...REPLY CONTINUATION

Also, Twelver Shias being the majority, on what census were they ever a majority? During and after the Fatimids, I'd assume the Ismailis are the majority (as they're mentioned a lot) and had a foothold in Africa and beyond. The Zaydis have a long and documented history in Yemen. The only 12er Shias in Iran were Qom and some villages. Bahrain is a tiny island with a tiny population. Iraq became 'shiasized' after the Safavids. Lebanon is majority Christian (and probably even more historically).
So how were they ever a majority, please I need clearer explanations on this.

this is a reinvention of history.

the Fatimid rule in Egypt was cut shorts by another tyrant, Salahuddin. are you limiting your imaginary "census" to a particular period? one expects population changes. and it is therefore wrong to assume on numbers.

Iraq was Shia way back to the days of Imam Ali's (as) rule in Kufah. how can you claim that Iraq became Shia after the Safavids? Allamah Hilli, who is from Iraq, was one of the Shia scholars from the Arab world who contributed to spreading and teaching Shia beliefs in Persia.

the same with Lebanon. search for the history of Islam by country. after the Islamic conquests, Lebanon was not christian majority. it was in fact Shia majority. that was limited by the Seljuk Turks conquests and the fatwas of Ibn Taymiyyah. the Shia of Lebanon were massacred. the biggest Sunni city in Lebanon (Tripoli, Lebanon's second capital city) was Shia before the raids by the Turks and the fatwas of Ibn Taymiyyah. and mind you, the spread of Shia Islam in Lebanon was not by the sword. Lebanese Shi'ites pride themselves that they accepted Islam, and converted from Christianity and Animist beliefs through Abu Dharr al-Ghifari (RA), the companion of the Prophet (s) and foremost loyalist of Imam Ali (as) and pioneer Shia.

Concerning this post:
The Hadith of the twelve Caliphs is an example of a “self-fulfilling prophecy”. Therefore, we must define what exactly is a self-fulfilling prophecy. We read:
A self-fulfilling prophecy is a prediction that, in being made, actually causes itself to become “true”.
(“Self-fulfilling prophecy”, Wikipedia)
To give an example of a self-fulfilling prophecy, we have the literary story of “Romulus and Remus”: according to legend, Romulus and Remus were in their childhood sentenced to death for fear of a prophecy that one day they would kill the king. However, Romulus and Remus escape death and later in life they hear stories of the prophecy; after hearing these prophecies, Romulus and Remus then realize that their destiny in life is to kill the king, and they then do exactly that.
In other words, a self-fulfilling prophecy is a statement which may sufficiently influence people in such a way that their reactions ultimately fulfill (or seem to fulfill) the prophecy.
When Shias knew of this prophecy, they then adjusted to it. So today, you deceive many Sunnis that this hadith goes in line with you methodology while in reality this hadith was by Ahl Sunnah in which you adjusted to. This as shown in a Shia book:
These and other traditions (Hadith) were spread in both Imamite and Zaydite circles…According to al-Saduq these traditions (Hadith) and others predicting the occurrence of the Ghayba were the main reason for the Imamite acceptance of the Ghayba and for their being satisfied that the series of the Imams should stop at the twelfth.
(The Occultation of the Twelfth Imam: A Historical Background, by Dr. Jassim M. Hussain, p.138)
In other words, the Imamah of the Imami Shia would not have ended at the number twelve had it not been for this Hadith of the twelve Caliphs found in mainstream Muslim books of Hadith. It was this Hadith which was one of the “main reasons” that caused the Shia to terminate the Imamah at the number twelve. So it's not a coincidence, you Shias base you beliefs solely on the books of Ahl Sunnah!! !!

the question is was there a successor to the Twelfth Imam (as) that the Shia do not accept? no. were there Shia who got confused at the way the Imamate halted at the 12th Imam? yes. this goes to show that the halt at the 12th Imam was not a human doing. it was not a case that people refused to believe in the son of the 12th Imam. there was no son, and no successor of the 12th Imam to follow. and the 11th Imam was succeeded by the 12th, and the 12th went in Ghaibah with signs and instructions left behind for his followers. we found the 12 Imams. we are not ashamed that our belief fulfills the prophecy of Muhammad (s). it is actually a source of pride to us. in your own case, you do not have 12 successors. your belief does not vindicate or fulfill the prophecy of Muhammad (s) but in fact belies his truthfulness by rejecting the 12 Imams (as). the Prophet (s) had made it easy for us by stating the number, and in our narrations even their names. do you expect all Muslims would be well informed on everything such as these? if the Narration of Ghadir Khumm and the declaration of Imam Ali (as) by the Prophet (as) as his first successor can be ignored and disregarded in a matter of months, do you blame people who lived three centuries later to know it all? in fact, there were Shia who wanted to turn over to the brother of the 11th Imam (as), but had no basis to do that. we came to realize the truth and accept it on the 12 Imams, while you have stubbornly refused. worse, you shamelessly bring up this hadith and start cherry pick for something you lack. you have over 30 caliphs, and not 12. had Sunnis have an alternative list of 12 successors, they hold on to,we then have a serious case to face and debate. but you dont even have 12! no alternative 12. you have 30 and more! today, you guys even have Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi as caliph. do you also add him to your cherry-picked list of your assumed "12"?

Now coming to the listing of this caliphs in which Ahl Sunnah defer, just as how you've asked “who are the twelve Caliphs” and then think you've made bone-breaker point(lol, according albaqir ). This is nothing particular or peculiar about our lack of certainty with regards to this one specific prophecy, but rather we are similarly uncertain about the bulk of the Prophet’s prophecies. In another Hadith, the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) has stated that a mujaddid (reviver of the faith) would appear after every century; if we ask the Sunni scholars to name who were all the mujaddideen of the Ummah throughout the centuries, we find that they will not be able to name them. In fact, there is no way that anybody can know for certain even a single of these mujaddideen, namely because to say something like that with absolute certainty would be speaking about the Unseen without knowledge from Allah, which is considered a sin.
Therefore, it is not fair for you to demand for us to say for certainty who the twelve Caliphs are, when in fact our doctrine necessitates that we cannot talk about this with certainty as it being a thing only Allah knows. The vagueness of the Prophet’s prophecy is not at all limited to this one particular Hadith but can be seen in many other Hadith, such as the prophecy about Gog and Magog. Throughout the ages, people have guessed as to who Gog and Magog refers to, some saying that it refers to the Turks while others saying it refers to the Mongols, some say Gog and Magog have already come, whereas others say that they are yet to come–but nobody knows with certainty.
Many of the prophecies of the Prophet (SAW) were vague and we can only guess at their exact meaning; such is the nature of prophecies. So when we Sunnis are vague with who are the twelve caliphs in the Hadith, we are vague with all the prophecies in general, because we do not wish to speak about the Unseen without knowledge. Allah warns in the Quran:
“Say: The things that my Lord has indeed forbidden are…saying things about Allah of which you have no knowledge.”
(Quran, 7:33)
And Allah warns against Dhann (conjecture), saying:
“But of that they have no knowledge: they merely conjecture!”
(Quran, 45:25)
And Allah says further:
“Most people are such that if you follow them they will lead you away from the right path, because they rely on conjecture only.”
(Quran, 6:116)
The truthful scholars of Sunni Islam can only therefore guess at who the twelve Caliphs are, and it should be understood that these are guesses at best; only deviants manipulate the Word of Allah claiming certainty.
So be careful brother! [/font]

i really dont understand what is vague about having 12 successors. you end up with over 30 and still counting and you want to tailor over 30 caliphs to be the same as having 12 caliphs till the end of time. the Prophet said, as already explained, that the religion will not cease to exist UNTIL there are 12 successors. the continuation of the religion in other words is with 12 caliphs. there is nothing vague about having 12 caliphs. it is not the same as having mujaddideen (reformers). the Prophet (s) said in every century there would be a reformer. he did not state who or how many. here we have a categorical 12.

in anyways, since it is vague to you, then why do you peddle it and try to guess who the 12 are from amongst 30 or more? why not simply keep silent and not try to give what you do not have? It was a Sunni who started this topic to go on the offensive. now you find yourself on the defensive.

^Some the ahadith in a clear presentation unlike the hushed up OP

1. Imam Ahmad records:

'Abd Allah - Shurayh b. Yunus - Umar b. Ubayd - Simak b. Harb - Jabir b. Samurah:

I heard the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, saying, "THERE WILL BE AFTER ME TWELVE AMIRS". Then he said something which I did not hear clearly. So I asked the one next to me, and he said, "All of them will be from Quraysh."

Sheik al-Ar'naut comments: It is Sahih hadith, and this chain is Hasan due to Simak.

Ref: {Musnad (Cairo: Muasassat Qurtubah) [annotator: Shuaib al-Ar'naut], vol. 5, p. 99, #20978}

2. Imam al-Tirmidhi says about the same hadith:

This hadith is Hasan Sahih

And Allamah al-Albani agrees: Sahih

Ref: {al-Jami al-Sahih Sunan al-Tirmidhi (Beirut: Dar Ihya al-Turath al-Arabi)[annotator: Muhammad Nasir din al-Albani], vol.4, p.501,#2223}

3. Imam Ahmad further records:

'Abd Allah (b. Ahmad) - my father (Ahmad b. Hanbal) - Mumal b. Isma'il - Hamad b. Salamah - Dawud b. Hind - al-Shu'bi - Jabir b. Samurah:

I heard the Prophet, peace be upon him, saying: "There will be FOR THIS UMMAH TWELVE KHALIFAHS."

Shaykh al-Arnaut says: Hadith Sahih

Ref: {Musnad (Cairo: Muasassat Qurtubah) [annotator: Shuaib al-Ar'naut], vol. 5, p. 106, #21051}

4. Imam Ahmad again documents:

'Abd Allah (b. Ahmad) - my father (Ahmad b. Hanbal) - Hashim - Zuhayr - Ziyad b. Khaythamah - al-Aswad b. Sa'id al-Hamdani - Jabir b. Samurah:

I heard the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, saying or the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, said:

"THERE WILL BE AFTER ME TWELVE KHALIFAHS, all of them from Quraysh."

Sheik al-Ar'naut comments: Hadith Sahih

Ref: {Musnad (Cairo: Muasassat Qurtubah) [annotator: Shuaib al-Ar'naut], vol. 5, p. 92, #20890}

5. Imam Muslim

‘Amir b. Sa’d b. Abi Waqqas: I sent a letter to Jabir b. Samurah through my servant, Nafi, to inform me of something he heard from the Messenger of Allah (s). So, he wrote in reply back to me: “I heard the Messenger of Allah (s) saying on a Friday, on the eve of the stoning of al-Aslami, saying:

‘The religion will never cease to stand until the establishment of the Hour or as long as THERE ARE TWELVES KHALIFAHS OVER YOU, all of them from Quraysh.’”

Ref: Sahih Muslim, Vol 3, p.1453, #1822 (10)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMab138w284

Salam Aleikom my brother ZhulFiqar, I just want to look critically at some points you raised and that of the brother Demmzy15.

it is very ironic that the Sunni scholars, as quoted above, would prepare a list of 12 from amongst their tens of caliphs to match to this hadith with no basis why they decide to choose those 12 names. some of them even include Yazeed, while others disregard him.

When the Olama of AhlSonnah mentioned this they based it on the hadith reference to the izza of Islam. As pointed earlier by the brother, it can't refer to the Shia Imams because only 2 had power as Caliphs. Concerning Yazeed, he might be on the list or not but whoever puts his name there has his reason.

then these same people would accuse the Shia of being the ones bringing up the names of their Twelve Imams to match up with the hadiths. yet, the Twelve Imams of the Shia are all from the Ahlul-Bayt (as) and were one after the other until the Twelfth. It was not a case that the Shia have countless, many or over 30 Imams from the Ahlul-Bayt (as) and amongst them, like Sunnis do with their over 30 caliphs, they pick a list of 12. it is not the fault of the Shia that the line of Imamate stopped with the Twelfth Imam. it was not by choice that that happened, but by divine decree as the hadith of the Prophet (s) had predicted. these 12 Imams from the Prophet's progeny were one after another. it was a succession of father to son, by Allah's decree as this verse explains better:

Did the Prophet name the 12? NO! So any list would be an assumption. All the Caliphs who ruled are to be taken into the consideration and analyzed critically. We know 6 of this caliphs of already; Abubakar(ra), Umar(ra), Uthman(ra), Aliy(ra), Hasan(ra) and Muawiyah(ra). This narration shed a little light on how the companions understood it, this was after the death of Uthman(ra):

Uqbah bin Aws al Sadusi narrated: Ibn Umar RA said: In this nation there shall be twelve Caliphs, Abu Bakr Al-Siddiq, you got his name right, Omar Al-Farouq as an iron horn you got his name right, Othman who is Zhu Nourain (the one with two lights) has been given two portions of mercy for he was innocently killed, you got his name right.
source: Takhreej Kitab al Sunnah 1154 by Sheikh al Albani.

"”Then he said something I did not hear, and my father said that he said: “All of them will be from Quraysh.”

carries a lot of suspicion. note the emphasis "and my father said that he said"!!! and why did he not hear that "something" and his father told him-not the Prophet- that "all of them will be from Quraysh". could the Prophet (s) have added that all of them would be from Banu Hashim or from his Ahlul-Bayt (as) which the narrator concealed or claimed or even actually "did not hear"? in any case, all the caliphs being from quraysh again does disservice to the Sunnis. there were many Sunni caliphs not from Quraysh. and the hadith also discredits the Sunni rulers of today who are not from Quraysh!!! yet still, the Sunni caliphs from Quraysh were still more than 12!!! this hadith is really a thorn to Sunnis. however they twist it, it backfires on them!!!

Brother we're not dealing on assumptions, if the hadith is 12 imams, then give us a factual proof not assumptions. If we are to say that the state of the religion is affected by how close the ruler is to the correct guidance, there is an exception stated in the Hadith that the condition of the religion will be good during the rule of the first twelve. The twelve Shia Imams never had authority, in fact they lived under takkiyah according to Rafdism.

the hadith states that Islam will prevail for as long as there are Twelve and this life will not end until those Twelve. it doesnt mean if the Twelve, or eleven of the Twelve, were all persecuted and martyred that means they failed. indeed Allah's promise to the prophets will be fulfilled with Imam Mahdi, the Twelfth, when he returns along with Prophet Jesus (as). so the argument that the hadith cant refer to the Twelve Imams of the Ahlul-Bayt (as) is very dishonest. the Twelve Imams of the Ahlul-Bayt (as) the Shia believe in were the fountain of Islamic Learning and Knowledge. the four imams of the four Sunni schools of thought benefitted immensely from the knowledge of Imam Ja'far Ibn Muhammad, al-Sadeq (as), the Sixth Imam. look at the dishonesty of Ibn Taymiyyah's word in saying that only Imam Ali Ibn Abi Talib (as) carried a sword. he disregarded Imam Hassan and Imam Hussain, both of whom fought with their father in the Battle of Siffin against Ibn Taymiyyah's role model Muawiyah Ibn Abi Sufyan. further, Imam Hussain (as) gallantly stood in Karbala against Yazeed (Ibn Taymiyyah and the Wahhabis/Salafists' role model) with his sword and sacrificed everything for the defense of Islam and ended up having his blood triumph over the sword of falsehood of Banu Umayyah.

You're getting it wrong brother, as we've maintained only 2 of your Imams were Caliphs. Your argument is that the Imams were Beacon of knowledge and spirituality, no one disproves that fact. When Talut (as) was ruling he was appointed a King while a Prophet (as) was alive in that rule. So the most knowledgeable doesn't have to be the ruler. This doesn't stop them from being Imams, but they're definitely not the Caliphs the Prophet talked about!

BeansAndBread:
Salam Aleikom my brother ZhulFiqar, I just want to look critically at some points you raised and that of the brother Demmzy15.

When the Olama of AhlSonnah mentioned this they based it on the hadith reference to the izza of Islam. As pointed earlier by the brother, it can't refer to the Shia Imams because only 2 had power as Caliphs. Concerning Yazeed, he might be on the list or not but whoever puts his name there has his reason.

* So according to your manhaj, whoever does not possess power is not a Caliph. Therefore good or evil person, once he possess power, he is qualified to be the Khalifah of the holy Prophet. This reasoning of Ahlu Sunnah accomodate Mu'awiyah and his cursed son Yazeed. I need to remind you on the following:

# Few of the Prophet of Allah [Musa, Dawud, Sulaiman and Muhammad] had power to rule over their communities. Majority of other Prophet were rejected and never had power to rule. Does that render their nubuwah/Risalah null and void? Allah revealed how Nabi Musa appointed his brother (Nabi Harun), a prophet, his Khalifah over his people while Musa went to Mount Sinai to meet his Lord. Quran clearly revealed the Bani Israel rejected and nearly killed Harun while they appointed Samiri as their leader instead. Does that nullified the Nubuwaship and Khilafah-ship of Nabi Harun?

# Zulfiqar qouted an hadith earlier where the holy Prophet (peace be upon him and his purified progeny) was reported to have said: "Hassan and Hussein are Imams whether they sit or stand". There is no doubt about the Sahih-ness of this hadith. Observe the following:

* Imam Hassan was the legitimate Khalifah after his father, Imam Ali. Mu'awiyah ibn Abi Sufyan rebelled against Imam Hassan and was ready to kill Muslims just to assume power. This was exactly what Mu'awiyah did by waging war against Imam Ali in the battle of Siffin. Thousands of believers died which include prominent companions of the Prophet on the side of Ali. Notable among them was Ammar ibn Yassir, whom the holy Prophet has told that a baghi (illegitimate, evil, rebel) group will killed while he will be calling them to Paradise and they will be calling him (Ammar) to hell-fire. Imam Hassan abdicate the Khilafah to power monger Mu'awiyah to avoid spilling the blood of believers.

