InesQor:


Yes it's hard to draw the line between a subconscious reaction and a conscious one, but each person knows when they begin "dwelling" on thoughts of sin. The very fact that we "hear" suggestions of temptation in our subconscious means we are liable to sin, but when we consciously begin to fantasize on it then the tables turn and we are dwelling in sin.

Jesus was "tempted in all ways as we are". This statement would make no sense if he never had the urges or was not liable to sin, but the key thing is that he didn't dwell on them.

John wrote about this, understanding that "newcomers in faith" (i.e. those with less experience handling sin) need to be guided out of it.
I write this, dear children, to guide you out of sin. But if anyone does sin, we have a Priest-Friend in the presence of the Father: Jesus Christ, righteous Jesus. When he served as a sacrifice for our sins, he solved the sin problem for good—not only ours, but the whole world’s.

"Solving the sin problem for good" means that Jesus' sacrifice gives us a fallback when we do sin. That's some hope, at least.

And he tops it up in 1 John 2:15-17 by telling us how to keep ourselves from living in sin. Reading the below passage shows that it takes a conscious effort. The subconscious temptation in itself doesn't count, so that "number of seconds" between the subconscious and conscious can't be something fixed for everyone. Sin is isolating ourselves from God, and there are some common triggers for it.
Don’t love the world’s ways. Don’t love the world’s goods. Love of the world squeezes out love for the Father. Practically everything that goes on in the world—wanting your own way, wanting everything for yourself, wanting to appear important—has nothing to do with the Father. It just isolates you from him. The world and all its wanting, wanting, wanting is on the way out—but whoever does what God wants is set for eternity.

Sin places that gun in our hands, we feel the weight and contemplate using it. The choice to press the trigger is always ours, but the longer you hold on to the gun and admire its beauty and grow dependent on it for your protection, the more likely you will use it on someone.

Good one bro.

PastorAIO:


So it was temptation and trial all at the same time. Because they were attacking weak spots and strong spots at the same time. God doesn't tempt but people but he tries people. So while Satan was attack Jesus on one side with temptation, God was attacking the other side with trials.

Please continue. I'm learning.

you can say that again, the son was glorified

sonOfLucifer:

Hunger isn't a weakness. Rather, it's a natural reaction to staying without food. Jesus was fasting in the wilderness, constraining himself in order to be in God's presence. An empty stomach wasn't Jesus' weakness. He wasn't tempted to eat. He was tempted to turn stone to bread.

oh! i guess it was the devil dat was hungry then and needed jesus to turn stone to bread abi? so wat was the reason he needed jesus to turn stone to bread. hunger is a weak spot for temptation bro

johnydon22:


- A christian do not need a dictionary, only his wits and the bible and he can coin words to mean exactly what he wants...

I doubt if you have ever seen a definition of TRIAL that is "test from God" and a definition of temptation that is "test from satan".

but in the christian mind coining up anything no matter how absurd is okay as long as you are trying to wriggle your way out in your own self induced labyrinth of biblical interpretations.

so today we have been dragged to a whole set of English class by a classical show of unreserved Christian apologetic .

It is good like that. My purpose in interacting with them is to encourage them to spew out the full nonsensically of their reasoning.

malvisguy212:
Good one bro.

What are you 'good one'-ing about? Did you understand what he was saying? What did you understand? Does what he said tally with anything you said?

Good one ko, Good one ni!

InesQor:

[size=3pt]
Yes it's hard to draw the line between a subconscious reaction and a conscious one, but each person knows when they begin "dwelling" on thoughts of sin. The very fact that we "hear" suggestions of temptation in our subconscious means we are liable to sin, but when we consciously begin to fantasize on it then the tables turn and we are dwelling in sin.

Jesus was "tempted in all ways as we are". This statement would make no sense if he never had the urges or was not liable to sin, but the key thing is that he didn't dwell on them.

John wrote about this, understanding that "newcomers in faith" (i.e. those with less experience handling sin) need to be guided out of it.
I write this, dear children, to guide you out of sin. But if anyone does sin, we have a Priest-Friend in the presence of the Father: Jesus Christ, righteous Jesus. When he served as a sacrifice for our sins, he solved the sin problem for good—not only ours, but the whole world’s.

"Solving the sin problem for good" means that Jesus' sacrifice gives us a fallback when we do sin. That's some hope, at least.

And he tops it up in 1 John 2:15-17 by telling us how to keep ourselves from living in sin. Reading the below passage shows that it takes a conscious effort. The subconscious temptation in itself doesn't count, so that "number of seconds" between the subconscious and conscious can't be something fixed for everyone. Sin is isolating ourselves from God, and there are some common triggers for it.
Don’t love the world’s ways. Don’t love the world’s goods. Love of the world squeezes out love for the Father. Practically everything that goes on in the world—wanting your own way, wanting everything for yourself, wanting to appear important—has nothing to do with the Father. It just isolates you from him. The world and all its wanting, wanting, wanting is on the way out—but whoever does what God wants is set for eternity.

