


 

MUZBO:

How many times have you crossed an expressway with the pedestrian bridge just meters away?

NEVER!!! Because I have never had enough spine to cross the express road when there is functioning pedestrian bridge right next to me to use. I remember I used to work at Ojota. The pedestrian bridge was terrible back then, with holes in it. But I still used it as much as I could because I have seen what crossing the express way directly could do to a persons body.

 

MUZBO:


Or how many times have you seen people fail to use the protective helmets govt is trying to enforce? And you talk 'humane'!

Well, if people fail to wear protective helmet, does that then mean government has the right to condemn them all as animals? I still don’t understand how you can state this is the way it ought to be. Why do we have LAWS and PUNISHMENTS for breaking those laws? Why does government have ability to fine people? To prosecute them? Where does treating them like animals come in??
Would you treat your own kids, wife, sisters, mother like an animal for not listening to you? For breaking your own rules? Does Nature treat us like animals when we break natures laws? I mean where does this whole idea of what people DESERVE such treatment come from? I mentioned the BA example earlier. The same Nigerians go abroad and EXPECT TO BE treated like HUMANS even when they break the law out there but for some reason once these very people get back to NIGERIA, it is to be automatically assumed they become ANIMALS the minute the break Nigerians laws?

 

MUZBO:

Again when you compare 2 situations please show that you comprehend. How can you compare Guant. Bay criminals with computer village traders? The eyes of the world is on G bay ok! In other words next time a policeman wants to whip you for going against the law again, just tell him that you have someone video-tapping the event and see if he'll continue. A recording is the only proof that can get him punished without which a judge will throw your case out. All the good 'humane' treatment you see at G bay is for show so people don't complain. You also have to agree respect for human rights is better now than during Tinubu where, though I don't know about Police, LASTMA was terrible. The Lagos jungle is getting urbanised so join the evolution.

OK WAIT!!! So, a Guantanamo bay prisoner DOES NOT DESERVE to be treated like an animal because the eyes of the world are on him but a computer village trader DESERVES to be treated like an animal because of Nigerian policemen? HUH? Double HUH?? HUH What does that even mean now
Respect is better now is reason not to speak out about the non-respect that continues to exist? Human rights is better now is reason not to confront government on the human rights issues that continue to exists? WHERE IN THE WORLD ARE YOU FROM??


 

MUZBO:

@lacicrisp, if you want to know the police well just commit a crime and get arrested without complaint. I'm sure they'd treat you with respect even give you a good clean cell. On the other hand if you resist you'll get whipped and they'd throw you in with a homosexual thug. You think you know the police more than everyone?

That does not make sense dude~!!!

lacicrips:

They are always in the wrong my dear. I wish you could just come down to Nigeria, and experience some of these things.

All hail the man who know tomorrow!
So the next time someone is arrested for armed robbery, we should ignore the facts, and simply release him 'cos the NPF are always wrong.
But then why wait, rather we should go and let all prisoners out of our prisons, as the NPF was always wrong in arresting them.

@kobojunkie, You dissected my last post but you apparently still don't understand jack. Listen: 1. Wear your helmets on a bike- people sit on a bike holding the helmet in hand. Isn't that blatant disregard for law?
2. You keep hearing of water boarding going on at G bay but have you even seen a video footage before?- you won't because it is not humane so they show the inmates planting trees and playing basketball to deceive people like you.
3. It was the traders that resisted that were whipped not innocent ones. Get this fact right o because it is the blindest part of your argument.
4. We can't get an immediate turnaround with our human rights record. We'll have to go from endemic cases to sporadic cases to very rare cases and this could take years. You can speak against it all you want. It is a slow process.
The blacks in US fought for years against Police brutality and racial injustice- they largely won after many years and many lives but note this : that same US is a 'free' country but Nigeria is not.
Don't just keep your eyes open, look!