In this vein, the two (Hassan and Mu'awiyah)'s Khilafahship can never be legitimate. Sunni approved the two. Shia rejected Mu'awiyah's khilafahship outrightly. He was a baghi.

# Imam Hussein vs The cursed Yazeed ibn Mu'awiyah. Which one of the two qualified to be your Imam/Caliph?

Yazeed was a Kafir, a drunkard, fornicator as his father was a baghi. There are too many Sahih Sunni ahadith confirming that. Be my guest by requesting please.

BeansAndBread:

Did the Prophet name the 12? NO! So any list would be an assumption. All the Caliphs who ruled are to be taken into the consideration and analyzed critically.

Absolutely your research is far from being completed, if at all there is one.

# Alhamdulillah, everyone agreed on the ahadith of ithna Asher (the Twelve khalifah or Amir or Imam as per different sigha) that ONLY 12 Khalifahs will rule this Ummah, and ALL of them are from Quraysh.

# Does the Prophet named them, the fact that Quraysh was a big clan with several families? Absolutely he did in the following hadith called "Hadith Khalifatain (hadith of two Caliphs)":

* Imam al-Fasawi (d. 277 H); Imam Ahmad (d. 241 H); Imam Ibn Abi Shaybah (d. 235 H); Imam Ibn Asim (d. 287), et al, all recorded HADITH KHALIFATAIN (narration of Two Caliphs).

# Allamah Nasir deen al-Albani copies:

The Messenger of Allah (s) said: "I am leaving behind over you TWO KHALIFAHS: the Book of Allah - a rope stretching between the heaven and the earth - and my offspring, my Ahl al-Bayt. Verily, both shall never separate from each other until they meet me at the Lake-Font."

Al-Albani comments: Sahih

Ref: {Sahih al-Jami al-Saghir wa Ziyadatuhu, vol. 1, p. 482, #2457}

* So, Prophet's offspring from his Ahl al-bayt are his designated Khalifah. Any "Khalifah" outside his offspring of Ahl al-Bayt are illegitimate. Only Imam Ali and Imam Hassan made the list in Sunni Khilafaship, being from the "offspring, Ahlulbayt of the Prophet". The rest of Sunni Khalifahs were NEVER from his itrah (offspring) or Ahlulbayt (household).

Hadith Khalifatain completely shed light on Hadith of twelve Khalifa; and of course hadith Khalifatain completely destroyed the whole theory of Sunni Khilafah system.

BeansAndBread:

We know 6 of this caliphs of already; Abubakar(ra), Umar(ra), Uthman(ra), Aliy(ra), Hasan(ra) and Muawiyah(ra). This narration shed a little light on how the companions understood it, this was after the death of Uthman(ra):

Uqbah bin Aws al Sadusi narrated: Ibn Umar RA said: In this nation there shall be twelve Caliphs, Abu Bakr Al-Siddiq, you got his name right, Omar Al-Farouq as an iron horn you got his name right, Othman who is Zhu Nourain (the one with two lights) has been given two portions of mercy for he was innocently killed, you got his name right.
source: Takhreej Kitab al Sunnah 1154 by Sheikh al Albani.

Obviously the narration above was NEVER from the Prophet so it is never a hujjah. Mind you Ibn Umar never accepted Ali as his Khalifah, he never paid allegiance to Imam Ali.

• THE FIRST KHALIFAH INTRODUCED BY THE PROPHET

# Imam Ibn Asim (d. 287) documents:

Ibn Abbas (ra) reports: "The Messenger of Allah (s) said to 'Ali: "You are to me of the STATUS of Harun to Musa, with the EXCEPTION that you are not a prophet. And you are MY KHALIFAH over every believer AFTER ME."

Dr. Al-Jawabirah says: Its chain is Hasan

Ref: {'Kitab al-Sunnah (Dar al-Sami'i li al-Nahr wa al-Tawhi) [annotator: Dr. Al-Jawabirah], vol. 1, p. 799 - 800, #1222}

# 'Allamah al-Albani also comments: Its chain is hasan (sound).

Ref: {Kitab Sunnah (al-Maktab al-Islami; 1st Edition, 1400H) [annotator: Nasir deen al-Albani], vol. 2, p. 565, #1188

# Imam al-Hakim (d. 403H) declares: This hadith has a SAHIH chain.
Ref: {Al-Mustadrak ala al-Sahihayn, vol. 3, p. 143, #4652}

* Imam al-Dhahabi (d. 748H) concurs with Imam al-Hakim: SAHIH (authentic).

# Allamah Ahmad Shakir: Its Chain is sahih
Ref: {Musnad Imam Ahmad (Dar alHadith, 1416H) [annotator: Ahmad Shakir] vol. 1, p. 331, #3062}

# Imam al-Busiri (d. 840H): A sahih chain
Ref: {Itihaf al-khiyarah al-Maharah bi Zawaid al-Masanid al-'Ashara, vol. 7, p. 184, #6630

NB: This hadith comes in 3 different Sighas. If you want all the three, in sha Allah you will be provided.

• SUNNI OBJECTION TO THIS SAHIH HADITH

While many Sunni scholars kept mute on this hadith, Sheik Ibn Taymiyyah declared it to be a fabricated hadith. Funnily, he gave NO reason.

Sheik al-Albani weirdly writes:

'As for what the Shi'ah mention about this hadith and others that the Prophet (s) said about 'Ali (r) that "he is my Khalifah after me", it is NOT authentic for many reasons. Rather, it is one of their (i.e Shi'is') several fabrications, which are exposed as lies by history. If truly the Prophet (s) had said it, it would have occurred as predicted, because it is revelation revealed, and Allah never betrays His promise."

Ref: {Silsilah al-Ahadith al-Sahihah wa Shayhun min Fiqhihah wa Fawaidihah, vol. 4, p. 344, #1750}

REBUTTALS:
1. Wasn't the Sheik al-Albani himself that authenticate the hadith? Why did he allowed himself to be baited by Ibn Taymiyyah's feeble card?

2. The caliber of al-Albani is too high to interpret that the hadith is Shi'a's "fabrication" DUE TO HISTORY because history says Abu Bakr was the Khalifah after the Prophet and not 'Ali!

* Does the Sheik not read the Qur'an about Nabi Musa and Nabi Harun?

(A). Allah reveal in Surah Nisa: 64 that Messengers are to be Obeyed. While the same Qur'an reveal that Musa and Harun were Messengers (sura Taha: 47). So can we conclude in line with the Sheik argument that all the Messengers (esp. Harun) that were rejected by their people were fake Prophets because their rejection tantamount to 'Allah's promise not been fulfilled?

(B). Interestingly, Nabi Harun was not only a Messenger but also a KHALIFAH of Nabi Musa. Qur'an says:
"Musa said to his brother, Harun: 'Be my KHALIFAH over my people." (Q. 7:142)

In Qur'an 20: 85, Allah reveal to Musa while he was away: "...We have tried your people in your absence, and al-Samiri has led them astray." and Qur'an 7: 150 revealed that when Musa came back angrily, he questioned his brother Harun the state of affair and his Khilafa-ship over them. Harun told him they nearly killed him while they usurped the position.

Going with al-Albani's interpretations, were the messengership and khalifa-ship of Harun false and invalid because history did not fulfill his appointment which no doubt was revelation?

No doubt! Seikh al-Albani knew this but its too hard for him to accept. Should he ever agree, his Aqeedah will definitely sink; hence, there is a need to attack and call Shi'a all sort of names. How many of his adherents also took this bait by following his interpretation!

• THE LAST IMAM INTRODUCED BY THE PROPHET

Sunni have already distributed the position of the 12 Khulafau meant FOR THIS UMMAH ("...fih adhihil ummah" - exact wording of one of the hadith). This make Mahdi an outsider in Sunni manhaj instead of being the last of the 12 Khulafau.

For brevity, here are two ahadith:

# Imam Ahmad (d. 241 H) documents:

Abu Sa'id al-Khudri: The Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, said: "The earth will be filled with oppression and injustice. Then, a man from my offspring will come out. He will rule by Kingdom for seven or nine years. He will fill the earth with equity and justice."

Sheik Shuaib al-Ar'naut states: It is a Sahih hadith...

Ref: Musnad (Cairo: Muasassat Qurtubah) [annotator: Shuaib al-Ar'naut], vol. 3, p.70, #11683

# Imam al-Hakim (d. 403H) documents:

Abu Sa'id al-Khudri "The Messenger of Allah (s) said, "The Mahdi will come out at the END of my Ummah."

Al-Hakim and Imam al-Dhahabi: Sahih

Ref: {Al-Mustadrak 'ala al-Sahihayn, vol. 4, p. 601, #8673}

NB: If hadith of the 12 Khalifahs clearly indicated there will be 12 Khalifahs FOR THIS UMMAH, and Prophet foretold al-Mahdi will come out at the END OF THE UMMAH, this automatically made al-Mahdi the twelfth Khalifah FOR THIS UMMAH. And he is from the offspring, the Ahlulbayt of the Prophet just like the First Imam, Ali ibn Abi Talib.

* The grand Salafi scholar, Shaykh Ibn Uthaymin (d. 1421H) writes in his commentary of al-'Aqidah al-Safariniyyah:

"His statement (the Last, Eloquent Imam): that is, from the signs of the Hour is the Imam. 'The Imam (here) refers to the one who leads mankind, not (just) in salat but in government. This Imam will be their supreme Imam, as the Khalifah.

He says that he (al-Mahdi) is the last, the last of whom? The last of the Imams, because there will be NO Imam after him. As such, he is the LAST of the Imams. His name is Muhammad, and his title is "the Mahdi", meaning the one who has been guided by Allah the Almighty. This is the Mahdi who will be SENT during the End of Time, when the earth will have been filled with injustice and oppression and the truth will have been forgotten... At that period, Allah the Almighty will SEND this man as a male Imam to reform THE CREATION and to restore the truth"

Ref: {Sharh al-'Aqidah al-Safariniyyah, p. 450-451}

BeansAndBread:

Brother we're not dealing on assumptions, if the hadith is 12 imams, then give us a factual proof not assumptions. .

# @underlined, the challenge is not quite clear. Are you saying the word "imam" is not used in the hadith or what? If that is your challenge, then obviously you do not take into consideration all the versions of the hadith. Prophet used three synonymous word: Khalifah, Amir and Imam.

For example, Imam Abu Ya'la (d. 307 H) documents:

Anas: The Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, said: "The IMAMS are from Quraysh"

Sheik Dr. Asad says: Its chain is Sahih

Ref: Musnad Abu Ya'la (Damascus: Dar al-Mamun Li al-Turath; 1st edition, 1404 H)[annotator: Dr. Husayn Salim Asad], vol. 6, p.321,#3644.

This hadith is actually mutawatir, as al-Hafiz (d. 852 H) stated:

"The hadith 'The Imams are from Quraysh' is recorded by al-Nasai from Anas, and al-Tabarani narrated it in al-Du'a, and al-Bazzar and al-Bayhaqi also narrated it, through several chains, from Anas. I say: I gathered its chains in a separate volume from forty Sahabah."

Ref: Ahmad b. Hajar al-Asqalani, Talkhis al-Habir (Dar al-Kutub al-'Illmiyyah; 1st edition, 1419 H), vol.4, p.116,#1730

# I have quoted on this very thread some of the ahadith of 12 Khalifahs where the word "AMIR" was used instead of "KHALIFAH". Observe another unifying factor in all these hadith whether Khalifah or Amir or Imam is used "...(all) FROM QURAYSH".

BeansAndBread:

If we are to say that the state of the religion is affected by how close the ruler is to the correct guidance, there is an exception stated in the Hadith that the condition of the religion will be good during the rule of the first twelve. The twelve Shia Imams never had authority, in fact they lived under takkiyah according to Rafdism.

# First this myth has been dealt with already. You do not need to assumed power to confirm the validity of your position. The onus lies with the Ummah to accept or reject your position but that does not nullify the appointed position and responsibility. Many Prophets were rejected by their Ummah yet their position and responsibility remain intact. The onus lies with their Ummah to accept or reject. According to the Quran, the responsibility of the Imams is stated:

"...And We appointed from among them Imams guiding by Our Command..."

Hadith Thaqalain confirmed this. For example, Imam al-Tirmidhi (d.279 H) documents:

Jabir ibn Abdullah al-Ansari reports:

I saw the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, during his Hajj on the Day of Arafat while he was on his camel, al-Qaswa, delivering a sermon, and I heard him saying: "O mankind! I have left behind over you that which if you hold fast to it you will NEVER go astray: the Book of Allah and my offspring, my Ahlulbayt."

* Tirmidhi says: And this hadith is Hasan gharib (I.e has a Hasan chain) from this route...

* Al-Albani comments: Sahih

Ref: al-Jami al-Sahih Sunan al-Tirmidhi (Beirut: Dar Ihya al-Turath al-Arabi)[annotator: Muhammad Nasir al-Din al-Albani], vol. 5, p.662,#3786

Emphasis on the underlined bolded statement in the hadith. Obviously the onus lies on the Ummah/Individual to adhere to the two weighty things or two Khalifah for ONLY that will guarantee their/his guidance from being astray. Just like Quran and the holy Prophet who were both for the guide of MANKIND but rejected by majority of man. While their guidanceship remain intact, the onus lies with people that failed to recognize and followed them.

BeansAndBread:

You're getting it wrong brother, as we've maintained only 2 of your Imams were Caliphs. Your argument is that the Imams were Beacon of knowledge and spirituality, no one disproves that fact. When Talut (as) was ruling he was appointed a King while a Prophet (as) was alive in that rule. So the most knowledgeable doesn't have to be the ruler. This doesn't stop them from being Imams, but they're definitely not the Caliphs the Prophet talked about!

.

Obviously you have deviated from your Sunni manhaj. Sheik Ibn Taymiyyah (d. 728 H) writes:

"In this report is the declaration of Umar among the Muhajirun and the Ansar that Abu Bakr was the sayyid of the Muslims and the best of them, and the most beloved of them to the Messenger of Allah. This is the reason for following him. So, he (Umar) said, "Rather we will follow you because you are our sayyid, and the best of us, and the most beloved of us to the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him." He wanted to make clear through it that: WHAT IS ORDAINED IS TO GIVE AUTHORITY TO THE BEST, and you are the best of us. So, we will follow you."

Ref: Minhaj al-Sunnah al-Nabawiyyah (Muasassat Qurtubah; 1st edition, 1406 H)[annotator: Dr. Muhammad Rashad Salim], vol.8, p.565

* The Best in terms of what? Obviously in terms of everything: Knowledge, spirituality, Taqwa etc. Interestingly, our dear Sheik even included "proximity to the Messenger of Allah" as part of the criteria of knowing the best.

# Put aside clear hadith of the Prophet where Ali was appointed as his immediate successor, the question is who was the best after the demise of the Prophet in terms of whatever criteria is laid down? NONE can be match of Ali al-Murtadha. This is open for debate if you wish.

# Who was the best between Hassan ibn Ali and Mu'awiyyah ibn Abi Sufyan during their time? And who was the best between al-Hussein ibn Ali and the cursed Yazeed ibn Mu'awiyah? Interestingly, Abdullah ibn Umar paid allegiance to Yazeed. So, who is your Imam, the accursed Yazeed or Imam Hussein ibn Ali?

Salam.

* So according to your manhaj, whoever does not possess power is not a Caliph. Therefore good or evil person, once he possess power, he is qualified to be the Khalifah of the holy Prophet. This reasoning of Ahlu Sunnah accomodate Mu'awiyah and his cursed son Yazeed. I need to remind you on the following:

The nature of the person ruling doesn't necessarily negate the Izza of the Ummah. Are you telling me because Genghis Khan was bloody tyrant then mongols were in a state of decline? Does it?

# Few of the Prophet of Allah [Musa, Dawud, Sulaiman and Muhammad] had power to rule over their communities. Majority of other Prophet were rejected and never had power to rule. Does that render their nubuwah/Risalah null and void? Allah revealed how Nabi Musa appointed his brother (Nabi Harun), a prophet, his Khalifah over his people while Musa went to Mount Sinai to meet his Lord. Quran clearly revealed the Bani Israel rejected and nearly killed Harun while they appointed Samiri as their leader instead. Does that nullified the Nubuwaship and Khilafah-ship of Nabi Harun?

Brother stop comparing the companions of Prophet Muhammad(saw) with that of Prophet Musa(as), here's the difference:
Sahabas

The Messenger has believed in what was revealed to him from his Lord, and [so have] the believers. All of them have believed in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers, [saying], "We make no distinction between any of His messengers." And they say, "We hear and we obey. [We seek] Your forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the [final] destination." Quran 2:285

Followers of Prophet Musa

And [recall] when We took your covenant and raised over you the mount, [saying], "Take what We have given you with determination and listen." They said [instead], "We hear and disobey." And their hearts absorbed [the worship of] the calf because of their disbelief. Say, "How wretched is that which your faith enjoins upon you, if you should be believers." Quran 2:93

# Zulfiqar qouted an hadith earlier where the holy Prophet (peace be upon him and his purified progeny) was reported to have said: "Hassan and Hussein are Imams whether they sit or stand". There is no doubt about the Sahih-ness of this hadith. Observe the following:

* Imam Hassan was the legitimate Khalifah after his father, Imam Ali. Mu'awiyah ibn Abi Sufyan rebelled against Imam Hassan and was ready to kill Muslims just to assume power. This was exactly what Mu'awiyah did by waging war against Imam Ali in the battle of Siffin. Thousands of believers died which include prominent companions of the Prophet on the side of Ali. Notable among them was Ammar ibn Yassir, whom the holy Prophet has told that a baghi (illegitimate, evil, rebel) group will killed while he will be calling them to Paradise and they will be calling him (Ammar) to hell-fire. Imam Hassan abdicate the Khilafah to power monger Mu'awiyah to avoid spilling the blood of believers.

