http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm

PROOF FROM SCRIPTURE

Genesis 3:15

No direct or categorical and stringent proof of the dogma can be brought forward from Scripture. But the first scriptural passage which contains the promise of the redemption, mentions also the Mother of the Redeemer. The sentence against the first parents was accompanied by the Earliest Gospel (Proto-evangelium), which put enmity between the serpent and the woman: "and I will put enmity between thee and the woman and her seed; she (he) shall crush thy head and thou shalt lie in wait for her (his) heel" (Genesis 3:15). The translation "she" of the Vulgate is interpretative; it originated after the fourth century, and cannot be defended critically. The conqueror from the seed of the woman, who should crush the serpent's head, is Christ; the woman at enmity with the serpent is Mary. God puts enmity between her and Satan in the same manner and measure, as there is enmity between Christ and the seed of the serpent. Mary was ever to be in that exalted state of soul which the serpent had destroyed in man, i.e. in sanctifying grace. Only the continual union of Mary with grace explains sufficiently the enmity between her and Satan. The Proto-evangelium, therefore, in the original text contains a direct promise of the Redeemer, and in conjunction therewith the manifestation of the masterpiece of His Redemption, the perfect preservation of His virginal Mother from original sin.

Luke 1:28

The salutation of the angel Gabriel -- chaire kecharitomene, Hail, full of grace (Luke 1:28) indicates a unique abundance of grace, a supernatural, godlike state of soul, which finds its explanation only in the Immaculate Conception of Mary. But the term kecharitomene (full of grace) serves only as an illustration, not as a proof of the dogma.

Other texts

From the texts Proverbs 8 and Ecclesiasticus 24 (which exalt the Wisdom of God and which in the liturgy are applied to Mary, the most beautiful work of God's Wisdom), or from the Canticle of Canticles (4:7, "Thou art all fair, O my love, and there is not a spot in thee", no theological conclusion can be drawn. These passages, applied to the Mother of God, may be readily understood by those who know the privilege of Mary, but do not avail to prove the doctrine dogmatically, and are therefore omitted from the Constitution "Ineffabilis Deus". For the theologian it is a matter of conscience not to take an extreme position by applying to a creature texts which might imply the prerogatives of God.

is this grail message?

@grailife,

Are you speaking in tongues or what? Even God makes His higher thoughts known in such a simple manner. Don't try to obscure issues with some kind of hypothetical thesis and hifalutin knowledge that does not augur well for salvation.

In any case, I have never seen scriptures murdered in so few words as I have seen in your posts. I'll tackle them each as soon as I have the time.

In the mean time, I will like to bring your attention to the term "mother of God" which you ascribed unto Mary. Please be informed that God does not have a Father nor a Mother. God is not begotten, and He does not have a beginning and ending of days. You will be right if you refer to Mary as the mother of Jesus, but she is not the mother of Christ. Mary was only involved in the humanity of Jesus Christ, and not in His deity. You should please correct this erroneous statement, as you have no clue how much you are blaspheming by stating such.

TayoD:

Historically, James is known to be the Pastor of the church in Jerusalem of which Peter was a member. Peter was obviously an elder in that church, and since an elder is still subject to a pastor, then we can safely deduce that Peter was subject to the authority of James within that local assembly.

TayoD,

Since we have discussed quite extensively and I am sure you know I hold you in high regard, let me be upfront with you.

Your inferences as stated above are simply not scriptural, nor indeed are they historic fact.

Granted James was of note amongst the saints, a mature and respected Christian and a voice that was often heard. But your calling him Pastor exposes what is nothing more than recieved tradition.

Firstly, James was not Peters Pastor, or for that matter anybody's pastor.
A Pastor is simply a variation on the word (and function of) Elder (likewise, Bishop, Presbyter, Shepherd etc, etc). So whilst your tradition/denomination may effect a hierarchy with elders subject to pastors, there is no biblical warrant for such an imposition

Secondly nowhere in scripture is a local assembly headed by the one man, it is always plurality or elders.

Thirdly, the word "pastor" is scarcely to be found in scripture, and neither is there contained therin the kind of remit or function ascribed to pastors in certain denominations these days. What I am hearing is the "traditions of men" and I'm sure you know where that leads. But if you can show otherwise from scripture, please enlighten me.

God bless.