Why cant the govt employ people (and pay them) to sweep the place at night instead of accusing the traders of not sweeping? Are they at the Computer village to sweep  or is a cleaner not different from a Sales person or computer engineer?
@AloyEmeka
Lastpage, i don't think it's appropriate for the govt to pay for sweepers in a market where majority of the traders pay no taxes. is it appropriate to use workers taxes to pay for their services?. rather, i will suggest the govt hire cleaners and impose levies on them if they can't come together to pay for cleaning. Traders in Onitsha contribute maintenance fees that pays for night security, cleaning and all other official duties. If Fashola provides such services for them, then the banks should request for the govt to send cleaners to their banks on tax payers money.  My agro is the method they used to close the market. No human rights in Nigeria, police or army can stop you at ogba and wallop you till they get tired and you still thank them on top because they didn't shoot you. is that right?

What am saying is this:
There is division of labour. Everybody has a job, some are sweepers, some are teachers, some are mechanics, some are bankers, e.t.c
, and l am working under the assumption/impression that the guys at the Village MUST pay tax to the govt. If they are not paying now, the govt should make effort to document them for tax purposes.
Now, if l am not a cleaner, l should not clean but rather pay a cleaner for such services, same goes if l am not a mechanic.
The govt should provides cleaner/sweepers, as they do with street cleaners in other parts of Lagos mainland, (its actually the responsibility of the local councils to employ cleaners for the environment) to clean the place regularly (thereby providing employment for some) while the beneficiaries of such cleaning activity pay for it either directly or through their taxation.
Jack of all trades they say, Master of none.
Some "services" are the responsibility of govt to provide (like electricity) while it is the duty of the citizens to pay (through tax or directly through a levy) for such services. Same goes for emptying our garbage bins.

On the issue of flogging with Horse-whip and using Tasser guns,
Tassers are designed to "immobilize" someone resisting arrest. Though some over-reacting officers might abuse its usage.
Horse-whip is horse-whip. Those that gave it that name are intelligent enough, based on its intended function, not to call it "human-whip",
of-course, humans have their own whips too, its called a cane (though the act of caning an errand child is becoming obsolete , proper upbringing might make it unnecessary for anyone to inflict corporal punishment on their children, except in exceptional circumstance).
Caning is/should be "corrective" in application except for some sadist parents that derive joy in inflicting pain on little children 

On the other hand, Horse-whip is designed for inflicting pain (we shouldn't correct our children or adults, with the sole intention of inflicting pain, should we?). Used to be used to force the horse to run faster but even now, Horses are no longer "Horse-whipped" to make them   run faster. A short, light tapping accessory is used!  

For folks who think it is okay to use horse-whip on Traders because they did not do environmental sanitation, well, ,
the only thing l can say of such people is that "you're who you say you are".
If their self-esteem and self prestige is very low, (something to do with upbringing and the environment under which they grew up), there is nothing "lastpage" can do about it.
I still feel it is wrong to use Horse-whip on humans

BTW:

As for you "Biina", l will ignore the last line of your comments towards me.
That should let you know that l am a very generous person and l am not intentionally insulting.
But be careful, (l am well grounded in "gutter language" if l need to dig it out),
next time might be very nasty!

@kobojunkie, one more thing. You said: 'does nature treat us like animals when we break natures rules?' - tell that to those that were punished by that South Asian tsunami for breaking natures' environmental laws on air pollution- oh, you can't because most of them are dead, killed like animals actually! May they RIP. They were not even breaking natures' rules directly. I'll tell you again: when you compare 2 situations, show that you comprehend!

Nice input Kobo, Aloy, Lastpage and other sane posters. Unfortunately, people that reason like you are in the minority in the jungle called Nigeria.  I am not sure why people whine about the deplorable state of the retrogressive jungle  when the causes are more ubiquitous than Peugeot 504.

MUZBO:

@kobojunkie, You dissected my last post but you apparently still don't understand jack.

Lol . . .  I know telling your opponent he/she does not know what you know, is  some “Nigerian tactic” some employ to help convince themselves they have it all figured out, but dude, please consider that you may be the one here who is possibly clueless.

MUZBO:

Listen: 1. Wear your helmets on a bike- people sit on a bike holding the helmet in hand. Isn't that blatant disregard for law?