In this vein, the two (Hassan and Mu'awiyah)'s Khilafahship can never be legitimate. Sunni approved the two. Shia rejected Mu'awiyah's khilafahship outrightly. He was a baghi.

# Imam Hussein vs The cursed Yazeed ibn Mu'awiyah. Which one of the two qualified to be your Imam/Caliph?

Yazeed was a Kafir, a drunkard, fornicator as his father was a baghi. There are too many Sahih Sunni ahadith confirming that. Be my guest by requesting please.

Still doesn't change the fact among all the 12 imams proclaimed only 2 were Caliphs. They had no power!

Absolutely your research is far from being completed, if at all there is one.

If the Prophet meant Ali and his offspring, he would have stated explicitly Banu Hashim or Banu Talib but he stated Banu Quraysh. It'll be better if you stop implying what the hadith never implied!

As stated here:

Nahjul Balagha, SERMON 91:

When people decided to Swear allegiance at Amir al-mu'minin's hand after the murder of Uthman, Ali said:
"Leave me and seek someone else. We are facing a matter which has (several) faces and colors, which neither hearts can stand nor intelligence can accept. Clouds are hovering over the sky, and faces are not discernible. You should know that if I respond to you, I would lead you as I know and would not care about whatever [anyone else] may say. If you leave me, then I am the same as you are. It is possible I would listen to and obey whosoever you make in charge of your affairs. I am better for you as a counsellor than as chief."

Why did Ali (ra) first refuse to be Caliph when his people tried to nominate him? It's right there in the sacred collection of Ali's sermons. Would Ali (ra) refuse the task if it was something that was DEMANDED by Allah and his prophet? This would be declaring Ali (ra) a Faasiq (rebel against Allah) for shirking his duty to be Caliph.

# @underlined, the challenge is not quite clear. Are you saying the word "imam" is not used in the hadith or what? If that is your challenge, then obviously you do not take into consideration all the versions of the hadith. Prophet used three synonymous word: Khalifah, Amir and Imam.

Brother, I need an authentic narration that uses "Imam",that's all no need for conspiracy theories!

For example, Imam Abu Ya'la (d. 307 H) documents:

Anas: The Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, said: "The IMAMS are from Quraysh"

Sheik Dr. Asad says: Its chain is Sahih

Ref: Musnad Abu Ya'la (Damascus: Dar al-Mamun Li al-Turath; 1st edition, 1404 H)[annotator: Dr. Husayn Salim Asad], vol. 6, p.321,#3644.

This hadith is actually mutawatir, as al-Hafiz (d. 852 H) stated:

"The hadith 'The Imams are from Quraysh' is recorded by al-Nasai from Anas, and al-Tabarani narrated it in al-Du'a, and al-Bazzar and al-Bayhaqi also narrated it, through several chains, from Anas. I say: I gathered its chains in a separate volume from forty Sahabah."

Ref: Ahmad b. Hajar al-Asqalani, Talkhis al-Habir (Dar al-Kutub al-'Illmiyyah; 1st edition, 1419 H), vol.4, p.116,#1730

LOL, looks like you don't know what you've done. This is why hadith-cutting is very dangerous! The narration of Anas in which you speak about is tbis:

The hadith of Anas from Al Tayalsi:

"The Imams are from Quraish, if they judge; they judge fairly. If they give an oath; they stick to it. If asked for mercy; they show it. If they don't, then may the curse of Allah, his angels, and all the people be upon them. No repentance or ransom will be accepted."

Are these your Imams? Why does the Prophet peace be upon him threaten them? I thought they were infallible.

Hadith of Ali from Al Mustadrak:

"The Imams are from Quraish. The pious   of them rule the pious people, while the wicked from them rule the wicked people..."

Seems like your Imams were wicked as well, please present proper evidences. The narrations you're trying to link together are totally different!

# First this myth has been dealt with already. You do not need to assumed power to confirm the validity of your position. The onus lies with the Ummah to accept or reject your position but that does not nullify the appointed position and responsibility. Many Prophets were rejected by their Ummah yet their position and responsibility remain intact. The onus lies with their Ummah to accept or reject. According to the Quran, the responsibility of the Imams is stated:

Then this contradicts actions of Ali in Nahj after the death of Uthman when he was asked to be the Caliph and he refused, I posted above.

Obviously you have deviated from your Sunni manhaj. Sheik Ibn Taymiyyah (d. 728 H) writes

How does my quote go against the Manhaj of AhlSonnah? Being the most knowledgeable or spiritually uplifted doesn't necessarily mean you must become the Caliph. Talut(as) was a King during the time of a Prophet! A caliph made an Imam his advisor and the rest, so néed to complicate the issue.

BeansAndBread:


Brother stop comparing the companions of Prophet Muhammad(saw) with that of Prophet Musa(as), here's the difference:
Sahabas

The Messenger has believed in what was revealed to him from his Lord, and [so have] the believers. All of them have believed in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers, [saying], "We make no distinction between any of His messengers." And they say, "We hear and we obey. [We seek] Your forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the [final] destination." Quran 2:285

Followers of Prophet Musa

And [recall] when We took your covenant and raised over you the mount, [saying], "Take what We have given you with determination and listen." They said [instead], "We hear and disobey." And their hearts absorbed [the worship of] the calf because of their disbelief. Say, "How wretched is that which your faith enjoins upon you, if you should be believers." Quran 2:93

Absolutely there are lots of comparison between the two Ummah. Imam al-Tirmidhi documents:

"Abd Allah ibn Amir: The Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, said: 'Verily, everything that occurred to the offspring of Israil will occur to my Ummah in identical manners, such that if any of them had sexual intercourse with his mother publicly, there will certainly be in my Ummah someone who will do that. Verily, the offspring of Israil divided into seventy-two religions; and my Ummah will divide into seventy-three religions, all of them will be in fire except one religion." They said, "Who are those, O Messenger of Allah?' He replied, "That which I and my Sahabah follow."

Allamah al-Albani comments: Hasan.

Ref: al-Jami al-Sahih Sunan al-Tirmidhi (Beirut: Dar al-Ihya al-Turath al-Arabi)[annotator: Muhammad Nasir al-Din al-Albani], vol. 5, p.26,#2641.

# Now in respect to Khilafah, I have quoted above an authentic hadith where the holy Prophet was reported to have told Ali that "You are to me in status as Harun was to Musa except that you are not a prophet; and you are my Khalifah over every believer after me"

* Harun, the best of Musa's Ummah was betrayed by the same Ummah despite his clear appointment over them. The same happened to Ali.

Imam al-Hakim (d. 403 H) records:

'Ali, may Allah be pleased with him: "Verily, part of what the Prophet, peace be upon him, told me is that the Ummah would soon betray me after him"

* Imam Hakim declares: This hadith has a sahih chain

* Imam al-Dhahabi (d. 748 H) concurs: Sahih

Ref: al-Mustadrak ala al-Sahihayn (Beirut: Dar al-kutub al-'Illmiyah; 1st edition, 1411 H)[annotator: Mustafa Abd al-Qadir 'Ata], vol.3, p.150,#4676.

# Another hadith - THE TRUE WALI OF THE PROPHET

* Imam Ibn 'Asim (d. 287H) records:

Husayn b. Ali and Ahmad b. Uthman - Muhammad b. Khalid b. Athmah - Musa b. Ya'qub - al-Muhajir b. Mismar - Aishah bint Sa'd - her father:

I heard the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, saying on the day of al-Juhfah while holding the hand of Ali, and he delivered a sermon, and thanked Allah and praised Him, and then said: "O Mankind! I AM YOUR WALI'. They replied, "You have said the truth, O Messenger of Allah." Then he held the hand of Ali, may Allah be pleased with him, and raised it up, and said, "THIS (ALI) IS MY WALI, AND THE ONE TO DISCHARGE ON MY BEHALF"

Allamah al -Albani says: It is Sahih because it has shawahid.

Ref: {Kitab al-Sunnah (al-Maktab al-Islami; 1st edition, 1410 H)[annotator: Muhammad Nasir al-Din al-Albani], vol.2, p.565,#1189}.

NB: There are lots of hadith of this genre.

The Betrayal
# Unfortunately, what do we have after the demise of the Prophet? Abu Bakr and Umar claimed what never belonged to them.

* Imam Muslim records Umar ibn al-khattab saying:

"When the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, died, Abu Bakr said: “I am the WALI of the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him.”.... So both of you (Ali and Abbas) thought him (i.e. Abu Bakr) to be a liar, sinful, A TRAITOR and dishonest. And Allah knows that he was really truthful, pious, rightly-guided and a follower of the truth. Abu Bakr died and I became the WALI of the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, and the wali of Abu Bakr. So both of you thought me to be a liar, sinful, A TRAITOR and dishonest."

Ref: {Sahih Muslim (Beirut: Dar Iḥya al-Turath al-'Arabi), vol. 3, p. 1376, #1757}.

# So just like Ali and Harun are identical, so also is the Ummah of their respective Prophets (peace be upon them) are identical esp. In certain aspects.

BeansAndBread:


Still doesn't change the fact among all the 12 imams proclaimed only 2 were Caliphs. They had no power!

If the Prophet meant Ali and his offspring, he would have stated explicitly Banu Hashim or Banu Talib but he stated Banu Quraysh. It'll be better if you stop implying what the hadith never implied!

Meaning that you do not accept the further explanation of "the hadith of the 12 Khalifahs from Quraysh", in Hadith Khalifatain (Two Khalifahs) and Hadith Thaqalain where he emphatically appointed his offspring, the Ahlulbayt to be his Khalifah after him?!

BeansAndBread:


The hadith of Anas from Al Tayalsi:

"The Imams are from Quraish, if they judge; they judge fairly. If they give an oath; they stick to it. If asked for mercy; they show it. If they don't, then may the curse of Allah, his angels, and all the people be upon them. No repentance or ransom will be accepted."

Are these your Imams? Why does the Prophet peace be upon him threaten them? I thought they were infallible.

Hadith of Ali from Al Mustadrak:

"The Imams are from Quraish. The pious of them rule the pious people, while the wicked from them rule the wicked people..."

Seems like your Imams were wicked as well, please present proper evidences. The narrations you're trying to link together are totally different!
.
[/quote]

BeansAndBread:

Brother, I need an authentic narration that uses "Imam",that's all no need for conspiracy theories!

LOL, looks like you don't know what you've done. This is why hadith-cutting is very dangerous! The narration of Anas in which you speak about is tbis:

# According to the Quran, there are two "Khalifahs" - one is appointed by Allah and His Prophet over the people. Key example of this was Harun.
And the other "Khalifah" is the one appointed by force upon people. Example was Samiri. In the word of Nabi Harun (who was appointed by Allahabd His Prophet), according to Quran, he was nearly killed after being deemed weak. Allah says He test the people of Musa. Kindly read this beautiful story in the previously mentioned verses.

# The onus lies with the people to recognize the legitimate Imam from the imposters. If the Prophet declared that Imams or Khalifas are from Quraysh, he has emphatically declared the legitimate Imams and Khalifas to be from his blessed Offspring, the Ahlulbayt in Hadith Khalifatain. He knew some people will usurped and hijacked the Khilafah while his appointed Imams/Khalifahs will be sidelined.

Function of Khilafah and Imamah
# The position of Khilafah/ Amir or Imamah is very sensitive. In respect to Nabi Dawud (as), Allah states that he was his Khalifah on earth and its function was immediately stated: "Judge between people by the Truth". In respect with Imamah, Allah states its function: "To guide people by His Commands". To judge by the Truth, and to guide by Allah's command, you need to be the most pious knowledgeable in Allah's and Prophet's divine laws.

# If these are the functions of Khalifah or Imams, how will an evil person assume that position and the position if assumed by crook will be legitimate?

# Allah states: VERSE OF AL-IMAMAH
"And when Ibrahim was tried by his Lord with some statements, and he fulfilled them, He said, 'I will appoint you an IMAM of mankind.' He (Ibrahim) asked, 'And of my offspring?'. He (Allah) replied, 'My Covenant shall not reach the wrongdoers" {Quran 2:124}

Imam Ibn Kathir comments:
"...When he fulfilled the huge obligations which his Lord commanded him with, he appointed him the Imam of mankind, whom they must follow, and whose guidance they must copy. He requested Allah that this Imamah be connected with his lineage, and be UNINTERRUPTED within his offspring, and be PERPETUAL FOREVER among his offspring. So, what he asked WAS GRANTED, and he was granted full authority of Imamah, and the wrong-doers were excluded from its reach and it was made exclusive to the righteous scholars among his offspring."

Ref: {Abu al-Fida Ismail ibn Kathir, 'Qisas al-Anbiya', vol. 1 p. 232; 'al-Bidayah wa al-Nihayah', vol. 1 p. 191.}

Imamah is Allah's covenant and no wrongdoer will legitimately occupied that position.

# Prof. Ibn Yasin records:

"Al-Tabari records with Sahih chain from Mujahid that he said: "(My covenant shall not reach the wrongdoers) There will never be an Imam who does wrong."

Ref: Prof. Dr. Hikmat b. Bashir b. Yasin, Mawsuat al-Sahih al-Masbur min Tafsir bi al-Mathur (Madinah: Dar al-Mathar Li al-Nashr wa al-Tawzi wa al-Taba'at; 1st edition, 1420 H), vol. 1, p.229.

BeansAndBread:


As stated here:

Nahjul Balagha, SERMON 91:

When people decided to Swear allegiance at Amir al-mu'minin's hand after the murder of Uthman, Ali said:
"Leave me and seek someone else. We are facing a matter which has (several) faces and colors, which neither hearts can stand nor intelligence can accept. Clouds are hovering over the sky, and faces are not discernible. You should know that if I respond to you, I would lead you as I know and would not care about whatever [anyone else] may say. If you leave me, then I am the same as you are. It is possible I would listen to and obey whosoever you make in charge of your affairs. I am better for you as a counsellor than as chief."

Why did Ali (ra) first refuse to be Caliph when his people tried to nominate him? It's right there in the sacred collection of Ali's sermons. Would Ali (ra) refuse the task if it was something that was DEMANDED by Allah and his prophet? This would be declaring Ali (ra) a Faasiq (rebel against Allah) for shirking his duty to be Caliph.

What do you take Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib for? A power monger who jumped to power at any slight opportunity? For nearly 3 decades he was denied of his legitimate right and the Ummah knew. It is to their own spiritual advantage to be led and guide by Imam Ali. It was never on the shoulder of Imam Ali (as). Even according to your manhaj, there are four "rightly guided Khalifahs" and you believed it was from Abu Bakr to Ali in that order. If truly it was "rightly guided", then why did Ali refused at first?

# Imam refused these people who betrayed him since there was no remorse and repentance in their clamoring for him to be their Khalifah. He later accept this after giving them sets of conditions as specify in the above quoted sermon. Interestingly even when he was sidelined, the respective authorities of his time continuously sought his help in difficult matters to establish the truth and give rightful guidance. There are 1001 examples.

Let me give you a rare comment of Imam Muhammad al-Ghazali pertaining to Umar ibn al-Khattab:

#. Imam al-Ghazali (d. 450 H) writes:

The people and scholars agree upon the context of the narration of the sermon on the day of Ghadir Khum in which the Prophet (saw) said, "Whoever I am the Mawla then Ali (a) is the Mawla." Then Umar Ibn Khattab said: 'Congratulations! Oh Abal Hasan, you have become my Mawla and the Mawla of every believer.'

This shows his (Umar) submission and acceptance and confirmation (of Ali's wilayah). However after that, he (i.e Umar) was defeated by his desire and love of power in flag of leadership, and he was dominated by desire, and the desire to hold the flag of Caliphate, and the joy to open and conquer states, and by that they (i.e Umar and his cohorts) reverted to the early phase, they dispensed with the agreement (of Ghadir Khum) and sold it at a low price. And also the Prophet (saw) in his last illness before his death said: "Bring me a tablet and ink-pot, so that I may write for you a document by following which you will never go astray" whereupon Umar said: "Don't bring it, the man is talking nonsense.'"

Ref: Sirr al-Alamayn wa kash'f ma fid Darayn, pg.23.

# Imam Sibt b. Jawzi also quoted this in his: Tadhkirat Ul-Khawa'is, pg.62.

Such is the difference between a God appointed Khalifah and a self-appointed one.

BeansAndBread:


How does my quote go against the Manhaj of AhlSonnah? Being the most knowledgeable or spiritually uplifted doesn't necessarily mean you must become the Caliph. Talut(as) was a King during the time of a Prophet! A caliph made an Imam his advisor and the rest, so néed to complicate the issue.

Observe that underlined statement. Even Sheik Ibn Taymiyyah realized that and that was the reason he added "most beloved to the Prophet" to the criteria. Whichever way it is, the person MUST be appointed by Allah and His Prophet not by election or by any other means.

Coming back on Talut as you continuously making mention of him.

^ As for the case of Talut, it only proves the Shi'i position that only Allah appoints rulers for the Ummah. Even being a prophet does not make one an automatic ruler.

Salam Aleikom AlBaqir, my rebuttal is in two parts. I would ignore some parts which are irrelevant so as the discussion wouldn't be too long and clumsy thereby making it boring for those learning:

Absolutely there are lots of comparison between the two Ummah. Imam al-Tirmidhi documents:

"Abd Allah ibn Amir: The Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, said: 'Verily, everything that occurred to the offspring of Israil will occur to my Ummah in identical manners, such that if any of them had sexual intercourse with his mother publicly, there will certainly be in my Ummah someone who will do that. Verily, the offspring of Israil divided into seventy-two religions; and my Ummah will divide into seventy-three religions, all of them will be in fire except one religion." They said, "Who are those, O Messenger of Allah?' He replied, "That which I and my Sahabah follow."

