nferyn:

This issue about the Holy Trinity is actually quite funny. If you go back to earlier sources, prior to the establishment of the Catholic Church, especially in the Gnostic Gospels, the trinity is more than the union of father, son and holy spirit. It is the unity of the masculine (father), feminine (spirit) and intermediary (son). The original Hebrew term for ghost was ruah, which is definitely feminine. During the council of Nicea, ruah [/i]was translated into the Greek [i]pneuma, which is gender neutral.
Islam, which had access to Original Christian text that were either burned or lost by the Catholic Church made a correct interpretation of the Trinity as a unity of God-Jesus-Mary.

Please continue your discussion on the sex of angels... oops... i meant to say whether or not Catholics are born again

You may be right nferyn, but we are not Hebrews to follow the Hebrew meaning are we? We are Christians and according to the Christians, the Holy Trinity is God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, regardless of what the Hebrew or any other meaning had or has

goodguy:

Good.. he wasn't ready to do anything yet because it wasn't his time to do anything. They never 'asked' mary as you claim. The Bible says,"when they wanted wine..." not "when they 'asked' mary..."
It was Mary herself that saw that these people were in need of wine. Jesus equally knew as well (since He is all-knowing). But he said it wasn't his hour yet. Stop thinking that it was due to what his mother said that made him perform the miracle. As you said, the Bible didn't specify the time difference between when Jesus said that and when he performed the miracle. Which means he performed the miracle at the appointed hour, not when his mother asked him to. Remember, no one knew whether Jesus was a messiah or not as at that time, since he had not performed a single miracle before then. So why then would they have asked Mary to tell her son to perform a miracle for them since they didn't even know who her son was.

i tire for you. there are 4 books of the gospel. read all of them.

medube:

You may be right nferyn, but we are not Hebrews to follow the Hebrew meaning are we? We are Christians and according to the Christians, the Holy Trinity is God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, regardless of what the Hebrew or any other meaning had or has

I am talking about what the majority of Christian Churches were thinking before the establishment of the Catholic Church by Emporor Justinianus. Before the Gnostics were hunted down and exterminated by the orthodox catholics with state approval

Do you actually mean that, if you make a translation error, you would rather relie on the erronous translation than on the original text?

c0dec:

i tire for you. there are 4 books of the gospel. read all of them.

Well, i'm quoting from one of them..

i dunno and i cant really say coz
im not a catholic.

@ Eddy regarding your list of ‘characteristics’ (for want of a better word) of a born again, do you sincerely believe that fulfilling all those requirements is a factor of the church you attend? Remember those conditions were revealed even before the Roman Catholic Church came into existence (and we all know that it is the oldest church in world), much less the present day Pentecostal churches that are fervently advocating being born again.

With reference to your point on idolatry, I will agree that some Catholics go a bit overboard with their reverence of Mary but I think Medube has a point when he talked about people who love their pastors ‘too much’, people talk like their pastors, dress like them and would swallow anything they say hook, line and sinker without questioning it just because he is the pastor. I am anything but judgmental but how else would you rationalize a pastor getting divorced, his flock justifying it? Bottom-line… most Christians are guilty of idolatry in some form.

I have read and read and tried not to post, but i just couldn't resist.

I am a born and baptised catholic.
I believe in Jesus and accept him as my lord and saviour. (this did not happen when i went to a 'church' and a 'pastor', in a Gucci suit, pushed my head for me to fall down and speak jibberish...i meant tongues )
I made a choice as an adult to do this and i try to live my life that way...it is not always easy believe me.

What gets me most is peoples obsession with questioning the practices of the catholic church.
I choose to honour Mary for she was the mother of Jesus on earth. If i feel she can interceed for me, why would that bother you?

As for the water into wine incident, don't get me started. they did not ask Mary to interceed...Puleeze!
I don't read the lines of the bible and interprete them literally and i was sure most people didn't, but i see i was wrong.

