wirinet:


So in effect you support the biblical law of stoning rebellious and stubborn children to death. Afterall, as you said, you cannot blame the fathers for te consequences of a rebellious child's sins.

Seems you are judging the matter per how it looked forgetting that God himself didn't force them to leave Egypt-they were suffering and needed God on their side he gave them laws and rules in the wilderness to guide against anarchy,uprising and to help them from behaving like the evil nations around them,if he hadn't given those stone hearted and forgetful people those laws they would have been divided/consumed and none would have gotten to the promise land.
When you need God you act as he tells you(remember the Passover) when you are convenient you will now act as if u haven't heard about him or his laws is difficult to heed.
#GOD IS NOT A FOOL#.
You no fit hold am pal.

imohchard:
Seun, if you have a son and he is Troublesome, would you say you gave birth to a troublesome son?

No, the right thing would be, your son became troublesome..

If the father in this case happened to be all-powerful, all-knowing, and omnipresent, then yes, it would be his fault because he knowingly created a son that he knew would turn out to be troublesome, even though he could have prevented it without any problem to himself.

onetrack:


If the father in this case happened to be all-powerful, all-knowing, and omnipresent, then yes, it would be his fault because he knowingly created a son that he knew would turn out to be troublesome, even though he could have prevented it without any problem to himself.

ding dong!!!

onetrack:


If the father in this case happened to be all-powerful, all-knowing, and omnipresent, then yes, it would be his fault because he knowingly created a son that he knew would turn out to be troublesome, even though he could have prevented it without any problem to himself.

Why didn't he prevent the devil (a former angel) and the fallen angels from rebelling against him?
He allowed them freewill even in his kingdom instead of creating robots.
He created adam and eve perfectly good but also with a freewill to make their choice thereby advising them not to eat of the tree of Good and evil,but the devil wanted to prove to God that God's standard is too high due to his pride .
That was the reason he tricked them into eating the fruit.
If God had created Hunan like robots that bend to his will then the devil have won.He will say that God is afraid and selfish to again create some one with a free will like him(the devil) fearing rebellion to his standards.
#God is not partial#
That was why he sent JESUS as a MAN to show us.Even Jesus could have failed if he decided to.

JackBizzle:


Pastor


Is good also a created thing? You christians and your half baked logic.


God created evil. He is the almighty smiter. The punisher.


Yaweh the defiler

God is essentially Good and even after Creation, all was adjudged good by Him. Hence, evil has it's source when there is a separation from Him!!!

onetrack:


If the father in this case happened to be all-powerful, all-knowing, and omnipresent, then yes, it would be his fault because he knowingly created a son that he knew would turn out to be troublesome, even though he could have prevented it without any problem to himself.

And till date is the Father bereft of ideas for a way out? Did He speak of the way out after brainstorming for some centuries after the fall or immediately after the fall?

From the proceedings in Genesis it is clear that what the Father wanted was that Adam would decide if he will remain in that state in which he was created! (Adam did not choose the state in which he was created, God did). And that is why immediately after the fall, he was sent out lest he took from the one that God did not forbid him from taking - the Tree of life and remain irredeemably in that fallen state forever.

If Adam had taken from Tree of life first, then there will be no need for the tempter because Adam's state would be positively irreversible!

malvisguy212:
Good is not a created thing either. Listen, there is natural evil and moral evil, Moral evil is the sin of rational creatures (angels and
men) scripture indicate it, moral Evil came first. Natural evil is a curse brought upon the world because of moral evil. Moral evil exists because humans are free to do either good or bad, it's just that simple. Why does God allowed this to happened ? I mean why does God allowed Evil ?the simple answer to this is, God instills in each of Us the ability to know right from wrong. One of the purpose of God creating us is to CHOSE to Love Him or reject Him. as
sentient and free beings it falls on US to
choose, not God to dictate, if God dictate for us, then is partial freewill. So evil exist because WE ARE ALLOWED to CHOSE from it, who Allowed us to chose ? GOD. This mean, God is not the author of Evil, we are.

Evil exists because WE choose for it to exist ( we choose by doing what we know to be wrong AND by choosing to be apart from God)

load of nonsense.