No there isn't any comparison with the followers of Musa(as), the above narration refers to later generation of Muslims not the generation of the Sahabas. A narration shows this:

Sahih Muslim Book 031, Number 6151: Abdullah reported: It was asked from Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) who amongst the people were the best. He said: (People) of my generation, then those next to them, then those next to them, then there would come a people whose evidence would precede their oath and their oath would precede their evidence. Ibrahim said: They forbade us to make vows and bear witness when we were too young.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 57, Number 3: Narrated Abdullah:
The Prophet (may peace be upon him) said, "The best people are those living in my generation, and then those who will follow them, and then those who will follow the latter. Then there will come some people who will bear witness before taking oaths, and take oaths before bearing witness." (Ibrahim, a sub-narrator said, "They used to beat us for witnesses and covenants when we were still children."

So stop comparing Muslims with the people of Musa(as)

Function of Khilafah and Imamah
# The position of Khilafah/ Amir or Imamah is very sensitive. In respect to Nabi Dawud (as), Allah states that he was his Khalifah on earth and its function was immediately stated: "Judge between people by the Truth". In respect with Imamah, Allah states its function: "To guide people by His Commands". To judge by the Truth, and to guide by Allah's command, you need to be the most pious knowledgeable in Allah's and Prophet's divine laws.

Yes you're stating qualities of khalifah, no one disputes this fact. The hadith we're talking about mentions that Islam would have izza during their time, it neither describe their qualities nor mentioned any name. Now for the above qualities; it fits Abubakar, Umar, Uthman, Aliy, etc. Me personally would exclude Yazeed! No matter how we continue to debate, the fact of the matter is only 2 out of the Imams had power! It's because of this qualities the scholars of AhlSonnah were so careful! Even if we're to accept for the sake of this argument that the 12 Imams fit, was Islam strong during Hussain(ra) and Zain Al-Abideen's time?

# Allah states: VERSE OF AL-IMAMAH
"And when Ibrahim was tried by his Lord with some statements, and he fulfilled them, He said, 'I will appoint you an IMAM of mankind.' He (Ibrahim) asked, 'And of my offspring?'. He (Allah) replied, 'My Covenant shall not reach the wrongdoers" {Quran 2:124}

Are you saying because Prophet Ibrahim(as) was a prophet THEN ALLAH MADE HIM AN IMAM … thus Ali RAA is greater than everyone else because Imamat is after Prophet hood? Sorry brother, I don't think this verse refers or even supports the theory of Imamah. Did you miss that Prophet Ibrahim has also been cited as a nation in Surah 16.120, which would make the status of a nation even higher.

[16:120]Verily, Ibrâhim (Abraham) was an Ummah(a leader having all the good righteous qualities), or a nation, obedient to Allâh, Hanifa (i.e. to worship none but Allâh), and he was not one of those who were Al-Mushrikûn (polytheists, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allâh, and those who joined partners with Allâh).

038.026 O David! We did indeed make thee a Caliph on earth: so judge thou between men in truth (and justice): Nor follow thou the lusts (of thy heart), for they will mislead thee from the Path of God: for those who wander astray from the Path of God, is a Penalty Grievous, for that they forget the Day of Account.

Thus now I will say that the Status of Caliph is higher than that of a prophet, thus Abubakar(ra) is greater than everyone else??

For the other parts of the posts, that doesn't show that the other 10 were ruled the Ummah!

The Ghadir Khom has nothing whatsoever to do with the the appointment of Ali as the successor of the Prophet. This event was defending and praising Ali, looks like you're digressing from the topic. It doesn't change the fact that none of 12 imams apart from Ali(ra) and Hussain(ra) was the caliph in which the Ummah was in a state of izza!

^ As for the case of Talut, it only proves the Shi'i position that only Allah appoints rulers for the Ummah. Even being a prophet does not make one an automatic ruler.

It's also proves my position that being the most knowledgeable doesn't always imply you'll be the leader!

Demmzy15:
Jazaka Allaah kayran brother BeansAndBread, your moniker is very funny tho!

the brother must love Ewa aganin and Buredi. I was confused when i first noticed his moniker

And you funny too the way u worded it "brother BeansAndBread"


Following............

Interesting, following...

Empiree:
the brother must love Ewa aganin and Buredi. I was confused when i first noticed his moniker

And you funny too the way u worded it "brother BeansAndBread"


Following............

Salam Aleikom brother, I love the Eko type of Ewa ganin and buredi, it makes my day wallahi.

BeansAndBread:
Salam Aleikom AlBaqir, my rebuttal is in two parts. I would ignore some parts which are irrelevant so as the discussion wouldn't be too long and clumsy thereby making it boring for those learning:

WA alaykum Salam sir. Whichever direction you wish to go I can easily adjust in sha Allah. However the bottom line is let our mind be broad enough to accept the truth and rationality even if it is against our initial thought.

BeansAndBread:

No there isn't any comparison with the followers of Musa(as), the above narration refers to later generation of Muslims not the generation of the Sahabas. A narration shows this:

# There is no ambiguity in that hadith Sherif. Exclusively what happened to Musa's Ummah is foretold by the Prophet to happen to his Ummah too in identical version.

* Very unfortunate you interpret the word "my Ummah" in the hadith sherif to mean "later generations of the Muslims" excluding the period of Sahabah relying on "hadith of best of generations".

>>Apart from the fact that the hadith simply say "my Ummah" not "later generation", Were the Sahabah not part of Prophet's Ummah? In fact they were at the forefront of this Ummah. In fact they started, immediately after the demise of the prophet, the schism and division in religion. They wage wars against each other. Hypocrisy and Apostasy started with them. And no doubt the peak and zenith of beliefs can be found among them also. These mixed character is exactly the same in Musa's Ummah.

# Furthermore, Quran lay emphasis on Musa's Ummah more than any other as admonition to the Ummah of Muhammad. Yet, there were:

* Staunch hypocrites among the Sahabah; and they were so many and perfected their hypocrisy that even the Prophet knew them not [surah Tawbah: 101] and a complete surah was revealed after them: Surah Munafiqun.

* Hadith al-Hawd revealed that some Sahabah will innovated and APOSTATIZE after the death of the Prophet. Were these not happened to Musa's Ummah?

* Prophet himself made similarity in STATUS (MANZILA) between Harun and Ali (in relation to Musa and himself) to the extent that both were betrayed by their Ummah yet you claim there were no similarities.

BeansAndBread:

Sahih Muslim Book 031, Number 6151: Abdullah reported: It was asked from Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) who amongst the people were the best. He said: (People) of my generation, then those next to them, then those next to them, then there would come a people whose evidence would precede their oath and their oath would precede their evidence. Ibrahim said: They forbade us to make vows and bear witness when we were too young.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 57, Number 3: Narrated Abdullah:
The Prophet (may peace be upon him) said, "The best people are those living in my generation, and then those who will follow them, and then those who will follow the latter. Then there will come some people who will bear witness before taking oaths, and take oaths before bearing witness." (Ibrahim, a sub-narrator said, "They used to beat us for witnesses and covenants when we were still children."

Clarifying your "interpretation" of hadith of best generations

The ahadith are no doubt Sahih but you have a woeful interpretation attached to it in which according to your manhah ALL Sahabah were righteous and candidates of Jannah.

1. What does it mean that Prophet's generation was the best?

The worst of human beings were the ones who wage war and persecuted the Prophet and his true followers for more than 2 decades. Quran, sahih ahadith and sirah also revealed many sahabah constantly abandoned the Prophet in the thick of battle with polytheist [battle of Uhud, Hunayn etc]. Some will even pretended not fit to go to war. Some of these Sahabah even planned to assassinate the Prophet. And the fact that hypocrisy [which is worse than kufr] were in abundance among the Sahabah during the lifetime of the holy Prophet completely destroyed your interpretation. What happened after the demise of Prophet was even worse. *These does not mean there were no unmatched Sahabah, the best never to have seen by any generation. Quran speaks of one in Surah Tawbah:100.

# Again what does it mean that "Prophet's generation was the best?

* The presence of ANY prophet is usually characterized by certain form of divine blessings. And the best form of divine blessings were experienced with the physical presence of the best Prophet, Muhammad ibn Abdullah (peace be upon him and his progeny). It was a generation where angels constantly descend, Wahy (divine inspiration) continuously been sent, Ramadhan - the best of fastings - was established, Quranic revelation (in its Anzal and Nazal) continuously been revealed, Islam was completed and chosen as religion with Allah. No Prophet of any generation experienced the like of these. This is what is meant by "best of generations" not because of the existence of sahabah whose characters were mixed.

2. What does it mean that 2 generations after Prophet were also best?!

Observe: After the demise of the Prophet, the hidden hypocrisy manifested itself fully. Innovation, apostasy, civil wars, sahabah killing each other, sahabah running after worldly life etc. Same continue to happen till date.

Yet that generations after the Prophet remain best of generations. How? It was as a result of the presence of certain individuals whom Allah has chosen above mankind. These were the blessed family of the Prophet whom every believer are enjoined to pray for in their salat: "O Allah send Your blessings/Salat upon Muhammad and family of Muhammad in exactly the same manner You have blessed/"Salated" Ibrahim and the family of Ibrahim".

Offspring/Family of Ibrahim?!
"Verily, Allah chose Adam, Nuh, the Family of Ibrahim and the family of Imran above the worlds..." {al-Imran:33}

# Imam Bukhari (d. 256H) writes:

"{Verily, Allah chose Adam, Nuh, the family of Ibrahim and the family of Imran above the worlds...Allah provides sustenance to whom He wills, without limit}. Ibn Abbas said: "{and the family of Imran} They are the believers from the family of Ibrahim, the family of 'Imran, the family of Yasin AND THE FAMILY OF MUHAMMAD..." Ref: {Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 3 p. 1263}

Ahli Muhammad are (were) the best of mankind, therefore a generation become best because of their presence.

BeansAndBread:

So stop comparing Muslims with the people of Musa(as)

I did not. Prophet himself did but you chose to interpret his hadith to protect Sunni manhaj of making ALL Sahabah infallible.

BeansAndBread:

Yes you're stating qualities of khalifah, no one disputes this fact. The hadith we're talking about mentions that Islam would have izza during their time, it neither describe their qualities nor mentioned any name. Now for the above qualities; it fits Abubakar, Umar, Uthman, Aliy, etc. Me personally would exclude Yazeed! No matter how we continue to debate, the fact of the matter is only 2 out of the Imams had power! It's because of this qualities the scholars of AhlSonnah were so careful! Even if we're to accept for the sake of this argument that the 12 Imams fit, was Islam strong during Hussain(ra) and Zain Al-Abideen's time?

@Bold above, Hadith Khalifatain which you seemed to be scared of exclusively mentioned the Khalifah after the holy Prophet to be his offspring, the Ahlulbayt. Besides, another hadith - Hadith Khalifah and Hadith Wilayah have been quoted again and again which exclusively mentioned Ali's name as Prophet's immediate Khalifah and Wali over every believer.

@Underlined, obviously you do not understand the hadith at all.

The Hadith in scrutiny with Sheik Ibn Taymiyyah's Hallucinations

# Imam Ahmad documents:

Abd Allah (b. Aḥmad) – my father (Aḥmad b. Ḥanbal) - Yunus b. Muḥammad – Hammad b. Zayd – Mujalid – al-Sha’bi – Jabir b. Samurah:

The Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, delivered a sermon to us at ‘Arafat and said, “This affair will never cease to be STRONG, invincible and victorious over whoever opposes it as long as twelve (people) rule by kingdom. All of them….”
(Jabir said): I did not understand what was said after that. So, I said to my father, “What did he say after ‘all of them…’?”. He replied, “All of them will be from Quraysh.”

Al-Arnaut says: A Sahih ḥadith

Ref: Musnad (Cairo: Muasassat Qurṭubah) [annotator: Shu’ayb al-Arnaut], vol. 5, p. 96, # 20944

# Imam Ibn Hibban (d. 354 H) documents:

Ibrahim b. Nasr al-Anbari – ‘'Ali b. Khashram – ‘Isa b. Yunus – ‘Imran al-Qubi – al-Sha’bi – Jabir b. Samurah:

I heard the Prophet, peace be upon him, saying during the Farewell Ḥajj: “The affair of this Ummah will never cease to be victorious over whoever opposes it as long as twelve Khalifahs rule by kingdom.”

Ref: Kitab al-Thiqat (Hyderabad: Majlis Dairat al-Ma'arif al-‘Uthmaniyyah; 1st edition, 1393 H), vol. 7, pp. 241-242, # 9878

* Sheik Ibn Taymiyyah (d. 728 H) writes:

"And in a text “Islam will never cease to be strong till twelve Khalifahs, all of them from Quraysh”, and this was exactly how it was, for the Khalifahs were Abu Bakr, ‘Umar, ‘Uthman, ‘Ali and then those upon whom the people agreed, who were strong and invincible, ruled: Mu'awiyah, his son Yazid, ‘Abd al-Malik, and his four children, and ‘Umar b. ‘Abd al-‘Aziz was one of them.

Ref: Minhaj al-Sunnah al-Nabawiyyah (Muasassat Qurṭubah; 1st edition, 1406 H) [annotator: Dr. Muḥammad Rashad Salim], vol.8,p.238

# Apart from the fact that Hadith Khalifatain had destroyed the feeble confirmation of our dear sheik who generously named bunch of non-prophetic offspring in the list of 12 Khalifahs as opposed to designated prophetic offspring, Another error of our Shaykh is his confusion of these two sentences:

1. Islam is strong, 2. The Ummah is strong.

This is why he declares:

"This is a confirmation of what the Prophet, peace be upon him, had prophesied when he said: “This religion will never cease to be strong as long as twelve Khalifas rule, all of them from Quraysh”. These twelve Khalifas are those mentioned in al-Tawrah, when He (Allah) said in His glad tiding concerning Ismail: “He will give birth to twelve great people”. Whoever these that these twelve are those who are accepted as Imams by the Rafidha is in the worst level of ignorance, for there was none among them who held military authority except ‘Ali b. Abi Talib."

Ref: Minhaj al-Sunnah al-Nabawiyyah (Muasassat Qurṭubah; 1st edition, 1406 H) [annotator: Dr. Muḥammad Rashad Salim], vol. 8, pp. 240-241

*Observe: Ibn Taymiyyah apparently equates the might of the Ummah with that of its religion. Meanwhile, it is perfectly possible to have a strong Islam but a weak Ummah. The strength of the Ummah is obviously in its unity and military prowess. However, that of the religion lies only in its ability to “stand” on the surface of the earth. This has been explicitly stated in another Hadith:

"The religion will never cease to STAND until the establishment of the Hour or as long as there are twelve Khalifas over you, all of them from Quraysh." Ref: Minhaj al-Sunnah al-Nabawiyyah (Muasassat Qurṭubah; 1st edition, 1406 H) [annotator: Dr. Muḥammad Rashad Salim], vol. 3, p. 1453, # 1822 (10)

There are always forces struggling to push Islam to the ground. However, it will never fall. It shall remain standing on the earth till al-Qiyamah. This is the meaning of its strength. The inability of its enemies to terminate it is its invincibility. This is also indicated in yet another hadith documented by Imam Ahmad:

Abd Allah (b. Aḥmad) – my father (Aḥmad b. Hanbal) – Ḥammad b. Usamah – Mujalid – ‘Amir – Jabir b. Samurah al-Suwai:

I heard the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, saying during the Farewell Ḥajj: “Verily, this religion will never cease to be victorious over whoever opposes it - no opponent or defector will be able to harm it – as long as twelve Khalifas pass from my Ummah.” Then, he said something which I did not understand. So, I said to my father, “What did he say?” He replied, “All of them will be from Quraysh.”

Al-Arnaut says: It is a sahih ḥadith.

Ref: Musnad (Cairo: Muasassat Qurṭubah) [annotator: Shu’ayb al-Arnaut], vol. 5, p. 87, # 20833

All praise be to Allah: our religion has continued to stand upon its two feet since the departure of our Prophet, despite the persistent aggression and subversion of its hardened foes to bring it down. Interestingly, as long as Islam breathes on our planet, there is one of the twelve Khalifahs from the offspring of Muḥammad, placed over humanity by Allah as their master and guide. That is al-Mahdi (as), which unfortunately is not counted by Ahlu sunnah scholars among the Twelve Khalifahs. The grave danger to this is that since Sunni have exhausted the list of 12 Khalifahs, absolutely there is none since centuries back till centuries to come despite the clear statement of the Prophet which indicated the 12 Khalifah's "rule" will spread and continue till al-Qiyamat.

* Interestingly, the appointed Imams or Khalifahs just like the Prophets of Allah, whether he stands or sits, accepted or rejected, recognized or unrecognized by their people, so long they remain on earth (with their Ummah), blessings associated with their presence will never cease; hence, the continuity of religion of Allah standing on its feet is preserved.

BeansAndBread:

Are you saying because Prophet Ibrahim(as) was a prophet THEN ALLAH MADE HIM AN IMAM … thus Ali RAA is greater than everyone else because Imamat is after Prophet hood? Sorry brother, I don't think this verse refers or even supports the theory of Imamah.

Absolutely Nabi Ibrahim was both a Prophet and Messenger sent to his people. He was further elevated to the status of Imamah which Quran clarify to be UNIVERSAL as opposed to Ibrahim's Nubuwah and Risalat which were specific. Only Muhammad's Nubuwah and Risalat were Universal.

# So, the theory of Imamah started with Nabi Ibrahim, and according to Quran, he requested same status for his progeny. Allah accepted and gave us several examples in His Book how Ibrahim's offspring were made Imam who guide by His command.

# According to Ibn Kathir which I have cited before, the request of Ibrahim was that the Status of Imamah should be permanently forever be fixed in his offspring. Ahli Muhammad (Ahlulbayt) were the Imam of Ibrahim's offspring of this last Ummah.

Brother BeansAndBread, you obviously have a highest mountain to climb to refute the verse of Imamah in the Quran. Superiority of Prophet's Ahlulbayt does not only lies with "verse of Imamah". There is "verse of Istafa" where Allah chose them above mankind. And interestingly in all of your salat, you (BeansAndBread) and all Muslims continuously making "covenant" in Salat Ibrahimiyah quoted above. What do you think is meant by saying: O Allah bless Muhammad and Ahli Muhammad in exactly the same manner You have blessed Ibrahim and Ahli Ibrahim?