Disregard for law, YES. REASON why you ought to be treated lower than Animals are? NO.

Why? Because LAWS are meant to be checks, and when people disregard these checks, they face the consequence/punishment for their actions. Problem is the consequences DOES NOT include their being treated like animals or beaten to an inch of their life.
If you have ever read the laws in the books, in Lagos, you would figure that the harsh treatment IS NOT the actual punishment depicted in the books for such or most any crime. NO WHERE.

MUZBO:

2. You keep hearing of water boarding going on at G bay but have you even seen a video footage before?- you won't because it is not humane so they show the inmates planting trees and playing basketball to deceive people like you.

Uuuummm. . . .  the WORLD saw footage of what water boarding is about and that is why the world cried FOUL. I am not sure what world you live in but GUANATAMO BAY is no longer SECRET. The current admin is doing all it can to close it down because of cries from people around the world that the treatment is inhumane. Even the already released GITMO prisoners are doing all they can to speak out in order than people can help make sure THAT NEVER HAPPENS AGAIN. Please check your facts.

MUZBO:

3. It was the traders that resisted that were whipped not innocent ones. Get this fact right o because it is the blindest part of your argument.

Actually, you don’t have that right considering
a) We are talking of a whole market being closed down here.
b) You cannot for a fact state that ONLY GUILTY TRADERS were whipped. So, this is not about MY FACTs but about you trying really hard to twist this one to say what the ARTICLE did not say.

MUZBO:

4. We can't get an immediate turnaround with our human rights record. We'll have to go from endemic cases to sporadic cases to very rare cases and this could take years. You can speak against it all you want. It is a slow process.
The blacks in US fought for years against Police brutality and racial injustice- they largely won after many years and many lives but note this : that same US is a 'free' country but Nigeria is not.
Don't just keep your eyes open, look!

So, because we cannot get an immediate turnaround is reason why we should NOT condemn the act of treating people like animals?  So the whole idea of attacking these issues one at a time is lost on you??
So, the blacks FOUGHT for many years, but in Nigeria’s case, Nigerians should only speak out but NOT FIGHT? What the heck?? Lol

I begin to wonder, from what you posted two responses ago, if you would feel the same way if these people had been ejected by Yar adua. I mean would you also say that treating people like animals is ok if Yar adua had been the one sending the police in to close down markets in Lagos and maybe in other parts of the country?

Our reporter reliably learnt that the armed Policemen freely used horsewhips on the recalcitrant traders especially the youths who attempted to prevent them from carrying out the order allegedly approved by Governor Babatunde Fashola of Lagos.

When they eventually complied, Daily Champion was told that the traders who had already displayed their wares for sale were forced to take refuge at the Awolowo and medical roads and other adjoining streets from where they hawked their goods.

The article only states that the police FREELY used HORSEWHIPS on recalcitrant traders and youths. Now this DOES NOT in any way imply that all those who resisted the closure were GUILTY. IF Mr. A was innocent, but B, C, D, E were guilty. It is understandable that Mr A would resist arrest and closure of his store. Does RESISTING and standing his ground make him an criminal, hence deserving of animal treatment ( I mean this is assuming we all agree that criminals should be treated as animals).

lastpage:

For folks who think it is okay to use horse-whip on Traders because they did not do environmental sanitation, well, ,
the only thing l can say of such people is that "you're who you say you are".
If their self-esteem and self prestige is very low, (something to do with upbringing and the environment under which they grew up), there is nothing "lastpage" can do about it.
I still feel it is wrong to use Horse-whip on humans

Why are you distorting the facts. The article states clearly that the police whipped those that resisted the close down of the market.
what would you have had the police do instead, pat them on the back, or scurry back to the station?
If you have a credible source with a contradicting account, then lets have it.

Nobody has said it is right for the police to whip anybody indiscriminately, but like anywhere else in the world, if you obstruct the enforcement of law, the police have the right to use appropriate force to deal with the hindrance, be it batons, horsewhips, tazers, or hollow point bullets.