Celibacy is the rule for catholic clergy, you are told this before you join...still we go on about these people being human. Of course they are human and it takes many many years to become a full fledged priest. Allowing those that can't hack it, to leave...which is their decision in communion with their God.

You are not a catholic, which is fine. Why don't you focus on saving your own soul.
What makes you so sure that the way you practice your religion or faith is the right way? Nothing, that is why it is called faith.
We have heard so many things about gospels discarded from the bible, Da Vinci code etc that have made many people question their faith.
Some have strayed and still many choose to beleive.
CHOICE/Free Will...our great gift from GOD

I accept that no one religion, method of worship or faith is the right one.
I have chosen to live my life as a catholic, christian and hopefully a good human being.
I have chosen to honour Mary
I have chosen to pray the Rosary...pray with beads like my Muslim brethrens
I have chosen to participate in the Eucharistic feast
I have chosen to honour the saints
I have chosen to observe the convenants

I am not sure what makes me less of a born again than any other.

The most wicked and devious people i have ever met have been so called 'born agains'. Those who carry their 'good works' on their sleeve and perpertuate evil behind closed doors.
We have more churches in Nigeria in one city than some entire country's, yet we are sooo corrupt.
BTW corruption is rooted in wickedness, because it takes a wicked man to take food from the hungry to line his own pockets. Then run around making astronomical donations to churches.

'He who is without sin let him cast the first stone'

hotta hotta

next missle pls

You say "many churches"   like the different catholic churches parishes are' nt part of the many churches in Nigeria. Or are you saying you guys are not a church. Is it a shrine or a cult?

How dare you talk of perpetuating evil.  Is evil not part of the molestation and abuse giving by your priest, or your gay bishop, or the "mafia setting" that goes on .................. nonsense.  Who made you a Judge.

@  whocares

[The most wicked and devious people i have ever met have been so called 'born agains'. Those who carry their 'good works' on their sleeve and perpertuate evil behind closed doors.
We have more churches in Nigeria in one city than some entire country's, yet we are sooo corrupt.
BTW corruption is rooted in wickedness, because it takes a wicked man to take food from the hungry to line his own pockets. Then run around making astronomical donations to churches./quote]


Thats the only sensable thing u've said

[I accept that no one religion, method of worship or faith is the right one./quote]

This thread is really funny.

Just a question: when is the Nigerian version of the 80 year war going to start? Or maybe you can all start some 'troubles' as they say in Northern Ireland.

Here's a joke I posted before, very relevant:

A man is walking across a bridge, when he sees another guy about to jump off.
"Hey, man" he says, "you don't have to do that."
"Why not?" the other guy says, "I've got nothing to live for. I lost my job, I'm bankrupt, my wife left me and took the kids, my car threw a rod, and my dog just died. My life totally sucks."
"But God still loves you," the man says, "you believe in God, don't you?"
"Well, I guess so," the guy says.
"Tell me, are you a Christian?"
"Yes" the guy answers.
"Well, so am I!" the man says. "Catholic or Protestant?"
"I'm Protestant"
"Well, so am I!" "Methodist, or Baptist, or Presbyterian?"
"I'm Baptist."
Well, so am I!" "Northern or Southern Baptist?"
"Northern Baptist."
"Well so am I!" "Northern fundamentalist, liberal, or reformed?"
"Northern fundamentalist."
"Well, so am I!" "Northern fundamentalist eastern region, or Great Lakes region?"
"Northern fundamentalist, eastern region."
"Well, so am I!" "Northern fundamentalist, eastern region conference of 1898, or conference of 1912?"
"Northern fundamentalist, eastern region, conference of 1912."
"Die, heretic!" the man says, and pushes him off the bridge.

For crying out loud, who ever said God was born.
He is alpha and omega.
If you say He was born by Mary then, Mary came before God and then God is not alpha
which makes Mary Alpha. That means you guys are Blasphemy.
Mary is mother of Jesus - the Son. God is the Father not Son to Mary
God had to have a medium to bring His Son Jesus [The word]
"Abi Jesus for drop from sky like that"

You see the controversy i was talking about.
@whocares ............. jiberisturumburu rabababab turatatramama dayu tu ratus kumito ribertanika  interpretation:  what do u think about that Sucker!