* Ahli Ibrahim were chosen above mankind

* Ahli Ibrahim were chosen as Imams over mankind

* Ahli Ibrahim were endowed with Hikmah, divine book and Mulkan Azeem (great kingdom).

Are these not part of the blessings you are praying for Ahli Muhammad? ALL Sahabah including Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman et al prayed the same. Whoever failed to include this in his Salat, his salat is void.

BeansAndBread:


Did you miss that Prophet Ibrahim has also been cited as a nation in Surah 16.120, which would make the status of a nation even higher.

[16:120]Verily, Ibrâhim (Abraham) was an Ummah(a leader having all the good righteous qualities), or a nation, obedient to Allâh, Hanifa (i.e. to worship none but Allâh), and he was not one of those who were Al-Mushrikûn (polytheists, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allâh, and those who joined partners with Allâh).

Nabi Ibrahim (as) being cited as "a Nation" is not a Status but an expression. You only qualified and awarded a new position after passing a or several tests. This is what Quran confirmed when Ibrahim was elevated to the status of Imamah.

# An expression that Ibrahim was "a Nation" is obvious. Nabi Nuh was refer as "second Adam" because the whole world was destroyed, and he rebuilt and established a new world. * All monotheistic religions: Christianity, Judaism and Islam, all have their root from the seeds of Ibrahim. All prophets, all divine books and laws (after Ibrahim) came from his progeny. This is what is meant by Ibrahim being "a Nation".

BeansAndBread:

038.026 O David! We did indeed make thee a Caliph on earth: so judge thou between men in truth (and justice): Nor follow thou the lusts (of thy heart), for they will mislead thee from the Path of God: for those who wander astray from the Path of God, is a Penalty Grievous, for that they forget the Day of Account.

Thus now I will say that the Status of Caliph is higher than that of a prophet, thus Abubakar(ra) is greater than everyone else??

For the other parts of the posts, that doesn't show that the other 10 were ruled the Ummah!

Hushh...another very wrong interpretation/conclusion. The word "Khalifah" in its linguistic meaning means someone that stands in place of another who is physically or permanently absence.

# According to Quran, Allah says: [And when your Lord said to the angels, I am going to place in the earth a Khalifa...]{al-Baqarah:30}
Adam was placed on earth. At every age all the Prophets of Allah were "Khalifatullah - Allah's representatives". Case of Nabi Dawud (as) exposed this.

# By extension, a prophet before his demise usually place another "Khalifah" to represent him to preserve the divine message of Allah.

# Therefore there is difference between God's appointed Khalifah and ones selected by people or self-imposed. The later is not divine in anyway but of course, historical.

BeansAndBread:
The Ghadir Khom has nothing whatsoever to do with the the appointment of Ali as the successor of the Prophet. This event was defending and praising Ali, looks like you're digressing from the topic. It doesn't change the fact that none of 12 imams apart from Ali(ra) and Hussain(ra) was the caliph in which the Ummah was in a state of izza!

Am afraid you are the one mixing things up with your self-styled interpretations. Hadith of 12 Khalifahs is what is before us. While you maintained that the cap can fit anybody since "no name" was mentioned, you selected your 12 based on military prowess and power possession due to the fact that the hadith says the Ummah will continue to be strong and Islam stands its feet. This "izza of Ummah/Islam" has been dealt with already.

# Hadith Khalifatain punctured your argument that no name was mentioned. Here the "name" of all were cited in Prophet's offspring.

# Hadith Khalifah and Hadith Wilayah punctured your argument further because Ali's name was exclusively mentioned.

# Hadith Ghadir: How does it defending and praising Ali? Sunni myth was that Ali had several enemies, therefore Prophet enjoined them to love Ali and take him as their friends. Prophet had warned the sahabah ever before the event of Ghadir Khumm (few months to his death) thus:

* Allamah al-Albani for instance records:

Prophet said: "Whosoever loves Ali has loved me, and whosoever hates Ali has hated me"

Albani says: Sahih. Ref: Sahih al-Jami al-Saghir wa Ziyadatuhu (Al-Maktab al-Islami), vol.2, p.1034,#5963.

# In other hadith, the wording is daunting: "Whosoever loves Ali has loved me. And whosoever loves me has loved Allah the Almighty. Moreover, whosoever hates Ali has hated me. And whosoever hates me has hated Allah the Almighty."

Albani: Al-Mukhlis recorded it in al-Fawaid al-Muntaqat (10/5/1) with a sahih chain from Umm Salamah.

Ref: Silsilah al-Ahadith al-Sahihah (Riyadh: Maktabah al-Ma'arifa Li al-Nashr wa al-Tawzi; 1st edition, 1415 H), vol.3, p.287-288, #1299.

Prophet correcting a Sahabi

# Imam Ahmad (d.241H) related the case of Buraydah, a prominent Sahabi:

Buraydah: I hated Ali with a hatred that I never hated anyone else...And he (the Prophet) said (to me), "Do you hate 'Ali?" I said, "Yes". He said, "Do not hate him, and if you love him, then increase your love for him...Therefore after the statement of the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, there was no person among all mankind who was more beloved to me than 'Ali"

Sheik al-Arnaut says: It is a sahih hadith...

Ref: Musnad (Cairo: Muasassat Qurtubah)[annotator: Shuaib al-Arnaut], vol.5, p.350,#23017

So, all these ahadith and events which were pre-Ghadir Khumm hadith and events clearly throw Sunni's "Ali's friendship interpretation" into thrash bin.

True Meaning of Hadith Ghadir Khumm
Rare scholars of Ahlu Sunnah like Imam al-Ghazali interpreted this hadith correctly in its "mastership". Here's the hadith for you to digest and point out where "Ali is being defended or merely praised":

* Al-Hafiz Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalani documents:

Isḥaq said: Abu ‘Amir al-‘Aqadi – Kathir b. Zayd – Muḥammad b. ‘Umar b. ‘Ali – his father - ‘Ali:

"Verily, the Prophet, peace be upon him, came to a tree at (Ghadir) Khumm. Then he came out, holding the hand of ‘Ali, and saying: “Do you not testify that Allah is your Lord?” They said, “Yes, we do.” He said, “Do you not testify that Allah and His Messenger are more entitled to you than yourselves and that Allah and His Messenger are your Awliya?” They said, “Yes, we do”. He said, “So, whosoever Allah and His Messenger are his Mawla, verily this one (i.e. ‘Ali) is his Mawla. I have left behind over you that which if you hold fast to it you will never go astray: the Book of Allah – one end of which is in His Hand and the other in your hands – and my Ahl al-Bayt.”

Then, al-Ḥāfiẓ comments: This chain is ṣaḥīḥ.

Ref: al-Matalib al-Aliyah bi Zawaid al-Masanid al-Thamaniyah (Beirut: Dar al-Ma’rifah; 1414 H) [annotator: Prof. Shaykh Ḥabib al-Raḥman al-A’ẓami], vol., 4, p. 65, # 3972}

# The word "Awliya", "Mawla" as every Arabic word could have several meanings but the exact meaning is determined through the context it is being used. The bold and underlined statement in the above hadith defined the exact meaning of the word "Awliya", and "Mawla" as used by the Prophet.

BeansAndBread:

Salam Aleikom brother, I love the Eko type of Ewa ganin and buredi, it makes my day wallahi.

walaikum salaam I was right. I sensed that....lol

Salam Aleikom AlBaqir

Am afraid you are the one mixing things up with your self-styled interpretations. Hadith of 12 Khalifahs is what is before us. While you maintained that the cap can fit anybody since "no name" was mentioned, you selected your 12 based on military prowess and power possession due to the fact that the hadith says the Ummah will continue to be strong and Islam stands its feet. This "izza of Ummah/Islam" has been dealt with already.

Yes Ahl Sonnah picked their twelve based on military prowess and the fact that Islam had izza then, I maintained that even if the Imams were alive they don't have to be the Caliph. I keep saying Talut(as) was a King during the reign of a Prophet, Caliph Al-Mamon made Ali Ridha(rah) is adviser and the whole Ummah was favored then.

No one dealt with Izza, explain what you mean by the Izza?

# Hadith Ghadir: How does it defending and praising Ali? Sunni myth was that Ali had several enemies, therefore Prophet enjoined them to love Ali and take him as their friends. Prophet had warned the sahabah ever before the event of Ghadir Khumm (few months to his death) thus:

No one is dealing with Hadith Ghadir here, we're talking about the 12 caliph Hadith! You said the 12 imams are the caliphs in which during their reign Islam was in Izza, now why is that among all the 12 only 2 had authority and power? This is a question you've been running around since, was Islam in Izza during Hussain and Zain Al Abideen's time?

He(saw) said Islam will be good in their reign, he didn't say there will only be 12 rulers, he said in a Sahih Hadith that there will be MANY rulers.

* Very unfortunate you interpret the word "my Ummah" in the hadith sherif to mean "later generations of the Muslims" excluding the period of Sahabah relying on "hadith of best of generations".

Still you're presenting any fact, the generation of the Sahabas cannot be compared with that of followers of Musa(as). Lemme show you another verse from the Quran:

And what reason have you that you should not spend in Allah's way? And Allah's is the inheritance of the heavens and the earth, not alike among you are those who spent before the victory and fought (and those who did not): they are more exalted in rank than those who spent and fought afterwards; and Allah has promised good to all; and Allah is Aware of what you do. Quran 57:10

As you can see Allaah himself differ among the companions so do we. The Sahabas are not perfect they made mistakes, but you trying to portray them in extreme light doesn't make sense.

* Prophet himself made similarity in STATUS (MANZILA) between Harun and Ali (in relation to Musa and himself) to the extent that both were betrayed by their Ummah yet you claim there were no similarities.

Harun(as) was not the successor of Musa(as), Harun(as) WAS MADE A PROPHET DURING Musa's(as) lifetime. Ali was made the leader after the death of the Prophet!

Offspring/Family of Ibrahim?!
"Verily, Allah chose Adam, Nuh, the Family of Ibrahim and the family of Imran above the worlds..." {al-Imran:33}

Yes it includes all the Ahl Beyt of the Prophets, including their wives and children. I'm disputing any fact about the Ahl Muhammad, they're good, knowledgeable and had great piety. We're not discussing about the the families of the above Prophets. Why is that among all the 12 imams only 2 had power and authority? If we say they the 12 imams are the caliphs, was Islam good and great during Hussain(ra) and Zain Al Abideen's(rah) time?

I did not. Prophet himself did but you chose to interpret his hadith to protect Sunni manhaj of making ALL Sahabah infallible.

@underlined, looks like you're giving "infallible" another meaning, I'm not a Shia that would declare humans infallible. Everyone is bound to make errors, here's a definition for "infallible" incase you're missing something:

in·fal·li·ble
inˈfaləb(ə)l/
adjective
incapable of making mistakes or being wrong.

To be continued.....

Empiree:
walaikum salaam I was right. I sensed that....lol

@Bold above, Hadith Khalifatain which you seemed to be scared of exclusively mentioned the Khalifah after the holy Prophet to be his offspring, the Ahlulbayt. Besides, another hadith - Hadith Khalifah and Hadith Wilayah have been quoted again and again which exclusively mentioned Ali's name as Prophet's immediate Khalifah and Wali over every believer.

I didn't mention anything concerning Sheikh Ibn Taymiyyah(rah) or did I? So why trying to explain his fatwa? Our case here, is the Prophet said there would be 12 Caliphs in whose time Islam would be in a state of izza. I said this can't be your Imams because only 2 had powers, but you say contrary. Moreover, none of the Imams ever claimed, I'm the first, second, sixth, etc Imams. Today many Sunnis fall into the trap that the Shia has 12 imams, this is false.

The same thing you accuse Ahl Sonnah, that is cherry picking Caliphs is what you Shias are also guilty of. What of Imam Hussan Al Massana bin Hassan (rah), Imam Abdullah bin Hassan, Imam Zayd bin Ali (rah), Imam Yahya bin Zayd (rah), Imam Esa bin Zayd (rah), Imam Muhammad bin Abdullah (rah) alias Nafs az- Zakiyah, Imam Ibraheem bin Abdullah (rah), Imam Ismael bin Jaffar (rah) and many others. Are they not Imams too?! Why exclude them?

Absolutely Nabi Ibrahim was both a Prophet and Messenger sent to his people. He was further elevated to the status of Imamah which Quran clarify to be UNIVERSAL as opposed to Ibrahim's Nubuwah and Risalat which were specific. Only Muhammad's Nubuwah and Risalat were Universal.

LOL, I made that comparison after you tried to connect the Imamah of Prophet Ibrahim(as) and Aliy(ra). If Aliyy is superior because Prophet Ibrahim was made Imam after Prophet hood, then Abubakar is more superior because Prophet Dawud is made a Prophet afterwards a Caliph. Now how's that?!

Brother BeansAndBread, you obviously have a highest mountain to climb to refute the verse of Imamah in the Quran. Superiority of Prophet's Ahlulbayt does not only lies with "verse of Imamah". There is "verse of Istafa" where Allah chose them above mankind. And interestingly in all of your salat, you (BeansAndBread) and all Muslims continuously making "covenant" in Salat Ibrahimiyah quoted above. What do you think is meant by saying: O Allah bless Muhammad and Ahli Muhammad in exactly the same manner You have blessed Ibrahim and Ahli Ibrahim?

Looks like you're getting it wrong, I'm not arguing about the Theory of Imamah maybe some other time, you claim the 12 imams are the caliphs, now give me proofs why the other 10 didn't have power and authority? If they did, was Islam in izza during Hussain(ra) and Zain(ra)?

BeansAndBread:
Salam Aleikom AlBaqir

WA alaykum Salam my brother with a name that make mouth salivate

BeansAndBread:

Yes Ahl Sonnah picked their twelve based on military prowess and the fact that Islam had izza then, I maintained that even if the Imams were alive they don't have to be the Caliph. I keep saying Talut(as) was a King during the reign of a Prophet, Caliph Al-Mamon made Ali Ridha(rah) is adviser and the whole Ummah was favored then.

No one dealt with Izza, explain what you mean by the Izza?

# Anybody can hijack and assumed power but not all are appointed by Allah. Shia first argument still remain that those 12 Khalifahs or Imam or Amirs were Appointed by Allah and His Messenger.

# Playing your "Izza" card, what happened to Islamic Izza after the Twelfth Khalifah of Ahlu Sunnah had apparently died centuries back while we still have Allah knows centuries to Mahdi arrival (who was not even on Sunni list of 12 Khalifahs) or al-Qiyamat. After all the presence of Khalifah with power and military prowess makes Islam stand its feet in line with the reasoning of Ahlu Sunnah?

# If the criteria of Ahlu Sunnah in selecting the names of 12 Khalifahs is "assumption to power and military strength", why were the names of all the rest of Banu Abbas, Banu Ummayads Khalifahs not selected? That was the reason why Ahlu sunnah NEVER concluded on the names of their 12 Khalifahs. Ahlu sunnah had tens of Khalifahs till it ended at Ottoman empire.

# Why did Sunni included Imam Hassan to the list of their 12 Khalifahs who possess power? If al-Hassan (as) truly possess power, why did he abdicated the Khilafah for more "powerful" Mu'awiyah? After all this same Mu'awiyah waged war against Imam Ali (as) at Siffin, yet Ali never rescinded his Khilafah.

# Shia believed Islam will continue to stands its feet till al-Qiyamah so long there is presence of Imam or Khalifa or Amir from the offspring of the holy Prophet on earth. Our Twelfth Imam, who is the Imam of the age, is al-Mahdi al-Muntazar.

Please never run away from Hadith Khalifatain, and others that clearly stated Ali as Prophet's immediate Khalifah.

BeansAndBread:

No one is dealing with Hadith Ghadir here, we're talking about the 12 caliph Hadith! You said the 12 imams are the caliphs in which during their reign Islam was in Izza, now why is that among all the 12 only 2 had authority and power? This is a question you've been running around since, was Islam in Izza during Hussain and Zain Al Abideen's time?

He(saw) said Islam will be good in their reign, he didn't say there will only be 12 rulers, he said in a Sahih Hadith that there will be MANY rulers.

Let me remind you brother. Hadith Ghadir came on board when I posted Imam al-Ghazali's comment on Umar. I posted this as a rebuttal to your interpretation of the sermon of Amir al-mu'minin Imam Ali when he refused to assumed power by the insistence of people. I simply explore the difference between a God appointed Khalifah and self-imposed one. Instead of you treating the comment of Imam Ghazali, you try to undermined Hadith Ghadir. So I have no choice but to give you a tip of its iceberg.

BeansAndBread:

Still you're presenting any fact, the generation of the Sahabas cannot be compared with that of followers of Musa(as). Lemme show you another verse from the Quran:

And what reason have you that you should not spend in Allah's way? And Allah's is the inheritance of the heavens and the earth, not alike among you are those who spent before the victory and fought (and those who did not): they are more exalted in rank than those who spent and fought afterwards; and Allah has promised good to all; and Allah is Aware of what you do. Quran 57:10

As you can see Allaah himself differ among the companions so do we. The Sahabas are not perfect they made mistakes, but you trying to portray them in extreme light doesn't make sense.

Thanks for adding more bullets to my arsenal. The Ummah of both Nabi Musa and Nabi Muhammad have mixed companions in good and bad. Another identical similarities.

# Your argument is "my Ummah" refer to "later generation of Muslims excluding the Sahabah" and my rebuttal is Sahabah were the forerunner of this Ummah and all the problem of Muslims till date started with them. So the hadith remain 100% in its interpretations that "my Ummah will be identical to Musa's Ummah," whilst the later split to 72, Muhammad Ummah will split to 73. Again that schism started with the Sahabah who no doubt were part of the Ummah.