As for the gutter language, you are free to express yourself in any manner you deem fit.

biina:

Why are you distorting the facts. The article states clearly that the police whipped those that resisted the close down of the market.
what would you have had the police do instead, pat them on the back, or scurry back to the station?

My point EXACTLY!!!! they have still not discussed what the police shoulda done. 

biina:

\
Nobody has said it is right for the police to whip anybody indiscriminately, but like anywhere else in the world, if you obstruct the enforcement of law, the police have the right to use appropriate force to deal with the hindrance, be it batons, horsewhips, tazers, or hollow point bullets.

Spot on again!!

Watch out for the next empty post from them

@kobojunkie, whether its a Nigerian tactic or not it is now fact that you don't understand jack. You've left Nigeria for too long! What is the meaning of recalcitrant?- unwilling to obey rules. Try being recalcitrant anywhere in the world and see if a gun butt wouldn't be used on your face. Then you can go to court with your plastic surgeon by your side afterwards.
You are just riding on the back of pity knowing anybody will condemn inhamane acts.
The water boarding footage you saw- was it on the G bay inmates or just an example from movies. My point anyway is they won't televise such inhamane acts but doesn't mean it doesn't occur.
My example with blacks doesn't read- its useless to protest against Police brutality(if they didn't will it stop?), but I still maintain and you know, we won't have a turnaround in one day. Police brutality usually doesn't come un-provoked. Check your records.
As you dissect this one, don't try to show I mean what I don't. The facts are clearly stated now: you refuse to obey law, you pay! And everyone knows even the innocent suffer in such cases and then they get the sincere apologies.

MUZBO:

@kobojunkie, whether its a Nigerian tactic or not it is now fact that you don't understand jack. You've left Nigeria for too long! What is the meaning of recalcitrant?- unwilling to obey rules. Try being recalcitrant anywhere in the world and see if a gun butt wouldn't be used on your face. Then you can go to court with your plastic surgeon by your side afterwards.

Sigh!!! From the dictionary

re•cal•ci•trant (ri kal′si trənt)
adjective
1. refusing to obey authority, custom, regulation, etc.; stubbornly defiant
2. hard to handle or deal with

now, go back and read what I posted. Is a recalcitrant person AUTOMATICALLY A GUILTY PERSON. YES OR NO!

MUZBO:

You are just riding on the back of pity knowing anybody will condemn inhamane acts.
The water boarding footage you saw- was it on the G bay inmates or just an example from movies. My point anyway is they won't televise such inhamane acts but doesn't mean it doesn't occur.
My example with blacks doesn't read- its useless to protest against Police brutality(if they didn't will it stop?), but I still maintain and you know, we won't have a turnaround in one day. Police brutality usually doesn't come un-provoked. Check your records.
As you dissect this one, don't try to show I mean what I don't. The facts are clearly stated now: you refuse to obey law, you pay! And everyone knows even the innocent suffer in such cases and then they get the sincere apologies.

You know what? Since you don’t know how to answer questions and have a knack for trying to go for the jugular of the person you are debating with instead of focusing on the subject, I bid you good day. I have tried my best but I see this is just going to go the way most debates go on here.

Kobojunkie:

Sigh!!! From the dictionary

re•cal•ci•trant (ri kal′si trənt)
adjective
1. refusing to obey authority, custom, regulation, etc.; stubbornly defiant
2. hard to handle or deal with

now, go back and read what I posted. Is a recalcitrant person AUTOMATICALLY A GUILTY PERSON. YES OR NO!

YES!! GUILTY!! When you refuse to obey the law u are guilty; even my 6yr old nephew knows that. . . jeeeeeze. . .

Kobojunkie:


You know what? Since you don’t know how to answer questions and have a knack for trying to go for the jugular of the person you are debating with instead of focusing on the subject, I bid you good day. I have tried my best but I see this is just going to go the way most debates go on here.