Hi TV01,

I do appreciate your kind words and you know the feeling is mutual.  I knew you will definitely have problems with my conclusions based on your pre-dispositions.  However, I do have my scriptural reasons to believe what I believe, and this I will share with you.

The Book of Timothy provides the answer to your questions.  It is obvious from the letters that Timothy was Pastor over the church at Ephesus and the letters were written to him to help him in the proper administration of that local assembly.  The tone of the letter suggests that Timothy was the final authority within the Church, and I can prove this as we go.  In the mean time however, let us give our attention to the fact that the elders too were subject to the authority of Timothy.  See 1 Timothy 5:1 Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren;

See also 1 Timothy 5:17-21 17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. 18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward. 19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses. 20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear. 21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

It is obvious from these scriptures that the elders were well under Timothy's authority, and that is the way the church is set up.  And may I bring to your attention that every chain of authority must always peak at one person.  See the government, even the house, or the judiciary.  See the home, offices etc,   Final authority must be vested in one person to avoid chaos.

Mary is the Mother of GOD the son.
The Bible is just the collection of books

thank you to all those who also believe in that catholics do believe in being born again

@tayoD
jus cause in the pentecostal movement of today, pastor is greater than elder does not mean that it was the same in the NT.

and pope just means father

I didn't have time to read through all the pages. I just read the last two. And i want to say good job to TayoD for his responses.
@ topic i don't know if catholics believe in being born again, because of the following reason:
John 3:3
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily Verily, I say unto thee. Except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.
This was Jesus's response to Nicodemus.
My interpretation is that you have to be born again before you die and hence you can see the kingdom of God.
Catholics believe in purgatory, and i don't see how that fits with God's word. For one I'm sure Jesus would have talked about it (if there was an option like purgatory). Secondly once your dead your dead, and i don't think there is room to make good after that (we already had that chance before death).
In terms of big sin/crime versus small sin/crime that someone mentioned earlier, I don't know how God is going to judge that, all i know is that we should continue to ask forgiveness anytime we backslide (because we are not perfect), so that when its our time to die or end of time reaches, we would be right with God.

On praying through Mary or Saints (or asking them to intercede on our behalf).
I don't know why there is a need for that when we can pray to God directly or through Jesus directly. Ofcourse i can ask my friends to pray with me because its in the bible where two or more are gathered in his name he is there in their midsts (not sure of the exact scripture or if i quoted it exactly right).
Also how do you ask people that are dead to intercede on your behalf?

But in the long run, we are not supposed to judge.

But jesus didnt say you have to be born again before you die
neither did he say when two or more living breathing ppl are gathered in my name
after all did moses and elijah not appear with him at the transfiguration
death is only a transition and not a finality, so there is nothing like once you are dead you are dead
purgatory is mentioned in the bible, it's just that non-catholics refuse to accept that interpretation of the bible verse. its a allegorical verse about the refinment of silver.

you're equating death with being powerless, i wonder how when jesus died he was able to go into hell then or how when moses died he was able to appear with jesus, or how when samuel died, that witch was able to call him up

as for this born again affair, it is strictly pentecostal. the closest parallel i can find to it is baptism and confirmation

@ gigitte

please back up your points with bible quotations so we can reference. Mine on 2 or more praying together i will try to find it (the reference). I can't comment on some of your points until you reference them.

as for this born again affair, it is strictly pentecostal. the closest parallel i can find to it is baptism and confirmation

so are you saying the bible is pentecostal. Because being born again is in the bible.

But jesus didnt say you have to be born again before you die

you're equating death with being powerless

you cannot see the kingdom of God without being born again. Once your dead you dont have the chance to become born again.
John 5:24-25
Verily, verily i say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Verily, verily I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Matthew 18:18-20

Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind in earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Again I say unto you, That if two or you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask , it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Starting with verse 18 how come purgatory is not mentioned. Or is purgatory on earth? that verse shows there is power on earth.
Verse 20 does not say when 2 or 3 more dead people are gathered. He was preaching to the living that means he would be referring to the living, if otherwise it would have clearly stated.

because its in the bible and the Bible say, Some people almost turn BIBLE to their GOD.

[b] PROOFS[/b]

The Catholic doctrine of purgatory supposes the fact that some die with smaller faults for which there was no true repentance, and also the fact that the temporal penalty due to sin is it times not wholly paid in this life.