BeansAndBread:

Harun(as) was not the successor of Musa(as), Harun(as) WAS MADE A PROPHET DURING Musa's(as) lifetime. Ali was made the leader after the death of the Prophet!

That is the reason the hadith is explicit and crystal clear emphasising on after me. Prophet knew Harun died before Musa. Harun was older than Musa. He knew Harun was a prophet and there is no other after him (the holy Prophet). Observe, Harun was a natural successor of Musa but Allah had a plan different. Harun died earlier. In contrast, prophet knew Ali is younger than him. He knew Ali will live longer than him. Hence, the Hadith Sherif reads:

Ibn Abbas said: The Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, said to Ali: "You are to me of the status of Harun to Musa, with the exception that you are not a prophet. And you are my Khalifah over every believer AFTER ME."

Prophet (peace be upon him and his progeny) was the best in balagha (eloquence).

BeansAndBread:

Yes it includes all the Ahl Beyt of the Prophets, including their wives and children. I'm disputing any fact about the Ahl Muhammad, they're good, knowledgeable and had great piety. We're not discussing about the the families of the above Prophets. Why is that among all the 12 imams only 2 had power and authority? If we say they the 12 imams are the caliphs, was Islam good and great during Hussain(ra) and Zain Al Abideen's(rah) time?

Generally you are very right that "wives and all children" of the Prophet, including cousins (Banu Abbas, Banu Jafar, Banu etc) were part of "Ahlulbayt". However, Prophet emphatically narrowed it down to its offspring (itrah) ONLY in the following:

# Ayat Tathir (verse of purification)

# Ayat Mubahala (verse of maledictions)

# Hadith Thaqalain (Two weighty things) and Hadith Khalifatain (Two Khalifas).

Ahadith are in their abundant for all the above facts to the extent that wife of the Prophet was denied to be part of this special Ahlulbayt. Be my guess should you wanna explore this.

WA Salam alaykum.

.

WA alaykum Salam my brother with a name that make mouth salivate

# Anybody can hijack and assumed power but not all are appointed by Allah. Shia first argument still remain that those 12 Khalifahs or Imam or Amirs were Appointed by Allah and His Messenger.

Not all hijackers are bad, let's say there's a tyrant and the Khalifah is hijacked from him, is it a bad one? That's not the case here, when Ahl Sonnah chose their Caliphs they based it on those who were just. Like Abubakar, Umar, Uthman, Aliyy, Hassan, Muawiyah, Umar Ibn Abdulaziz, etc. This is why it doesn't make sense that Yazeed is to be placed here!

# Playing your "Izza" card, what happened to Islamic Izza after the Twelfth Khalifah of Ahlu Sunnah had apparently died centuries back while we still have Allah knows centuries to Mahdi arrival (who was not even on Sunni list of 12 Khalifahs) or al-Qiyamat. After all the presence of Khalifah with power and military prowess makes Islam stand its feet in line with the reasoning of Ahlu Sunnah?

The Mehdi is yet to come, I don't know who else you're talking about. Some consider him to be part of the twelve others don't, they separate his Era because they Prophet spoke about differently. The hadith stated that Islam would be in a state of izza in their time, this is a very crucial point we must consider. My question is, would there be Qoyimah after Mehdi?

# If the criteria of Ahlu Sunnah in selecting the names of 12 Khalifahs is "assumption to power and military strength", why were the names of all the rest of Banu Abbas, Banu Ummayads Khalifahs not selected? That was the reason why Ahlu sunnah NEVER concluded on the names of their 12 Khalifahs. Ahlu sunnah had tens of Khalifahs till it ended at Ottoman empire.

Every ruler had more virtues than the other, so that's why some were ignored others were picked. Concerning the Ottomans, Sokoto, etc. This rulers acknowledge the fact caliphs are only from Qureysh, that's why most of them preferred to use "Sultan", "Amir" or "Emir", even though they used Caliphs it was used to denote "successor".

# Why did Sunni included Imam Hassan to the list of their 12 Khalifahs who possess power? If al-Hassan (as) truly possess power, why did he abdicated the Khilafah for more "powerful" Mu'awiyah? After all this same Mu'awiyah waged war against Imam Ali (as) at Siffin, yet Ali never rescinded his Khilafah.

Hassan(ra) had power, if he wanted to go to war with Muawiyah(ra) he would have. But Allaah's messenger prophesied about him uniting two groups of Muslims, if you'll agree with me Hassan(ra) was able to raise an army. So he had power and he and father(ra) are among the 12,the question is did the remaining 10 have power and authority?

# Shia believed Islam will continue to stands its feet till al-Qiyamah so long there is presence of Imam or Khalifa or Amir from the offspring of the holy Prophet on earth. Our Twelfth Imam, who is the Imam of the age, is al-Mahdi al-Muntazar.

So who's guiding this Ummah now? Last time I checked your 12th Imam vanished, so who's guiding?

Thanks for adding more bullets to my arsenal. The Ummah of both Nabi Musa and Nabi Muhammad have mixed companions in good and bad. Another identical similarities.

Sorry brother, I don't see how this adds to your ammunition. You implied the sahabas disobeyed the Prophet which is also disobeying Allaah, I said nothing as such. You then tried to compare them with the followers of Musa(as), something the Quran the doesn't agree with you. Anyways, lemme give you more proofs:

Abi Burda reports from his father: He (Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu alaihe wa-sallam)) raised his head toward the heavens and said: "The stars are the protection for the sky - when the stars have gone, that which has been forewarned will come to the sky. I am the protection for my Companions - when I have gone, that which has been forewarned will come to my companions. My Companions are the protection for this Ummah - when they have gone, that which has been forewarned will come to this Ummah." [Saheeh Muslim]

Al-Majlisee narrated a tradition from at-Toosee stating that 'Ali Ibn Abee Talib r.a told his companions: "I advise you not to tease the companions of the prophet s.a.w. They are the companions of those who neither introduced any innovation into the faith nor did they honour innovators. Yes, this is the advice of the prophet s.a.w about them"
Al-Majlisee, Hayyat ul-Quloob (vol. 2), p. 621

Imam Ja'far 'as-Saadiq said:"The companions of the Prophet (SAWA) numbered 12,000. 8000 from Madeenah, 2000 from Makkah, and 2000 from Talakas. None of them was a Qadree, a Marharbee, a Harooree or a Mu'tazilee. None of them held an opinion that clashed with the established tenets of the Qur'an and Sunnah...they spent their nights weeping and praying, "Oh Allah take away our lives before we eat bread"
al-Qummee, Kitaab ul-Khisaal (Tehraan: Maktabah as-Sudooq), p. 640 (all narrators are thiqa/trustworhty).

So brother I suggest you leave the path of Takfeer and Tasfeeq of the Sahabah and accusing them of things that the Ahl Al-Bayt never did, the Sahaba were no Rafidites, no Kharijis, No Murji'ah, No Nawasib, they were upon the right way as Al-Sadiq said, and as his grandfather Muhammad said peace be upon them all.

That is the reason the hadith is explicit and crystal clear emphasising on after me. Prophet knew Harun died before Musa. Harun was older than Musa. He knew Harun was a prophet and there is no other after him (the holy Prophet). Observe, Harun was a natural successor of Musa but Allah had a plan different. Harun died earlier. In contrast, prophet knew Ali is younger than him. He knew Ali will live longer than him. Hence, the Hadith Sherif reads:

This hadith is actually a proof against those who claim Wilayat of Aliyy, because Harun's succession to Musa after Musa's death never happened , and thus this means that Ali's (ra) succession after the Prophet(saw) would not happen. And just as the companion of Prophet Musa (a.s) in his journey to Al-Khidr became his successor after his death (i.e Joshua bin Nun), so also the companion of the Prophet [s.a.w.w] in his journey from Mecca to Medina became his successor.

Let's say for the sake of this argument that this refers to the twelve Imams of the Shia, was Islam in a state of izza during Hussain and Zain Al Abideen's time?!

BeansAndBread:


Not all hijackers are bad, let's say there's a tyrant and the Khalifah is hijacked from him, is it a bad one? That's not the case here, when Ahl Sonnah chose their Caliphs they based it on those who were just. Like Abubakar, Umar, Uthman, Aliyy, Hassan, Muawiyah, Umar Ibn Abdulaziz, etc. This is why it doesn't make sense that Yazeed is to be placed here!

# I have given Sahih Hadith where Ali was appointed as the Waliy of every believers by the Prophet (after him). I also posted hadith in Sahih Muslim where Umar confessed that Ali and Abbas labeled Abu Bakr and himself (Umar) as traitors after they declared themselves the Waliy of the Prophet. Is hijacking position just?

# Mu'awiyah ibn Abi Sufyan was a caller to Hell fire and opposer of Truth according to Sunni Sahih ahadith (I will be glad to share with comments of Sunni Shuyukh, ahadith should you request). He never gave allegiance or accepted the Khilafah of Ali and Hassan ibn Ali (as). Just as he waged war against Hassan's father, he did the same against the son, al-Hassan al-Mujtaba. How can he (Mu'awiyah), a baghi person, be a just and righteous Khalifah with those evil credentials?

Furthermore, Mu'awiyah was a curser of Ali ibn Abi Talib and he established the cursing of Ali (there are Sahih hadith to prove this). I have given you several sahih hadith that cursing Ali is an open passage to hell fire. Yet Mu'awiyah was a pious, legitimate and just Khalifah in your manhaj. Do you really have conscience?!

* When Hassan abdicated the power for a bloodthirsty powermonger Mu'awiyah, the agreement he signed with Hassan was that power should return back to his brother Hussein after Mu'awiyah died if he himself (Hassan) is no more. Mu'awiyah betrayed this agreement and gave his evil son the mantle. Mu'awiyah reign as a Khalifah brought nothing to Islamic history but shame.

# Why do you need to personally remove Yazeed from your 12 lists of Khilafah? Didn't he possess power which is your main criteria of selection? Many of Sunni Ulama included him as many removed him making Sunni so-called list contradictory.

# Selection for Prophethood and its succession belong to Allah alone which is communicated by present Prophet of the time. Evil person will never be legitimate as Khalifah of God on earth.

BeansAndBread:


The Mehdi is yet to come, I don't know who else you're talking about. Some consider him to be part of the twelve others don't, they separate his Era because they Prophet spoke about differently. The hadith stated that Islam would be in a state of izza in their time, this is a very crucial point we must consider. My question is, would there be Qoyimah after Mehdi?

# Any prove that any Ahlu sunnah Ulama counted Mahdi (as) as the 12th Khalifah? Again Sunni have exhausted the list of the 12, who is guiding the affair of Islam with military strength ever since the death of the 12th Sunni Khalifah till date and till "Sunni Mahdi" will arrive or born?

I have a detailed thread on al-Mahdi (as) should you wish to know "Shia Mahdi".

BeansAndBread:


Every ruler had more virtues than the other, so that's why some were ignored others were picked. Concerning the Ottomans, Sokoto, etc. This rulers acknowledge the fact caliphs are only from Qureysh, that's why most of them preferred to use "Sultan", "Amir" or "Emir", even though they used Caliphs it was used to denote "successor".

Why do you keep running away from Hadith Khalifatain? Why? This hadith completely destroyed Sunni Khilafah system. Offspring of the Prophet, the selected Ahlulbayt were the designated Khalifah. Nobody in the Ummah can match them in merits. They have been appointed by Allah and His Prophet and they have unmatched credentials.

BeansAndBread:


Hassan(ra) had power, if he wanted to go to war with Muawiyah(ra) he would have. But Allaah's messenger prophesied about him uniting two groups of Muslims, if you'll agree with me Hassan(ra) was able to raise an army. So he had power and he and father(ra) are among the 12,the question is did the remaining 10 have power and authority?

@underlined, obviously you have not read Islamic history. The military strength of Mu'awiyah was more than Hassan's. People deserted Hassan. Infact how dare Mu'awiyah waging war against an incumbent Khalifah? Indeed Mu'awiyah was a baghi.

* Please go and read Islamic history. Not on google please.

BeansAndBread:


So who's guiding this Ummah now? Last time I checked your 12th Imam vanished, so who's guiding?

Don't you run away from the question I asked you please. It is a question for the Sunni who had exhausted the list of their 12 Khalifah that was promised to ruled till Qiyamat as the hadith says. So the onus is on you to faithfully answer the question.

BeansAndBread:


Sorry brother, I don't see how this adds to your ammunition. You implied the sahabas disobeyed the Prophet which is also disobeying Allaah, I said nothing as such. You then tried to compare them with the followers of Musa(as), something the Quran the doesn't agree with you. Anyways, lemme give you more proofs:

Here's the hadith again:

"Abd Allah ibn Amir: The Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, said: 'Verily, everything that occurred to the offspring of Israil will occur to my Ummah in identical manners, such that if any of them had sexual intercourse with his mother publicly, there will certainly be in my Ummah someone who will do that. Verily, the offspring of Israil divided into seventy-two religions; and my Ummah will divide into seventy-three religions, all of them will be in fire except one religion." They said, "Who are those, O Messenger of Allah?' He replied, "That which I and my Sahabah follow."

# You interpreted this hadith saying the underlined do not include the period of the Sahabah that their period were the best of periods. You blatantly claimed the underlined refer to "Muslims of later generation".

# Again my question are very simple: Were Sahabah part of the Prophet's Ummah or not?

# The hadith further says Prophet's Ummah will split into factions. Were Sahabah divided into factions or not?
Please put your sentiments aside and faithfully answer those questions.

BeansAndBread:


Abi Burda reports from his father: He (Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu alaihe wa-sallam)) raised his head toward the heavens and said: "The stars are the protection for the sky - when the stars have gone, that which has been forewarned will come to the sky. I am the protection for my Companions - when I have gone, that which has been forewarned will come to my companions. My Companions are the protection for this Ummah - when they have gone, that which has been forewarned will come to this Ummah." [Saheeh Muslim]

Al-Majlisee narrated a tradition from at-Toosee stating that 'Ali Ibn Abee Talib r.a told his companions: "I advise you not to tease the companions of the prophet s.a.w. They are the companions of those who neither introduced any innovation into the faith nor did they honour innovators. Yes, this is the advice of the prophet s.a.w about them"
Al-Majlisee, Hayyat ul-Quloob (vol. 2), p. 621

Imam Ja'far 'as-Saadiq said:"The companions of the Prophet (SAWA) numbered 12,000. 8000 from Madeenah, 2000 from Makkah, and 2000 from Talakas. None of them was a Qadree, a Marharbee, a Harooree or a Mu'tazilee. None of them held an opinion that clashed with the established tenets of the Qur'an and Sunnah...they spent their nights weeping and praying, "Oh Allah take away our lives before we eat bread"
al-Qummee, Kitaab ul-Khisaal (Tehraan: Maktabah as-Sudooq), p. 640 (all narrators are thiqa/trustworhty).

So brother I suggest you leave the path of Takfeer and Tasfeeq of the Sahabah and accusing them of things that the Ahl Al-Bayt never did, the Sahaba were no Rafidites, no Kharijis, No Murji'ah, No Nawasib, they were upon the right way as Al-Sadiq said, and as his grandfather Muhammad said peace be upon them all.

All these are distractions. Quran and Sahih ahadith emphatically revealed Sahabah were of different groups. Some were sincere believers and Jannah is their abode. Others were Munafiq, and Hell is their abode. That is the bitter truth Ahlu sunnah knew but not ready to accept.

# NB: If the word "Sahabah" is used in any hadith, you need to consider the context very carefully. For example, Hadith al-Hawd reported by both Sahih Bukhari and Muslim revealed some Sahabah close to the Prophet will apostatize and innovate and on the day of Qiyamat will be shown the way to hellfire. Prophet said he will inquire as to their crime after shouting "My Sahabah! My Sahabah! My Sahabah!" Prophet said he will be told that they Apostatized and Innovated after his demise.

* What does Sahabah meant in this hadith considering its context? Is it the same with the context of Sahabah who does not apostatize and innovated?

# Quran is the only book that separate truth from lies [al-Furqan]. Quran surah Tawbah verses 100-101 revealed the two groups of Sahabah with reward and retributions for each.

BeansAndBread:


This hadith is actually a proof against those who claim Wilayat of Aliyy, because Harun's succession to Musa after Musa's death never happened , and thus this means that Ali's (ra) succession after the Prophet(saw) would not happen. And just as the companion of Prophet Musa (a.s) in his journey to Al-Khidr became his successor after his death (i.e Joshua bin Nun), so also the companion of the Prophet [s.a.w.w] in his journey from Mecca to Medina became his successor.

Again, that was the reason the holy Prophet emphatically concluded the hadith by saying "wa khalifatih fi kulli mu'minin min bahdi - And you (Ali) are my Khalifah over every believer after me".

# The hadith is hadith of Status and Khilafah. That is why if you are to compare Ali and Harun outside "status" be it physical, marital, age, etc they are not compatible. But in Status the were 100%. Harun was the best of Musa's Ummah so was Ali. Quran revealed what Harun was to Musa. Read Quran on that then you will realized what Ali was to Muhammad.

# Prophet had eloquently gave exceptions that might troubled heart and give ambiguity. Exception of prophethood and Harun not succeeding Musa due to death. Hence, prophet clearly declared:
You (Ali) are to me of the status of Harun to Musa except that you are not a prophet. And you (Ali) are my khalifah over every believer after me

Prophet was the best in balagha (eloquence) but people with ulterior motive will always try to create ambiguity.

BeansAndBread:


Let's say for the sake of this argument that this refers to the twelve Imams of the Shia, was Islam in a state of izza during Hussain and Zain Al Abideen's time?!

Observe: Hussein and Ali ibn Hussein were not your concern at all. Until you answer faithfully the following, only then can you open Hussein, and Zainul Abeedin's cases:

# Do you even believe in Hadith Khalifatain that clearly designated the offspring of Muhammad as appointed Khalifah over the Ummah?