Sin places that gun in our hands, we feel the weight and contemplate using it. The choice to press the trigger is always ours, but the longer you hold on to the gun and admire its beauty and grow dependent on it for your protection, the more likely you will use it on someone.[/size]

it's hard to draw the line between a subconscious reaction and a conscious one, but each person knows when they begin "dwelling" on thoughts of sin.

I reckon your entire argument relies on this sentence, and I believe it is very shaky.

It is not true that each person knows when they begin 'dwelling' on any thought, sinful or otherwise. I believe there is an infinity of continuous degrees between full awareness and unconsciousness. There are a plethora of cognitive processes going on in our mind and most of them are unconscious. Of those that we can say we're conscious of there are varying degrees of awareness.

Sometimes one can be fully focused on a thought. Sometimes you can be focusing on one thought but keep another thought in the background. Like e.g you're reading a book, but half your mind is focused on the gate because you are expecting a visitor anytime. Then sometimes a thought can be so vague that you are not really articulating it but rather it's just like a mood, a vague mood even. Other times you have a thought, a desire and you know it but you can't put your finger on it, you may just feel something is not right and until maybe later when you actually see the thing that has been lurking at the back of your mind then you'll realise that this what the thing that has been bothering you.

I've experienced suddenly being aware of sexual feelings that have been there all along. Imagine sitting a tough exam and then suddenly you realise you have a stonking hard on!! In the middle of cracking a quadratic equation. How is that possible?

Then there is the question of autonomy. If the greater part of our actions stem from the unconscious then what responsibility does the conscious mind really have in our behaviour. e.g if a man watching television finds himself sitting impatiently through an advert. He can't wait for the film to get started again. The next day he goes to the store, and absentmindedly finds himself reaching for a product he doesn't need and adding it to his cart. Until he gets home he doesn't even question why the hell he bought this stupid product. That is an example of how our decisions are often manipulated without our conscious awareness.

Take sex, Most of us experience our very first sexual feelings in a state of slumber. You're a teenager, you wake up and you've made a mess of the bedsheets. In fact, one of the reasons that convinced me that homosexuality is natural was due to a brother of mine who was a staunch born again christian. Back in the day I would wake up in the middle of the night and I'd hear him in the bathroom rebuking demons. In fact that was the first time I'd ever heard of binding demons cos I heard him saying, 'I bind you in the name of Jesus…' etc.
It was not until ten years later are grown men that he explained to me what he was going through. He used to have wet dreams and in these wet dreams he was knacking other men.
In his case, was he dwelling on the thoughts?

Take a look at a couple of these links and tell me what you think. I was actually looking for another one about evidence that our decisions are already made before we are consciously aware of it so it is not the conscious mind that makes decisions.

Contrary to what most of us would like to believe, decision-making may be a process handled to a large extent by unconscious mental activity. A team of scientists has unraveled how the brain actually unconsciously prepares our decisions. Even several seconds before we consciously make a decision its outcome can be predicted from unconscious activity in the brain.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/04/080414145705.htm

When faced with a difficult decision, it is often suggested to "sleep on it" or take a break from thinking about the decision to gain clarity. But new brain imaging research finds that the brain regions responsible for making decisions continue to be active even when the conscious brain is distracted with a different task. The research shows the brain unconsciously processes decision information in ways that lead to improved decision-making.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/02/130213092305.htm

PastorAIO:


I don't know what all that is that you're writing. I asked very simple questions. You said Satan tempted Jesus where he spotted weakness. So I asked you what weakness he was attacking when he offered him the Kingdoms. Was it megalomania? If not, just say, 'no it's not' and then tell us what the weakness was.

And also that for jumping off high place. What was the weakness? Was Jesus uncertain of God that he felt a need to test him for confirmation?

If you feel you can't answer these questions that okay too, but in that case just spare me the mentions.

I think that Jesus wasn't tempted just to comfirm He is God, but rather to prove that ''God even in the flesh form'', can still overcome all the weeknesses of the flesh, and was perfect without any sin. Thats is why the bible admonishes to be as perfect as Jesus christ was perfect even unto death. And with regard to ur first post, i can proffer a prayer solution. It's going to be a bit lenghty so i'll just creat a new topic and copy ur name. Thanks

PastorAIO:


It is good like that. My purpose in interacting with them is to encourage them to spew out the full nonsensically of their reasoning.