The proofs for the Catholic position, both in Scripture and in Tradition, are bound up also with the practice of praying for the dead.

Intercession has been made for the soul of the dear one departed and God has heard the prayer, and the soul has passed into a place of light and refreshment.

.

Old Testament

The tradition of the Jews is put forth with precision and clearness in II Maccabees. Judas, the commander of the forces of Israel,


making a gathering . . . sent twelve thousand drachmas of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead). And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them. It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins. (2 Maccabees 12:43-46)
At the time of the Maccabees the leaders of the people of God had no hesitation in asserting the efficacy of prayers offered for the dead, in order that those who had departed this life might find pardon for their sins and the hope of eternal resurrection.

Remeber catholics are traditional

Tradition

This doctrine that many who have died are still in a place of purification and that prayers avail to help the dead is part of the very earliest Christian tradition. Tertullian "De corona militis" mentions prayers for the dead as an Apostolic ordinance, and in "De Monogamia" (cap. x, P. L., II, col. 912) he advises a widow "to pray for the soul of her husband, begging repose for him and participation in the first resurrection"; he commands her also "to make oblations for him on the anniversary of his demise," and charges her with infidelity if she neglect to succour his soul. This settled custom of the Church is clear from St. Cyprian, who (P. L. IV, col. 399) forbade the customary prayers for one who had violated the ecclesiastical law. "Our predecessors prudently advised that no brother, departing this life, should nominate any churchman as his executor; and should he do it, that no oblation should be made for him, nor sacrifice offered for his repose." Long before Cyprian, Clement of Alexandria had puzzled over the question of the state or condition of the man who, reconciled to God on his death-bed, had no time for the fulfilment of penance due his transgression. His answer is: "the believer through discipline divests himself of his passions and passes to the mansion which is better than the former one, passes to the greatest torment, taking with him the characteristic of repentance for the faults he may have committed after baptism. He is tortured then still more, not yet attaining what he sees others have acquired. The greatest torments are assigned to the believer, for God's righteousness is good, and His goodness righteous, and though these punishments cease in the course of the expiation and purification of each one, "yet" etc. (P. G. IX, col. 332).

In Origen the doctrine of purgatory is very clear. If a man depart this life with lighter faults, he is condemned to fire which burns away the lighter materials, and prepares the soul for the kingdom of God, where nothing defiled may enter. "For if on the foundation of Christ you have built not only gold and silver and precious stones (1 Corinthians 3); but also wood and hay and stubble, what do you expect when the soul shall be separated from the body? Would you enter into heaven with your wood and hay and stubble and thus defile the kingdom of God; or on account of these hindrances would you remain without and receive no reward for your gold and silver and precious stones? Neither is this just. It remains then that you be committed to the fire which will burn the light materials; for our God to those who can comprehend heavenly things is called a cleansing fire. But this fire consumes not the creature, but what the creature has himself built, wood, and hay and stubble. It is manifest that the fire destroys the wood of our transgressions and then returns to us the reward of our great works." (P. G., XIII, col. 445, 448).

The Apostolic practice of praying for the dead which passed into the liturgy of the Church, is as clear in the fourth century as it is in the twentieth. St. Cyril of Jerusalem (Catechet. Mystog., V, 9, P.G., XXXIII, col. 1116) describing the liturgy, writes: "Then we pray for the Holy Fathers and Bishops that are dead; and in short for all those who have departed this life in our communion; believing that the souls of those for whom prayers are offered receive very great relief, while this holy and tremendous victim lies upon the altar." St. Gregory of Nyssa (P. G., XLVI, col. 524, 525) states that man's weaknesses are purged in this life by prayer and wisdom, or are expiated in the next by a cleansing fire. "When he has quitted his body and the difference between virtue and vice is known he cannot approach God till the purging fire shall have cleansed the stains with which his soul was infested. That same fire in others will cancel the corruption of matter, and the propensity to evil." About the same time the Apostolic Constitution gives us the formularies used in succouring the dead. "Let us pray for our brethren who sleep in Christ, that God who in his love for men has received the soul of the depart one, may forgive him every fault, and in mercy and clemency receive him into the bosom of Abraham, with those who in this life have pleased God" (P. G. I, col. 1144). Nor can we pass over the use of the diptychs where the names of the dead were inscribed; and this remembrance by name in the Sacred Mysteries--(a practice that was from the Apostles) was considered by Chrysostom as the best way of relieving the dead (In I Ad Cor., Hom. xli, n. 4, G., LXI, col. 361, 362).