There is no God. Good and evil lies in man's heart

Scholar8200:
God is essentially Good and even after Creation, all was adjudged good by Him. Hence, evil has it's source when there is a separation from Him!!!

A jealous God is good?

A God that hardened Pharoah's heart?

A God that killed the first sons of the Egyptians who had nothing to do with the crimes of the parents?

A God that killed King David's son to punish King David?

JackBizzle:



A jealous God is good?

Sure He is.You need to realize that He knows what we get into when we forsake Him. He knows the enemy we expose ourselves to. Imagine Job going into idolatry, God knows the hedge of protection will be broken down and He will do nothing in preventing Job from facing the consequences of his choice!

A God that hardened Pharoah's heart?

Yes, see God gives man a long rope but when that is over, judgement takes many shapes! When tyrants like Belshazzar, Antiochus Epiphanes, Nebuchadnezzar, Manasseh, Jeconiah etc all had their chances. Some repented, others waited till it was too late

A God that killed the first sons of the Egyptians who had nothing to do with the crimes of the parents?

It was judgement! Israel also lost innocent babies to Egypt, cruelly enslaved innocent Israelites (death on a daily basis will be inevitable) etc

A God that killed King David's son to punish King David?

Rather, the message of the Bible is that our sins affect others negatively! This is an example. David killed Uriah hence he reaped judgement from God. Why didnt God kill David? He repented, but the consequences of his sins spread to all!

That is why God said, Vengeance is Mine!

CoolUsername:


The supernatural supposedly transcends nature, right. So if you say that you can raise the dead, let's bring a cadaver so you can raise him/her in front of experts. The experts will supply the cadaver, obviously.

I heard that one guy even offered a large sum of money to anyone who can perform straight-up magic in front of him. Nobody has been successful yet.

But the miracles don't work that way. They are spurious in nature and for that reason aren't open to testing under lab conditions. However, things like out of body experience have been done in the lab. Instead of scientists to take this as confirmation of spiritual being materialism made them I sist it was as a result of a given brain state.

Scholar8200:
Sure He is.You need to realize that He knows what we get into when we forsake Him. He knows the enemy we expose ourselves to. Imagine Job going into idolatry, God knows the hedge of protection will be broken down and He will do nothing in preventing Job from facing the consequences of his choice!


Yes, see God gives man a long rope but when that is over, judgement takes many shapes! When tyrants like Belshazzar, Antiochus Epiphanes, Nebuchadnezzar, Manasseh, Jeconiah etc all had their chances. Some repented, others waited till it was too late

It was judgement! Israel also lost innocent babies to Egypt, cruelly enslaved innocent Israelites (death on a daily basis will be inevitable) etc


Rather, the message of the Bible is that our sins affect others negatively! This is an example. David killed Uriah hence he reaped judgement from God.

That is why God said, Vengeance is Mine!

You have no sense of morality. May your children not be killed for your sins

JackBizzle:



You have no sense of morality. May your children not be killed for your sins

Why do you say that? And what is your reference point/standard for morality? Please answer both.

Man is not allowed to avenge himself. Who then takes vengeance? Who dispenses justice?
(Answer these too if you can)

Scholar8200:

And till date is the Father bereft of ideas for a way out? Did He speak of the way out after brainstorming for some centuries after the fall or immediately after the fall?

From the proceedings in Genesis it is clear that what the Father wanted was that Adam would decide if he will remain in that state in which he was created! (Adam did not choose the state in which he was created, God did). And that is why immediately after the fall, he was sent out lest he took from the one that God did not forbid him from taking - the Tree of life and remain irredeemably in that fallen state forever.

If Adam had taken from Tree of life first, then there will be no need for the tempter because Adam's state would be positively irreversible!

Though I don't believe the story of Adam and Eve one bit, I would have been rather happy to see Adam eat the apple so that we would not live a life of an ignorant zombie just passively existing without any challenges in some garden. What a boring existence that would be. It's for the exact same reason that the idea of Heaven does not appeal to me. No challenges and no meaning to existence.

Scholar8200:
Why do you say that? And what is your reference point/standard for morality? Please answer both.