Hahahaha true i have said it many times, they seem to do the most damage with what they say when you debate them

PastorAIO:


What are you 'good one'-ing about? Did you understand what he was saying? What did you understand? Does what he said tally with anything you said?

Good one ko, Good one ni!

I can swear by my balls he didn't read it, its very typical.... He only saw bible quotations and then 'good one bro' popped in.

PastorAIO:


What are you 'good one'-ing about? Did you understand what he was saying? What did you understand? Does what he said tally with anything you said?

Good one ko, Good one ni!

Goodluck. Atheist

PastorAIO:

[size=3pt]I reckon your entire argument relies on this sentence, and I believe it is very shaky.

It is not true that each person knows when they begin 'dwelling' on any thought, sinful or otherwise. I believe there is an infinity of continuous degrees between full awareness and unconsciousness. There are a plethora of cognitive processes going on in our mind and most of them are unconscious. Of those that we can say we're conscious of there are varying degrees of awareness.

Sometimes one can be fully focused on a thought. Sometimes you can be focusing on one thought but keep another thought in the background. Like e.g you're reading a book, but half your mind is focused on the gate because you are expecting a visitor anytime. Then sometimes a thought can be so vague that you are not really articulating it but rather it's just like a mood, a vague mood even. Other times you have a thought, a desire and you know it but you can't put your finger on it, you may just feel something is not right and until maybe later when you actually see the thing that has been lurking at the back of your mind then you'll realise that this what the thing that has been bothering you.

I've experienced suddenly being aware of sexual feelings that have been there all along. Imagine sitting a tough exam and then suddenly you realise you have a stonking hard on!! In the middle of cracking a quadratic equation. How is that possible?

Then there is the question of autonomy. If the greater part of our actions stem from the unconscious then what responsibility does the conscious mind really have in our behaviour. e.g if a man watching television finds himself sitting impatiently through an advert. He can't wait for the film to get started again. The next day he goes to the store, and absentmindedly finds himself reaching for a product he doesn't need and adding it to his cart. Until he gets home he doesn't even question why the hell he bought this stupid product. That is an example of how our decisions are often manipulated without our conscious awareness.

Take sex, Most of us experience our very first sexual feelings in a state of slumber. You're a teenager, you wake up and you've made a mess of the bedsheets. In fact, one of the reasons that convinced me that homosexuality is natural was due to a brother of mine who was a staunch born again christian. Back in the day I would wake up in the middle of the night and I'd hear him in the bathroom rebuking demons. In fact that was the first time I'd ever heard of binding demons cos I heard him saying, 'I bind you in the name of Jesus…' etc.
It was not until ten years later are grown men that he explained to me what he was going through. He used to have wet dreams and in these wet dreams he was knacking other men.
In his case, was he dwelling on the thoughts?

Take a look at a couple of these links and tell me what you think. I was actually looking for another one about evidence that our decisions are already made before we are consciously aware of it so it is not the conscious mind that makes decisions.



https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/04/080414145705.htm



https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/02/130213092305.htm[/size]

This is meaty. I'll have to get back to you on the philosophy of states of consciousness, which happens to be one of the more difficult problems in philosophy.

For now, I will like to clarify that my whole argument is actually based on the idea that whatever we pay undue attention to may multiply in our consciousness. Temptation in itself is not the problem, but paying the wrong kind of attention to it will increase susceptibility. In terms of the question in the OP, Yes, Jesus got these same temptations but he didn't pay the sort of attention to them, that weakens his own resolve to deal with them (that is what sinning is).

E.g. If I know that a particular colleague at work already has a thing for me and with the right words I can definitely get in bed with her, the fact that the thought crosses my mind at all is not a problem - it is a temptation. But the more I think about approaching her, the exact words to say, I plan the day or time that it will happen, and plan to set it all in motion, then I have begun to sin (this falls under the "wanting your own way" part of the three major types of sin in my previous response i.e. "wanting your own way, wanting everything for yourself, wanting to appear important" i.e. "lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes and the pride of life" ).

As Christians, this is why we are charged to be careful what we think.
Prov 4:23 "Be careful what you think, because your thoughts run your life"

Edited to add: there were a number of other points you brought up, that I will likewise address in my next response.

johnydon22:


Hahahaha true i have said it many times, they seem to do the most damage with what they say when you debate them

Always better to have an opinion, know where you stand, and be able to clearly express it - even if it is constantly shifting; THAN to hide all your thoughts from scrutiny just so that you can tear down that of others.

InesQor:


Always better to have an opinion, know where you stand, and be able to clearly express it - even if it is constantly shifting; THAN to hide all your thoughts from scrutiny just so that you can tear down that of others.