[Dont get brain-washed]

Eddy Tells:

For crying out loud, who ever said God was born.
He is alpha and omega.
If you say He was born by Mary then, Mary came before God and then God is not alpha
which makes Mary Alpha. That means you guys are Blasphemy.
Mary is mother of Jesus - the Son. God is the Father not Son to Mary
God had to have a medium to bring His Son Jesus [The word]
"Abi Jesus for drop from sky like that"

You see the controversy i was talking about.
@whocares ............. jiberisturumburu rabababab turatatramama dayu tu ratus kumito ribertanika interpretation: what do u think about that Sucker!




[Dont get brain-washed]

hey man u talk like u havn't read the bible for ages have u read this previous post>that says there are three Gods in one God,GOD the father,God the son and God the holy spirit...i dont even think ur a catholic,so why are you here?

...is d forum for catholics only. Since the first isnt catholic..any1 can contribute.

@adesoidgi, Sharrap there now. Who told your this forum is for Catholics only. What do u mean by why am I here [discriminating as usual]. Abi u no get eye to read say na me start this thread? I asked the question that your presently burning up for. Okay Mary gave birth to God the Son, Mr KNOW BIBLE, quote the passge for me

[hey man u talk like u havn't read the bible for ages have u read this previous post>that says there are three Gods in one God,GOD the father,God the son and God the holy spirit...i don't even think your a catholic,so why are you here?/quote]

Will the first shots in the Nigerian religious wars be fired on Nairaland?

Stay tuned for the latest updates...

Na wah! Can't we all just have intellectual arguments and refrain from hitting below the belt??

ok i give up,this is goin nowhere*^{hands up}*

I did not say all churches are bad and yes, i am referring to All churches (catholic et al)

I acknowledge we have problems in the institution that is the catholic church, but that does not take away from my catholic faith.
The same way, open minded people accept that there are bogus as well as original penticostal churches. that doesn't mean a true believer who worships in a 'bogus' penticostal church is less of a christian.

You can turn the bible upside down and side to side. I believe one reads the bible and the spirit (yes, GOD the holy spirit) interpretes it to you as applicable.
So, your understanding of a certain scripture in the context of your life, would be totally different from mine.

@Eddy tells

@whocares ............. jiberisturumburu rabababab turatatramama dayu tu ratus kumito ribertanika  interpretation:  what do u think about that Sucker!

Is that your language? or you speaking in tongues.......oops, i meant to say jibberish
If you care to read my earlier post and stop being emotional, you would realise i am as far from judging as it gets.

I dare to talk about perpertuating evil, because i have free will. The fact that a priest molested a child does not mean that his congregation are equally evil. The 'pastors' driving 5series on the back of a hungry and trusting congregation, what does that make his congregation?
There are gay bishops and pastors, some even use black magic. None of this is unique to any one church.

The catholic institution failed to act, to dismiss the said priests the instant the act was discovered and prosecute them accordingly and for that i am trully saddened.
It still does not make me less of a catholic.

I worship God, not the priest and i choose to use the catholic faith as my method of worship....deal with it

We need to get off our high horses accept that there is good and evil everywhere, in every religion and faith. we have people who exploit others be it sexually, financially or dare i say 'brainwashingly'.
We have fanatics and we have 'just plain crazy' folks.

Who the hell determines who is right or wrong about how one decides to worship GOD...but that is the beauty of it   'you believe without seeing'

@ whocares
I commend you for showing a true spirit of openness, understanding and compassion. You are looking for truth and though our paths may differ your method is commendable

Respect

@eddy that was 'okpas' what do you mean by 'Jesus is the son of Mary but not the same with the Father'... MY BROTHER THAT IS THE WHOLE ESSENCE OF OUR BELIEF ... THAT GOD BECAME MAN FOR US!!!!!!!!!