Man is not allowed to avenge himself. Who then takes vengeance? Who dispenses justice?
(Answer these too if you can)

My morality lies in logic, reasoning and the principles of humanism

HEFAIROHLUWA:

Why didn't he prevent the devil (a former angel) and the fallen angels from rebelling against him?
He allowed them freewill even in his kingdom instead of creating robots.
He created adam and eve perfectly good but also with a freewill to make their choice thereby advising them not to eat of the tree of Good and evil,but the devil wanted to prove to God that God's standard is too high due to his pride .
That was the reason he tricked them into eating the fruit.
If God had created Hunan like robots that bend to his will then the devil have won.He will say that God is afraid and selfish to again create some one with a free will like him(the devil) fearing rebellion to his standards.
#God is not partial#
That was why he sent JESUS as a MAN to show us.Even Jesus could have failed if he decided to.

Free will and an all-knowing, all powerful god are two incompatible ideas. If this god does not know the future then he is not all-knowing; if he does know the future then it is because it is what he wanted to happen.

onetrack:


Though I don't believe the story of Adam and Eve one bit, I would have been rather happy to see Adam eat the apple so that we would not live a life of an ignorant zombie just passively existing without any challenges in some garden. What a boring existence that would be. It's for the exact same reason that the idea of Heaven does not appeal to me. No challenges and no meaning to existence.

Well since you dont believe it...

However, if the highlighted is your only reason then ...why rest the irreversible on a personal opinion/perception?

Besides, the real joy of a Christian (at least for me) is not Streets of Gold, Pearly Gates, Mansions...etc

Scholar8200:

And till date is the Father bereft of ideas for a way out? Did He speak of the way out after brainstorming for some centuries after the fall or immediately after the fall?

From the proceedings in Genesis it is clear that what the Father wanted was that Adam would decide if he will remain in that state in which he was created! (Adam did not choose the state in which he was created, God did). And that is why immediately after the fall, he was sent out lest he took from the one that God did not forbid him from taking - the Tree of life and remain irredeemably in that fallen state forever.

If Adam had taken from Tree of life first, then there will be no need for the tempter because Adam's state would be positively irreversible!

Should there have been the need for a tempter at all?

onetrack:


Free will and an all-knowing, all powerful god are two incompatible ideas. If this god does not know the future then he is not all-knowing; if he does know the future then it is because it is what he wanted to happen.

He knows the end of either alternatives we will choose. He also knows our hearts and it's inclinations to either alternatives but the only influence He makes is to warn or encourage where applicable. This far the Bible reveals to us of His Omni-Science.

folksync:


Should there have been the need for a tempter at all?

Yes. Adam was created in God's Image and Likeness not by Adam's choice. Now God will be violating His own principle if He made Adam remain like that for all eternity. Besides, the equation was balanced- God had commanded, the devil also tempted and man made his choice.
The tempter was not created so, he had become wicked by reason of his alienation from God.

As to who tempted the tempter? NOBODY! he made his choice.

Scholar8200:


Well since you dont believe it...

However, if the highlighted is your only reason then ...why rest the irreversible on a personal opinion/perception?

Besides, the real joy of a Christian (at least for me) is not Streets of Gold, Pearly Gates, Mansions...etc

Lack of evidence of any particular god is my position. I cannot fake believe. I have no faith and don't see faith as a good thing. The Bible and the Quran are just books written by men.

In any case I have and have always had no interest in practicing any religion.

onetrack:


Lack of evidence of any particular god is my position. I cannot fake believe. I have no faith and don't see faith as a good thing. The Bible and the Quran are just books written by men.

In any case I have and have always had no interest in practicing any religion.

Indeed but how about meeting a Person?

Scholar8200:
He knows the end of either alternatives we will choose. He also knows our hearts and it's inclinations to either alternatives but the only influence He makes is to warn or encourage where applicable. This far the Bible reveals to us of His Omni-Science.

This is not possible. It is a logical impossibility. If this god knows what will happen and is all powerful then it must be a result of his will.

Scholar8200:
Yes. Adam was created in God's Image and Likeness not by Adam's choice. Now God will be violating His own principle if He made Adam remain like that for all eternity. Besides, the equation was balanced- God had commanded, the devil also tempted and man made his choice.
The tempter was not created so, he had become wicked by reason of his alienation from God.