Lord!! now there can be space for the intelligent ones - who know how to answer focusing on the subject- to respond 

@kobojunkie, good day to you too. Still unbelievable that you said a Recalcitrant person is not automatically guilty. In case you plan a come-back as most recalcitrant people do then start by reacting to my post on nature then we'll take it from there.
@cabali, @biina and co.- nice work!
I'm outta here, hopefully.

.

.

I thank all folks on this thread, both "for" and "against".
We learn by doing "healthy" debates on issues.
I noticed we all condemn the use of "excessive force" on offenders.
The question, as l see it, lies in the DEFINITION and CONTEXT of that word.

I will put forward my position on these two phrases but will avoid the "big grammar" syndrome but rather use analogy to explain

1. Definition: for every offense, there are stipulated punishments/penalties. Punishments are not initiated or put in place to dehumanize or to be punitive, they are meant to CORRECT a negative behavior in a manner that the offender would "see" where he/she went wrong and adjust to desirable patterns.
compare this position with when an (your) 8yr old child offends; maybe he took money without permission (steal) and you need to spank her; some will use horse-whip, some smack and some use "verbal dress-down", some are known to cut the child's skin and put hot pepper! some will flog the child until they themselves are feeling tired!
You will agree with me that in at least one of this example, the punishment is excessive. That is how l see and define "excessive punishment" even when it is necessary.
Bottom-line is the "Punishment does not fit the crime and the offender can not learn 'the lesson' under such circumstance"

2. Context: Punishment can also be 'contextual' by looking at the circumstances surrounding the committing of the offense for which punishment is being dished-out.
Using the same example of an 8yr old child above, let us make two "assumptions" to put it into context:
(a) The child has not been fed the whole day, hungry and stole #20 to buy a plate of rice.
(b) The child was well fed and provided for but still stole the #20 and used it to buy Banga/knockout

In both cases, an offense has been committed: STEALING
There is a punishment for stealing but as a parent, (my view), the child in scenario (a) if punished, is actually facing "injustice" , and the "severity" of the punishment should be less, compared to child (b).
So, in dishing out punishment, you can "verbally tongue-lash" child (a) and let him know why stealing is wrong, bearing in mind that she was "driven to it", and thus the reduction in punishment.
Child (b) can be smacked and after-wards, sat down and calmly explained to, why she should not steal.

In both cases, the aim is NOT TO ALIENATE the child so that she can see REASON.
Punishment without making provision for the offender to see WHY she needs to be punished and why she needs to change her ways, as in this case (my hypothetical example), is called "Child -abuse".
That is why some feel most Nigerians abuse their children, not because we dont love them but because in most cases, the punishment is "excessive" and its the punishment, not the lesson that is emphasized.

This is how "Definition and Context" can be applied to those who were "disobedient of the law" at Computer village and the justification to use "HORSE-WHIP" on them. I hope l have been able to shed light on it.

By the way some punishment are deemed "primitive" and are thought to exhibit the animal instincts in humans!
Like putting Car-Tyre around the neck of a thief and roasting him alive! Aaaha, wetin?
__________________________________________________________________________________________

Quote from: lastpage on Yesterday at 12:33:21 AM
For folks who think it is okay to use horse-whip on Traders because they did not do environmental sanitation, well, ,
the only thing l can say of such people is that "you're who you say you are".
If their self-esteem and self prestige is very low, (something to do with upbringing and the environment under which they grew up), there is nothing "lastpage" can do about it.
I still feel it is wrong to use Horse-whip on humans

@Biina
Nobody has said it is right for the police to whip anybody indiscriminately, but like anywhere else in the world, if you obstruct the enforcement of law, the police have the right to use appropriate force to deal with the hindrance, be it batons, horsewhips, tazers, or hollow point bullets.

Name five developed countries where they still use HORSE-WHIP to flog protesting citizens whose means of livelihood is under threat and bear in mind that the "market" is situated in and among residential buildings (residents might protest closure of private property!)

@Biiina "As for the gutter language, you are free to express yourself in any manner you deem fit.