Hnd holder, Roman catholicsm will not save you!!!
Only faith in Christ and accepting him as Lord and savior will.
I have read through your postings and i plead my dear brother that you come off that high horse and read the Bible and ask God for understanding.

On that day of judgement the only standard will be the scriptures not the little catechist booklet of sacraments and so on.
What does the Bible say?
These arguments and air or superiority will lead you nowhere if indeed you plan on making heaven.
Christ will not care how many communions you received,your infant baptism,if you were confirmed and reconfirmed,how many confessions you attended and how many rosary beads in your collection,your stellar records in mass attendance and your unbeatable altar boy perfomance.

The bible says that the road is narrow and straight and few people find it,be determined to be one of the few.
Just a little word from a beloved sister.

The bible says that the road is narrow and straight and few people find it,be determined to be one of the few. It is the Bible that says not GOD says, How little the you know about the bible and Catholic?

As Catholics were responsible for writing the New Testament (under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit),
the Catholic Church doesn't "interpret" the Bible.

We explain it.
Protestants can only "interpret", because they are not the author (guided by the Holy Spirit), and therefore, can only guess at the possible meaning of a chapter, passage or phrase, just as anyone can only guess at any author's intentions in any other book. As the author, the Catholic Church is the only proper authority to consult in matters pertaining to the Bible. http://www.cathtruth.com/catholicbible/

The Word "Bible"
The word "Bible" means "the book." In both the Latin and Greek languages the term "Biblia" is a plural noun and signifies "The Books." Originally, the Bible was not one book but a collection of books - in fact, a whole library. It was only in about the fourth century that the seventy two books of the Bible were combined to form the "volume." Eventually, the plural "Biblia" became a singular noun, and in modern languages signifies "the book." The passing of the word "Biblia" from the plural into the singular was no doubt occasioned by an understanding of the real character of the Bible: While the human authors were many, the Divine Author is but one. The Bible is called "The Scriptures" (2 Peter 3:16) and "Holy Scriptures" (Romans 1:2).

The Word "Testament"
The titles "Old" and "New Testament" were used by St. Paul (2 Corinthians, 2:14). The term "testament," as applied to the two parts of the Bible, means: a covenant, agreement, pact. In the language of the Bible it denotes the agreement or pact between God and man: Man agreed to do certain things and God, in return, promised certain blessings. The Old Testament contains a record of the pact between God and Abraham and between God and Moses. The New Testament is an account of the pact between God and His creatures. Both the old and the new covenants were sealed by blood: The pact between God and Abraham was sealed by the circumcision (Genesis 17); the pact between God and the Jewish people, by the sprinkling of the people with the blood of animal victims (Exodus 24:7, ; the pact between God and men, by Christ's own blood (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25). Besides denoting the Jewish and Christian religions, the terms "Old" and "New" Testaments also designate the sacred books of each.

Original Language Of The Bible
Two books of the Old Testament - Wisdom and II Machabees - were written in Greek. The rest of the Old Testament was written in the Hebrew language. The New Testament was written in Greek, with the exception of St. Matthew's Gospel which - according to the unanimous testimony of Christian antiquity - was written in Hebrew or Aramaic.
The books of the Bible were very likely written in the cursive style of writing. The cursive (or "running hand" style joins the letters of a word together as when we write today. In addition, the ancients had two other styles of writing: the lapidary (from the Latin word, lapis, meaning stone) and the uncial (from the Latin word uncia, meaning inch). The lapidary style was followed in inscriptions on stone monuments and used only capital letters. The uncial style was used in fine editions of books and in elaborate Bibles and employed large disconnected letters resembling the capitals. In "uncial" writing there were no spaces between the words or sentences and punctuation marks were used rarely. The word "uncial" comes from St. Jerome's description of some Bibles of his time as being written in "letters an inch high."

Bro’ TayoD,

Thanks for your response, I almost missed it under the avalanche of posts on the main topic.

I must say I appreciate your backing up your position with reference to scripture. It means the discussion can be focused.