@nferyn
I commend you for showing a true spirit of openness, understanding and compassion. You are looking for truth and though our paths may differ your method is commendable
Respect

Thank you...kind sir

This is getting more and more interesting as it goes forward, though I don't think it calls up for the use of any foul, insultive or abusive language to any person or church, afterall we are just exchanging views.

I personally was born a Catholic and have stuck to my faith ever since. To be honest, I have come across a lot and lot of condemnation from members of other churches, who in my opinion are not any better or sin free than the Catholics. No one says there isnt any scandal or irregularities in the Catholic church by certain members even priests and nuns, but that isnt a ground to condem a whole faith. Afterall like Jesus told the jews who were going to condemn a woman for adultery, that he is who is sin free should cast the first stone. Afterall nowadays we hear so many fascinating stories about churches that hands down the bad that comes out of the Catholic church. Look at the instance of a well reknowned Pastor who is running second time for President of Nigeria? Is that the call he got from God? Or the other late pastor (name witheld) who was caught twice for carrying cocaine in his colar and Bible? Or the other man in Onitsha who declared that he was Jesus Christ and people kept flocking his ground and worshipping him until Bakassi Boys beheaded him once the found out he was getting powers to heal from Black Magic.? Or are we talking of the other Pastor who claims he is God and the Holy Spirit?

The fact is due to the rough economical era that has besieged Nigeria for many years, some people have taken advantage of it and brain washed a lot of Christians into moving around from Church to Church in search of a solution to their problems. They set up churches which are the best form of business presently as all income is tax free and rip the poor off their hard earned money. The sick is dying and needs help, family members rush him to the pastor to pray while there are hospitals. But in our same Bible, God said help yourself before he helps you. You hear that this man is a God fearing Christian and yet when they catch him stealing or commiting a big crime, he claims it was the work of the devil. We are forever hearing shouting and singing and 'jibberish' as stated by whocares all in the name of practicing Christianity. You greet someone nowadays and he doesnt know how to reply fine thank you, rather he says I am blessed. We have been taken advantage off so much its hard to come out of it. As far as I am concerned, the highest sin on earth has been commited in Nigeria by people using the Bible, which is the word of God to generate personal wealth. They don't even know the meaning of Christianity and yet the preach Born Again. How can a church call themself, Hebrew Womens Association or Shalom, when the big difference between the Hebrew and the Christians is that the Hebrew (Jews of today) don't believe that the Messiah has come? Honeslty, I don't know what mentality that is, but I don't blame them rather I blame the people who rush to these churches thinking that a miracle will happen to change their lives.

I have always wanted to know, in the days of our grandparents and parents all up to the late 80s before the inception of the American Pentecostal Churches, were they no Born Again Christians in Nigeria because they were all Catholics or Anglicans? I have always wanted to know in the early days, during traditional events in the villages, did they use to use Malt and Mineral for rites because the Born Agiains say don't drink. Please if anyone can rightly point out to me where in the Bible did it say, don't drink or smoke because I have heard that a lot.

My personal belief is that these so called Born Agains that we have around are being very hypocritical to the extreme. They say we as Catholics bow down to a reverend father and ask for forgiveness . Well for anyones information, the reverend father that we bow down is representing Christ on earth and it is Christ that we are speaking to and not the father who is only a man. But they go to a man who pushes them to the ground and shouts in 'jiberrish' and claims to have healed them. In the Bible, when Jesus forgave a man his sins and the Jewish leaders all yelled that he had commited blasphemy, he asked them which was easier to tell a man go your sins have been forgiven or telling the lame to rise and walk. I think the mere truth, is people are confused and confusing others.

And between Eddy tells, if you read your Bible very well, "Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,[a]' and will deceive many." Matthew 24:4-5

End of Part 2

@medube, they just tried to get this settled why are you raising issues again

Enough with this denominational stuff already.

Im sorry lioness, like I stated in the beginning of my write up, that we are only exchanging views which helps us to learn more and not fighting or abusing or condemning any person or church, please understand that point.