You're wrong, l am not free to express myself in gutter language, on a public forum.
As a matter of fact, the kind of upbringing my parents imparted in me while growing up, would not allow me do so, and l know it is wrong to do so.
Moreover, l would not "depreciate and degenerate" to that level, as a "thorough born and bred".
It is considered that only those who can not properly articulate their positions, in a discussion, result to foul language.

The importance of "maintaining decorum" in public discussions, can not be over-emphasized.
I salute you.

State should introduce travel tax. And any buses going from one state to another out of lagos catchment state. the people going on that trip should be tax. like if a person is going from lagos to enugu. lagos or other should collect 10% of the fee. but if the person is going from lagos to oyo state, because oyo state is in lagos catchment state, no tax.


state should introduce education fee for children who do not fall into thier catchment area. let me use edo state as example. every child who is going to school in edo state from ondo, kogi, delta, ogun, ekiti, kwara should not have to pay for school in edo state. while children from enugu, abia, ebonyi, cross river, benue should pay.

Another example is lagos. Children from lagos, ogun, ondo, oyo, osun, ekiti, delta, edo, etc should not have to pay school fee, while child from other state should pay. because of catchment area. It is a way to get more tax.

Spare part tax should be introduce, and 30% of spare part money should go to state
computer part tax should be introduce, and 30% of spare part money should go to state
electronics part tax should be introduce, and 30% of spare part money should go to state

like those in Alaba international market do not pay tax. why,

Lagos can introduce non catchment tax for people from state not in thier catchment state to pay 20% of thier income into lagos. So someone who is from kano state would pay non catchment tax, while someone from ondo or delta state which is in the lagos state catchment state would not pay that tax.

just some idea on my mind that fashola can think about.

Nice input Kobo, Aloy, Lastpage and other sane posters. Unfortunately, people that reason like you are in the minority in the jungle called Nigeria.  I am not sure why people whine about the deplorable state of the retrogressive jungle  when the causes are more ubiquitous than Peugeot 504. 

Same people will come here to whine anytime they get similar treatment from the force. No mind them o jare.

@lastpage
Developed countries have moved on from the cheap horsewhips to the more expensive, and effective 120,000 volts tasers. I can categorically tell you that the pain from a horsewhip is no where comparable to the nervous trauma of being shocked by ample current at 120,000 volts.

Agains you make reference to using horsdewhips on traders who didn't do environmental sanitation, and that is NOT the case.
(from the article) The horsewhips were used on people who tried to stop the policemen from closing the market.

I am quite fine with policemen using horsewhips on people who essentially break the law by trying to stop the police from enforcing the law.

BTW: I find interesting your partial emphasis of my earlier quote, excluding the part where I said 'you deem fit'. You brought up your knowledge of gutter language, and I simply said its use was at your discretion.

Aloy.Emeka:

Same people will come here to whine anytime they get similar treatment from the force. No mind them o jare.

Anyone that gets whipped for obstructing law enforcement got what they deserved. Its far from everyone that ever get whipped by the police deserve it.

@Aloy, who told you people 'll come here to whine if they get whipped by the police? Sure we can conclude now that you were whipped thats why you posted. Ah ha! The plot thickens. Sorry o.

@biina wat exactly is Ur point abi U re just out to argue.Have U been a victim to Police brutality?I ve xperienced sth similar,there was a case of sb confronting an soldier for visiting his galfriend.This soldier came back 4rm d barracks with a truckload of his coleagues to unleash terror on innocent nigerianz,even though d guy in question waz at large they beat & whisked evry male they saw on d street into thier truck dat day unfortunately my Uncle was one of those dat incur thier wrath my Dad's BP rose dat day cos he saw evrythin dat day.So biina stop insulting our sensibilities here with front & back arguement like U just want to argue and hear Ur own voice.Our police can't solve any suituation like what happened in ikeja without the use of violence,& pls stop dat crap abt traders resisting gun wielding policemen,come on U & I know they will shoot dat trader without qualmz,those traderz re not stupid to resist policemen dat came with gunz and stuf,abeg give them some credits.They don't deserve it.

Don't mind that guy. Until he gets the taste of their whip, he wouldn't know the pains.