# Do you believe in hadith Khalifah and Hadith Wilayah that clearly designated Ali as the first Khalifah?

These three ahadith and more of their genre can never be put aside when considering hadith of the 12 Khalifahs.

ON "IZZA OF ISLAM/UMMAH"
Besides, what "izza of Islam/Ummah" meant have been clearly explained to you in my previous comments (I guess you read it not or do not digest it otherwise you will not continue repeating same).

* You initially talked about "possession of power and military prowess" as criteria of Sunni selection of "true" khalifah since that alone can preserve the "izza" of Islam/Umma. Here, our question again were:

A. How come tens of Khalifahs of Banu Ummayyad, Banu Abbas (who were also Qurayshi as per another criteria in the hadith), how come they did not made the list since they also possess power and military strength that were even greater than many that made the list?

*Interestingly, here you switched to another Sunni criteria - "being Just". And we ask how did Mu'awiyah, a baghi and his cursed son made the list?

B. Another fundamental criteria in the hadith of 12 Khalifahs is that the 12 Khalifahs will reign till Qiyamat comes. Since Sunni laid emphasis on "military prowess" of the Khalifah to guarantee the "izza of Islam /Ummah", and unfortunately they had exhausted their 12 Khalifahs list, who is guiding Islam and Ummah ever since Sunni 12th Khalifah died centuries ago and only Allah knows centuries to come before Mahdi who was not even in Sunni list.

BeansAndBread:


I didn't mention anything concerning Sheikh Ibn Taymiyyah(rah) or did I? So why trying to explain his fatwa? Our case here, is the Prophet said there would be 12 Caliphs in whose time Islam would be in a state of izza. I said this can't be your Imams because only 2 had powers, but you say contrary.

# Obviously you were not able to see my juxtaposition. Sheik ibn Taymiyyah came on board because he was the originator of that theory "that hadith of 12 Khalifahs can never refer to Shia Imams since only one (Imam Ali) had power".

# You are generous enough to add Imam Hassan ibn Ali and I argued with you that Imam Hassan did not possess power that cut across the whole of Islamic states.

So your point and Ibn Taymiyyah point is the same - it cannot be Shia Imams because they were not able to rule by Kingdom.

CLARIFYING YOUR AND IBN TAYMIYYAH CONFUSSION
Quran surah Nisa:54 reads
Or do they envy the people for what Allah has given them of His grace? But indeed We have given to Ibrahim's offspring (Ahli Ibrahim) the Book and the wisdom, and We have given them a grand kingdom (Mulkan Azeem)

# From Ismail, Ishaq, Yunus, Lut, Yaqub, Yusuf, Bilyamin, to Musa, Harun, Dawud, Sulaiman Zakariyah, Yahya, Isa. These are few I was able to mention from the Ahli Ibrahim. Why was it that ONLY the bold (Dawud and Sulaiman) possessed Great Kingdom and the rest were not yet Allah says He has given them (Ahli Ibrahim - Ibrahim progeny/offspring) Great Kingdom? Should we render null and void the Offspring-ship, the Imamah-ship of all these Prophets that were not able to rule with Kingdom not to mention Grand Kingdom?

# Shia pride so much in "Hadith Salat": 'O Allah! Bless Muhammad and Ahli Muhammad in exactly the same manner You have blessed Ibrahim and Ahli Ibrahim '. In this hadith, according to Quran, following were bestowed to Ibrahim offspring:

* Imamah over mankind

* Istafa (Preference/Chosen) over mankind

* Divine book, Prophethood, Hikma (wisdom), Great Kingdom

# Again, Only Dawud and Sulaiman ruled by great kingdom. Apart from Prophethood which ended with Muhammad, Ahli Muhammad showed similar characteristics in all. Only Ali and al-Mahdi ruled (will rule) by Great Kingdom.

Lastly, Shia sincerely believed that whether an Imam/Khalifah appointed by Allah and His Prophet was recognized or not, whether accepted or not, their presence which brings Lutf (grace) is enough for the preservation and domination of Islam till Qiyamat.

Allah has promised Islam to prevail and dominate over ALL religion in different places of the Quran. This ability of it to stand till Qiyamat is its "Izza".

BeansAndBread:


Moreover, none of the Imams ever claimed, I'm the first, second, sixth, etc Imams. Today many Sunnis fall into the trap that the Shia has 12 imams, this is false.

In your fantasy world. Even there is Sunni secondary source "Yanabiul Mawada" of al-Qunduzi al-Hanafi which documents that Prophet exclusively named all the 12 Imams by name. The best Ahlu sunnah Ulama could do was casting doubt to the "Sunnism" of al-Qunduzi Hanafi thereby paving way to reject his voluminous book of ahadith.

# As per Shia sources, ahadith plenty by which an imam designate another Imam before he died and other hadith, Prophet named all the 12 Khalifahs/Imams after him.

BeansAndBread:

.

Whilst one category of hadith says those 12 Khalifahs will rule by kingdom, another category explain the "kingdom" to be "al-Wilayah".

Imam Muslim documents:

Jabir b. Samurah: I heard the Prophet (s)saying: “The affairs of humanity will never cease to continue as long as twelve men rule them by WILAYAH.” ...All of them will be from Quraysh"

Ref: Sahih Muslim, vol. 3, p. 1452, # 1821

Questions:

1. Affairs of humanity is still on going, who is Sunni's Khalifah from Quraysh ruling with either "kingdom-ship or Wilayah?"

2. What is "al-Wilayah?

Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim. As salaamu alaykum. This is a welcomed thread. I have much to read. Some post's I've copied to read later, but I do appreciate the effort of the poster's. I didn't complete reading the entire thread, but choose to post the following video, as someone may not know what happened to the Prophet Muhammad's (SAW), progeny. Scroll to part 39.


https://archive.org/details/TheArrivalsRevised

# Mu'awiyah ibn Abi Sufyan was a caller to Hell fire and opposer of Truth according to Sunni Sahih ahadith (I will be glad to share with comments of Sunni Shuyukh, ahadith should you request). He never gave allegiance or accepted the Khilafah of Ali and Hassan ibn Ali (as). Just as he waged war against Hassan's father, he did the same against the son, al-Hassan al-Mujtaba. How can he (Mu'awiyah), a baghi person, be a just and righteous Khalifah with those evil credentials?

Allah says in Surat Al-Hujurat, verse 9, "If two parties among the Believers fall into a quarrel, make ye peace between them: but if one of them transgresses beyond bounds against the other, then fight ye (all) against the one that transgresses until it complies with the Command of Allah; but if it complies, then make peace between them with justice, and be fair: for Allah loves those who are fair (and just)."

This is why I said the sahabas made mistakes, probably based on wrong Ijtehad. Muawiyah(ra) reason for not pledging allegiance was not because of the Caliphate even though he was wrong, he was the cousin of Uthman and he wanted revenge against the killers who probably were in Aliyy(ra) camp, but nevertheless, the way you're portraying isn't even the way the Ahl Beyt portrayed him. He was wrong for fighting Ali(ra).

"I know he is better than I am, and he has the right to rule, but do not you know that Uthman was killed as an innocent? And I am his cousin and the seeker of his revenge." [Authenticated by Ibn Hajr in Fath al Bari (13/ 92)]

Furthermore, Mu'awiyah was a curser of Ali ibn Abi Talib and he established the cursing of Ali (there are Sahih hadith to prove this). I have given you several sahih hadith that cursing Ali is an open passage to hell fire. Yet Mu'awiyah was a pious, legitimate and just Khalifah in your manhaj. Do you really have conscience?!

Muawiya RA said to Yazeed: Do honor his (i.e Hussain’s) relation to the Prophet(saw) because you should know that his father is better than your father and his mother is better than your mother. (Maqtal abi makhnaf p. 19.)

This is why delving into their matters is to be avoided. Muawiyah(ra) fought against Aliyy(ra), this is worse than insulting. We have authentic reports that both parties fought each-other with the sword and you're concerned about if they verbally abused or criticized each-other? That's why it's called a Fitnah, Mu'awiyah (ra) criticized 'Ali (ra) for issues of Qasas and 'Ali (ra) criticized Mu'awiyah (ra) for not giving him allegiance and obeying him. Yet Muawiyah(ra) was a pious, faqih sahabi who ruled the Ummah after Hassan(ra).

Even that aside, Imam An-Nawawi explained this scenario, hope you can look into it. The explanation of Imam An-Nawawi makes a lot of sense.

# Why do you need to personally remove Yazeed from your 12 lists of Khilafah? Didn't he possess power which is your main criteria of selection? Many of Sunni Ulama included him as many removed him making Sunni so-called list contradictory.

There was fitna during Yazeed's time, this is why he's excluded. I repeat that the Prophet didn't mention any name so any list is an assumption, even your list is an assumption. What of other Imams, why exclude them?!

# Any prove that any Ahlu sunnah Ulama counted Mahdi (as) as the 12th Khalifah? Again Sunni have exhausted the list of the 12, who is guiding the affair of Islam with military strength ever since the death of the 12th Sunni Khalifah till date and till "Sunni Mahdi" will arrive or born?

Al Suyuti(rah) counted Imam Mahdi. @underlined, what are you saying? Did the hadith state that there would be only 12 Caliphs till Qoyima?

Concerning your Mahdi thread, I read it to the very end and you messed up big time.

Why do you keep running away from Hadith Khalifatain? Why? This hadith completely destroyed Sunni Khilafah system. Offspring of the Prophet, the selected Ahlulbayt were the designated Khalifah. Nobody in the Ummah can match them in merits. They have been appointed by Allah and His Prophet and they have unmatched credentials.

We're not discussing Khalifatain here, you say the hadith of twelve caliphs refers to your Shia Imams. OK the hadith stated that Islam would be at izza during their period, so my question is was Islam in a state of izza during Hussain(ra) and Zain Al Abideen's time? Was Islam in a state of izza when the mongols and crusaders during the reign of Mahdi?! Simple question brother!

@underlined, obviously you have not read Islamic history. The military strength of Mu'awiyah was more than Hassan's. People deserted Hassan. Infact how dare Mu'awiyah waging war against an incumbent Khalifah? Indeed Mu'awiyah was a baghi.

Narrated Al-hasan Al-Basri: By Allah, Al-hasan bin Ali led large battalions like mountains against Muawiya. Amr bin Al-As said (to Muawiya), "I surely see battalions which will not turn back before killing their opponents." Muawiya who was really the best of the two men said to him, "O 'Amr! If these killed those and those killed these, who would be left with me for the jobs of the public, who would be left with me for their women, who would be left with me for their children?" Then Muawiya sent two Quraishi men from the tribe of 'Abd-i-Shams called 'Abdur Rahman bin Sumura and Abdullah bin 'Amir bin Kuraiz to Al-hasan saying to them, "Go to this man (i.e. Al-hasan) and negotiate peace with him and talk and appeal to him." So, they went to Al-hasan and talked and appealed to him to accept peace. Al-hasan said, "We, the offspring of 'Abdul Muttalib, have got wealth and people have indulged in killing and corruption." They said to Al-hasan, "Muawiya offers you so and so, and appeals to you and entreats you to accept peace." Al-hasan said to them, "But who will be responsible for what you have said?" They said, "We will be responsible for it." So, what-ever Al-hasan asked they said, "We will be responsible for it for you." So, Al-hasan concluded a peace treaty with Muawiya. Al-hasan (Al-Basri) said: I heard Abu Bakr saying, "I saw Allah's Apostle on the pulpit and Al-hasan bin 'Ali was by his side. The Prophet was looking once at the people and once at Al-hasan bin 'Ali saying, 'This son of mine is a Saiyid (i.e. a noble) and may Allah make peace between two big groups of muslims through him." (Bukhari Book #49, Hadith #867) 

Don't you run away from the question I asked you please. It is a question for the Sunni who had exhausted the list of their 12 Khalifah that was promised to ruled till Qiyamat as the hadith says. So the onus is on you to faithfully answer the question.

You didn't ask me any questions rather I've been asking you, something you've been going around since. You stated:

"# Shia believed Islam will continue to stands its feet till al-Qiyamah so long there is presence of Imam or Khalifa or Amir from the offspring of the holy Prophet on earth. Our Twelfth Imam, who is the Imam of the age, is al-Mahdi al-Muntazar."

And I replied:

"So who's guiding this Ummah now? Last time I checked your 12th Imam vanished, so who's guiding? "

# You interpreted this hadith saying the underlined do not include the period of the Sahabah that their period were the best of periods. You blatantly claimed the underlined refer to "Muslims of later generation".

You tried criticising the sahabas by claiming they didn't obey the Prophet something I refuted the verses of the Glorious Quran. You then tried to portray the sahabas as being hypocrites(nauzubillah). The stance of Ahl Sonnah on the Sahabah is: The Muslim-Sunni definition (not the linguistic one) is that only those who believed AND died upon belief are considered Sahaba (hence it excludes all Munafiqs and apostates). So although the Sunni asks Allah to be pleased with all Sahaba (those who accompanied the Prophet), yet as a Muslim he obviously intends only the real Sahaba (Abu Bakr, Omar, Othman, Ali, Abbas etc. and not Ibn Salul etc.!)

Again, that was the reason the holy Prophet emphatically concluded the hadith by saying "wa khalifatih fi kulli mu'minin min bahdi - And you (Ali) are my Khalifah over every believer after me".

We need to understand the context of this hadith, the Prophet made this proclamation when he left for Tabuk. While we know that the Prophet has made other people his deputy's such as Ibn Um Maktum (Ra) over Medina in the Battle of Kuraitha and Usaid Ibn Attab (Ra) over Makkah in the battle of Hunain and others. Thus we realize that this comparison can only be specific in this particular context of the Battle of Tabuk and is not general and cannot be used to prove Ali's Khilafah after the Prophet [saw].

As I've said severally that this cannot be a proof for Aliyy's Wilayah because Harun(as) didn't succeed Musa(as) but Yoosha(as) I gave a reason for this in my last post. But if one wanted to compare Ali [ra] like Harun(as) in all aspects except Prophethood then we can also compare Abu Bakr to Ibrahim and Umar to Nuh in all aspects except prophethood:

Narrated Ibn Masud and Ibn Abbas -May Allah be pleased with them- that the Prophet : O Abu Bakr you are like Ibrahim -Alyhi Assalam- when he said: " then who follows my (ways) is of me, and he that disobeys me, but Thou art indeed Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful" [14:36] and the likeness of you O Umar is to Nuh when he said: " "O my Lord! Leave not of the Unbelievers, a single one on earth! " [71:26] (Narrated by Ibn Abi Asim , Ahmed and Al-Tabarani)

Which proves that Abu Bakr(ra) and Umar(ra) are the rightful successors , since they have been compared to Prophets Ibrahim and Nuh respectively who are of the five Ulu-Al-azm of the Prophets , the best from amongst all prophets, while Ali [ra] was only compared to Harun who is of a lesser status than Ibrahim, Nuh, Musa , Essa and Muhammad.

Observe: Hussein and Ali ibn Hussein were not your concern at all. Until you answer faithfully the following, only then can you open Hussein, and Zainul Abeedin's cases:

Here's the the different opinions of scholars on how they made their individual list: http://https://islamqa.info/en/146316

I have been asking you this question ever since but you've refused to answer me. If this hadith applies to your Imams, was islam in a state of izza in Hussain(ra) and Zain Al Abide Ed's time? Was islam in a state of izza when the mongols and crusaders attacked during Mahdi reign?!

In your fantasy world. Even there is Sunni secondary source "Yanabiul Mawada" of al-Qunduzi al-Hanafi which documents that Prophet exclusively named all the 12 Imams by name. The best Ahlu sunnah Ulama could do was casting doubt to the "Sunnism" of al-Qunduzi Hanafi thereby paving way to reject his voluminous book of ahadith.

Al Qunduzi Hanafi is not a Sunni but a Shia or probably a Mu'tazila or other Sect but definitely not a Sunni

Whilst one category of hadith says those 12 Khalifahs will rule by kingdom, another category explain the "kingdom" to be "al-Wilayah".

Imam Muslims' narration you refer to is this:

It has been reported on the authority of Jabir b. Samura who said:
I heard the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) say: The affairs of the people will continue to be conducted (well) as long as they are governed by twelve men. Then the Prophet (ﷺ) said words which were obscure to me. I asked my father: What did the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) say? He said: All of the (twelve men) will be from the Quraish.

This narration compliments the one below, that's why it named #1821b. The narration of Muslim never stated "Wilayah" but مَا وَلِيَهُمُ "Maa Waliyahum" and everything has been translated accordingly. No conspiracy theories!

It has been narrated on the authority of Jabir b. Samura who said:
I joined the company of the Prophet (ﷺ) with my father and I heard him say: This Caliphate will not end until there have been twelve Caliphs among them. The narrator said: Then he (the Holy Prophet) said something that I could not follow. I said to my father: What did he say? He said: He has said: All of them will be from the Quraish.

Allah has promised Islam to prevail and dominate over ALL religion in different places of the Quran. This ability of it to stand till Qiyamat is its "Izza".

Ever since I've been having discussions with Shias they've always pointed out that Islam was in a state of "thila" (humiliation), but when the hadith of the 12 caliph sprung out, Islam is suddenly in a state of izza, now how is giving the rule to Mu'awiyah "izza"? How is Al Hussain being killed "izza"? THIS ITSELF LEADS TO ANOTHER OPENING!

Was Islam in a state of" izza" in Yazeed's time?

BeansAndBread:


You tried criticising the sahabas by claiming they didn't obey the Prophet something I refuted the verses of the Glorious Quran. You then tried to portray the sahabas as being hypocrites(nauzubillah). The stance of Ahl Sonnah on the Sahabah is: The Muslim-Sunni definition (not the linguistic one) is that only those who believed AND died upon belief are considered Sahaba (hence it excludes all Munafiqs and apostates). So although the Sunni asks Allah to be pleased with all Sahaba (those who accompanied the Prophet), yet as a Muslim he obviously intends only the real Sahaba (Abu Bakr, Omar, Othman, Ali, Abbas etc. and not Ibn Salul etc.!)