As to who tempted the tempter? NOBODY! he made his choice.

You mean God caused Adam to sin so that Adam would stop being in God's image and likeness?

Scholar8200:
Indeed but how about meeting a Person?

I require extraordinary evidence in order to believe an extraordinary claim. I need to see someone make time stop, for example.

Seun:
It's sad to watch people trying desperately to make sense of something that just doesn't add up because they have been told that it's the truth.

If that's your conclusion of my sojourn on the Religion board I'm truly disappointed. I took note of your silence as well as thehomer's on the thread where I detailed the experience that turned me back to Christianity.

Seun:

The God of Christianity, Islam, and Judaism is all-powerful and benevolent. Such a God cannot exist because of the existence of evil. therefore those religions and their holy books are wrong. If the Bible and Quran are wrong, what is your reason for still believing that God exists?

I have presented arguments for a Creator God (as generally underatood) in the past you can go to my thread 'Three Arguments For God's Existence' and see my reasosns. That said you have simply FAILED to rebut my argument which I'll repeat for clarity. Evil in the world only contradicts Gods benevolence, it doesn't contradict His existence. It would be very strange if soemone used World War 2 to argue against Hitlera existence as opposed to his goodness.

Seun:

What is the good intent behind allowing the torture, butchery and murder of innocent children and adults by groups like ISIS and Boko Haram?

It is a common doctrine among most, if not all Christian sects that an appointed day has been set when God will bring all men and their works into judgement. Till then man must wait because God will never act prior to a time He has set. God has already done his part by giving every man a conscience that knows right and wrong.

onetrack:


I require extraordinary evidence in order to believe an extraordinary claim. I need to see someone make time stop, for example.

I think its better to let such an One decide on what means He will give proofs else you might be expecting what He might choose not to do!
Your request for a sign echoes that of some men in the Bible (including Herod), somehow He did not act to gratify their curiosity

folksync:


You mean God caused Adam to sin so that Adam would stop being in God's image and likeness?

No, nothing in my post suggests that God CAUSED Adam. God gave Adam commands on what to avoid and what to accept. God's purpose was clear as Genesis 1:26 shows. But He wont make man remain so without him wanting it so.

onetrack:


This is not possible. It is a logical impossibility. If this god knows what will happen and is all powerful then it must be a result of his will.

All powerful but will not make you act against your will. Else why did He give you one? God is Love and He will only want our loyalty to Him to be also a choice of reciprocating His Love, not a programming from which the robot cannot depart.

Scholar8200:
I think its better to let such an One decide on what means He will give proofs else you might be expecting what He might choose not to do!
Your request for a sign echoes that of some men in the Bible (including Herod), somehow He did not act to gratify their curiosity

Well then I guess he will just have one less worshiper. I think that it is absolutely reasonable to demand evidence.

onetrack:


Well then I guess he will just have one less worshiper. I think that it is absolutely reasonable to demand evidence.

No problem demanding evidence, but why not leave the cheque blank as to what it will be, only condition is it being convincing.

UyiIredia:


If that's your conclusion of my sojourn on the Religion board I'm truly disappointed. I took note of your silence as well as thehomer's on the thread where I detailed the experience that turned me back to Christianity.



I have presented arguments for a Creator God (as generally underatood) in the past you can go to my thread 'Three Arguments For God's Existence' and see my reasosns. That said you have simply FAILED to rebut my argument which I'll repeat for clarity. Evil in the world only contradicts Gods benevolence, it doesn't contradict His existence. It would be very strange if soemone used World War 2 to argue against Hitlera existence as opposed to his goodness.



It is a common doctrine among most, if not all Christian sects that an appointed day has been set when God will bring all men and their works into judgement. Till then man must wait because God will never act prior to a time He has set. God has already done his part by giving every man a conscience that knows right and wrong.

Its obvious the atheists like Johnydon22 , plaetton , seun think God's behavior precludes his existence - that does not any sense . You clearly smashed him with a rock @ bolded . In the bible , God clearly stated that he created evil

JackBizzle:



load of nonsense.


There is no God. Good and evil lies in man's heart

A very weak defence I'll call this!! Stay on track, leave the argument of God existence aside. Do you agree God is NOT the author of evil ?