I agree.. that is why discussions are always better than arguments...

People mostly argue here with invectives, emotion and clear cut fallacies all because arguments are always about 'who is right' so it doesn't matter what is true or not just twist things to suit your position or stance.

Discussions on the other hand is about 'what is right/true' and in this open mindedness is needed and the egoistic need to be right is thrown off the board.

Join our Cosmological and Philosophical forum (thread) in the science section where we discuss things related to cosmology, philosophy and other related science disciplines of the heavens.

Check my profile

Some may deny this, why do atheist hate God ? Yes, they say God does not exist, If God does not exist, shouldn’t atheists just relax and seek a good time before they become plant food? Why should it matter if people believe in God? Maby atheist are not confidence that God does not exist, and seeing Christians may remind them that they are ‘suppressing the truth’ the bible say in romans 1:

Romans 1:18
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from
heaven against all ungodliness and
unrighteousness of men, who by their
unrighteousness SUPPRESS THE TRUTH.

I was in the hospital yesterday (visitation) so I gist with many soldiers from maidugury, many of them are without hands and leg, many are blind. I just wish an atheist from nairaland are with me that yesterday, so many testimonies how God save this boys. You guys are mistaken, God is real, He exist, renounce your atheism and be save. Thank you.

malvisguy212:
Some may deny this, why do atheist hate God ? Yes, they say God does not exist, If God does not exist, shouldn’t atheists just relax and seek a good time before they become plant food? Why should it matter if people believe in God? Maby atheist are not confidence that God does not exist, and seeing Christians may remind them that they are ‘suppressing the truth’ the bible say in romans 1:

This post would be valid if christians kept God a private affair, but they don't they use it to make a public nuisance of themselves. Atheists become concerned when their day to day lives get affected for the worse by the delusion of others.

PastorAIO:


This post would be valid if christians kept God a private affair, but they don't they use it to make a public nuisance of themselves. Atheists become concerned when their day to day lives get affected for the worse by the delusion of others.

the message is very clear, preach and when they reject you, dust your feet and left.

malvisguy212:
the message is very clear, preach and when they reject you, dust your feet and left.

So why haven't you dusted your feet?

PastorAIO:


What exactly do you mean when you say 'subjected to weakness'. Do you mean that Jesus experienced what I experienced at the first flush of puberty, when I looked at our neighbours daughter and spontaneously had a glorious awakening. I rose to the occasion like I never knew I could.

hehehe

PastorAIO:


It says, I think, he was resolved to do wrong but had a change of heart.

did he resolve to do wwrong? Am not sure, did he change his mind yes. If he had resolved to disobey his parents wwithout good reason do i think he sinned? Yeah..

Ubenedictus:
did he resolve to do wwrong? Am not sure, did he change his mind yes. If he had resolved to disobey his parents wwithout good reason do i think he sinned? Yeah..

Okay, he resolved to disobey, whether that was wrong or not. and then he had a change of heart. Yet he was commended by Jesus. So do we say that he sinned or not, according to your stages.

PastorAIO:

So why haven't you dusted your feet?

I did not preach anything here.

malvisguy212:
I did not preach anything here.

You've never preached on this forum?

Okay, I can't pin point where and when but you register in my memory as a preachy member of the forum.

What about if the act of 'paying undue attention' to something is not autonomous, but rather something that the subject cannot help doing?

Like in a neurosis.

InesQor:

This is meaty. I'll have to get back to you on the philosophy of states of consciousness, which happens to be one of the more difficult problems in philosophy.

For now, I will like to clarify that my whole argument is actually based on the idea that whatever we pay undue attention to may multiply in our consciousness. Temptation in itself is not the problem, but paying the wrong kind of attention to it will increase susceptibility. In terms of the question in the OP, Yes, Jesus got these same temptations but he didn't pay the sort of attention to them, that weakens his own resolve to deal with them (that is what sinning is).

E.g. If I know that a particular colleague at work already has a thing for me and with the right words I can definitely get in bed with her, the fact that the thought crosses my mind at all is not a problem - it is a temptation. But the more I think about approaching her, the exact words to say, I plan the day or time that it will happen, and plan to set it all in motion, then I have begun to sin (this falls under the "wanting your own way" part of the three major types of sin in my previous response i.e. "wanting your own way, wanting everything for yourself, wanting to appear important" i.e. "lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes and the pride of life" ).

As Christians, this is why we are charged to be careful what we think.
Prov 4:23 "Be careful what you think, because your thoughts run your life"

Edited to add: there were a number of other points you brought up, that I will likewise address in my next response.

PastorAIO.... i salute your wisdom

Wilgrea7:
PastorAIO.... i salute your wisdom

Thank you sir.