@Bold, please be fair with me and do not try to earn cheap sympathy by pulling that stunt. My point is exclusively clear: There are righteous among the Sahabah [surah Tawbah: 100] and there were hypocrites who will rotten in hell among them [surah Tawbah: 101]. Here you trying to paint as if I criticized ALL sahabah. That's very disappointing.

@ bold, if you ever thought you "refute", you simply quoted verses in praises of the righteous Sahabah which I can never have problem with. But you are the villain here for not recognizing the "innovators, the apostates and the Munafiq" among the Sahabah as "Sahabah". This led to your definition which has no basis.

Your Definition of Sahabah @underlined.
Whilst you try to remove the "innovators and apostates" from the fold of "Sahabah", the holy Prophet himself recognized those sinners and hell bound as his "Sahabah".

# Imam Bukhari (d. 256 H):

Aḥmad b. Salih – Ibn Wahb – Yunus – Ibn Shihab – Ibn al-Musayyab, who used to narrate from the Sahabah of the Prophet, peace be upon him, that the Prophet, peace be upon him, said:

Some men from MY SAHABAH will come to my Lake-Fount and they will be driven away from it. So, I will say, “O my Lord, my Sahabah . It will be said, “You have no knowledge of what they INNOVATED after you: they turned APOSTATES

Ref: al-Jami al-Sahih al-Mukhtaṣar (Beirut: Dar Ibn Kathir; 3rd edition, 1407 H) [annotator: Dr. Mustafa Dib al-Bagha], vol. 5, p. 2407, # 6214

# Imam Muslim (d. 261 H):

Anas b. Malik: The Prophet, peace be upon him, said, “Some persons from amongst those who kept me company will meet me at the Lake-Fount. I will see them, and they will be presented to me. Then, they will be forced away from me. I will say: ‘O my Lord, my Sahabah! My Sahabah. It will be said to me: ‘You do not know what they INNOVATED after you.’”

Ref: Sahih Muslim (Beirut: Dar Iḥya al-Turath al-‘Arabi) [annotator: Muḥammad Fuad ‘Abd al-Baqi], vol. 4, p. 1800, # 2304(40)

# Imam Ahmad:

Abu Sa’id al-Khudri: The Prophet, peace be upon him, said: “So, I will say, ‘My Sahabah! My Sahabah!’ It will be said, ‘You do not know what they INNOVATED after you.’ Then I will say, ‘Woe, woe to whoever changed after me.’”

Al-Arnaut says: Ṣaḥih

Ref: Abu ‘Abd Allah Aḥmad b. Ḥanbal al-Shaybani, Musnad (Cairo: Muasassat Qurtubah) [annotator: Shu’ayb al-Arnaut], vol. 3, p. 28, # 11236

# Imam Bukhari further documents:

Abu Hurayrah, that he used to say: The Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, said: On the Day of al-Qiyamat,a group from my Sahabah will meet me. But, they will be driven away from the Lake-Fount. So, I will say, “O my Lord! My Sahabah!” Then, He will say, “You have no knowledge of what they INNOVATED after you: they turned APOSTATES.

Ref: al-Jami al-Sahih al-Mukhtaṣar (Beirut: Dar Ibn Kathir; 3rd edition, 1407 H) [annotator: Dr. Mustafa Dib al-Bagha], vol. 5, p. 2407, # 6213

This is hadith al-hawd which put your "Sunni-Muslim" definition of Sahabah to where it belongs - in the trash can.

BeansAndBread:


We need to understand the context of this hadith, the Prophet made this proclamation when he left for Tabuk. While we know that the Prophet has made other people his deputy's such as Ibn Um Maktum (Ra) over Medina in the Battle of Kuraitha and Usaid Ibn Attab (Ra) over Makkah in the battle of Hunain and others. Thus we realize that this comparison can only be specific in this particular context of the Battle of Tabuk and is not general and cannot be used to prove Ali's Khilafah after the Prophet [saw].

Again, here you are playing the failed Ibn Taymiyyah's card as he restricted the information of "hadith Khilafah" to "Ali's governorate of Madinah", and not "after the demise of the Prophet".

Observe: Hadith Khilafah comes in three Sighas (versions). One version has already been explicitly quoted for you which is in Imam Ibn Asim's "Kitab Sunnah" authenticated as Sahih by al-Albani and others. This first version made no mention of Tabuk event. Second version is in Imam Ahmad's Musnad and it mentions Tabuk event. And the third version is here below:

# Imam Nisai (d. 303 H):
...He (the Messenger of Allah) went out with the people for the battle of Tabuk. So, Ali said to him, "Let me go out with you". Therefore, he (the Prophet) said, "Do not weep, Ali. Are you not pleased that you are to me of the status of Harun to Musa with the exception that you are not a prophet? You are my Khalifah, that is, over every believer after me."
Ref: Sunan al-Kubra (Beirut: Dar al-kutub al-Illmiyyah, 1st edition, 1411 H)[annotator: Dr. Abd al-Ghaffar Sulayman al-Bandari and Sayyid kasrawi Hassan], vol. 5, p. 112, #8409.

CLARIFYING YOUR FANTASY
This third version distinctly differentiate "Ali's governorate of Madinah" and "Prophet declaring him as his Khalifah over every believer after him."

Observe: Ali had been deputized as governor of Madinah while the Prophet journey for Tabuk. Ali weep for leaving him behind as "Madinah's governor" instead of accompanied the Prophet to battlefield.

First, the Prophet wanted to tell Ali something to make him happy, considering the later's deep distress over his appointment as governor of Madinah. How then would he have still mentioned that same governorate (of Madinah) to cheer him up? Does that make any sense?

Second, the prophet specifically indicated that the Khilafah he was speaking about would be over the entire Ummah after him. This certainly is different from governorate of Madinah, which was over a tiny portion of the Ummah while the Messenger of Allah was still alive! How on earth did you miss this simple, clear difference?

# Hadith al-Wilayah is exactly the same. And it states that Prophet sent some Sahabah led by Ali to address a pressing matter. These people quarrel with Ali and they came back to the holy Prophet criticizing Ali's judgment. Prophet exclaimed: Do not find fault with Ali. He is your Wali after me. I have quoted a version of this hadith for you before, and supported it with another hadith in Sahih Muslim where Abu Bakr and Umar declared themselves as Prophet's Wali after the later demise making Ali and Abbas labeled them as "Traitor, liar and sinful".

The fear is obviously understood. Should Sunni accept the hadith Khilafah to mean "after the demise of the Prophet", the Khilafah-ship of the first three Khulafau will be null and void; and Sunnism will collapsed.

BeansAndBread:


As I've said severally that this cannot be a proof for Aliyy's Wilayah because Harun(as) didn't succeed Musa(as) but Yoosha(as) I gave a reason for this in my last post.

Obviously you understand the Hadith Khilafah because it is as clear as daylight but you have a responsibility to protect Sunni Khilafah validity of the first three Khulafau.

The fact that Harun did not succeed Musa made the holy Prophet voiced out immediately after saying Harun and Ali's STATUS are the same except for Nubuwah: And You (Ali) are my Khalifah OVER every believer AFTER ME (min bahdi).

There is no hanky panky in this noble hadith.

BeansAndBread:


But if one wanted to compare Ali [ra] like Harun(as) in all aspects except Prophethood

@underlined, please do not distort the hadith. Prophet never said in ALL ASPECTS except Prophethood rather his statement is Comparison in STATUS. Harun was the best believer, most pious and ascetic in entire Musa's Ummah; Harun was the chosen brother to aid and strengthen Musa's mission; Harun was the Wazir of Musa; and being WAZIR of Musa made him natural successor to Musa but unfortunately died before Musa. Then Prophet noticing this "anomaly" declared: And You (Ali) are my Khalifah OVER every believer AFTER ME (min bahdi).

BeansAndBread:


then we can also compare Abu Bakr to Ibrahim and Umar to Nuh in all aspects except prophethood:

Narrated Ibn Masud and Ibn Abbas -May Allah be pleased with them- that the Prophet : O Abu Bakr you are like Ibrahim -Alyhi Assalam- when he said: " then who follows my (ways) is of me, and he that disobeys me, but Thou art indeed Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful" [14:36] and the likeness of you O Umar is to Nuh when he said: " "O my Lord! Leave not of the Unbelievers, a single one on earth! " [71:26] (Narrated by Ibn Abi Asim , Ahmed and Al-Tabarani)

Which proves that Abu Bakr(ra) and Umar(ra) are the rightful successors , since they have been compared to Prophets Ibrahim and Nuh respectively who are of the five Ulu-Al-azm of the Prophets , the best from amongst all prophets, while Ali [ra] was only compared to Harun who is of a lesser status than Ibrahim, Nuh, Musa , Essa and Muhammad.

@bold, What a weird conclusion?! So disappointing.

# If you were to compare Abu Bakr and Umar with Nabi Ibrahim and Nabi Nuh in all aspects except Nubuwah, does that meant Nabi Ibrahim (as) was also a polytheist before embracing Islam (nauthubillah) as the Sheikhain were?

# If you were to compare Abu Bakr and Umar in all aspects except Nubuwah, does that meant the offspring of Abu bakr and Umar were chosen and appointed as Imam Above mankind (after their father, Ibrahim, was made Imam when he passed all tests with flying colours); and does that also meant Abu Bakr and Umar with their offspring were given Hikmah, and grand Kingdom?

#* Observe the above Sunni hadith, apart from the fact that it made no mention of your fantasy ("in all aspects except prophethood), is very precise and specific in the area of likeness @underlined: "WHEN HE SAID".

Brother that conclusion of yours is weird, desperate and disappointing. Please forgive my statements if it hurts.

BeansAndBread:


Allah says in Surat Al-Hujurat, verse 9, "If two parties among the Believers fall into a quarrel, make ye peace between them: but if one of them transgresses beyond bounds against the other, then fight ye (all) against the one that transgresses until it complies with the Command of Allah; but if it complies, then make peace between them with justice, and be fair: for Allah loves those who are fair (and just)."

@Abovementioned Ayat Sherif, so does Mu'awiyah ibn Abi Sufyan then complied to the Command of Allah by paying allegiance to Ali ibn Abi Talib as his "Rightly Guided Khalifah"? Ali defeated Mu'awiyyah and his Baghi group yet he resurface in causing another fitnah after the demise of Ali - against al-Hassan. Therefore, That Ayat Sherif only imply if the two parties were believers. In this case of Mu'awiyah and Ali, it was a case of Hypocrisy vs Belief.

# There is a clear text [sahih hadith] that the holy Prophet said Ali will fight for the Ta'wil (interpretation) of the Quran as he himself (the Prophet) fought for the Tanzil (revelation) of the Quran. Quran declared that only those whose heart is filled with diseases "fight" the right Ta'wil of the Quran to suit their evil plan in cursing fitnah [surah Ahli Imran: 7]

BeansAndBread:


This is why I said the sahabas made mistakes, probably based on wrong Ijtehad. Muawiyah(ra) reason for not pledging allegiance was not because of the Caliphate even though he was wrong, he was the cousin of Uthman and he wanted revenge against the killers who probably were in Aliyy(ra) camp, but nevertheless, the way you're portraying isn't even the way the Ahl Beyt portrayed him. He was wrong for fighting Ali(ra).

First, that underlined statement is not yours rather it was the consensus of Ahlu Sunnah Ulama after declaring that Mu'awiyah was wrong for waging war against Ali. So in this context, avoid using "the sahabah" rather use "Mu'awiyah and his Baghi group".

As per Mistakes, here's what our Lord says:

"Verily, Fir'aun and Haman and their soldiers were people who made mistakes"[Q.28:8]

"They said, "O our father! Ask forgiveness for our sins. Indeed we have been people who made mistakes [Q.12:97]

"We have believed in our Lord, that He may forgive us our mistakes."[Q.20:73]

The defence of mistakes can never work as a shield for culpability for crimes. Alright! Lets take it as a valid excuse (in opposition to the Quran), Mu'awiyah and his Baghi armies still have a lot to answer for. They murdered Ammar ibn Yassir and several other righteous soldiers of Imam Ali.

Again let us say this Baghi group had mistakenly killed those pious people. Still, there is a clear provision for that in the Quran. Allah says:

"And it does not behoove a believer to kill a believer except by mistake, and whoever kills a believer by mistake, he should free a believing slave, and blood-money should be paid to his people unless they remit it as alms; but if he be from a tribe hostile to you and he is a believer, the freeing of a believing slave (suffices), and if he is from a tribe between whom and you there is a convenant, the blood-money should be paid to his people along with the freeing of a believing slave; but he who cannot find (a slave) should fast for two months successively: a penance from Allah, and Allah is Knowing, Wise.

And whoever kills a believer intentionally, his punishment is hell; he shall abide in it, and Allah will send His wrath on him and curse him and prepare for him a painful chastisement. [Q.4:92-93]

Even if you killed a believer by mistake, you must still seek "Allah's repentance" by setting free a slave for each of life mistakenly killed, and pay compensation to the families of the deceased. If you were unable to do these, then you are to fast for two consecutive months (per head mistakenly killed). Without these there is absolutely no forgiveness for "mistake" killing of believers

# For sure Mu'awiyah and his Baghi group never did any of these. How could they when the holy Prophet labeled them as "CALLER OF HELL"?! According to Quran a "Caller of hell-Fire" is Kafir.

BeansAndBread:


"I know he is better than I am, and he has the right to rule, but do not you know that Uthman was killed as an innocent? And I am his cousin and the seeker of his revenge." [Authenticated by Ibn Hajr in Fath al Bari (13/ 92)]

Muawiya RA said to Yazeed: Do honor his (i.e Hussain’s) relation to the Prophet(saw) because you should know that his father is better than your father and his mother is better than your mother. (Maqtal abi makhnaf p. 19.)

According to these two reports, Mu'awiyah believed Ali is better than him. But we may ask better than him in what? Does that include "ruling with justice and equity as per the law of God and Sunnah of His Prophet?" If the answer is yes, then perhaps Mu'awiyah regretted fighting Ali and killing innocent believers which he never sought repentance for.

# The question then is why did the same Mu'awiyah wage war against al-Hassan after Ali died? Was he continuing the "revenge mission" of his cousin Uthman or wrestling the Khilafah for himself?

BeansAndBread:


This is why delving into their matters is to be avoided. Muawiyah(ra) fought against Aliyy(ra), this is worse than insulting.
We have authentic reports that both parties fought each-other with the sword and you're concerned about if they verbally abused or criticized each-other? That's why it's called a Fitnah, Mu'awiyah (ra) criticized 'Ali (ra) for issues of Qasas and 'Ali (ra) criticized Mu'awiyah (ra) for not giving him allegiance and obeying him. Yet Muawiyah(ra) was a pious, faqih sahabi who ruled the Ummah after Hassan(ra).

Even that aside, Imam An-Nawawi explained this scenario, hope you can look into it. The explanation of Imam An-Nawawi makes a lot of sense.

# If truly Mu'awiyah believed Ali to be better than him, why did he establish the CURSING OF ALI during his Khilafah, ordering people to do that?

# Imam Muslim reports:

Amir b. Sa'd b. Abi Waqqas reported on the authority of his father that:

Muawiya (b. Abi Sufyan) commanded Sa'd (ibn Abi Waqqas), and said, "What prevented you from CURSING Abu al-Turab (i.e 'Ali b. Abi Talib)? So, he (Sa'd) replied: It is because of three things which I remember Allah's Messenger (s) having said about him..."
Ref: {Sahih Muslim (Beirut: Dar Ihya al-Turath al-Arabi)[annotator: Muhammad Fu'ad Abd al-Baqi], vol. 4, p. 1870, #2404(32)}

History [Imam Tabari in his Tarikh, Baladhuri in his Ansab al-Ashraf, Ibn Athir in his al-Kamil] had it that during the Khilafah of Mu'awiyah and his Ummayad successors the practice of cursing Ali was forced down the throat of Muslims and it became a widely spread Bid'ah to the extent that history says many generations used to think Ali ibn Abi Talib was a Kafir.

Imam Nasai met this practice in Sham (Syria), Mu'awiyah's headquarter (during his Khilafah), and wrote a book called "Khasais Ali" where he collected several ahadith on fadhail Ali, to redress the age long Bid'ah established by Mu'awiyyah.

Implication of Cursing Ali
# Imam Ahmad (d. 241 H) documents:

Abu Abd Allah al-Jaladi: I entered upon Umm Salamah and she said to me, "Is the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, being cursed among you?" I said, "Allah forbid or Glory be to Allah" or a similar statement. She said, "I heard the Messenger of Allah saying, "Whosoever curses Ali has cursed me."

Sheik Shuaib al-Arnaut: Its chain is Sahih

Ref: Musnad (Cairo: Muasassat Qurtubah)[annotator: Shuaib al-Arnaut], vol.6, p.323, #26791.

BeansAndBread:


There was fitna during Yazeed's time, this is why he's excluded. I repeat that the Prophet didn't mention any name so any list is an assumption, even your list is an assumption. What of other Imams, why exclude them?!

Yazeed ibn Mu'awiyah was a Kafir and first class Jahanam leader.

# As per your claim that Prophet didn't mention name (of his Khalifahs) making the list in assumptions. I begged you in the name of Allah to interpret the hadith Khalifatain and hadith Thaqalain:

* Prophet reported to have said: "O mankind! I leave over amongst you TWO KHALIFAHS (KHALIFATAIN), the Book of Allah...and my Offspring, my Ahlulbayt."

* Prophet also said: "O mankind! I leave over amongst you TWO WEIGHTY THINGS (THAQALAIN), so long you adhere to it you will never go astray: The Book of Allah and my Offspring, my Ahlulbayt".

NB: I will be more than glad posting ALL the versions of these two thunderbolt ahadith if you request.