Thank you

Thank you very much whocares and medube for your contributions! Let me just add that I am a baptised catholic and you know what? when asked by my pentecostal brethren if I am born again or not. I give them a big YES answer. I draw my answer from the answer Jesus gave Nicodemus, when Nicodemus asked " Do I have to enter my mother's womb a second time to be born again?" and Jesus replied" You have to be born of water and the holy spirit".

So you see, Yes I am born again and to some brethren who still go ahead to ask if I have recieved the holy spirit, again a bigger YES because I am also a confirmed catholic.

Thank you very much my sister, but now they will come and say you didnt understand what that sentence from the Bible meant

I'm sorry to digress. I'm just interested in aswering medube's question.

medube:

Please if anyone can rightly point out to me where in the Bible did it say, don't drink or smoke because I have heard that a lot.

Concerning drinking (alcohol):
Several verses encourage people to stay away from alcohol (Leviticus 10:9; Numbers 6:3; Deuteronomy 14:26; 29:6; Judges 13:4,7,14; 1 Samuel 1:15; Proverbs 20:1; 31:4,6; Isaiah 5:11,22; 24:9; 28:7; 29:9; 56:12; Micah 2:11; Luke 1:15).

However, some "christians" here might argue that God only detests "drunkeness" and "addiction to alcohol". If that's the case, why then was Samson's mother and John the baptist warned not to drink strong wine (alcohol) before their births. (Judges 13:4, Luke 1:15). They could equally have been warned "not to get drunk."
Some could also argue that Jesus turned water into wine so that makes them qualified/justified to drink. But then, it was never specified whether the wine was a strong one, neither was it recorded that Jesus drank out of the wine.

Concerning smoking:
The Bible never mentions smoking.  It is plainly clear, though, that smoking is a sin.  The Bible commands us to not allow our bodies to become "mastered" by anything.  1st Corinthians 6:12 declares, "Everything is permissible for me"-but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me" - but I will not be mastered by anything."  Later in the same passage we are told, "Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body" (1 Corinthians 6:19-20).  The context of the passage is not smoking, but the principle applies.  Part of honoring God with our bodies is not doing something that we know is harmful to our bodies.  Even the smoking industry admits that smoking is both addictive and harmful to our bodies.  Therefore, a Christian should not dishonor both God and his own body by smoking.

Thanks..

Once again, I'm sorry..

Concerning drinking alcohol, consider the Bible passage where God told the Israelites to spend their tithe money on whatever their heart desired including alcohol!


Deuteronomy 14: 26

When you arrive, use the money to buy anything you want--an ox, a sheep, some wine, or beer. Then feast there in the presence of the LORD your God and celebrate with your household.

(NLT)

And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

(KJV)


Note the double-whammy: 1. God told the people to spend the tithe money on themselves --- not to give it to some pastor; 2. God told the people to spend tithe money to buy alcohol among other things.

Our problem be say everybody too sabi . Sabi sabi kill us

Even some people wan sabi pass God sef.
okay Whizkid, what does it mean to receive the holyspirt.

[i][Remember bible says receiving the holyspirit with eveidence of speaking intogues/i]

[/quote]

[quote][ Yes I am born again and to some brethren who still go ahead to ask if I have recieved the holy spirit, again a bigger YES because I am also a confirmed catholic./quote]

You see this brings me back to my statement about people reading/interpreting the bible literally

You can turn the bible upside down and side to side. I believe one reads the bible and the spirit (yes, GOD the holy spirit) interpretes it to you as applicable.
So, your understanding of a certain scripture in the context of your life, would be totally different from mine.

I am sure if you read the bible you will find references for and against alcohol.
What about the people that binge on food? Are their body's not temples?
We tend to pick on things that are defined by society as good or bad and put a religious spin on it...such as smoking and alcohol...what about gluttony, greed, anger and the other deadly sins?

My philosophy is simple, everything in moderation. Aside from that, it is common sense...abi?

@Lioness

I am not a bible guru, but i'm sure there is a bible passage that says the gift of the holy spirit is different for different people...speaking in tongues, healing etc