You wrote:
It is obvious from the letters that Timothy was Pastor over the church at Ephesus.

My response:
Actually it is not. Although without looking at the bigger picture, it is easy to see how one could draw that conclusion.

First a little background. Paul and most of those who laboured with him where very early Christians and the work they undertook pioneering in nature (quite often in places where the “Church” had not previously existed). They were responsible for setting up the church structure. So what we are talking about here is the apostolic, not the pastoral. 

The church was in its nascent stage and the instruction was how to set up and structure the church, not how he should run it as pastor. If there are only a few people who understand how church should be structured, ordered and run, the first task will be to raise up suitably qualified men to perform the necessary functions, hence the outline for eldership/bishoprics laid out in the epistles to Timothy & Titus.

Once a church was up and running the apostolic element is no longer required, which underlines why Peter referred to himself as an “Elder” (and a fellow one at that, not qualified by a term denoting seniority of any kind). The church was established, and as he was not in the business of advancing the church into new territory (say like Paul), his role would have been as one of a number of elders. Likewise James, whose obvious maturity and insight marked him out as such. If he was a “Pastor”, it would have been in the sense that bishop, shepherd, pastor and elder are all synonymous, not in the current day (mis)interpretation of a pastor having authority over elders. As mentioned in my previous post, nowhere does the bible suggest this. Not directly, not indirectly or by an explicitly outlined mandate that aligns with the current day (mis)interpretation of the so called pastoral role.

That is why elders is almost always referred to in the plural. A plurality of co-equal (although possibly varying in areas of activity or expertise), would be a great guard against the excessive celebrity cults and demi-god status of some modern day pastors.

You said:
It is obvious from these scriptures that the elders were well under Timothy's authority, and that is the way the church is set up.

My response:
Correct in the sense that it was Apostolic and not pastoral authority. And in the sense that is not the way the church "is set up", it’s the way the church "was set-up". Once established the only two church functionaries are elders and deacons (plural and male).

And yes, I agree all chains of authority peak into one person. “All authority is from God, and the sole head of the Church is the Lord Jesus Christ.

God bless

Catholics beleive in being born again. Perhaps they do not profess it - Which is a requirement. They believe that by baptism, you are brought into the family of God. However, This is mostly done in infancy- which is wrong again, because one has to make the decision willingly.

Regarding the issue of whether they worship mary. The Catholic church have declared that Mary as Co- Redemtrix with Christ. When the Church invokes Mary under the title, "Coredemptrix", she means that Mary uniquely participated in the redemption of the human family by Jesus Christ, Our Lord and Saviour. , Is this worship, Adoration, Honour? Make of this what you will.

Also, when Catholics pray the rosary, 10 'hail Marys' before 1 'Our father'. Does it mean that they honour Mary 10 times more than the Father? Again, your guess is as good as mine.

If Christ specifically said 'No one can come to the Father except through me', then why are we talking about coming to Christ through His earthly mother, when the ultimate request is to the Father.

As stated in an earlier post, one needs to study Church history and then it becomes clearer (or more confusing) the reasons wh Catholics do what they do.

Great points

@HND
Pls and Pls, The Roman Catholic did not write the bible for God's sake. They were written at different times by different men inspired by God. The first five books ie Genesis to Deutronomy were written by Moses. We have the Psalms written by David, proverbs and eclesiastics were written by Solomon, the prophetic books written by the respective prophets used as the title; We also have the epistles written by their respective authors ie Paul, peter. John aso The gospels were also written by their respective authors. Initially they were written in scrolls. What the Church only did was to compile and revise them since the origininal copies were in Aramaic and Hebrew. So please take note.

story

please! Catholics DO NOT believe in being born again.  I think they have some breakaway charismatic movement whose eyes are finally beginning to open by the grace of God.

But traditionally RCs do not practice born again philosophy.  Just look at the fruit and and you will know the tree!

Now that sounds like something that isnt a story.

More like a statement of fact.

If you believe in the religion started by Jesus Christ, you can claim born again status if that makes you feel "more" Christian.
On judgment day (if there will be one), we shall find out if every Christian, including born-agains chose the right path to eternal salvation (if that's possible).
Mind you, there are more people on earth that do not even subscribe to Christianity. Only for us to waste time to worry about born-agains.

Crappy Talk

~~ the lioness walks out to go have herself a great christmas~~~